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Seraphim... and energy forms in general
elfrings
Posts: 53 Arc User
The Celestial passive (Seraphim) has always kinda irked me a bit. It's a support passive, but offers very little in the way of actual support power and doesn't really offer any one particularly solid benefit which fits the set. It's a big grab bag of small benefits... which you might think would add up to one big, useful effect.... And maybe it does for players who are good at milking a power for all it's got... but it ought to be a bit more user friendly rather than only working for a handful of people.
It boosts the user's Paranormal damage a little bit [yes, it's almost as big of a percentage buff as an offensive passive... but this doesn't fit in a powerset which is not damage-based; adding a big percentage to a small number is still a small number... and it certainly doesn't make sense to be the greatest bonus in a support passive.] It also buffs the user's Paranormal & Dimensional defenses a little bit [I go into specialized defenses in the next paragraph.] It increases healing a little bit, and gives the user and allies a very small heal every few seconds. So, basically, the only actual support power it grants is a tiny HoT - all other buffs are user-only. Technically, in a very round-about sort of way, you could say the small heal bonus is a support buff. But since this is not a direct support power... it's still a stretch.
Perhaps it could be changed so that it also shares the defensive and offensive bonuses to allies - or while in the support role - like a true support passive? Otherwise, it's not really much different from any other energy form passive. Except energy form passives are all offensive passives. Seraphim doesn't really seem to fit as a support passive in my experiences.
Okay... energy form passives in general tend to irk me as well... they're too specific in their bonuses and really are only useful in very specialized circumstances, whereas most other passives are always useful against any opponent. I mean honestly... having Ice Form is only going to protect you from ice, fire and toxic? That doesn't even make sense. Your defenses with ice skin should be WEAKER against fire, if anything. It should maybe offer a small self-heal if struck by ice attacks, a debuff vs fire, and a general defense buff against all else. Yes, I know, the elemental energy forms are offensive passives - not defensive. But the offensive bonuses given don't boost attack enough for you to take out enemies before they can defeat you (particularly in an alert, if you're not grouped with a tank or if you're grouped with an ineffective noob of a tank who can't draw threat away), giving a need for a defense buff. But with a defense buff so selective as this... you may as well not even have a defense buff at all. Thus far, only Fire's offensive passive has been effective enough for me to continue using... and then only barely.
Summation: I'd like to either see Seraphim get a makeover or see a 2nd passive option offered for the Celestial powerset. It's odd that the Celestial powerset - the ultimate support powerset - would have a passive so heavily focused on damage output... and still be labeled as a support passive.
I would also like to see other elemental energy form passives... or maybe alter the existing ones so that their defensive benefits aren't so specialized.
It boosts the user's Paranormal damage a little bit [yes, it's almost as big of a percentage buff as an offensive passive... but this doesn't fit in a powerset which is not damage-based; adding a big percentage to a small number is still a small number... and it certainly doesn't make sense to be the greatest bonus in a support passive.] It also buffs the user's Paranormal & Dimensional defenses a little bit [I go into specialized defenses in the next paragraph.] It increases healing a little bit, and gives the user and allies a very small heal every few seconds. So, basically, the only actual support power it grants is a tiny HoT - all other buffs are user-only. Technically, in a very round-about sort of way, you could say the small heal bonus is a support buff. But since this is not a direct support power... it's still a stretch.
Perhaps it could be changed so that it also shares the defensive and offensive bonuses to allies - or while in the support role - like a true support passive? Otherwise, it's not really much different from any other energy form passive. Except energy form passives are all offensive passives. Seraphim doesn't really seem to fit as a support passive in my experiences.
Okay... energy form passives in general tend to irk me as well... they're too specific in their bonuses and really are only useful in very specialized circumstances, whereas most other passives are always useful against any opponent. I mean honestly... having Ice Form is only going to protect you from ice, fire and toxic? That doesn't even make sense. Your defenses with ice skin should be WEAKER against fire, if anything. It should maybe offer a small self-heal if struck by ice attacks, a debuff vs fire, and a general defense buff against all else. Yes, I know, the elemental energy forms are offensive passives - not defensive. But the offensive bonuses given don't boost attack enough for you to take out enemies before they can defeat you (particularly in an alert, if you're not grouped with a tank or if you're grouped with an ineffective noob of a tank who can't draw threat away), giving a need for a defense buff. But with a defense buff so selective as this... you may as well not even have a defense buff at all. Thus far, only Fire's offensive passive has been effective enough for me to continue using... and then only barely.
Summation: I'd like to either see Seraphim get a makeover or see a 2nd passive option offered for the Celestial powerset. It's odd that the Celestial powerset - the ultimate support powerset - would have a passive so heavily focused on damage output... and still be labeled as a support passive.
I would also like to see other elemental energy form passives... or maybe alter the existing ones so that their defensive benefits aren't so specialized.
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Post edited by elfrings on
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A passive that makes playing a hybrid support/DPS build easier is very nice. It doesn't do what a pure support passive does, but then it isnt supposed to.
You may want to look at it for what it does, which can be very nice, than what it doesnt do.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
You needn't have an "aura" ability to be considered a support character...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
My biggest gripe however is that I like aura effects when I have element-based heroes, but really don't like the passives which provide them. There are active powers which provide auras, but only for 15 seconds. Enough people like the existing energy forms the way they are to where I don't foresee any significant change to them in the future. A more realistic suggestion would be to see alternative versions of them offered. Perhaps defense-focused energy forms other than Force's PFF? (Sample names: Glacial Skin, Blazing Aura, Ionic Field) Or maybe a defensive form rather than a defensive passive which provides an aura?
It would also be great if energy forms' auras had a toggle for the visual effect rather than only being triggered by combat. Maybe this option could be a 0-point advantage, like Enrage's growth advantage.
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It provides all of the benefits of an energy form offensive passive, not counting role modifiers, plus benefits not available to an offensive passive character.
Seraphim is a great passive, for the right build. This is true of most passives. If you use them as designed they perform well, if not...well, its not the passive that is the problem.
Again, all of the benefits of an offensive energy form passive plus more.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
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Seraphim affects ALL Paranormal Damage (Ego, Dimentional, Magic). That's Telekinetic, Telepathy, Celestial, Darkness, & Sorcery. Also, go take a look at every offensive passive out there, they are all "very specific damage bonuses". So this claim that the bonus is a wasted effect is totally unfounded and invalid. Also, have you ever actually used Celestial for DPS? The powers do infact hit for heavy damage comparable to all other ranged powersets. They don't sacrifice their offensive capability to gain healing ability like similar skills in other games do.
The powerset may not have a large selection of attacks like other sets, but it doesn't need the large attack selection.
I have a Shadow/Celestial hero that, it may come as a surprise to you, does more damage with her celestial abilities than her darkness powers are capable of.
None of these are high damage based. Darkness has one or two attacks which can dish out some damage, but why make a character so stale & limited as to revolve around one or two moves? These are all primarily secondary effects based power sets (fear, stun, etc.) A damage buff is largely wasted here. The point still stands.
All the same, the main point is being completely ignored. Let's please get back to topic.
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As for not being high damage trees, you must not have really -tried- some of the specs you can make for telekinesis or magic. They can make some scary powerful builds, especially a TK lance crit build or something with skarns bane.
Seraphim, when used w/ drain life + a way of applying fear + vampiric sympathy makes for an exceptional PBAoE healer & DPSer all in one!
Regardless, I don't really see a problem w/ Seraphim...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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A healing bonus that small is not enough to call it a support power. If the healing bonus increased and damage bonus decreased while in the support role rather than hybrid role, okay. I could see that being more of a support passive. But as it is, it's almost entirely a damage role passive which can only be used in hybrid or support roles. Seraphim's selective defense buff is stronger than the heal buff, but it's not a defense power either.
A damage percentage buff added to a powerset with low damage output, a small selective defense buff, a small heal buff and a tiny HoT doesn't add up to a very powerful passive. (It's like saying owning 0.001% share of 1000 stock offers makes you the most powerful man in the world. :P) It's a diverse passive. I'll give it that. But when the user-only buff to damage output is the greatest bonus, it no longer fits the description of a support role passive.
And as I said in the post just a moment ago, bear in mind that Celestial is a support role set. Other powersets are not open to players who don't have the option of freeform. Celestial should have a passive which actually fits its set as a support passive. The Radiant only has 3 mediocre-damage attacks (not including the energy builder): Rebuke, Vengeance, and Expulse. That's it. And yet its passive is almost all about the damage output. Weird.
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...I'm sorry some of you are taking such great offense to this particular power being called out. But aside from Seraphim being mislabeled as a support passive, I had other points regarding other passives. Let's please move on and read the entire post rather than just focusing on the first sentence or two, spamming the same opinion and derailing the thread. Thanks.
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I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. There is no pure Celestial AT. The Radiant is hybridized Celestial with Arcane. So, the only AT with celestial powers already goes out of set.
So in truth, if you want to play Celestial. You pretty much HAVE to be FF or Radiant...so yea, you get other powersets.
You've apparently never tried an archetype. Or did you misread my post? You don't get to choose your powers when you take that route.
The only effective arguments I'm seeing is it works great with *this* power or *that* power... that's great... for freeform. And it would serve better if it were an offensive passive. Which further illustrates my point. The default passive for a powerset which is based in support powers should be focused more on providing support benefits.
I know, a lot of you probably have ADHD and can't get past the first few lines of a post without hitting reply. This is so frustrating for someone as verbose as I am. :P But PLEASE read all the way through before responding. I'm not saying Seraphim shouldn't exist. I'm not even saying it should be altered, unless there's no intention to ever offer an alternative passive under the Celestial set. So - everyone - stop getting all defensive, put down your torches & pitchforks, and READ please. Thank you.
Now I get that some of you can get a benefit from Seraphim. Hooray for you. You can also get some benefit from a broken toaster - it makes a great footstool for little people, can serve well as a doorstop, and Macguyver can turn one into a timebomb in a pinch. But it's still a broken toaster.
(And with that, 5 people have logged on to create a Fire / Power Armor hybrid named Broken Toaster. lol)
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Okay, so...98% of your post is ranting about seraphim, 2% is ranting about energy forms apparently not making sense with resistances.
Now, you can't expect people to not get up in arms about the obvious main focus of the post. Don't want people to get uppity about it? Don't make most of the post about it.
As for other energy forms, I agree that more alternatives would be nice, though I think their resistances being what they are should stay as they are.
As for seraphim, again...it's made so that you can have the benefits of support role while still being able to do some decent damage while soloing, as well as adding more damage output to the team through your own attacks. I DO think it would be nice for the bonus healing on seraphim to also buff shield strength as well, but as it stands, I think it's fine. It meshes very well with hybrid damage/healer build darkness, celestial, magic, and psionic characters while not being too overly magic-looking.
Edit- Also, you keep saying to read the rest of your post. You just think people aren't, but chances are they are but don't really give a rat's arse about the second part. That's just how some people are, and discussing one of the main points you are trying to make is not derailing a thread.
Why? Most of them don't even make sense. Like I illustrated, Ice Form provides additional protection against fire (which is traditionally the greatest weakness of ice....) But... I suppose I have a tendency to think of passive powers as being natural extensions of the character rather than tools. Ice DOES soothe burns. Against fire itself, ice melts, boils and scalds. I could see a cold aura soothing fire damage enough to justify giving a defensive benefit, but Ice Form implies that your body is either composed of ice or sheathed in a second skin of it. Fire's gonna hurt. A lot. It really needs to be rethought. (Or maybe I've played too much Pokemon in my lifetime. LOL) And, as I've said a few times, it needs a more general defensive bonus even if it's a very small one. I've rarely ever received any defensive benefit from an energy form. Too selective.
I DO get that, but if it's going to be a support passive it should give a stronger support benefit. As I suggested before (and which seems to be repeatedly read over) it should offer its current buff while in Hybrid roles, and while in Support role offer weaker offense and stronger support bonuses. It would just make sense. I'd like to use Seraphim, but it just doesn't work with any support character I've ever created (out of the 40+ total characters in my repertoire.) I wind up having to select a Magic support passive... which visually just doesn't work for a celestial themed character.
True. But spamming the same point repeatedly, especially when it's already been addressed does derail a thread. Most people tend to skip to the last few posts and perpetuate what appears to be a valid point. (On the other hand, I DO tend to subconsciously set standards for others in society which seem reasonable but which are apparently higher than many are capable of delivering. So I suppose expecting too much from people could be considered *my* failing. :P)
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Now, to pose another point of view on it...being coated in ice could make fire hurt even worse, but it also -would- provide more resistance than just having it sear your bare skin, and having an aura of fire could potentially melt ice attacks coming in, again making it less painful. As for poison damage, I...don't really get it myself.
Now, if we could pick a damage type to be weak against for some kind of advantage on our characters? Yes, i could totally get behind that, I would love the option to further customize my character, but I do think it should be seperate from what your passive is.
My 12-20k TK hits, BEFORE On Alert, are feeling a bit sad that they are not considered high damage.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Sounds like you think that the Celestial set needs a review...welcome to what many of us have been saying for quite some time now.
Even so, Seraphim itself provides a buff greater than what is gained from Electric Form, Fire Form, Ice Form, Kinetic Manipulation, and Stormbringer.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I was thinking about that the other day. I vaguely remember rolling up some characters decades ago using the Heroes (later to be called Champions) roleplaying system, and seem to recall part of the process included choosing or rolling for weaknesses and the effects they cause. This seems to be omitted from the MMO... but then I have no idea if it remained in the rulebooks past 1990. :P That would add some flavor to the game. Perhaps it could be voluntary, but with an incentive - like... you could receive an additional power if you choose a weakness? (Just pulling an incentive off the top of my head.) Perhaps the weaknesses available to choose from would depend on the powersets you've selected from thus far in character development?
My Ice characters tend to select Invulnerability rather than Ice Form. It would be nice if there were an alternative defensive passive energy form in the Ice powerset which worked a bit like Invulnerability but... perhaps the defense bonus gets weaker every few seconds as you take damage (particularly from fire?) but gets stronger every few seconds when you're not taking damage - a bit like PFF, and provides a small heal when hit by Ice damage.
Speaking of PFF, perhaps PFF regeneration could be accelerated when hit by energy powers? That might make it a bit less weak in the eyes of players. It would also be nice if the PFF effect were updated. The "bubble" doesn't sit well with me. In fact, with the right combination of travel power and attack, sometimes it looks like my character is sitting ON the bubble. lol It would be nice if instead it were more of an aura.
Also... since there's energy forms... and there's forms, which provide energy as stacks accumulate... I could imagine new players getting confused by the difference. So maybe the elemental/energy powersets could have their own forms which provide energy forms rather than (or perhaps in addition to) being provided by the passives. (Although... is there a purpose to the energy form status anymore? There used to be some attacks which consumed the user's energy form when used, and prevented it from reactivating for a few seconds. But they don't do this anymore.)
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As far as energy forms go - yeah, they probably should do more. The interaction w/ certain powers is likely a remnant of what they originally wanted them to do - that is, to reduce the cost or otherwise improve certain powers. It's too bad they really didn't go further with it...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums