Damage Diminishing Returns

mijjestic · August 2012

I've heard a lot about how Freeform damage has a top-end, or diminishing returns, or what have you. I know additive damage as apposed to multiplicative is affected by this - I presume nearly everything besides Role and Mental Discipline is additive. And I guess some Specializations (???). Thus Offensive Passive, Form, Offense, % adds from certain powers and Active Offenses is all additive and, eventually, minimally beneficial.

My question is: what is this top end? Is there a total % one should just not bother exceeding due to diminishing returns and what is it? If this was put somewhere obvious on the internet I haven't come across it yet.

And if it's arbitrary what is 'worth' it...opinions on what is and isn't?

Any input is welcome and appreciated. :biggrin:

williamkony · August 2012

I don't know this for a fact, but it's my belief that the percentage damage boosts from additive sources (Slotted passive, forms, Superstat damage boosts, etc.), once added together, are still just as effective at 300%+ as at 50% and below. The only reason some people complain about "diminishing returns" in this particular case is the fact that a 20% boost isn't going to take a 3000-damage attack that's already had 200% tacked on up to 3600. Instead, it'd go to 3200, given that the base is 1000.

Hopefully that makes sense. XD

So, essentially, there is no "limit" to shoot for. What you're after is simple optimization. There IS a point where stacking on more %damage is detrimental solely because it cuts into gear and powers that you could be using to boost, for example, your critical hit rate. But it's up to you to find that "golden value" in your specific build.

ashensnow · August 2012

By stacking sufficient additive boosts I eventually see a point where an X% damage boost does not provide a (base damage) * X% boost to my overall damage.

secksegai · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

I don't know this for a fact, but it's my belief that the percentage damage boosts from additive sources (Slotted passive, forms, Superstat damage boosts, etc.), once added together, are still just as effective at 300%+ as at 50% and below.

That belief would be in error.

For example, offense alone adds a minor boost to damage - but not the higher you climb in offense, the less effective it becomes, around 100 off you get around 18-20% additive, whereas 200-300 you still won't hit 40%.

If additive stacking were more effective, you'd see it a lot more commonplace. But when you consider that the individual sources alone hit diminishing returns, then in the cryptic math process of adding all those bonuses together is also hit by diminishing returns, you get a lot less bang for your buck so to speak.

konru2 · August 2012

This is something I have tested for on the public test server.

I have created a 'Fist' archetype character on PTS, set his level to 40, given him heirloom gear and talents for 320 Dex, 178 Str, & 184 Rec, Way of the Warrior rank 3, 8 stack of form by working up on the training dummy, and I can read Open Palm Strike rank 3 as doing 5834 damage.

Recreating the same character as Freeform, same 320 Dex, 178 Str, & 184 Rec, Way of the Warrior Rank 3, and 8 stack of form by working up on the training dummy, and rank 3 of Open Palm Strike now reads 3905.

I used to believe that diminishing returns on damage was a myth. But unfortunately, the evidence is all too real. Freeform heroes do suffer reduced damage compared to archetypes. The whole mess is starting to really irritate me, too.

As for the original question: I don't really know where the target is set at. But the penalty is about 32% with my full gear and seems to drop to 25% if I take all the gear off. (I only bought one heirloom set, so I had to share with my account bank.) So it seems to be a real diminishing return mechanic, but I don't really see it as being avoidable.

neojin777 · August 2012

Play silver AT characters instead of failform. FF is the new AT since everybody is using the same build anyway. Luckily since co went f2p the development is gonna be focused on nothing but f2p/AT content. The few ff left acting all pro and stuff, havn't realized yet in which direction this game is heading and that they are basically just "unwanted" leftovers of long forgotten times.

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady.

i hope this helped x)

beldin · August 2012

neojin777 wrote: »

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady.

Lol .. Freeform was the original game, and one of the best thigs the game has beside
the Costume Designer. They should never have started with the AT crap and instead
better produced new content that they could sell to the F2P players.

piro2gen · August 2012

neojin777 wrote: »

...

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady...

The fact that Freeform and Archtypes play by different rules is what is killing the game.

If you are playing football, you kinda expect that the other team is also playing football and not basketball. I mean its a basic things about game. It has 'rule' and all follow the same rule.

This 'dual rules' makes the game look silly, stupid, amateurish.

FF is one things that makes Champions different. Remove this and you end up with <insert some other game> clone.

AT's have to go.

xamikaze01 · August 2012

neojin777 wrote: »

Play silver AT characters instead of failform. FF is the new AT since everybody is using the same build anyway. Luckily since co went f2p the development is gonna be focused on nothing but f2p/AT content. The few ff left acting all pro and stuff, havn't realized yet in which direction this game is heading and that they are basically just "unwanted" leftovers of long forgotten times.

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady.

i hope this helped x)

I don't recall having seeing this area called the PVP section. Freeforms have nothing to do with the related balance issues in this game. And actualy, I find your comment pretty disrespectfull for Gold players. Those you call acting like pro and stuff are the players that have given the most out of this game by paying the compagny (wich doesn't run free) and beeing actively sugesting ways to improve the game on those forums. And as a costumer service you should never leave those people behind because it is just plain bad for business and the reputation of your compagny.

You also talk about exploits with powers and Builds, but you don't understand the game is balance around having a majority of builds capable to run trough 99% of the content alone, thats why PVE content is so easy for some, and it never turned around the Archetypes. Also PVP is balanced around FF Vs FF, while it is also balanced around Archetypes Vs Archetypes (Thats why FF can't join Archetype PVP games), so complaining about a Freeform beating an Archetypes in a duel is just showing how wrong you are on the conception of this game.

If you hope having helped someone with your post, you should think again...

oniganon · August 2012

I can't give exact numbers... But I can tell you that a DPSer with an Offensive Passive, their related damage stat as a SS, 200+ Offense and the appropriate damage Form (Conc for ranged, MA/Enrage for melee) is very much pushing into the diminishing returns realm.

I was playing around on PTS and found that with Ego SS, Conc, 250 Offense and Cyber secondaries, the difference between Fiery Form Rank 1 and Rank 3 at that point was only like 3-5%. Conc itself only made a difference of around 10% at full stack.

IMO this means that it's not really worth it to push absolutely everything towards DPS if it means you're sacrificing a lot of survivability and/or energy efficiency to get there. In the example I used, those advantage points might be better spent ranking up a Block or a Heal instead of Fiery Form. Or the Cyber secondaries could be switched to Armadillo secondaries. Or Ego SS could be switched out for something else, like Con. Or I could switch from using Guardian to a more defensive specialisation like Sentry. Any one of these changes could be made without too much of a sacrifice in damage, though changing more than one will obviously add up.

beastmag · August 2012

I am going to agree with oniganon. based on my observations of pve play.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

I've seen enough in pvp play, and a bit in my pve experiments in the new meta, to notice there are a few glaring exceptions. Crits being a big one. I've thrown a 22k cascade, and I've heard stories of people doing more and pulling 20 reliably.

They really do seem to have taken the nerf bat to freeform a bit.

Neo, what you fail to notice (at least, the first of many things, I assume) is that this dps nerf comes with the ability to build a character that does good dps, can take a hit, and self heal. My ranged dps character tanks. Tell me, what ranged dps archetype can hold an epic boss again? I'll wait, if it takes you a while to come up with an answer.

OP? definitely look to versatility rather than pure raw number dumping. As well as what was mentioned, it's a freeform's strongest skill anyway.

ashensnow · August 2012

chalupaoffury wrote: »

I've seen enough in pvp play, and a bit in my pve experiments in the new meta, to notice there are a few glaring exceptions. Crits being a big one. I've thrown a 22k cascade, and I've heard stories of people doing more and pulling 20 reliably.

They really do seem to have taken the nerf bat to freeform a bit.

Neo, what you fail to notice (at least, the first of many things, I assume) is that this dps nerf comes with the ability to build a character that does good dps, can take a hit, and self heal. My ranged dps character tanks. Tell me, what ranged dps archetype can hold an epic boss again? I'll wait, if it takes you a while to come up with an answer.

OP? definitely look to versatility rather than pure raw number dumping. As well as what was mentioned, it's a freeform's strongest skill anyway.

There has not been a DPS nerf. The diminishing returns model on additive damage buffs has been here all along.

You are correct about multiplicative buffs such as critical hits though. They are in a different layer of damage calculation and are not figured into the additive damage diminishing returns model.

I do not know if multiplicative buffs such as crits lack a diminishing returns model of their own, or if its just not normally feasible to reach it. Keep in mind that people are starting to see significant diminishing returns on their additive buffs when they reach very high numbers:

60+% from combined SS
20+% from Melee or Ranged stat (ego or str).
88+% from 8 stacks of toggle buff
60+% from offensive passive.

Its entirely possible that multiplicative buffs have a DR model of their own in their damage layer but we've never seen it because you just dont see 228% worth of multiplicative buffs as you do in the example I gave of additive buffs.

Honestly if you are running high end SS bonuses, high end Toggle stack percentages, and such, an offensive passive is likely not giving you much damage at all. The primary reason to even take an offensive passive under such circumstances at all is if you intend to run in an offensive role (for its multiplicative damage boost) and are restricted to an offensive passive in such a role.

It is for the above reason that a passive such as Quarry, now that the game includes more additive buffs, and higher percentages of such, than ever before, is so very amazing for even builds that dont do physical damage. You get dodge, avoidance, INT, and EGO out of it for a loss in total real damage, compared to an offensive passive that buffs your specific damage type, as little as 3%.

As an example, according to wiki R3 Two Gun Mojo has a base damage (no SS, passives, etc) of 209 per tick. Additive damage buffs are applied to this. At 1 stack of Concentration, with my passive, role, SS, etc added in, my pistol using munitions toon does 711 damage per tick. At 8 stacks (14% each) he does 816 damage per tick. That is a 98% additive increase in buffs for an increase that is only approximately 50% of my base damage. Since some of that 105 damage increase is actually a function of the role based multiplicative damage buff I am really only getting something like a 40% of base damage increase out of a buff that, without diminishing returns, would be providing a 98% of base damage increase.

DR is HUGE, but you can build to minimize its impact on your character.

beldin · August 2012

ashensnow wrote: »

Its entirely possible that multiplicative buffs have a DR model of their own in their damage layer but we've never seen it because you just dont see 228% worth of multiplicative buffs as you do in the example I gave of additive buffs.

If we talk about crit, then the DR happens in the form of the amount of extra crit-rate
you get from DEX or +crit gear.

Else there is only MD left, and that has just a fixed number per rank, so not much to stack here.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

ashensnow wrote: »

There has not been a DPS nerf. The diminishing returns model on additive damage buffs has been here all along.

You're right, I'm more talking about the huge boost ats get to dps. It *feels* like a nerf to me, because I'm from before free to play. I've always known ats get higher hp, more dps, etc... But I've never really done the number crunching. After a bit of thought, however? Highest dps on bloodmoon I ever saw anyone consistently pull off was, oddly enough, a Blade. We're not gonna mention how many healers he had to carry around to prop him up so he didn't get squished like a particularly delicious bug, but that's another story.

<snip>
I do not know if multiplicative buffs such as crits lack a diminishing returns model of their own, or if its just not normally feasible to reach it. Keep in mind that people are starting to see significant diminishing returns on their additive buffs when they reach very high numbers:

Not that I'm aware of. I know crit severity, if it does have diminishing returns, doesn't have much. Current pvp meta is, for a lot of people, about 200+ crit sev and the highest crit chance possible. I know that, from my own experience, my highest dps 40s all have high crits in common. The difference even between 110 and 150 severity for a cascade easily ends up being 8k damage on a full charge, since I've got 2 cascading 40s with similar powers and slightly different loadouts.

<snip>
Honestly if you are running high end SS bonuses, high end Toggle stack percentages, and such, an offensive passive is likely not giving you much damage at all. The primary reason to even take an offensive passive under such circumstances at all is if you intend to run in an offensive role (for its multiplicative damage boost) and are restricted to an offensive passive in such a role.

It is for the above reason that a passive such as Quarry, now that the game includes more additive buffs, and higher percentages of such, than ever before, is so very amazing for even builds that dont do physical damage. You get dodge, avoidance, INT, and EGO out of it for a loss in total real damage, compared to an offensive passive that buffs your specific damage type, as little as 3%.

Makes sense. Hence why leveling up powers like concentration does so little. I made the mistake of ranking concentration to 3 with one of my offensive spikers. That extra damage, by this point, is a joke. It almost makes more sense to keep it at 1 so you can at least get the energy boost from when it gains a stack. Your point about quarry (and I'd like to add, targeting computer) 's part of why fire is so lackluster overall right now. By the time you hit 25, your passive is just for show.

As an example, according to wiki R3 Two Gun Mojo has a base damage (no SS, passives, etc) of 209 per tick. Additive damage buffs are applied to this. At 1 stack of Concentration, with my passive, role, SS, etc added in, my pistol using munitions toon does 711 damage per tick. At 8 stacks (14% each) he does 816 damage per tick. That is a 98% additive increase in buffs for an increase that is only approximately 50% of my base damage. Since some of that 105 damage increase is actually a function of the role based multiplicative damage buff I am really only getting something like a 40% of base damage increase out of a buff that, without diminishing returns, would be providing a 98% of base damage increase.

True story. Also, it's why I tend to advocate *not* taking offensive clickies on offensive characters. The only exceptions I can think of to this are ego surge+adv, and maybe electric sheath+adv. Again, though, it falls in that "if you're freeform, build for versatility" thing.

Great post, all around. Very good points. I'll add a little bit more on numbers for multiplicative damage, though. My plasma beam without a crit, in an offensive role, averages about 80 per tick, or 800 dps. Without a passive, it throws like 45 in guardian. I'm past soft cap on my super stats, percentage wise, although only at level 20. with 103% severity, when the crits start coming (and that power's a good benchmark, since it tends to crit in a huge block) the damage ramps up to about 270 a tick, on average, or 2700 dps. Add in a chest beam debuff and it easily tops 300.

Take that for what you will.

wraithshadow13 · August 2012

What's bothers me is the fact that I've come across players, for example munitions, that crit easily for around 10k. My best crits were 7k tops. We checked stats and gear and all around I had the higher numbers, yet he was still out dosing me. All because I didn't go AT. That's we're I have the issue. I can understand the potential issues of the freedom build but at the same time it shouldnt punish people that have characters before f2p went into place. My characters shouldn't automatically be made inferior because they're from before the ATs arrived. Even my newer characters have to suffer just because I don't want to level powers the way cryptic thinks it should be done. Why is it that the free form is being limited in such a terrible way?

championshewolf · August 2012

mijjestic wrote: »

I've heard a lot about how Freeform damage has a top-end, or diminishing returns, or what have you. I know additive damage as apposed to multiplicative is affected by this - I presume nearly everything besides Role and Mental Discipline is additive. And I guess some Specializations (???). Thus Offensive Passive, Form, Offense, % adds from certain powers and Active Offenses is all additive and, eventually, minimally beneficial.

My question is: what is this top end? Is there a total % one should just not bother exceeding due to diminishing returns and what is it? If this was put somewhere obvious on the internet I haven't come across it yet.

And if it's arbitrary what is 'worth' it...opinions on what is and isn't?

Any input is welcome and appreciated. :biggrin:

No one has actually hit diminishing returns, ATs have an actual damage boost, not an actual DR removal. Most people look at the damage bonuses and assume they multiply the number that is present. This is false, it actually multiplies against the powers base damage. So, if for instance, the power does 316 damage base, that 30% bonus is not against the 790 damage it says it does currently but against the 316 it does at base. Thus it is an additive bonus.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

Agreed, Wraith. 's why I love this forum, because we're sorting out ways to bypass it. It'll really suck for those bloodmoon events, though, because ats will consistently top the charts. Personally? My plan is to keep trying to figure out how to milk the system to obtain the best combination of bonuses to do the most damage. One thing freeform does have going for it is the sheer number of ways we have to pull off the higher damage. But, to be fair, the highest damage I've ever seen in one hit (40k) came from a freeform. It is possible, it just takes some finesse.

I feel like they should at least pull a bit off of that soft cap, though. Those stupid-high numbers really only exist for the top optimizers. I know pulling off a 24k cascade actually made me jump up and grab my fiancee to show off, and that was a fluke that involved ego surge and 2 people that had aura of primal majesty.

I feel like the cap is in place specifically because of that top end of building. But you can't limit everyone in game because of the abilities of a certain subset of players. No matter what the system, you'll always have min/maxers who can seriously break it.

championshewolf · August 2012

After looking at it, I think the ATs are double dipping or getting an increase somewhere they shouldn't be. Because that's nearly a 60% damage difference. DR wouldn't even account for that, so no, it's not DR. Running tests right now to figure out if it's they have a different multiplier for stat bonuses and such or if it might be solid double dipping.

championshewolf · August 2012

After testing and doing math and stuff, I have found that the ATs are in fact double dipping their additive damage stat bonus.

ashensnow · August 2012

championshewolf wrote: »

After looking at it, I think the ATs are double dipping or getting an increase somewhere they shouldn't be. Because that's nearly a 60% damage difference. DR wouldn't even account for that, so no, it's not DR. Running tests right now to figure out if it's they have a different multiplier for stat bonuses and such or if it might be solid double dipping.

Remember that additive bonuses are then multiplied by multiplicative bonuses. When AME and others looked at this situation months ago they commented that it was most likely an issue with DR on ATs.

gerberatetra · August 2012

championshewolf wrote: »

After testing and doing math and stuff, I have found that the ATs are in fact double dipping their additive damage stat bonus.

That is a bug.. at least that better be a bug

chalupaoffury · August 2012

Wait, so it's a bug?

This is my surprised face.

mijjestic · August 2012

Digging the commentary and seeing everyone's opinions here. I guess without access to the hard numbers for this we have to go with ballpark assumption + individual testing. Of course this makes discussion on the issue that much more productive!

chalupaoffury wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of. I know crit severity, if it does have diminishing returns, doesn't have much. Current pvp meta is, for a lot of people, about 200+ crit sev and the highest crit chance possible.

:eek:

...200+ crit severity...that sounds dreamy...wouldn't have thought it possible. Is that Dex and overstatting secondary SS's for the + from the spec?

ashensnow · August 2012

mijjestic wrote: »

Digging the commentary and seeing everyone's opinions here. I guess without access to the hard numbers for this we have to go with ballpark assumption + individual testing. Of course this makes discussion on the issue that much more productive!

:eek:

...200+ crit severity...that sounds dreamy...wouldn't have thought it possible. Is that Dex and overstatting secondary SS's for the + from the spec?

Doesn't Imbue's crit severity stack with existing base severity or something of that sort ? Ive not looked any time recently.

mijjestic · August 2012

ashensnow wrote: »

Doesn't Imbue's crit severity stack with existing base severity or something of that sort ? Ive not looked any time recently.

...

I might just test that!

chalupaoffury · August 2012

Ashen: sorta. It replaces your base, ignores your gear, but seems to take into account anything else you've stacked on top of it. At least, that's really *really* what it looks like when I bring up my sheet and blow the clicky. I'd appreciate it if someone else can give a more solid answer, tho, because my testing is less than complete. I'll see if I can pop on a bit later and unslot everything then give it a shot, see what my numbers look like.

Mijj? Spec trees, and gear. It's actually pretty easy to do 150 off the bat with just speccing properly. Ego as a primary can boost that to even higher numbers, with follow through, but at the cost of crit chance. Pumping in an extra 50 with gear isn't impossible at all. I know at least 2 people that are in the 230 range, and I'm personally aiming at about 200.

mijjestic · August 2012

Ah crit severity on gear, duh. :rolleyes:@self (I have crit chance stacked instead)

championshewolf · August 2012

ashensnow wrote: »

Remember that additive bonuses are then multiplied by multiplicative bonuses. When AME and others looked at this situation months ago they commented that it was most likely an issue with DR on ATs.

DR would not account for a nearly 60% damage difference in the above mentioned powers. Also, after doing the math and comparing, the math shows it is double dipping the ADDITIVE damage bonus. After doubling the additive bonus, using the fist above as an example, with an FF then multiplying it by the role bonus the damage came out equal.

oniganon · August 2012

Personally, I'm okay with ATs being slightly superior DPSers. It's not like they can tank or heal anything remotely like a Freeform can, and the DPS ATs have nothing like the survivability of their Freeform equivalents. Gotta have something going for them.

championshewolf · August 2012

Still doing more tests.

gerberatetra · August 2012

oniganon wrote: »

Personally, I'm okay with ATs being slightly superior DPSers. It's not like they can tank or heal anything remotely like a Freeform can, and the DPS ATs have nothing like the survivability of their Freeform equivalents. Gotta have something going for them.

Hmm.. how about being free? or at least free to play?

A game imbalance of straight numbers would be unfair if it was on the Freeform side

mainscrizz · August 2012

gerberatetra wrote: »

Hmm.. how about being free? or at least free to play?

A game imbalance of straight numbers would be unfair if it was on the Freeform side

There are a lot of ATs that aren't free.

xD

We should be requesting for the DRs to be removed for everyone, not nerfing.

gerberatetra · August 2012

mainscrizz wrote: »

There are a lot of ATs that aren't free.
xD

We should be requesting for the DRs to be removed for everyone, not nerfing.

And thus I said... "or at least free to play"

As in no sub needed.

But As long as we're all on a level Damage track here.

mijjestic · August 2012

I honestly don't care if AT's do more damage either. I've never really been in favor of trashing and nerfing stuff that's already reached a reasonable equilibrium in the game (of course, what 'exploits' deserve it and not is wholly arbitrary), and ultimately freeforms don't need MORE flippin damage. I'd say if anything our opponents in PvE need boosts to challenge so roasting them twice as fast is extremely uninteresting to me.

And correct me if I'm wrong but the only way to exceed what a Freeform can do via AT is to be ridiculously squishy right? Not to mention you have squat for choices to further multiply it. If freeform got the boost it'd skyrocket through the roof probably due to more tools of 'abuse', as it were.

chalupaoffury wrote: »

Ashen: sorta. It replaces your base, ignores your gear, but seems to take into account anything else you've stacked on top of it. At least, that's really *really* what it looks like when I bring up my sheet and blow the clicky. I'd appreciate it if someone else can give a more solid answer, tho, because my testing is less than complete. I'll see if I can pop on a bit later and unslot everything then give it a shot, see what my numbers look like.

Well, I tested Imbue myself fully ranked and it was sub par in crit severity compared to my base of 115%. In displayed results. In actual effect on dummies it was also somewhat less.

As far as I can tell it replaces the value fully. Maybe has hidden adds. *shrugglz*

Unknown · August 2012

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Unknown · August 2012

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theravenforce · August 2012

konru2 wrote: »

This is something I have tested for on the public test server.

I have created a 'Fist' archetype character on PTS, set his level to 40, given him heirloom gear and talents for 320 Dex, 178 Str, & 184 Rec, Way of the Warrior rank 3, 8 stack of form by working up on the training dummy, and I can read Open Palm Strike rank 3 as doing 5834 damage.

Recreating the same character as Freeform, same 320 Dex, 178 Str, & 184 Rec, Way of the Warrior Rank 3, and 8 stack of form by working up on the training dummy, and rank 3 of Open Palm Strike now reads 3905.

I used to believe that diminishing returns on damage was a myth. But unfortunately, the evidence is all too real. Freeform heroes do suffer reduced damage compared to archetypes. The whole mess is starting to really irritate me, too.

As for the original question: I don't really know where the target is set at. But the penalty is about 32% with my full gear and seems to drop to 25% if I take all the gear off. (I only bought one heirloom set, so I had to share with my account bank.) So it seems to be a real diminishing return mechanic, but I don't really see it as being avoidable.

Well I have a Mind AT who definately is suffering from something worse than the resonating aftermath of the telepathy and CC nerf. I push my PRE stat above 350 and my Ego about 220 and END above 150 and my holds, damage and aura are still crappy.

theravenforce · August 2012

mijjestic wrote: »

I honestly don't care if AT's do more damage either. I've never really been in favor of trashing and nerfing stuff that's already reached a reasonable equilibrium in the game (of course, what 'exploits' deserve it and not is wholly arbitrary), and ultimately freeforms don't need MORE flippin damage. I'd say if anything our opponents in PvE need boosts to challenge so roasting them twice as fast is extremely uninteresting to me.

And correct me if I'm wrong but the only way to exceed what a Freeform can do via AT is to be ridiculously squishy right? Not to mention you have squat for choices to further multiply it. If freeform got the boost it'd skyrocket through the roof probably due to more tools of 'abuse', as it were.

Well, I tested Imbue myself fully ranked and it was sub par in crit severity compared to my base of 115%. In displayed results. In actual effect on dummies it was also somewhat less.

As far as I can tell it replaces the value fully. Maybe has hidden adds. *shrugglz*

Yup, the pink is truth. If I want high damage like an FF I have to become uber squishy for some builds.

beastmag · August 2012

i will put it another way - to be more clear.

All things being equal, offensive passive +offensive stance most certainly does not equal +40% damage over balanced stance +defensive passive. From what I've seen, maybe not even +15%.

theapygoos · August 2012

neojin777 wrote: »

Play silver AT characters instead of failform. FF is the new AT since everybody is using the same build anyway. Luckily since co went f2p the development is gonna be focused on nothing but f2p/AT content. The few ff left acting all pro and stuff, havn't realized yet in which direction this game is heading and that they are basically just "unwanted" leftovers of long forgotten times.

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady.

i hope this helped x)

just stop crying and go gold

ashensnow · August 2012

beastmag wrote: »

i will put it another way - to be more clear.

All things being equal, offensive passive +offensive stance most certainly does not equal +40% damage over balanced stance +defensive passive. From what I've seen, maybe not even +15%.

The offensive stance role bonus is multiplicative and greater than that 15%. You may want to double check your numbers because multiplicative buffs are applied at the end of damage calculation and so the offensive spec will always do at least as much more damage as his role bonus compared to non offensive characters.

galacticcowbot · August 2012

neojin777 wrote: »

Play silver AT characters instead of failform. FF is the new AT since everybody is using the same build anyway. Luckily since co went f2p the development is gonna be focused on nothing but f2p/AT content. The few ff left acting all pro and stuff, havn't realized yet in which direction this game is heading and that they are basically just "unwanted" leftovers of long forgotten times.

Anyways, the difference between AT and FF damage should be even bigger, considering the bugged/OP builds that are possible to use/abuse playing as a FF. FF are killing the game, slowly but steady.

i hope this helped x)

Lol, I cant figure out if this is a troll or FF envy.

gonzolo4584 · August 2012

yeah, sounds like a weeny who gets roasted during duels by "uber l33t" FF toons. You realize guy that you actually have to know how to build a FF in the first place for it to be above par. You can just as easily gimp your build.

leruka · August 2012

I noticed this as well, the best way to get around the DR is to lower resistance of the mobs and debuffs. That is the reason right now Claws, and Ego Blades are probably the best melee in the game. None of my Freeforms are uber powerful though since I'm an offense only type of guy who only bother with DEX, INT, EGO, and STR for super stats.

gonzolo4584 · August 2012

leruka wrote: »

I noticed this as well, the best way to get around the DR is to lower resistance of the mobs and debuffs. That is the reason right now Claws, and Ego Blades are probably the best melee in the game. None of my Freeforms are uber powerful though since I'm an offense only type of guy who only bother with DEX, INT, EGO, and STR for super stats.

Which is why power armor is a pretty nifty team member to have. A good portion of their skills lower resist.

isometry · August 2012

Add up all your additive bonuses from forms, passives, +offense, superstats, etc. Call that your NB ("nominal bonus"). Then the actual bonus that multiplies your base damage is something like this:

actual bonus = NB / (1 + NB/1400%)

If you use this formula, keep in mind that there is a lot of roundoff error that goes into calculating your nominal bonus (each reported bonus could be rounded up or down by 0.5%). This roundoff error also effected my calculations in determining the cap of 1400%, it could be anywhere in the range 1350% - 1450%. This number could be better nailed down if I cared more.

These calculations were done last week. Interestingly, archetypes more closely fit a formula that has less diminishing returns:

actual bonus = NB / (1 + (NB/1400%)^2)

Maybe it is a bug, or maybe it is intentional. There is no doubt that ATs have less diminishing returns on additive damage bonuses than freeforms do.

As a point of discussion, the 1400% cap used to be lower, it used to be 900%. I have a feeling this was changed during On Alert, or during the forms pass that came soon afterwards. If you think about it, raising the cap on damage bonuses is a subtle way of nerfing AoPM relative to other passives.

ashensnow · September 2012

isometry wrote: »

Add up all your additive bonuses from forms, passives, +offense, superstats, etc. Call that your NB ("nominal bonus"). Then the actual bonus that multiplies your base damage is something like this:

actual bonus = NB / (1 + NB/1400%)

If you use this formula, keep in mind that there is a lot of roundoff error that goes into calculating your nominal bonus (each reported bonus could be rounded up or down by 0.5%). This roundoff error also effected my calculations in determining the cap of 1400%, it could be anywhere in the range 1350% - 1450%. This number could be better nailed down if I cared more.

These calculations were done last week. Interestingly, archetypes more closely fit a formula that has less diminishing returns:

actual bonus = NB / (1 + (NB/1400%)^2)

Maybe it is a bug, or maybe it is intentional. There is no doubt that ATs have less diminishing returns on additive damage bonuses than freeforms do.

As a point of discussion, the 1400% cap used to be lower, it used to be 900%. I have a feeling this was changed during On Alert, or during the forms pass that came soon afterwards. If you think about it, raising the cap on damage bonuses is a subtle way of nerfing AoPM relative to other passives.

During your absence the reduced (or lack of) additive damage DR on AT's was commented on by Ame as most likely a bug that he would have to look into at some point.

somebob · September 2012

ashensnow wrote: »

During your absence the reduced (or lack of) additive damage DR on AT's was commented on by Ame as most likely a bug that he would have to look into at some point.

Which was what, 6 months ago?

Damage Diminishing Returns

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