I now understand its not worth explaining this to you, as you have an agenda.
I put my thoughts out there with numbers, Falchoin has put a superior analysis.
You choose to ignore anything that doesn't support your FALSE supposition that Nightwarrior is balanced.
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
Note: There are diminishing returns on additive damage bonuses as well when using a freeform, so the above numbers are not going to translate directly to the damage numbers given below.
Dodge/Avoidance (using D/A primary defense):
No Passive - 43.5% dodge / 60% avoidance
Night Warrior - 48.7% dodge / 66% avoidance
Way of the Warrior - 52.8% dodge / 70.4% avoidance
It doesn't take half a second of rough math to realize something is way out of whack here.
Remember, Freeforms have diminishing returns that brings the additive bonuses even closer.
Remember that Nightwarrior has Intrinsic Penetration allowing it to close the gap even more or exceed other passives.
Note that No passive up there also includes all of the projector offensive passives as they give neglible defensive utility.
Lets also remember that Night warrior gives Free powers and Greater Damage buffing from stealth on top of all this.
Either way If this power goes live in its current outlandish form, that I think is frankly embarrasing to Cryptic as a development team, I win anyway since I will just respec all my toons to it.
Sadly it will make Cryptics already marginal content even more trivialized.
Good point, I think I'll stick to thinking of it as an Active Offense paired with a Passive.
Sneak disables during taking damage and can only be re-enabled (unless a tank peels off threat) with Smoke Bomb and Evasive Maneuvers (at a 50% ratio). I believe that's the perfect balance for someone looking to be an assassin. If you prefer to restore the disabled during combat, that's fine, as long as evasive maneuvers and smoke bomb wipe combat.
Enabling sneak doesn't wipe threat, so it can't be used more than once during a fight outside of special powers will cooldown.
Anything else would trivialize the stealth aspect of the passive.
If anything then lower the base damage of the passive a few %.
I really don't see anything wrong with the power as is, because it's exceptionally situational.
Let's look at what it takes to build a good stealth.
Smoke Bomb
Smoke Grenade
Evasive Maneuvers
Night Warrior
2 or 3 Active offenses.
Thats 6-7 powers right there. And we still don't have attacks.
Then we have to invest 6 points in SB,SG,EM alone to make them work at all.
That's all to get a single target bonus while in stealth....
Not AoE...
Doesn't work while damaged.
Only works for one attack.
As things stand on the PTS right now, you can only get Sneak by taking Night Warrior, and it only works while Night Warrior is slotted. I've got it in red because this is a massive bug: Sneak should be available independent of Night Warrior, and it should be up to the player to decide how he wants to use it. For example, I'm trying to put together a "heal from the shadows" type who stays out of the fighting and simply heals and buffs her team-mates; to put together this Support character, I am required to slot an Offensive Passive.
I now understand its not worth explaining this to you, as you have an agenda.
I put my thoughts out there with numbers, Falchoin has put a superior analysis.
You choose to ignore anything that doesn't support your FALSE supposition that Nightwarrior is balanced.
O'rly?
how do you get "night-warrior is balanced" from this?
NW needs to be toned down.
Ive already said shadow strike hits too hard, sneak needs a cool-down and even begrudgingly am willing to go along with NW and sneak/shadow strike being separated as a bundled package.
or this? LINK
Your the 2nd person to put those words in my mouth today. Maybe your more concerned about being rite than furthering this discussion.
With regard to the cryptic math you didnt answer my question you only requoted this:
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
These numbers suggest that WOTW is providing more damage. Now i understand that cryptic maths and diminishing returns mean that these numbers may not be accurate in combat, but this is far from showing that NW will out damage WOTW in the context of AOEs and potentially single target maintains v trash -villain mobs.
You yourself said "It doesn't take half a second of rough math" but im dyslectic and not good at math so indulge me and post the numbers or combat logs. After all it would only take "a half a second".
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Sneak works in combat, even if you have aggro, even if you have dots running on an enemy. You do not need to buy any excess stealth enabling powers to get off anything sneak related. It's probably not supposed to work in combat, but it currently does.
I'm also getting tired of people saying I'm "ignoring the facts" or "wont admit that I'm wrong" just because some one wants to twist the facts.
hocofaisan, I've already publicly apologized to you in this thread when i was in fact wrong proving that I'm not to big to own up to when I've made a mistake.
Don't try to demonize me to diminish my points. My only "agenda" is to make this pass the best it can be.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Sneak works in combat, even if you have aggro, even if you have dots running on an enemy. You do not need to buy any excess stealth enabling powers to get off anything sneak related. It's probably not supposed to work in combat, but it currently does.
The patch notes indicated to me, Sneak is supposed to work incombat, but not while you take or inflict damage, it sounds appropriate, however there probably be some 2-4 second check to this to prevent someone from sneaking immediately after a hit
As things stand on the PTS right now, you can only get Sneak by taking Night Warrior, and it only works while Night Warrior is slotted. I've got it in red because this is a massive bug: Sneak should be available independent of Night Warrior, and it should be up to the player to decide how he wants to use it. For example, I'm trying to put together a "heal from the shadows" type who stays out of the fighting and simply heals and buffs her team-mates; to put together this Support character, I am required to slot an Offensive Passive.
I actually find this point viable, Sneak being seperated from Night Warrior would be perfectly reasonable, as I stated before, Sneak in its live form with the PTS buffs would make Sneak a good power and not overpowered.
O'rly?
how do you get "night-warrior is balanced" from this?
or this? LINK
Your the 2nd person to put those words in my mouth today. Maybe your more concerned about being rite than furthering this discussion.
With regard to the cryptic math you didnt answer my question you only requoted this:
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
These numbers suggest that WOTW is providing more damage. Now i understand that cryptic maths and diminishing returns mean that these numbers may not be accurate in combat, but this is far from showing that NW will out damage WOTW in the context of AOEs and potentially single target maintains v trash -villain mobs.
You yourself said "It doesn't take half a second of rough math" but im dyslectic and not good at math so indulge me and post the numbers or combat logs. After all it would only take "a half a second".
You are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.
Free Forms Diminishing Returns.
Damage Penetration.
Go reread Falchoin's post, I am unwilling to give the farm away on the forums about Additive buffs.
Lets also not forget what nightwarrior gets on top of everything else most active offenses provide:
Free Stealth Power
Free Massive melee spike power
Free Dodge/Avoidance ratings.
Sneak works in combat, even if you have aggro, even if you have dots running on an enemy. You do not need to buy any excess stealth enabling powers to get off anything sneak related. It's probably not supposed to work in combat, but it currently does.
Really, because I can't seem to stay in sneak since I get knocked out when taking damage.
Good luck on a 2 second charge.
What I said was that you can't reliably use sneak in combat, unless someone pulls threat off you, or you use something to wipe threat (like smoke bomb or Evasive advantaged).
Free Forms Diminishing Returns.
Damage Penetration.
Go reread Falchoin's post, I am unwilling to give the farm away on the forums about Additive buffs.
Lets also not forget what nightwarrior gets on top of everything else most active offenses provide:
Free Stealth Power
Free Massive melee spike power
Free Dodge/Avoidance ratings.
Oh my goodness, you're arguing like a child, HE SAID HE GETS IT. Will you STOP COMPLAINING AND MOVE ON.
EDIT: didn't want to double post, but want to mention, the addition of charge time reduction from passives like Aura of Arcane Clarity and Night Warrior on to other MELEE passives (debateable with ranged passives, but most offensive passives need buffs, as they largely lag behind defensive/support *cough cough, AoPM* passives).
Really, because I can't seem to stay in sneak since I get knocked out when taking damage.
Good luck on a 2 second charge.
What I said was that you can't reliably use sneak in combat, unless someone pulls threat off you, or you use something to wipe threat (like smoke bomb or Evasive advantaged).
Because you are suppose to lose sneak when you take damage. That's in the notes. You won't lose sneak for entering combat now, also in the notes.
Free Forms Diminishing Returns.
Damage Penetration.
Go reread Falchoin's post, I am unwilling to give the farm away on the forums about Additive buffs.
Lets also not forget what nightwarrior gets on top of everything else most active offenses provide:
Free Stealth Power
Free Massive melee spike power
Free Dodge/Avoidance ratings.
OMG, then kill the <BLANKED> melee spike power. I don't want/need, and if this is causing the whole argument then kill it with fire.
If stealth has a CD longer than 10 seconds, doesn't have bonus damage to ranged, or if NW doesn't give equal base damage to ranged, then it's a wasted passive and I'd rather them scrap the dang thing.
Finally I have a passive with decent defense, and a flat damage buff. The fact that I can use a stealth playstyle is a bonus. And the power doesn't give any more total damage increase than ANY OTHER PASSIVE...
Heck, even AoED was given a proc on crit to have MOAR damage.
I'm tired of the whiners killing everything.
Tone it down, yes, but I think it can be done by scrapping the stealth melee attack, and lowering the stealth bonuses.
Because you are suppose to lose sneak when you take damage. That's in the notes. You won't lose sneak for entering combat now, also in the notes.
You completely and repeatedly miss what I'm saying and play captain obvious with what I've already said.
Losing while taking damage prevents you from solo spamming sneak attacks.
The only way to reliably re-enter stealth when you don't have someone taking threat away from you, is by using a threat clearing power (Evasive advantaged).
Third time I've said that.
This is fair, and it allows you to have a method to reenter stealth so stealth spiking isn't just some gimic, but a part of your rotation for long duration fights.
Guys, this is the same dang thing that any other stealth power in any other MMO game does. This is not a revolutionary idea.
Falchoin your the numbers guy so please chime in.
Does NW have the best AOE dmg or not? And if so does is it better against MVs and up or across the board?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Tone it down, yes, but I think it can be done by scrapping the stealth melee attack, and lowering the stealth bonuses.
Lowering the nearly nonexistant steath bonuses? Please can we not do that? Lets actually buff sneak and make it good on its own, then seperate it from Night Warrior, infact, rename Night Warrior to something else, remove the penetration, keep everything else, remove Shadow Strike aswell, and perhaps a bit more additive (since penetration was removed, sneak seperated, and shadow strike removed)
I think it's all good now for the most part. I do realize that Shadow Strike is a bit too much, but if it does get nerfed then it should also get its cooldown reduced accordingly.
I actually find this point viable, Sneak being seperated from Night Warrior would be perfectly reasonable, as I stated before, Sneak in its live form with the PTS buffs would make Sneak a good power and not overpowered.
Indeed. I'd even nerf it slightly: make it nerf your speed (without killing your travel power) the same way that Block does, unless you take a 1-point Silent Running Advantage.
And even then, it's probably effective enough that the only reason to include it for free with Night Warrior is that Night Warrior is useless without Sneak. Indeed, I'd be inclined to make Sneak a (possibly the prerequisite for Night Warrior, instead of tossing it in as a freebie. Note that this makes Night Warrior harder to acquire than other Slotted Passives, which is itself a problem that would need to be resolved.
Indeed. I'd even nerf it slightly: make it nerf your speed (without killing your travel power) the same way that Block does, unless you take a 1-point Silent Running Advantage.
Actually, it already does that, not as much as Blocking, but there is a small reduction in speed with sneak on.
Sneak disables during taking damage and can only be re-enabled (unless a tank peels off threat) with Smoke Bomb and Evasive Maneuvers ...
Forgot Ego Placate unless you mean the above powers auto-reapply the Sneak. If so then that was removed as of this latest patch. It's a two-step process regardless.
Situational is not Passive. The only thing Passive about Night Warrior is the bonus to all damage buff.
I don't see it as an option I see it as a "hack" to make the entire game system conform to a specific playstyle.
To play in the way that you see as viable, why would you need another attack other than the one they give for free?
Other than that, I call that investment into a playstyle just like any other build. Things can be tweaked or changed to promote it being easier to play in that way.
Instead of picking 2-3 Active Offensives (which only one can be used every 30 seconds) a single Active Offense could work better with that playstyle.
The other stealth powers could be tuned to make having only one or two to be viable instead of the whole gamut.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
I haven't had a chance to test out the "stealth healer" concept yet. My main concern is what happens when you gain Aggro while stealthed - either through direct healing of a teammate or through "passive healing" such as what Medical Nanites cause.
Indeed. I'd even nerf it slightly: make it nerf your speed (without killing your travel power) the same way that Block does, unless you take a 1-point Silent Running Advantage.
Or make Sneak a Block Replacer?
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
I disagree with this, as Sneak as a block...well, in PvP everyone has Crippling Challenge, so Sneak is dead flat, in PvE its useless because...who blocks again?
I disagree with this, as Sneak as a block...well, in PvP everyone has Crippling Challenge, so Sneak is dead flat, in PvE its useless because...who blocks again?
The sneak part of the Block Replacer would only be applied when you are not being hit or attacking for like X seconds (equivalent to Out of Combat). Then stay on after X seconds upon the release of block to allow performing an Alpha Strike within it's duration.
If you can't be seen, then how would one be able to apply Crippling Challenge prior to the Alpha Strike?
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Falchoin your the numbers guy so please chime in.
Does NW have the best AOE dmg or not? And if so does is it better against MVs and up or across the board?
The power applies to all vector types equally. It doesn't have a specific provision for reduced AoE damage.
The damage penetration applies to all attacks made when this passive is equipped as well.
The sneak part of the Block Replacer would only be applied when you are not being hit or attacking for like X seconds (equivalent to Out of Combat). Then stay on after X seconds upon the release of block to allow performing an Alpha Strike within it's duration.
If you can't be seen, then how would one be able to apply Crippling Challenge prior to the Alpha Strike?
Two words: Perception gear.
Three more words (incase thats not enough): Legacy Perception Gear.
...Oh by the way, Sneak's current perception benefit is far too weak, still, imo, I really think perception stealth should not rise with the rank of sneak, but be a high flat number, the bonuses you get from sneak should rank, such as damage bonus, etc.
Two words: Perception gear.
Three more words (incase thats not enough): Legacy Perception Gear.
...Oh by the way, Sneak's current perception benefit is far too weak, still, imo, I really think perception stealth should not rise with the rank of sneak, but be a high flat number, the bonuses you get from sneak should rank, such as damage bonus, etc.
But see numbers are something we all can work with. :biggrin: Mechanics are something we have to deal with.
I'd rather we first have solid mechanics before going LIVE.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Against villain+ enemies Night Warrior should grant higher dps than other offensive passives IF you do not already have defense penetration. AoE or single target makes no difference since the Night Warrior defense penetration applies to both (except in some circumstances like when the damage doesn't come directly from your character like the additional bounces from Boomerang Throw or electric arcs).
If you're using maintains or other non-charge powers against minions then you'll get more dps out of most other offensive passives assuming all the damage types match.
However, the slightly lower damage against henchman is more than made up for by the "extra" damage against the tougher targets in my opinion.
While I don't have a problem with this in principle, it strikes me as a needless complication and a potential source for bugs in practice. As much as is practical, I'd like to keep Sneak as much as it was like prior to Night Warrior being added, just buffed a little and with a few of its restrictions scraped off so that you aren't dropping out of stealth mode at the drop of a hat.
As for Night Warrior, let me +1 the suggestion from the last round of feedback of having it build up a damage buff based on time in stealth mode, instead of the one-note wonder that is this iteration's "sneak attack" power. Cleaner and more versatile.
While I don't have a problem with this in principle, it strikes me as a needless complication and a potential source for bugs in practice. As much as is practical, I'd like to keep Sneak as much as it was like prior to Night Warrior being added, just buffed a little and with a few of its restrictions scraped off so that you aren't dropping out of stealth mode at the drop of a hat.
As for Night Warrior, let me +1 the suggestion from the last round of feedback of having it build up a damage buff based on time in stealth mode, instead of the one-note wonder that is this iteration's "sneak attack" power. Cleaner and more versatile.
That's fair. I figured it would actually be more streamlined in practice and those potential bugs are there cause of inherent problems with blocking itself that should be addressed anyways.
Something I mentioned before is that we only get one option at this moment in the PTS to accept rather than trying out two ideas to see which one works better for everyone. So with it being "good on paper". Can't really make a proof-of-concept myself now can I?
I'm curious on your ideas on potential bugs that could happen though that's at your discretion to bring up.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
While I don't have a problem with this in principle, it strikes me as a needless complication and a potential source for bugs in practice. As much as is practical, I'd like to keep Sneak as much as it was like prior to Night Warrior being added, just buffed a little and with a few of its restrictions scraped off so that you aren't dropping out of stealth mode at the drop of a hat.
This I support, I still honestly believe the LIVE version of sneak should be given the buffs it recieved in this last patch, and then add in more perception (Or my previous suggestion of giving Sneak a nonscaling very high perception stealth, like say, the equivalent of EM's advantage)
Once again you can apply Sneak in combat, with aggro, with bleeds running, without anyone to take aggro from you. (Shadow Strikes at 0:06 (37213) and 1:07 (36069)). You do not need any other stealth granting power.
I really fail to see anything special here. In fact, all watching this video does is make me go "Oh, it's like an IO'd Stalker fighting an EB in CoV." The only difference is here you have to time Sneak right, and in CoV you'd just mash Placate every so often. Well, that and instead of just doing high flat damage, AS had a large portion of "special" (basically irresistible) damage that just ripped chunks off bosses.
AS > Placate > Total Focus/Insert-Spike-Attack-Here would actually kill or nearly kill anything that wasn't an EB or higher outright, it's why you brought a good Stalker to high level content involving any difficult normal spawn critters: done right, they could kill the LTs and Bosses with dangerous debuffs before they could get them off.
Of course, this was AFTER they buffed stalkers, because as it turned out being invisible and doing huge spike damage on a long-ish cooldown really wasn't enough to justify them over most of the other Villain classes in most people's eyes. Consider that for a moment, especially since most CO hybrid characters are more comparable to redside classes than blueside classes.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Once again you can apply Sneak in combat, with aggro, with bleeds running, without anyone to take aggro from you. (Shadow Strikes at 0:06 (37213) and 1:07 (36069)). You do not need any other stealth granting power.
One thing though, You could take a toon maxed for sustained damage, and do that much damage over time as a NW.
Otherwise, we agree.
The problem isn't stealth,
Isn't NW bonuses,
Isn't the damage restrictions on busting stealth.
It's solely Shadow Strikes fault.
Then the answer is to re-evaluate shadow strike....
Maybe a longer activation time?
Make it to where you can't pull it off unless you don't have aggro in practice. (not literally disabled mind you).
Are you supposed to be able to remain in Stealth whilst interacting with things, because that seems a bit broken? I did the end of Reign of Frogs whilst remaining invisible and not having to fight a thing.
NW is a silly passive unto itself and I'll just refer you to Falchoin's number crunching post. It just has too much good stuff going on.
Yes yes, and yes. I'm sure nobody would mind a removal of one of these wonderful features. I'd bet either the defense penetration or the charge time discount. Unless if looking to remove Way of the Warrior, Shadow Form, Pestilence, Kinetic Manipulation, ID mastery, Ego Form, Electric Form, Fiery Form, Ice Form, Stormbringer, Unstoppable and Targeting Computer, of course. Cause frankly, not alot of people give a damn about Shadow Strike, it's that little wanna-be-cool bonus you get when you take the wonderful decision to pick Night Warrior over any other offensive passive.
So ranged is just a little over.
Melee is significantly higher...
But, the 25% and 50% are static, and at R3, 50% and 100%.
So, taking up to level 40, and R3 on passives
Dex - 171, Ego 111, Int 95
Electric Form - 62%
NW - 50%, 100% ranged sneak, 150% melee sneak
WotW - 80% Phy melee
Remember, you can't charge attacks while you have aggro and get the bonus damage, because if anything hits you, you get knocked out of stealth.
The only way to guarantee another stealth attack is to use a tap activate, or use a threat wipe.
So, shadow strike needs to be a charge...
Other than that, maybe lower the bonus damage, but I just don't see how it's not fair.
150 damage bonus if you don't have aggro (or a tap only), 80% damage bonus all the time without any effort.
So, ultimately, put a 10 second cooldown on sneak, and a 1 second charge time on shadow strike, and call it a day.
BTW, exiting sneak is supposed to put a 15 second cooldown on the power. That bug is hurting the balance a little.
Well, it's obvious you don't even look at your numbers and you still are reaching. And the 15 second cooldown bug on sneak isn't hurting the power at all. Really, quit reaching. Regardless of the cooldown or not this is really OP. Especially since people will have that cut down to abotu 7 seconds thanks to their gear.
Shadow Strike a potentially deadly attack on this, its damage is so high. You're allowed to sneak up on you - do not be offended that your throat was cut in pvp. However, I want to offer a little bit of a different solution, in order to avoid exploit in pve: remember the Death Ray advantage for Experimental Blaster, which allows you to apply damage equal to target's HP, but does not act on Super Villain and above (including the players, which in my opinion it is necessary to fix) so that Shadow Strike may act on the same principle, but with a modified list of exceptions.
It's kinda hard to think about testing anything when my main's DPS power Conflagration is doing 0 damage and costing 0 energy to use.
Yeah, I know you want us to test the new powers and such, but I couldn't even think of testing the new Alerts (which I see are going Live today totally untested - nice work!) due to this.
Lowering the nearly nonexistant steath bonuses? Please can we not do that? Lets actually buff sneak and make it good on its own, then seperate it from Night Warrior, infact, rename Night Warrior to something else, remove the penetration, keep everything else, remove Shadow Strike aswell, and perhaps a bit more additive (since penetration was removed, sneak seperated, and shadow strike removed)
I've decided to quote this, because I'm pushing this idea, It gives us an all damage passive without forcing melee only, or ranged only, to take it for stealth, and brings the passive further inline, in the quote it says removing penetration, but another idea would be to give Offensive passives charge time bonuses and not remove this passive's penetration.
It's kinda hard to think about testing anything when my main's DPS power Conflagration is doing 0 damage and costing 0 energy to use.
Yeah, I know you want us to test the new powers and such, but I couldn't even think of testing the new Alerts (which I see are going Live today totally untested - nice work!) due to this.
It's likely to happen either today or tomorrow, as they pushed out the rest of the stuff today to LIVE.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Test: Melee Damage (Dragon's Claws) Way of the Warrior vs. Night Warrior
The goal of this test is to compare the passive benefits of Night Warrior versus that of Way of the Warrior in regards to damage. This is by no means a comprehensive test. The target of this test, Kigatilik, is an immobile entity without knockback attacks. Damage will vary against a different target with significant random damage or an abundance of knockbacks (Gravitar). Damage will also be modified by the target's resistance. Both charge and tap damage is tested because of Night Warrior's charge speed bonus.
Since the test is solely a damage test, ability to tank is ignored, and a healer provides the necessary survivability. While the build has sufficient available slots to add enough survivability to survive, having a healer allows the test to ignore a source of variability.
Each test is parsed for about 1 million of Kigatilik's health, continuous chaining of charged Dragon's Claws or tapping Dragon's Claw in each test.
Significant Powers:
Energy Builder: Rain of Steel
Attack: Dragon's Claws
Circle of Arcane Power (tap test)
Form of the Tiger (charge test)
Form of the Tempest (tap test)
This test ignores using any Active Offenses, Active Defenses, On-Next-Hit powers. Night Warrior's Sneak and Shadow Strike are also not used.
Comments
I now understand its not worth explaining this to you, as you have an agenda.
I put my thoughts out there with numbers, Falchoin has put a superior analysis.
You choose to ignore anything that doesn't support your FALSE supposition that Nightwarrior is balanced.
It doesn't take half a second of rough math to realize something is way out of whack here.
Remember, Freeforms have diminishing returns that brings the additive bonuses even closer.
Remember that Nightwarrior has Intrinsic Penetration allowing it to close the gap even more or exceed other passives.
Note that No passive up there also includes all of the projector offensive passives as they give neglible defensive utility.
Lets also remember that Night warrior gives Free powers and Greater Damage buffing from stealth on top of all this.
Either way If this power goes live in its current outlandish form, that I think is frankly embarrasing to Cryptic as a development team, I win anyway since I will just respec all my toons to it.
Sadly it will make Cryptics already marginal content even more trivialized.
Sneak disables during taking damage and can only be re-enabled (unless a tank peels off threat) with Smoke Bomb and Evasive Maneuvers (at a 50% ratio). I believe that's the perfect balance for someone looking to be an assassin. If you prefer to restore the disabled during combat, that's fine, as long as evasive maneuvers and smoke bomb wipe combat.
Enabling sneak doesn't wipe threat, so it can't be used more than once during a fight outside of special powers will cooldown.
Anything else would trivialize the stealth aspect of the passive.
If anything then lower the base damage of the passive a few %.
I really don't see anything wrong with the power as is, because it's exceptionally situational.
Let's look at what it takes to build a good stealth.
Smoke Bomb
Smoke Grenade
Evasive Maneuvers
Night Warrior
2 or 3 Active offenses.
Thats 6-7 powers right there. And we still don't have attacks.
Then we have to invest 6 points in SB,SG,EM alone to make them work at all.
That's all to get a single target bonus while in stealth....
Not AoE...
Doesn't work while damaged.
Only works for one attack.
I just don't see how this is unfair.
how do you get "night-warrior is balanced" from this? or this? LINK
Your the 2nd person to put those words in my mouth today. Maybe your more concerned about being rite than furthering this discussion.
With regard to the cryptic math you didnt answer my question you only requoted this:
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
These numbers suggest that WOTW is providing more damage. Now i understand that cryptic maths and diminishing returns mean that these numbers may not be accurate in combat, but this is far from showing that NW will out damage WOTW in the context of AOEs and potentially single target maintains v trash -villain mobs.
You yourself said "It doesn't take half a second of rough math" but im dyslectic and not good at math so indulge me and post the numbers or combat logs. After all it would only take "a half a second".
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Sneak works in combat, even if you have aggro, even if you have dots running on an enemy. You do not need to buy any excess stealth enabling powers to get off anything sneak related. It's probably not supposed to work in combat, but it currently does.
hocofaisan, I've already publicly apologized to you in this thread when i was in fact wrong proving that I'm not to big to own up to when I've made a mistake.
Don't try to demonize me to diminish my points. My only "agenda" is to make this pass the best it can be.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
The patch notes indicated to me, Sneak is supposed to work incombat, but not while you take or inflict damage, it sounds appropriate, however there probably be some 2-4 second check to this to prevent someone from sneaking immediately after a hit
I actually find this point viable, Sneak being seperated from Night Warrior would be perfectly reasonable, as I stated before, Sneak in its live form with the PTS buffs would make Sneak a good power and not overpowered.
Free Forms Diminishing Returns.
Damage Penetration.
Go reread Falchoin's post, I am unwilling to give the farm away on the forums about Additive buffs.
Lets also not forget what nightwarrior gets on top of everything else most active offenses provide:
Free Stealth Power
Free Massive melee spike power
Free Dodge/Avoidance ratings.
Really, because I can't seem to stay in sneak since I get knocked out when taking damage.
Good luck on a 2 second charge.
What I said was that you can't reliably use sneak in combat, unless someone pulls threat off you, or you use something to wipe threat (like smoke bomb or Evasive advantaged).
Oh my goodness, you're arguing like a child, HE SAID HE GETS IT. Will you STOP COMPLAINING AND MOVE ON.
EDIT: didn't want to double post, but want to mention, the addition of charge time reduction from passives like Aura of Arcane Clarity and Night Warrior on to other MELEE passives (debateable with ranged passives, but most offensive passives need buffs, as they largely lag behind defensive/support *cough cough, AoPM* passives).
Because you are suppose to lose sneak when you take damage. That's in the notes. You won't lose sneak for entering combat now, also in the notes.
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OMG, then kill the <BLANKED> melee spike power. I don't want/need, and if this is causing the whole argument then kill it with fire.
If stealth has a CD longer than 10 seconds, doesn't have bonus damage to ranged, or if NW doesn't give equal base damage to ranged, then it's a wasted passive and I'd rather them scrap the dang thing.
Finally I have a passive with decent defense, and a flat damage buff. The fact that I can use a stealth playstyle is a bonus. And the power doesn't give any more total damage increase than ANY OTHER PASSIVE...
Heck, even AoED was given a proc on crit to have MOAR damage.
I'm tired of the whiners killing everything.
Tone it down, yes, but I think it can be done by scrapping the stealth melee attack, and lowering the stealth bonuses.
But DO NOT TAKE AWAY RANGED DAMAGE.
You completely and repeatedly miss what I'm saying and play captain obvious with what I've already said.
Losing while taking damage prevents you from solo spamming sneak attacks.
The only way to reliably re-enter stealth when you don't have someone taking threat away from you, is by using a threat clearing power (Evasive advantaged).
Third time I've said that.
This is fair, and it allows you to have a method to reenter stealth so stealth spiking isn't just some gimic, but a part of your rotation for long duration fights.
Guys, this is the same dang thing that any other stealth power in any other MMO game does. This is not a revolutionary idea.
Does NW have the best AOE dmg or not? And if so does is it better against MVs and up or across the board?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
And even then, it's probably effective enough that the only reason to include it for free with Night Warrior is that Night Warrior is useless without Sneak. Indeed, I'd be inclined to make Sneak a (possibly the prerequisite for Night Warrior, instead of tossing it in as a freebie. Note that this makes Night Warrior harder to acquire than other Slotted Passives, which is itself a problem that would need to be resolved.
Actually, it already does that, not as much as Blocking, but there is a small reduction in speed with sneak on.
Forgot Ego Placate unless you mean the above powers auto-reapply the Sneak. If so then that was removed as of this latest patch. It's a two-step process regardless.
Situational is not Passive. The only thing Passive about Night Warrior is the bonus to all damage buff.
I don't see it as an option I see it as a "hack" to make the entire game system conform to a specific playstyle.
To play in the way that you see as viable, why would you need another attack other than the one they give for free?
Other than that, I call that investment into a playstyle just like any other build. Things can be tweaked or changed to promote it being easier to play in that way.
Instead of picking 2-3 Active Offensives (which only one can be used every 30 seconds) a single Active Offense could work better with that playstyle.
The other stealth powers could be tuned to make having only one or two to be viable instead of the whole gamut.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
I haven't had a chance to test out the "stealth healer" concept yet. My main concern is what happens when you gain Aggro while stealthed - either through direct healing of a teammate or through "passive healing" such as what Medical Nanites cause.
Or make Sneak a Block Replacer?
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
this
/signed
I disagree with this, as Sneak as a block...well, in PvP everyone has Crippling Challenge, so Sneak is dead flat, in PvE its useless because...who blocks again?
The sneak part of the Block Replacer would only be applied when you are not being hit or attacking for like X seconds (equivalent to Out of Combat). Then stay on after X seconds upon the release of block to allow performing an Alpha Strike within it's duration.
If you can't be seen, then how would one be able to apply Crippling Challenge prior to the Alpha Strike?
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
The damage penetration applies to all attacks made when this passive is equipped as well.
Two words: Perception gear.
Three more words (incase thats not enough): Legacy Perception Gear.
...Oh by the way, Sneak's current perception benefit is far too weak, still, imo, I really think perception stealth should not rise with the rank of sneak, but be a high flat number, the bonuses you get from sneak should rank, such as damage bonus, etc.
But see numbers are something we all can work with. :biggrin: Mechanics are something we have to deal with.
I'd rather we first have solid mechanics before going LIVE.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
If you're using maintains or other non-charge powers against minions then you'll get more dps out of most other offensive passives assuming all the damage types match.
However, the slightly lower damage against henchman is more than made up for by the "extra" damage against the tougher targets in my opinion.
As for Night Warrior, let me +1 the suggestion from the last round of feedback of having it build up a damage buff based on time in stealth mode, instead of the one-note wonder that is this iteration's "sneak attack" power. Cleaner and more versatile.
That's fair. I figured it would actually be more streamlined in practice and those potential bugs are there cause of inherent problems with blocking itself that should be addressed anyways.
Something I mentioned before is that we only get one option at this moment in the PTS to accept rather than trying out two ideas to see which one works better for everyone. So with it being "good on paper". Can't really make a proof-of-concept myself now can I?
I'm curious on your ideas on potential bugs that could happen though that's at your discretion to bring up.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
This I support, I still honestly believe the LIVE version of sneak should be given the buffs it recieved in this last patch, and then add in more perception (Or my previous suggestion of giving Sneak a nonscaling very high perception stealth, like say, the equivalent of EM's advantage)
I really fail to see anything special here. In fact, all watching this video does is make me go "Oh, it's like an IO'd Stalker fighting an EB in CoV." The only difference is here you have to time Sneak right, and in CoV you'd just mash Placate every so often. Well, that and instead of just doing high flat damage, AS had a large portion of "special" (basically irresistible) damage that just ripped chunks off bosses.
AS > Placate > Total Focus/Insert-Spike-Attack-Here would actually kill or nearly kill anything that wasn't an EB or higher outright, it's why you brought a good Stalker to high level content involving any difficult normal spawn critters: done right, they could kill the LTs and Bosses with dangerous debuffs before they could get them off.
Of course, this was AFTER they buffed stalkers, because as it turned out being invisible and doing huge spike damage on a long-ish cooldown really wasn't enough to justify them over most of the other Villain classes in most people's eyes. Consider that for a moment, especially since most CO hybrid characters are more comparable to redside classes than blueside classes.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
One thing though, You could take a toon maxed for sustained damage, and do that much damage over time as a NW.
Otherwise, we agree.
The problem isn't stealth,
Isn't NW bonuses,
Isn't the damage restrictions on busting stealth.
It's solely Shadow Strikes fault.
Then the answer is to re-evaluate shadow strike....
Maybe a longer activation time?
Make it to where you can't pull it off unless you don't have aggro in practice. (not literally disabled mind you).
You keep reaching. The damage bonus from both shadow warrior and sneak is a bit on the insane side.
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Level 30 - R1 passives
Superstat - DEX 89
Demistats - EGO 77, INT 66
Electric Form - 40%
Ebon Destro - 30%
Quarry - 32% Phy, 16% non-Phy
WotW - 51% Phy melee, 37% melee, 20% Phy
NW - 32% Base, 57% Ranged sneak, 82% Melee sneak, 15% damage resist ignored.
So ranged is just a little over.
Melee is significantly higher...
But, the 25% and 50% are static, and at R3, 50% and 100%.
So, taking up to level 40, and R3 on passives
Dex - 171, Ego 111, Int 95
Electric Form - 62%
NW - 50%, 100% ranged sneak, 150% melee sneak
WotW - 80% Phy melee
Remember, you can't charge attacks while you have aggro and get the bonus damage, because if anything hits you, you get knocked out of stealth.
The only way to guarantee another stealth attack is to use a tap activate, or use a threat wipe.
So, shadow strike needs to be a charge...
Other than that, maybe lower the bonus damage, but I just don't see how it's not fair.
150 damage bonus if you don't have aggro (or a tap only), 80% damage bonus all the time without any effort.
So, ultimately, put a 10 second cooldown on sneak, and a 1 second charge time on shadow strike, and call it a day.
BTW, exiting sneak is supposed to put a 15 second cooldown on the power. That bug is hurting the balance a little.
Yes yes, and yes. I'm sure nobody would mind a removal of one of these wonderful features. I'd bet either the defense penetration or the charge time discount. Unless if looking to remove Way of the Warrior, Shadow Form, Pestilence, Kinetic Manipulation, ID mastery, Ego Form, Electric Form, Fiery Form, Ice Form, Stormbringer, Unstoppable and Targeting Computer, of course. Cause frankly, not alot of people give a damn about Shadow Strike, it's that little wanna-be-cool bonus you get when you take the wonderful decision to pick Night Warrior over any other offensive passive.
Well, it's obvious you don't even look at your numbers and you still are reaching. And the 15 second cooldown bug on sneak isn't hurting the power at all. Really, quit reaching. Regardless of the cooldown or not this is really OP. Especially since people will have that cut down to abotu 7 seconds thanks to their gear.
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It's kinda hard to think about testing anything when my main's DPS power Conflagration is doing 0 damage and costing 0 energy to use.
Yeah, I know you want us to test the new powers and such, but I couldn't even think of testing the new Alerts (which I see are going Live today totally untested - nice work!) due to this.
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I've decided to quote this, because I'm pushing this idea, It gives us an all damage passive without forcing melee only, or ranged only, to take it for stealth, and brings the passive further inline, in the quote it says removing penetration, but another idea would be to give Offensive passives charge time bonuses and not remove this passive's penetration.
It's likely to happen either today or tomorrow, as they pushed out the rest of the stuff today to LIVE.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
I hope so too. But they were actively investigating it so it's very possible that they caught it in time.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Exactly, and its what many people have been hoping for, but forcing it to be the stealth passive is becoming an issue.
That can be applied to the concept for stealth we're presented with on the PTS in general that it all feels "forced" and not natural.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
The goal of this test is to compare the passive benefits of Night Warrior versus that of Way of the Warrior in regards to damage. This is by no means a comprehensive test. The target of this test, Kigatilik, is an immobile entity without knockback attacks. Damage will vary against a different target with significant random damage or an abundance of knockbacks (Gravitar). Damage will also be modified by the target's resistance. Both charge and tap damage is tested because of Night Warrior's charge speed bonus.
Since the test is solely a damage test, ability to tank is ignored, and a healer provides the necessary survivability. While the build has sufficient available slots to add enough survivability to survive, having a healer allows the test to ignore a source of variability.
Each test is parsed for about 1 million of Kigatilik's health, continuous chaining of charged Dragon's Claws or tapping Dragon's Claw in each test.
Significant Powers:
Energy Builder: Rain of Steel
Attack: Dragon's Claws
Circle of Arcane Power (tap test)
Form of the Tiger (charge test)
Form of the Tempest (tap test)
This test ignores using any Active Offenses, Active Defenses, On-Next-Hit powers. Night Warrior's Sneak and Shadow Strike are also not used.
Constrained Variables:
Role: Melee Damage
Strength: 63
Dexterity: 524
Constitution: 18
Intelligence: 194
Ego, Presence, Recovery, Endurance: 10
Offense: 313.6
Critical Chance: 48.6%
Critical Severity: 109.4%
Passives:
Way of the Warrior: +118% Physical Melee and Bleed Damage, +97% other Melee Damage, +51% other Physical Damage, +103 Dodge Chance, +103 Avoidance, +54 Energy on target dodge.
Night Warrior: +81% Damage, 15% Damage Penetration, +31% Charge Speed, +52 Dodge Chance, +52 Avoidance.
Dragon's Claws Damage (tooltip):
Way of the Warrior + 8 Focus: 2047-4364 Charge: 0.83s
Night Warrior + 8 Focus: 1975-4212 Charge: 0.63s
Results:
WotW Tap DC: DPS: 3837.0 Damage: 1008361.7 Time: 262.1
WotW Charge DC: DPS: 4222.9 Damage: 994921.6 Time: 235.6
NW Tap DC: DPS: 4444.3 Damage: 1002191.6 Time: 225.5
NW Charge DC: DPS: 5739.3 Damage: 996351.9 Time: 173.6
Screenshots:
Way of the Warrior Setup
Way of the Warrior DPS
Night Warrior Setup
Night Warrior DPS
Thanks to @Sashamari for providing the role of healer.