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Remaining Issues with Toggles and Auras
zedulon
Posts: 51 Arc User
As long as we're discussing the changes to Toggled Forms and Auras, I'd like to bring up what I feel are the major outstanding issues with them.
1) Grimoire should be changed to Support role from Hybrid role. The change to AoPM seriously nerfed this Archetype, it should be placed in the optimal role for what it does.
2) Mental Discipline is the only remaining offensive Form that doesn't provide a stacking damage buff. It should be updated to be consistent with other toggled forms.
3) Focus is now greatly superior to Enraged stacks, for a variety of reasons. I'll focus on the most common two Forms: Enrage and Form of the Tempest (FotT).
a) Enrage builds with Knock, which is actually a detrimental effect. Sure, massive knocks are fun. But anyone who's been in a Dockside Dustup against a knockable boss knows that knocks horribly reduce your DPS by moving your target out of range of your attacks. The second-biggest single complaint in timed alerts is people who use knock, which reduces everyone's DPS, and reduces the chances of success. But most users of Enrage have no choice but to regularly knock their targets. By comparison, FotT builds on Crits, which are a very common and highly beneficial effect.
b) DEX is better than STR because of crits. With the way the Specialization trees have emphasized crits for damage, DEX is a huge damage boooster for all toons. The melee damage bonus of STR is nice, but nowhere near as large of a damage boost. Which means that the scaling stat of DEX gives FotT a much better synergy than the scaling stat of STR does for Enrage. Even for a tank, the defensive Dodge benefits of DEX (with specs and Elusive Monk) far outweigh the defensive benefits of STR (Knock Resist and Swole). DEX even helps healing by increasing the chances of crit heals.
c) FotT builds faster when you rank it. Ranking up FotT gives chances to build additional stacks on each crit. Enrage has no similar benefit. That means FotT stacks faster.
d) The Rush buff provides a huge energy management bonus for FotT when you use certain common attacks (any of the 5 Dragon attacks). Enrage has no comparable benefit.
The net result of all of these differences is that FotT (and similar Focus toggles) are far superior to Enraged (and, to a lesser extend, AotBestial.) This is creating an imbalance in the game.
I'd invite anyone who has read this far to provide ideas and suggestions for how to improve this balance. I have some ideas of my own, but I'd like to think them over a bit more before suggesting them.
1) Grimoire should be changed to Support role from Hybrid role. The change to AoPM seriously nerfed this Archetype, it should be placed in the optimal role for what it does.
2) Mental Discipline is the only remaining offensive Form that doesn't provide a stacking damage buff. It should be updated to be consistent with other toggled forms.
3) Focus is now greatly superior to Enraged stacks, for a variety of reasons. I'll focus on the most common two Forms: Enrage and Form of the Tempest (FotT).
a) Enrage builds with Knock, which is actually a detrimental effect. Sure, massive knocks are fun. But anyone who's been in a Dockside Dustup against a knockable boss knows that knocks horribly reduce your DPS by moving your target out of range of your attacks. The second-biggest single complaint in timed alerts is people who use knock, which reduces everyone's DPS, and reduces the chances of success. But most users of Enrage have no choice but to regularly knock their targets. By comparison, FotT builds on Crits, which are a very common and highly beneficial effect.
b) DEX is better than STR because of crits. With the way the Specialization trees have emphasized crits for damage, DEX is a huge damage boooster for all toons. The melee damage bonus of STR is nice, but nowhere near as large of a damage boost. Which means that the scaling stat of DEX gives FotT a much better synergy than the scaling stat of STR does for Enrage. Even for a tank, the defensive Dodge benefits of DEX (with specs and Elusive Monk) far outweigh the defensive benefits of STR (Knock Resist and Swole). DEX even helps healing by increasing the chances of crit heals.
c) FotT builds faster when you rank it. Ranking up FotT gives chances to build additional stacks on each crit. Enrage has no similar benefit. That means FotT stacks faster.
d) The Rush buff provides a huge energy management bonus for FotT when you use certain common attacks (any of the 5 Dragon attacks). Enrage has no comparable benefit.
The net result of all of these differences is that FotT (and similar Focus toggles) are far superior to Enraged (and, to a lesser extend, AotBestial.) This is creating an imbalance in the game.
I'd invite anyone who has read this far to provide ideas and suggestions for how to improve this balance. I have some ideas of my own, but I'd like to think them over a bit more before suggesting them.
Post edited by zedulon on
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the grimore is a hybrid
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That seems balanced enough to me.
If you are just referring to consistency, then yeah it is different, even if it is balanced.
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And he wants to change it to Support FROM hybrid, to take more advantage of the AoPM. Makes sense for a support AT :cool:
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Hey, you can't have a topic about toggle forms without this being brought up.
About having FotT and FotM be easier to gain stacks, Enrage has the ability to restore health. But the problem is that it depends on Con which isn't a stat that increases Enrage stack effectiveness, unlike the other Forms that are entirely self reliant on a single stat. That is the problem.
Might is now under-performing in comparison to martial arts, which was close to Might before On Alert. It is also under-performing in relation to ranged sets with toggles that attain stacks in ways that do not remove their targets from attack range. In other words, Might is now weaker than many other frames.
Is Enrage's health gain actually that much to write home about? Basing the heal proc on Strength would do nothing to compensate Might for the issues with generating stacks. Don't get me wrong, I know Enrage had to change. I'm not complaining that it did. However, I can understand why people who were playing strong-hero characters are unhappy with how the changes affected their characters and the inequity between toggles.
Another way of stating this is ... How many characters are using FotT versus the single blade and claw toggles? Does anyone but dodge tanks use FotM? DEX primary melee has a stack-on-crit option AND three other, decidedly less popular options. STR-based characters proc stacks on knocks, period. It might be nice if the STR primary talent that allows STR to increase crit chance also changed Enrage to proc on crits.
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Then there is Form of The Tempest, which triggers off of critical hits, which is basically a general mechanic to every power in the game.
Because enrage is so specific, and FoTT is so general, FoTT comes out untop and is vastly more flexible.
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Not really. A perfectly built Might DPS was going to underperform compared to some sets, and outperform others even with Enrage and Aggressor.
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This is only noticeable to people that stacked crits with aggressor. To people now putting crits into their bricks this hasn't changed much.
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You could just not use IDF and be rid of the needless gimp factor it adds.
Unless you like that sort of thing. I'm not judgin'...
Right now, you can stack Enrage with Knocks or Bleeds (AotBestial). You can proc Focus with Crits, Bleeds, Charge-ups, or Dodges.
So add two more Enrage toggles to be comparable to FotTiger and FotMaster:
"Enrage on Charge-up" : Procs Enraged whenever you charge a melee attack at least halfway, just like FotTiger for Focus. I expect this would become the most popular means of stacking Enrage, because almost all of the Brick attacks are charge based.
"Enrage on Block" : Procs Enraged whenever you block an attack, max once per 3 seconds. This is the 'Tank Proc' option, just like FotMaster procs on dodges.
Obviously, someone would need to come up with names for the various Enrage variants. And Archetypes that currently use Enrage should be updated to whatever is most appropriate. I'll throw out some suggestions, though alternatives would be welcome.
- Rename the current Enrage power to "Rage of the Brawler"
- Rename Aspect of the Bestial to "Rage of the Beast"
- Name 'Enrage on Charge-up' as "Rage of the Gladiator," and put it in the Heavy Weapons powerset.
- Name 'Enrage on Block' as "Rage of the Bulwark," and put it in the Might powerset.
- Rename the advantage on Form of the Tiger to "Fury of the Beast"
Oh, and change the Impulse to Concentration. That was a good point.