Damage doling out threat, or Defensive Combo rank2/CC advantage.

williamkony · August 2012

I read elsewhere that, before the threat generation boosts given by stats in Tank role, damage will give 1 Threat per 1 Damage dealt. Is that true? And if that's the case, wouldn't it generally be better to rank up Defensive Combo than to put Crippling Challenge on it? I'm sure you can surpass 400 extra damage per hit with an extra rank in the power quite easily.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

DC already throws out a stupid amount of threat. The only real bonus you'll get out of cc, as far as I'm concerned, on that power? The block disable. I feel like you're pretty much always better off, as a tank, putting challenging strikes on an aoe for extra threat.

But, I'm also fairly certain that protector role also greatly increases the general amount of threat you put out. So it goes to follow that CC's threat will get a boost, too. I dunno what the actual numbers are, anymore, tho. I haven't seen the math since they redid roles.

secksegai · August 2012

To give you an example of practical application,

My behemoth runs r2/cc def combo, and it almost always takes another well-built be or FF tank to steal threat. Extreme damage can take it, but those builds are at the very end of the spectrum.

williamkony · August 2012

chalupaoffury wrote: »

DC already throws out a stupid amount of threat. The only real bonus you'll get out of cc, as far as I'm concerned, on that power? The block disable. I feel like you're pretty much always better off, as a tank, putting challenging strikes on an aoe for extra threat.

But, I'm also fairly certain that protector role also greatly increases the general amount of threat you put out. So it goes to follow that CC's threat will get a boost, too. I dunno what the actual numbers are, anymore, tho. I haven't seen the math since they redid roles.

And if the boost is the same across the board for pure threat generation and damage-driven threat generation, then the boost given to Crippling Challenge's 400 threat would be the same as the boost given to dealing an extra 400 damage.

That's assuming that one damage does indeed equal one threat, as far as core mechanics go.

secksegai wrote: »

To give you an example of practical application,

My behemoth runs r2/cc def combo, and it almost always takes another well-built be or FF tank to steal threat. Extreme damage can take it, but those builds are at the very end of the spectrum.

Right, but would you be able to keep that threat on you the same amount if you were using Rank 3 instead of CC, thus freeing up one Advantage Point? That's what I'm trying to figure out, here. XD How often does the immediate "look at me for four seconds" effect help you maintain threat? When not considering PvP, that's really the only thing I can think of that puts it above pure damage.

agentnx5 · August 2012

In other words, you're running short on advantage points and are wondering if you can just get by with Defensive combo R2 or R3 and a Challenging Strikes enhanced AoE, yes?

Well if so, you're going to want test it out really with another tank friend of yours. It's not really black & white.

Also you should remove your slotted passive (and you allies if they are auras). It can skew results if you have other interacting varibles. Establish a baseline control, the try altering one varible at a time. Test more than once each to be more certain.

My hypothesis is that you can probably do ok without Crippling Challenge and still hold sufficient threat in PvE, but you're going to loose the ability to immediately grab the attention of the foe in question in the seconds where it matters (because the other teammate has already gotten the enemy's attention)

Make sense?

williamkony · August 2012

agentnx5 wrote: »

In other words, you're running short on advantage points and are wondering if you can just get by with Defensive combo R2 or R3 and a Challenging Strikes enhanced AoE, yes?

Well if so, you're going to want test it out really with another tank friend of yours. It's not really black & white.

Also you should remove your slotted passive (and you allies if they are auras). It can skew results if you have other interacting varibles. Establish a baseline control, the try altering one varible at a time. Test more than once each to be more certain.

My hypothesis is that you can probably do ok without Crippling Challenge and still hold sufficient threat in PvE, but you're going to loose the ability to immediately grab the attention of the foe in question in the seconds where it matters (because the other teammate has already gotten the enemy's attention)

Make sense?

Yeah, makes sense. Unfortunately, I can't do any testing right now due to having reverted back to Silver. I'm currently saving up Zen for a Freeform slot, and want to make sure this build works. XD Unfortunately, a number of powers hinge on the results of this testing, so I'd like to get the info before committing myself to the build, if possible.

I'll be able to take either Rank 2 or Crippling Challenge, won't be able to bring it to Rank 3. Not that I really have any good use for that extra Advantage Point except for Travel Powers, but-...

Actually, it'd be kinda nice if I could get away with rank 1 Defensive Combo, used solely to keep Defiance stacks going, and use my damage ability (Dragon's Claws) to keep threat, instead. I had a very similar build before Gold Status lapsed, and was able to keep the enemy's attention on me just with Dragon's Claws when in my small circle of friends, but I'm not sure if I could keep threat when going up against other tanks. It's possible that Dragon's Claws may outdo Defensive Combo in threat just on damage alone, though, negating the need to put any Advantage Points into the ability at all.

secksegai · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Yeah, makes sense. Unfortunately, I can't do any testing right now due to having reverted back to Silver. I'm currently saving up Zen for a Freeform slot, and want to make sure this build works. XD Unfortunately, a number of powers hinge on the results of this testing, so I'd like to get the info before committing myself to the build, if possible.

I'll be able to take either Rank 2 or Crippling Challenge, won't be able to bring it to Rank 3. Not that I really have any good use for that extra Advantage Point except for Travel Powers, but-...

If you take Def combo, you should automatically be running CC in it - since you don't take that power for damage, its strictly a threat gen. I prefer CC/r2, but you can get by mostly with just CC.

You'll also want a CC power regardless - there are certain bosses where CC will make things far easier, like Viper X or Baron.

secksegai · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Right, but would you be able to keep that threat on you the same amount if you were using Rank 3 instead of CC, thus freeing up one Advantage Point? That's what I'm trying to figure out, here. XD How often does the immediate "look at me for four seconds" effect help you maintain threat?

And just to clarify, you don't take CC just for the taunt - its the block breaker and extra threat it adds to each attack - it adds more threat than r3 as far as I know since if I remember correctly something like 400 threat at level 40 each CC adds on

williamkony · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

If you take Def combo, you should automatically be running CC in it - since you don't take that power for damage, its strictly a threat gen. I prefer CC/r2, but you can get by mostly with just CC.

You'll also want a CC power regardless - there are certain bosses where CC will make things far easier, like Viper X or Baron.

secksegai wrote: »

And just to clarify, you don't take CC just for the taunt - its the block breaker and extra threat it adds to each attack - it adds more threat than r3 as far as I know since if I remember correctly something like 400 threat at level 40 each CC adds on

I'm asking, though, whether the threat generated by damage is higher than the straight-up threat offered by Crippling Challenge. As I said, I'd seen someone mention that 1 point of damage equals 1 point of threat. If that's the case, plugging in one rank of Defensive Combo is likely to surpass 400 extra damage, and then there's the built-in threat generation increasing as well.

I'm likely going to be taking Crippling Challenge for the taunt and damage reduction, and I doubt the damage I could put out with an extra rank would be THAT much more than 400. I don't really have a use for the block-negation, but the other functions are enough. That said, I'd still like to figure out if the 1:1 ratio on damage/threat is true, just for knowledge's sake.

monaahiru · August 2012

Sometime I keep taking aggro without any CC even we have Tank on team.
It's fate of Pesty-Epidemic spammer. >.<

konru2 · August 2012

Just what kind of stats are you running?

I'm showing Rank 2 of Defensive Combo on my hybrid as doing 3 hits of 299, 343, and 705. At rank 3, it shows me 359, 411, and 846. So unless my trusty calculator is broken, that is 50-141 extra damage for rank 3. That's nowhere even close to 400 extra threat per strike of Crippling Challenge. Even with the extra threat of defensive combo itself going form 350 to 420 from rank 2 to rank 3, 141 + 70 is still less than 400.

Anyway...

Defensive combo is one of those powers you can usually get away with bringing to rank 3 instead of tacking crippling challenge on. It applies the extra threat of crippling challenge even without the advantage. So as long as Baron Cimitiere isn't your target, your average team should be fine. Any non-might tank usually has to be content with damage + 400 threat from crippling challenge, so damage + 420 threat from Defensive Combo is certainly good enough. But damage + 750 from both Defensive Combo and Crippling Challenge can make it much easier to do your job when teamed up with some of the more extreme freeform heroes.

It's up to you.

williamkony · August 2012

konru2 wrote: »

Just what kind of stats are you running?

I'm showing Rank 2 of Defensive Combo on my hybrid as doing 3 hits of 299, 343, and 705. At rank 3, it shows me 359, 411, and 846. So unless my trusty calculator is broken, that is 50-141 extra damage for rank 3. That's nowhere even close to 400 extra threat per strike of Crippling Challenge. Even with the extra threat of defensive combo itself going form 350 to 420 from rank 2 to rank 3, 141 + 70 is still less than 400.

Anyway...

Defensive combo is one of those powers you can usually get away with bringing to rank 3 instead of tacking crippling challenge on. It applies the extra threat of crippling challenge even without the advantage. So as long as Baron Cimitiere isn't your target, your average team should be fine. Any non-might tank usually has to be content with damage + 400 threat from crippling challenge, so damage + 420 threat from Defensive Combo is certainly good enough. But damage + 750 from both Defensive Combo and Crippling Challenge can make it much easier to do your job when teamed up with some of the more extreme freeform heroes.

It's up to you.

What kind of stats am I running? Not as good as I thought, apparently!

I really should have calculated it outright. I was vastly overestimating the damage Defensive Combo would be putting out. It's all calculated now, though, at least based on more accurate stat estimates, and what I've found is...

Over 1.5 seconds, Dragon's Claws will deal out an average of 3839.9328 threat. Defensive Combo R1 with Crippling Challenge will do 3953.0752 threat in the same time. Before Tank role's increased threat generation. This is assuming both powers can be spammed exactly 1.5 seconds apart; I'm not sure if the actual attack animations cause any sort of gap. If so, I would mostly expect Dragon's Claws' output to drop.

Regardless, however, it's not that big a boost for one power slot and three advantage points. What I'd mostly be gaining is the taunt, damage debuff, and a way to keep Defiance going when the enemy refuses to attack me. Which isn't too bad a bonus, but I'm not sure it's worth the co-...

...Just remembered that I'll be changing my stats about when playing dedicated tank, and my damage will drop. The pure threat Defensive Combo generates will easily and substantially surpass the threat generated by Dragon's Claws' damage. New calculations: Dragon's Claws - 2839.941 / Defensive Combo - 3492.948.

Alongside Tank role's threat generation boost, as well as the stat-based threat generation boost, that would be about 5588.7168...

Using a damage build I have elsewhere to see if I'd keep aggro with this. Average threat generation would be about 6368.544...

Tank's generation if I keep the stats rounded instead of piling on Constitution as was the plan, and using Dragon's Claws: 7774.324272.

That's all assuming, of course, that 1 damage = 1 threat.

Sorry for all the (likely inaccurate) numbers, mostly just throwing them up for my own benefit should I come to read this again later.

Anyway, I suppose I'll just end up trying out Defensive Combo + CC, and seeing if it can keep up with the threat output of damage-dealers. If not, I'll just bite the bullet and spend the resources to retcon. XD Thanks for the input, y'all, and sorry for being so difficult to deal with.

secksegai · August 2012

Not difficult at all, and its actually nice to see people taking extra time to plan out their setup.

Like I mentioned before, if you bother running def combo at all, you might as well run it with the CC.

While your previous example of relying on dc to hold threat is plausible for many circumstances, that def combo really is more versatile and really what justifies it.

The irony is, most of the time short of the big bad boss, you'll just be using a decent aoe with CS to hold threat (on top of role or bulwark)

williamkony · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

Not difficult at all, and its actually nice to see people taking extra time to plan out their setup.

Like I mentioned before, if you bother running def combo at all, you might as well run it with the CC.

While your previous example of relying on dc to hold threat is plausible for many circumstances, that def combo really is more versatile and really what justifies it.

The irony is, most of the time short of the big bad boss, you'll just be using a decent aoe with CS to hold threat (on top of role or bulwark)

Heh, due to not yet having my Freeform Slot, planning is all I can do. XD

I'm almost certainly going to be taking Defensive Combo with CC now, I think. Won't be able to keep up my threat with Dragon's Claws if I'm geared up for survivability, it seems. Then the load off my shoulders as far as maintaining Defiance stacks. I can even hope that the damage is low enough to let me beat on random destructible objects to refresh the buff.

As for Challenging Strikes on an AoE move... Currently, my AoE move is Eye of the Storm, for its damage shield, the relatively good damage at the beginning of each maintain, and the low energy cost. Sadly, this doesn't have Challenging Strikes available, and the actual area of effect size is as small as it can get.
I'm thinking it might be nice to change that out for something else... Unfortunately, all the physical-damage alternatives that I'm seeing have problems. All the non-spherical ones are out right off the bat, as I much prefer being able to hit on all sides, and use the move without a target.

After narrowing it down to spheres, there's the specific problems with each one:

Force Eruption and Havoc Stomp send enemies flying...
Shuriken Storm has a chance to miss AND deals less damage...
Sword Cyclone takes more energy than I can put out, I believe...
Thunderclap has a cooldown...

Iron Cyclone is a possible consideration, despite its minor knockback and slightly lower damage. The AoE is large, and it kinda fits the character a bit. EDIT 2: Oh, hadn't realized that this costs almost as much to maintain as Sword Cyclone does... Ouch.

Quicksand might be possible, despite not fitting the character at all, but I'll need to do more research into how it works. I'm not sure how each value comes into play; if the damage starts low and gets higher, if it's the opposite, how quickly the damage changes to high/low, if it locks the character down, etc. But yeah, Quicksand and Iron Cyclone are looking like my best choices right now. EDIT 3: Drat! Just read that Quicksand is considered ranged damage, as far as slotted passive damage boosting goes. Same with Shuriken Storm. There goes that option...

Lead Tempest was a consideration given its massive AoE, but the fact that it's ranged damage instead of melee and has a chance to miss puts a bit of a damper on that idea. Though, I have read that Challenging Strikes is applied regardless of whether or not it hits, which is a point in its favor.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered that Way of the Warrior (the offense passive I'll be using) gives a boost to ALL melee damage, though lower than the boost to physical. So I suppose other AoEs are available... Does Pyre's fire patch trigger Challenging Strikes?

beldin · August 2012

Btw.: if you are unsure of the advantage point, make sure you set that point as the very last
in your build, so its cheap to change it later

monaahiru wrote: »

Sometime I keep taking aggro without any CC even we have Tank on team.
It's fate of Pesty-Epidemic spammer. >.<

Its not just Epidemic / Devour Essence, even if that works maybe best. With my Electric
or Pulse Beam Rifle Builds running in Hybrid with no extra taunts, i mostly also have aggro
in maybe 95% of the alerts.
Especially when there are some hold-spamming Bosses i'm so sick of that, and really happy
if there finally is a real tank so that i don't have aggro.

beldin · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Iron Cyclone is a possible consideration, despite its minor knockback and slightly lower damage. The AoE is large, and it kinda fits the character a bit. EDIT 2: Oh, hadn't realized that this costs almost as much to maintain as Sword Cyclone does... Ouch.

Quicksand might be possible, despite not fitting the character at all, but I'll need to do more research into how it works. I'm not sure how each value comes into play; if the damage starts low and gets higher, if it's the opposite, how quickly the damage changes to high/low, if it locks the character down, etc. But yeah, Quicksand and Iron Cyclone are looking like my best choices right now. EDIT 3: Drat! Just read that Quicksand is considered ranged damage, as far as slotted passive damage boosting goes. Same with Shuriken Storm. There goes that option...

Lead Tempest was a consideration given its massive AoE, but the fact that it's ranged damage instead of melee and has a chance to miss puts a bit of a damper on that idea. Though, I have read that Challenging Strikes is applied regardless of whether or not it hits, which is a point in its favor.

Yeah .. the cost of Iron Cyclone is just so high. Thats maybe a relic from the times when
we didn't had much good 25ft PBAoEs. If you take it however there is an Advantage that
makes the knock-back a knock-to, so you should take that.

Quicksand works a little like Epidemic or Hurricane, only that it roots you and the range
is smaller at the begin. But i think it also interrupts mobs that a pulled towards you, at
least it worked great against these nasty Combat Engineers.

Lead Tempest, even if it could also need some love damage-wise and with the miss-chance,
is still one of my favourite PBAoEs

williamkony · August 2012

beldin wrote: »

Btw.: if you are unsure of the advantage point, make sure you set that point as the very last
in your build, so its cheap to change it later

Its not just Epidemic / Devour Essence, even if that works maybe best. With my Electric
or Pulse Beam Rifle Builds running in Hybrid with no extra taunts, i mostly also have aggro
in maybe 95% of the alerts.
Especially when there are some hold-spamming Bosses i'm so sick of that, and really happy
if there finally is a real tank so that i don't have aggro.

Oh, if I can find an AoE I like that I can stick Challenging Strikes on, I don't think that'll be a point of concern.

No need to put Challenging Strikes in last, as I'm pretty sure I'll keep it. The problem is finding a power I like... It seems that the PBAoEs I was considering that have a range over 10 feet don't count as melee when looking at damage boosts, meaning that Form of the Tempest and Way of the Warrior will have little effect on them. Quicksand and Shuriken Storm.

I don't know if Iron Cyclone works that way. But, that energy cost is far too brutal. The only other thing I can think of would be Pyre, but that's really expensive, too... Unless the fire patch left from fully charging the power triggers Challenging Strikes with each tick. If it does, that'll be the winner, I think.

beldin wrote: »

Yeah .. the cost of Iron Cyclone is just so high. Thats maybe a relic from the times when
we didn't had much good 25ft PBAoEs. If you take it however there is an Advantage that
makes the knock-back a knock-to, so you should take that.

Quicksand works a little like Epidemic or Hurricane, only that it roots you and the range
is smaller at the begin. But i think it also interrupts mobs that a pulled towards you, at
least it worked great against these nasty Combat Engineers.

Lead Tempest, even if it could also need some love damage-wise and with the miss-chance,
is still one of my favourite PBAoEs

Yeah, the drag-in and movement debuff of Quicksand were incredibly alluring for the power.

I'll have to test once I finally get a Freeform Slot, and see if the claim that Quicksand calculates as ranged is true.

If all else fails, I may just end up using my last power slot for Lead Tempest, and take Challenging Strikes alone rather than ranking up the power as was my intention. Have a damage AoE and a tanking AoE. But, being able to actually kill enemies in a larger-than-10-feet area of effect would be very helpful.

EDIT: Just calculated it... If I were to gear up optimally for each power within the confines of my build, I'd have Eye of the Storm doing an average of 1507 damage per tick, and Lead Tempest doing 648 within 30 feet, or 432 within 30-50 feet. I'm not sure that massive drop in damage is worth the increased AoE and ability to take Challenging Strikes. Would anyone else make that sacrifice?

secksegai · August 2012

If you're planning on tanking, you won't be running an offensive passive, short of an aopm (technically that isn't even offensive) tank relying on dodge/avoid gear and cycling md and maybe unbreak.

All this concern for damage.... damage is secondary, threat gen is primary when building a real tank that not only can mitigate damage but hold threat and protect teammates as well.

Iron Cyclone or its Poison variant are my personal favorites for an aoe. With the adv, you not only build/maintain enrage, but also knock towards (also counting towards enrage) which helps control the crowd.

Having a ranged pbaoe may not synergize with your damage output, but as I said before, damage isn't your highest priority.

williamkony · August 2012

In this case, it is important, though. XD Tanking is only one aspect of the character... I also want to be able to deal damage when in "damage mode", where I will be using an offensive passive. So, I'd like the AoE to be multi-purpose in that regard.

williamkony · August 2012

O_O

...So, Challenging Strikes applies 200 threat >per tick<, right?

...Plasma Beam ticks every 0.1 seconds. And according to the Wiki, it has Challenging Strikes. The AoE is rather small, but from my understanding, you can "sweep" it around by moving your camera, as it fires wherever you're pointing.

If this thing really shoots out 2000 threat per second... I may just drop Defensive Combo, and not bother taking an "Eye of the Storm replacement" AoE attack. This'd work for threat on single targets as well as groups just fine. Lots of energy consumption, but I don't mind firing off the Energy Builder a bit if THIS is the result.

But, I need to be certain: DOES Plasma Beam have Challenging Strikes available, and DOES it apply 200 threat every 0.1 seconds?

EDIT: Shoot, forgot I'd already posted in this thread. >.< Should have edited the last post.

mijjestic · August 2012

It's probably 200 threat a second.

secksegai · August 2012

One thing you'll eventually realize while running freeform is that while it is possible to run in any mode (ie protector/avenger etc), whenever you decide to bridge out beyond more than one role, you'll have to make sacrifices.

Running a tank side and an offensive side is generally a bad idea, primarily because of how threat gen works.

In order to be a truly effective tank (as in holding threat and absorbing damage), you'll be running CC/CS, which is detrimental when you're running an offensive passive. If you avoid CC/CS, you'll lose threat far too often, so not only will you fail to be effective as a tank, but you won't be optimized for damage output either, so in effect sacrificing a lot to be mediocre in either role.

Plasma beam, even with r3/cs isn't the most effective threat generator. While you can spin around, the ultimate problem is you won't be holding threat in an area effect efficiently at all, which is why the pbaoes or aoes with a sphere/radial effect are generally more effective in holding threat against a group. Even against a single target, by itself its rarely going to generate enough threat to protect squishier teammates.

On the other hand, if you just want an offensive side and a tough side you've got far more room to work with.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

Agreed with secksi, with a caveat. I use plasma on my tank, and it actually holds a sick amount of threat, because I bunch em together, back up, and unleash. that CC on 0.1 a tick does add up pretty fast, but it takes some serious skill to keep the beam focused. That's the tactics side of crowd control, that imo is essential to actually tanking well in this game. After a quick "stand behind me a decent bit and let me pull em to you" message at the beginning of a lair? It's actually rather easy to keep threat off of just about everyone. It's fiddly, tho, because if someone breaks aggro from you? You gotta turn around and let em have it for a half a second. Usually, they fall right back in and you can just swing around em and refocus the beam at the group. But, ironically, I'm running one of those dps tanks, and I use fast aoe pings (along with liberal applications of gravity drive) to cluster mobs together to let the beam happen. TL:DR? Your mileage may vary, because of how many powers there are in the game. There's always an exception.

Far as I'm concerned, there's no better way to generate threat on a boss. Where that power really shines, imo, is applying threat to a major boss. The fast ticks, the single target, and the fact that it doesn't untoggle with a slight cooldown like the rest of power armor? Gold, right there. With a decent pre, Gravitar becomes 100% focused.

williamkony · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

One thing you'll eventually realize while running freeform is that while it is possible to run in any mode (ie protector/avenger etc), whenever you decide to bridge out beyond more than one role, you'll have to make sacrifices.

Running a tank side and an offensive side is generally a bad idea, primarily because of how threat gen works.

In order to be a truly effective tank (as in holding threat and absorbing damage), you'll be running CC/CS, which is detrimental when you're running an offensive passive. If you avoid CC/CS, you'll lose threat far too often, so not only will you fail to be effective as a tank, but you won't be optimized for damage output either, so in effect sacrificing a lot to be mediocre in either role.

Plasma beam, even with r3/cs isn't the most effective threat generator. While you can spin around, the ultimate problem is you won't be holding threat in an area effect efficiently at all, which is why the pbaoes or aoes with a sphere/radial effect are generally more effective in holding threat against a group. Even against a single target, by itself its rarely going to generate enough threat to protect squishier teammates.

On the other hand, if you just want an offensive side and a tough side you've got far more room to work with.

chalupaoffury wrote: »

Agreed with secksi, with a caveat. I use plasma on my tank, and it actually holds a sick amount of threat, because I bunch em together, back up, and unleash. that CC on 0.1 a tick does add up pretty fast, but it takes some serious skill to keep the beam focused. That's the tactics side of crowd control, that imo is essential to actually tanking well in this game. After a quick "stand behind me a decent bit and let me pull em to you" message at the beginning of a lair? It's actually rather easy to keep threat off of just about everyone. It's fiddly, tho, because if someone breaks aggro from you? You gotta turn around and let em have it for a half a second. Usually, they fall right back in and you can just swing around em and refocus the beam at the group. But, ironically, I'm running one of those dps tanks, and I use fast aoe pings (along with liberal applications of gravity drive) to cluster mobs together to let the beam happen. TL:DR? Your mileage may vary, because of how many powers there are in the game. There's always an exception.

Far as I'm concerned, there's no better way to generate threat on a boss. Where that power really shines, imo, is applying threat to a major boss. The fast ticks, the single target, and the fact that it doesn't untoggle with a slight cooldown like the rest of power armor? Gold, right there. With a decent pre, Gravitar becomes 100% focused.

Yeehaw, then that's perfect!! Plasma Beam can be my tanking power.

And that frees up a power slot and three advantage points, meaning I can take Ego Surge with Nimble Mind for some extra utility. >:D Or whatever other power I'd like to take. And it leaves my damage-dealing powers alone so that they won't generate extra threat! :P Finally, all the pieces of this build are falling into place. Have been juggling it for quite some time trying to equalize everything, cover all the bases. I think I have it, now!

Thanks a ton for all the info, y'all!

chalupaoffury · August 2012

just remember, if you plan on plasma beam as your cc device? Get em in a line, or close to it, for your alpha. Or, use something that'll bunch em together. If you draw, just the initial dps will pull em to you enough that you can reposition yourself to get maximum appliance of your cc. Actually, there's a neat debuff with cc in one of the specialization sets you'll wanna grab. It's only like 4% extra damage at rank 3, but it'll make your pings hit quite a bit harder. I use that and chest beam to put like 16% damage vuln on mobs, makes the real hits a lot harder. I posted the build in the freeform directory in the powers forum, that I use. You might take a few cues from it, depending on what you're going for. It sounds like we're building to similar ends, although I fell more on the tank side of things, while trying to work in some cc and put out some good dps.

Good luck

.

gwanfoogoldstein · August 2012

Another option.

Challenging strikes, and it leaves a patch

Sparkstorm with Electric Personality and CS is also nice for threat-while doing other things if you have the energy for it.

+S

williamkony · August 2012

chalupaoffury wrote: »

just remember, if you plan on plasma beam as your cc device? Get em in a line, or close to it, for your alpha. Or, use something that'll bunch em together. If you draw, just the initial dps will pull em to you enough that you can reposition yourself to get maximum appliance of your cc. Actually, there's a neat debuff with cc in one of the specialization sets you'll wanna grab. It's only like 4% extra damage at rank 3, but it'll make your pings hit quite a bit harder. I use that and chest beam to put like 16% damage vuln on mobs, makes the real hits a lot harder. I posted the build in the freeform directory in the powers forum, that I use. You might take a few cues from it, depending on what you're going for. It sounds like we're building to similar ends, although I fell more on the tank side of things, while trying to work in some cc and put out some good dps.

Good luck .

Thanks for the tips! Given the information that you just provided, I'd assume you're talking about Debilitating Challenge in the Protector tree... Doesn't that only affect Crippling Challenge? It wouldn't do anything for Plasma Beam, if that's the case, unless it affects Challenging Strikes as well.

My build is already pretty "full" as it is, so I can't really adapt much from your own build, but you have got me thinking about changing up my Specializations. XD Right now, I'm using the old Vindicator/Guardian combo. It's too bad there aren't any trees that give a cost discount to AoE attacks! That's my one concern with Plasma Beam.

gwanfoogoldstein wrote: »

Another option.

Challenging strikes, and it leaves a patch

Sparkstorm with Electric Personality and CS is also nice for threat-while doing other things if you have the energy for it.

+S

Problem with that is the knockback that Sparkstorm creates via Negative Ions.

What do you mean by "Challenging strikes, and it leaves a patch"? I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to. XD It sounds like Sparkstorm is a separate subject, from the way you worded it.

secksegai · August 2012

Don't forget, if you do plan on tanking, its in your best interest to have at least one CC carrier. Certain bossfights like viper-x or baron are changed significantly just by preventing them from blocking.

Take note that plasma beam can irritating to position for and that it really helps to have other tools to keep the targets in the beam. You'll really want to try it out before you commit. I'm used to teaming with high damage output, frequent low ticks have a hard time holding threat against huge crits.

williamkony · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

Don't forget, if you do plan on tanking, its in your best interest to have at least one CC carrier. Certain bossfights like viper-x or baron are changed significantly just by preventing them from blocking.

Take note that plasma beam can irritating to position for and that it really helps to have other tools to keep the targets in the beam. You'll really want to try it out before you commit. I'm used to teaming with high damage output, frequent low ticks have a hard time holding threat against huge crits.

Well, if it's too irritating, I'll just have to suck it up and learn how to use it anyway. XD

As for Crippling Challenge... I was considering taking Rebuke as my healing power (had been torn between Empathic Healing and Arcane Vitality before), and giving it Crippling Challenge and Rank 2. Going off of the stats listed on the Wiki, tapped Rebukes will outheal Arcane Vitality on single targets. It also has 100 range, which is something I'd been wanting in a heal, and the reason I'd been looking into Psionic Healing before that.

At Rank 2, Rebuke heals a little less than half of Rank 1 Conviction, without the cooldown, and with the ability to use it on others in the team. It should suit my needs, I think. Then, Crippling Challenge to give it the second purpose of disabling blocks, reducing damage output, and forcing enemies to attack me. Should be fairly useful in PvP, too, being able to take out the enemy's blocking and then snipe them with Pulse Beam Rifle.

I know my build sounds like a mess, but I swear, it works.

Or, the old version of it worked. And unless there's some random info that I'm not aware of on each of these powers, this'll work even better.

As for high damage from others taking threat, well-... There's not really anything I can do about that. $:\$ Plasma Beam is the most effective threat-dealer I'm seeing, at 2000 threat per second (before damage), so if that isn't enough, that teammate will just have to stay alive. I can switch to healing them if Plasma Beam doesn't cut it with their damage output.

secksegai · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Should be fairly useful in PvP, too, being able to take out the enemy's blocking and then snipe them with Pulse Beam Rifle.

I know my build sounds like a mess, but I swear, it works.

While concepts and multi role are fine for pve - you're in for a rude awakening if you think it will be pvp viable as well.

There's a reason I was emphasizing being careful with trying to fill too many roles. Pvp generally requires a dedicated setup, especially in the current meta-game. While my pve builds often take lessons learned from pvp, they are lacking in certain "pvp" requirements that are clearly evident when taking on dedicated pvp builds.

I really think you're starting to overreach with this setup now, FF allows you to do more, but you don't have enough power points (or adv pts for that matter) to split amongst that many roles.

chalupaoffury · August 2012

Yeah, this might work for pve, but I strongly suggest against trying to take it pvp. Secksi's right, you'll get your face eaten. I hate to use the stereotype, but the only characters that really stand much of a chance in pvp right now are the ones that have a mixed bag of awkward powers that don't seem to fit, just because they have the most effectiveness when used together.

williamkony · August 2012

Heh, yeah, I have no delusions about being capable of high-end PvP. XD More just "for fun" PvP, going into Zombie Apocalypse or doing random duels with friends.

Damage doling out threat, or Defensive Combo rank2/CC advantage.

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