Warlord has far, far less personal power than Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, or Gravitar. He can stand up to a team of heroes alone. Doctor Destroyer fought dozens of heroes and killed several of them at the Battle of Detroit.
Yet Shadow Destroyer, he has bested the real Doctor Destroyer, only requires a team of five heroes to defeat him.
You'd think that the Hzeel technology he and his associates use would at least make them more formidable than they currently are, and according to the Champions IP itself he's listed among the "Omega-class" threats to the world. The list includes: Gravitar, Istvatha V'han, Mechanon, Menton, PSI, Takofanes, the Warlord and his organization.
Incidentally below this are the "Delta-class" level. They feature: VIPER, ARGENT, Dark Seraph and the Crowns of Krim, DEMON, Eurostar, Holocaust, Masquerade, Teleios, the Ultimates, and Dr. Yin Wu.
It just seems odd that some on the Omega-class list are treated as being practically pushovers in-game. The Warlord storming into the heart of Millennium City (superhero central these days) without his War Machine at his side makes him look incredibly stupid, and not the world threatening power he's supposed to represent.
Yet Shadow Destroyer, he has bested the real Doctor Destroyer, only requires a team of five heroes to defeat him.
You'd think that the Hzeel technology he and his associates use would at least make them more formidable than they currently are, and according to the Champions IP itself he's listed among the "Omega-class" threats to the world. The list includes: Gravitar, Istvatha V'han, Mechanon, Menton, PSI, Takofanes, the Warlord and his organization.
Incidentally below this are the "Delta-class" level. They feature: VIPER, ARGENT, Dark Seraph and the Crowns of Krim, DEMON, Eurostar, Holocaust, Masquerade, Teleios, the Ultimates, and Dr. Yin Wu.
It just seems odd that some on the Omega-class list are treated as being practically pushovers in-game.
Both times you fight Shadow Destroyer he either leaves without you actually defeating him (NemCon) or you have Dr. Destroyer himself fighting him with you. I wouldn't say that makes Shadow Destroyer weak. Warlord has vast resources, alot of personal power, has killed more superheroes over his career than any villain but Doctor Destroyer, and is active worldwide. He's very much a threat to world security, but his suit simply isn't as powerful as Doctor Destroyer's. Gravitar on the other hand regularly beats up entire teams of superheroes and villains. She lacks any of Warlord's resources, but her personal power is so great she's very firmly in UNTIL's Omega class.
As for the absence of the War Machine, I do wish they'd included them. However Warlord, unlike Doctor Destroyer, loves to lead from the front and tangle with heroes. It's not unlikely he'd lead an operation like the one at Harmon labs himself.
I also checked, and PSI is definitely listed as a Delta-class threat. Where did you find that they were listed as Omega?
I haven't read the 6th edition book yet, but I remember from the 5th edition "Champions Universe" sourcebook (pages 39-40) that PSI was listed as being an Omega-class threat.
I haven't read the 6th edition book yet, but I remember from the 5th edition "Champions Universe" sourcebook that PSI was listed as being an Omega-class threat.
I just checked the 6th Champions Universe and villain team book, and PSI is definitely listed as a Delta-class threat. Though of note is a villains classification only represent's UNTIL's view of the villain as a threat to world security. Masquerade, for example, is listed as a Delta-class threat, not because of the villain's personal power or desire to rule the world, but because his/her shapechanging power lets them flawlessly infiltrate government installations. The Warlord is definitely a threat to world security and very deserving of his place on the Omega list, but his personal power and resources aren't as great as the likes of Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer.
I have a question; are all Omega-level threat supervillains like Gravitar, Dr. Destroyer & Mechanon, going to be/have 10-man alerts? If so, shouldn't the Warlord alert also be a 10-man one too?
There is a mysterious god-force in the hero (super and otherwise) realm called the WRITER. A Writer require a villain to be taken down by nothing less then a group of heroes. Or it can elevate the villain to require the sources of an entire world to right. Or be diminished to where a single hero can fight and defeat...for a time.
In super-heroes comics, the writer determines what happens in the story. A super villain can be power enough that an entire team of super heroes to take on. Or it can be story where a single hero can fight and defeat the villain.
Warlord and his army may be an Omega Level threat. But in this case, it's apparent just small unit of his Shadow Army and himself doing a smash and grab. He's not bring everything to bear on his scheme. And his personal power level is not Grond or Gravitar level. So a group of super heroes (should) be enough to stop him scheme even if they aren't able to defeat Warlord once and for all. The 5-man Alert is about right in terms of the Lore.
Gravitar, on the other hand, is an entirely different plateau of power. Her idea of taking of taking over is taking hostages levitating the Capitol Building in Washington, DC a several hundred feet in the air. And threatening to drop it unless the US surrenders to her. She battled power hero groups while levitating the Capitol Building. And IIRC, She was really defeated. It's more like the heroes saved the Capitol building from falling and she got bored with fighting.
There is a mysterious god-force in the hero (super and otherwise) realm called the WRITER.
And thus is the fundamental problem we come to over and over. Seeing as players are ALSO "the Writer" when they make their own characters here in CO, there will always be disagreements over how powerful things should be because some people are playing the Punisher and some people are playing Superman.
This is before getting into the dozen shades of gray between the two, not to mention the fact that power is relative to the context, I. E. I remember someone talking about how Sakura makes no sense being able to take on Magneto in Marvel VS Capcom 2 on these very boards, despite anyone who actually knows the source material knows that some of the martial artists in Street Fighter are capable of leveling cities themselves. Meaning Sakura's power, while debatable of how well, is definitely capable of rivaling that of a mutant's.
1. Make movement controls clunky or movement generally slow (think of movement in Diablo or compare the run speed of a WoW character to something like Acro here)
2. Make things that kill the players depending on where they're standing (close to each other, in fire/toxic gunk/whatever)
3. Have the boss do things to disrupt their movement on top of the lousy movement controls (snares, knocks, adds that are faster than they are, disabling the main travel movements indoors/in-combat)
4. Collect your mountains of cash from people joining for your "challenging", "in-depth", "dynamic", "innovative" boss content. (This is where you do the ???? and Profit" steps, btw)
This may have been sparked by frustration at the latest Invulnerable Minions/Plagued/Arcane/Jailer/Fast Elite pack encounter in Inferno. :mad:
Hey .. they had only 7-8 years time to make that game .. so ist fully understandable that a small Company
like Blizzard hadn't had the time to test the difficulty in Inferno in that time
Finally got a team together for this.
Still too easy. Outside of learning a couple triggers this alert is a no brainer.
I know I know...random pugs need to be able to complete this which really kills any potential for a truly challenging alert. Please though consider adding in something that requires team coordination and attentiveness to complete beyond running out of a bubble.
There needs to be phase changes and mechanic mix ups to keep people on their toes. As it is it's just a glorified smash alert.
Know what would be funny? There seems to be some support with typing something in the chat box and having npc's react (Aftershock with Ellie). Gravitar has quite the mouth on her, be fun to toss some insults back and have her react.
Not this please..
I don't like fighting rooms!
A badass boss is one thing, leaping to platform A to pull switch B so that you can access C is Tomb Raider stuff.
I have a copy of Alice the Madness Returns which is unplayed now. It's not that I can't win the fights it's that I can't jump from one f****ing platform to another fast or accurately enough to get past that level.
I didn't buy it coz I thought it would be an interesting challenge - I got it for the story and I am locked out of this.
I doubt that CO is going that route and I thought that reply #43 had some very good suggestions (for a challenging game) but please no room fighting.
Can I just say that in the boss fight you are talking about those 8 crystals were right behind the boss and involved no running or jumping to get to. It was about team work and communication not platforming.
Also if Cryptic want to outsource some of the alert design I am available for hire (That's a genuine thing I'm a game dev with my own company).
Its a simplistic game mechanic of just tank 'n' spanking and the faults listed above are valid.
Personally I would prefer something with a bit of tactic; perhaps some troops could be struggling to set up 3 anti-grav generators within her range and you have to defend them and the generators while each is brought online (which when activated would weaken her considerably).
Custom animations for Gravitar on the intro would be nice as whatever you release you are drawing from the same old pool of tried 'n' tested; /point - /menace etc.
The Voice-over artist did such a passionate and expressive job of the two or three lines Gravitar has in the alert, its crying out to be expanded on a little.
Comic-panels and very brief skippable cutscene to expand on the introduction to set the scene of your entry.
More detail on the warzone and surrounding details. Apparently a skyscraper can break mid-section and crash sideways falling into another without any of the windows breaking or debris, and the surrounding enviroment where you fight is being to cosmic-level force detonations and yet all the leaves are still on the trees and all the nearby building windows are intact. In short little enviromental details.
No perma lockout, there is no reason on a cosmic of her calibre and the length the fight lasts, that the containment field could not be deactivated for a few seconds to allow Champions re-entry every couple of minutes.
I would also like to see on entry to the alert, the dropping of those resurrecting Primus serum injectors devices to your inventory.
Gravitar should still very much be thought as a work in progress. With today's patch I decided to give this alert another try to see if you guys made it a little bit more forgiving on everyone.
To my dismay this alert is now harder then ever! Every attempt I failed. I even think there was a bug or something that split the 5 man teams into different instances maybe, because there were only 5 of us on the map(*Note- this only happen to me once so far.)
I don't know what you guys changed, but she seems to be hitting even harder then before, and takes even longer to get her health down(prolly due to the fact that 3/4 of the teams die in the first 2 minutes of the fight.)
Right now her difficulty is set pretty nicely for a full 10 man team of Level 40s with all the best gear. Unfortunately I've been finding that most teams have maybe 3-5 Level 40s in them. The fact that you have set the minimum level requirement to enter to 35 needs to be taken into consideration more when looking at the difficulty of the Boss.
*shrug*
Don't see any difference from before...
Could a Dev drop in and say exactly what was changed?
(I know, wishful thinking...)
Seriously, I see no difference beside the spawnpoint...
Maybe... oooooh... Does it prevent relog/rezz?
(Wouldn't know, not using it... Got enough DC and crashes without doing them on my own...)
Comments
Yet Shadow Destroyer, he has bested the real Doctor Destroyer, only requires a team of five heroes to defeat him.
You'd think that the Hzeel technology he and his associates use would at least make them more formidable than they currently are, and according to the Champions IP itself he's listed among the "Omega-class" threats to the world. The list includes: Gravitar, Istvatha V'han, Mechanon, Menton, PSI, Takofanes, the Warlord and his organization.
Incidentally below this are the "Delta-class" level. They feature: VIPER, ARGENT, Dark Seraph and the Crowns of Krim, DEMON, Eurostar, Holocaust, Masquerade, Teleios, the Ultimates, and Dr. Yin Wu.
It just seems odd that some on the Omega-class list are treated as being practically pushovers in-game. The Warlord storming into the heart of Millennium City (superhero central these days) without his War Machine at his side makes him look incredibly stupid, and not the world threatening power he's supposed to represent.
Both times you fight Shadow Destroyer he either leaves without you actually defeating him (NemCon) or you have Dr. Destroyer himself fighting him with you. I wouldn't say that makes Shadow Destroyer weak. Warlord has vast resources, alot of personal power, has killed more superheroes over his career than any villain but Doctor Destroyer, and is active worldwide. He's very much a threat to world security, but his suit simply isn't as powerful as Doctor Destroyer's. Gravitar on the other hand regularly beats up entire teams of superheroes and villains. She lacks any of Warlord's resources, but her personal power is so great she's very firmly in UNTIL's Omega class.
As for the absence of the War Machine, I do wish they'd included them. However Warlord, unlike Doctor Destroyer, loves to lead from the front and tangle with heroes. It's not unlikely he'd lead an operation like the one at Harmon labs himself.
I also checked, and PSI is definitely listed as a Delta-class threat. Where did you find that they were listed as Omega?
I haven't read the 6th edition book yet, but I remember from the 5th edition "Champions Universe" sourcebook (pages 39-40) that PSI was listed as being an Omega-class threat.
I just checked the 6th Champions Universe and villain team book, and PSI is definitely listed as a Delta-class threat. Though of note is a villains classification only represent's UNTIL's view of the villain as a threat to world security. Masquerade, for example, is listed as a Delta-class threat, not because of the villain's personal power or desire to rule the world, but because his/her shapechanging power lets them flawlessly infiltrate government installations. The Warlord is definitely a threat to world security and very deserving of his place on the Omega list, but his personal power and resources aren't as great as the likes of Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer.
There is a mysterious god-force in the hero (super and otherwise) realm called the WRITER. A Writer require a villain to be taken down by nothing less then a group of heroes. Or it can elevate the villain to require the sources of an entire world to right. Or be diminished to where a single hero can fight and defeat...for a time.
In super-heroes comics, the writer determines what happens in the story. A super villain can be power enough that an entire team of super heroes to take on. Or it can be story where a single hero can fight and defeat the villain.
Warlord and his army may be an Omega Level threat. But in this case, it's apparent just small unit of his Shadow Army and himself doing a smash and grab. He's not bring everything to bear on his scheme. And his personal power level is not Grond or Gravitar level. So a group of super heroes (should) be enough to stop him scheme even if they aren't able to defeat Warlord once and for all. The 5-man Alert is about right in terms of the Lore.
Gravitar, on the other hand, is an entirely different plateau of power. Her idea of taking of taking over is taking hostages levitating the Capitol Building in Washington, DC a several hundred feet in the air. And threatening to drop it unless the US surrenders to her. She battled power hero groups while levitating the Capitol Building. And IIRC, She was really defeated. It's more like the heroes saved the Capitol building from falling and she got bored with fighting.
And thus is the fundamental problem we come to over and over. Seeing as players are ALSO "the Writer" when they make their own characters here in CO, there will always be disagreements over how powerful things should be because some people are playing the Punisher and some people are playing Superman.
This is before getting into the dozen shades of gray between the two, not to mention the fact that power is relative to the context, I. E. I remember someone talking about how Sakura makes no sense being able to take on Magneto in Marvel VS Capcom 2 on these very boards, despite anyone who actually knows the source material knows that some of the martial artists in Street Fighter are capable of leveling cities themselves. Meaning Sakura's power, while debatable of how well, is definitely capable of rivaling that of a mutant's.
We do defeat him there. We do not capture him, but that is something different.
Hey .. they had only 7-8 years time to make that game .. so ist fully understandable that a small Company
like Blizzard hadn't had the time to test the difficulty in Inferno in that time
Ohh .. wait ..
Still too easy. Outside of learning a couple triggers this alert is a no brainer.
I know I know...random pugs need to be able to complete this which really kills any potential for a truly challenging alert. Please though consider adding in something that requires team coordination and attentiveness to complete beyond running out of a bubble.
There needs to be phase changes and mechanic mix ups to keep people on their toes. As it is it's just a glorified smash alert.
Know what would be funny? There seems to be some support with typing something in the chat box and having npc's react (Aftershock with Ellie). Gravitar has quite the mouth on her, be fun to toss some insults back and have her react.
http://champions-online.com/release-notes
Nice to know that she'll drop costume parts.
Can I just say that in the boss fight you are talking about those 8 crystals were right behind the boss and involved no running or jumping to get to. It was about team work and communication not platforming.
Also if Cryptic want to outsource some of the alert design I am available for hire (That's a genuine thing I'm a game dev with my own company).
Personally I would prefer something with a bit of tactic; perhaps some troops could be struggling to set up 3 anti-grav generators within her range and you have to defend them and the generators while each is brought online (which when activated would weaken her considerably).
Custom animations for Gravitar on the intro would be nice as whatever you release you are drawing from the same old pool of tried 'n' tested; /point - /menace etc.
The Voice-over artist did such a passionate and expressive job of the two or three lines Gravitar has in the alert, its crying out to be expanded on a little.
Comic-panels and very brief skippable cutscene to expand on the introduction to set the scene of your entry.
More detail on the warzone and surrounding details. Apparently a skyscraper can break mid-section and crash sideways falling into another without any of the windows breaking or debris, and the surrounding enviroment where you fight is being to cosmic-level force detonations and yet all the leaves are still on the trees and all the nearby building windows are intact. In short little enviromental details.
No perma lockout, there is no reason on a cosmic of her calibre and the length the fight lasts, that the containment field could not be deactivated for a few seconds to allow Champions re-entry every couple of minutes.
I would also like to see on entry to the alert, the dropping of those resurrecting Primus serum injectors devices to your inventory.
To my dismay this alert is now harder then ever! Every attempt I failed. I even think there was a bug or something that split the 5 man teams into different instances maybe, because there were only 5 of us on the map(*Note- this only happen to me once so far.)
I don't know what you guys changed, but she seems to be hitting even harder then before, and takes even longer to get her health down(prolly due to the fact that 3/4 of the teams die in the first 2 minutes of the fight.)
Right now her difficulty is set pretty nicely for a full 10 man team of Level 40s with all the best gear. Unfortunately I've been finding that most teams have maybe 3-5 Level 40s in them. The fact that you have set the minimum level requirement to enter to 35 needs to be taken into consideration more when looking at the difficulty of the Boss.
Don't see any difference from before...
Could a Dev drop in and say exactly what was changed?
(I know, wishful thinking...)
Seriously, I see no difference beside the spawnpoint...
Maybe... oooooh... Does it prevent relog/rezz?
(Wouldn't know, not using it... Got enough DC and crashes without doing them on my own...)
Occasionally, I'm in one with NO rezzers. Fortunately, I have 2 SG banks full of Servitor Serum and Triumphant Recoveries.