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The Kings of Edom
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Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
One of my guildies asked me about where she could find some info about them, and I pointed her in the direction of Arcane Adversaries. Are there any books with more indepth info on them?
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there seems to be online game lore of them. perhaps this lore could be located in some wiki? some of the lore bits were several paragraphs each......
http://www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/The_Harrowing
Also, the kings of edom, in general:
http://www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/The%20Kings%20of%20Edom
@Lohr: Arcane Adversaries gives way, way more information than what is available ingame
Yes, I am aware of that, thanks for pointing that out though. :rolleyes:
think we'll ever have the chance to punch one in the shin~or go mad by staring at what our brains cannot conceave to be its shin?
I think there avatars are about as close as well ever get.
I may be incorrect on that, but if I'm not, there isn't a lot mroe you really need to know to really get the picture of what sort of power scale we're talking.
Viper were ordered to stop the last summoning attempt by Nama as the kings and Nama are enemies. Vipers interference is mentioned by the contact for daemon flame i think
Specifically, Nama and Sharna-Gorak have crossed paths in the past, and they are enemies. When Luther attempted to summon him, Nama called VIPER to intervene.
Also, yes, the Kings are ultra-godlike. Even the weaker Kings could pretty much remake large portions of the universe to their liking, and if one were freed it would probably take a massive undertaking by Earth's mystic heroes to even hope to have a chance. The fortunate thing is that the Quaternion is well-defended by the various divine entities who occupy it, so Earth might be able to avoid being completely destroyed if a King were freed.
You are essentially correct. According to the lore of the PnP game, the Kings of Edom are unlike any of the demons that fill human mythology and religion (and who are more or less real in the Champions Universe). Those are manifestations of understandably human evil, but the Edomite races are completely alien in thought and desire. As their creator Dean Shomshak wrote, it's not that the Kings of Edom are evil; they're just higher up on the food chain.
In the mystic community of the CU, the word is out that DEMON serves something a lot more dangerous than conventional evil, and the organization is shunned by every other occult villain. Even the lords of the Netherworld (i.e. "hell") have forbidden their minions from having anything to do with DEMON.
Sadly, Earth can't count on the gods of the Quarternion for protection from the Kings of Edom or other extra-dimensional supernatural conquerors like Tyrannon or Skarn. Page 61 of The Mystic World states that divine magic, being a product of human belief, has no effect on creatures from the Outer Planes. In one infamous incident Skarn invaded Faerie and personally defeated the war gods of six pantheons. He could use all his powers against them while they could only employ their physical strength.
The purpose of this within a RPG context, of course, is that Earth's superheroes can't count on a literal deus ex machina to save them from such entities. They have to step up and do the job themselves, like real heroes.
Broadly speaking, something that is qliphothic has gone so far astray from its original purpose that it now actually opposes this original purpose. In this sense, a corrupt judge could be described as being qliphothic in a mundane sort of way.
Thus, the Kings of Edom can be seen as living personifications of self-negation and self-defeat. Their power may be vast in physical terms, but what benefit can be derived in the end from, say, knowledge that harms the user? Whether or not all evil is self-defeating, as some people say, remains a philosophical question. But the qliphothic certainly eats its own tail. The risk is only that, in destroying themselves again and again, the Kings also could bring down the Champions universe in the process.
I'm impressed that the Champions IP has managed to capture the essence of the concept in their treatment of the Kings.
Youll note the use of face tentacles..and comments in the arcane adversaries book of creatures made of angles...or curves...unable to manifest thru anything save a corner etc. etc. Very reminescent of ol H.P.'s stuff.
I'm guessing this is a major game mechanic and would require a lorra coding to bolt onto CO as well as some seriously otherworldly rendering/art design.
See here for Shoggoth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14q6P3FJfxQ
And here for Polyp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAFOrXS0bbg&feature=related
How does this mesh with DEMON members summoning demons to do their bidding as a regular function of gameplay?
And, why are demons pouring out of the Qlipthothic rifts in the downtown area?
As for demon summoning demons....it states demons will NOT consort with them in any way willingly...sadly with the proper rituals demon forces servitude out of them whether they like it or not....and thats another reason that demons,devils and the netherrealm in general hates them as much as pretty much everyone else....including most evil mystic villains.
In fact most evil mystic villains will team up without much prodding to fight demon and the crud they summon just out of fact as even they know what will happen if demon wins.
As for why they are pouring out of rifts in downtown MC....go thru that story arc that starts near the magic lantern bookstore with the lady outside when you get to that level :P It explains it.
Yeah, I've actually finished that arc (twice), as well as Demonflame.
Now, granted, I didn't read a lot of the text on the second playthrough, but I did on the first, and I'm still at a bit of a loss for why demons would be pouring through Qliphothic rifts, and not... well, Qliphothic Horrors.
As for the summoning, yeah, that does make sense.
If you read more about the Qliphoth in The Mystic World, you'll find that while the Kings of Edom and their followers, the Edomites, came from there originally, those dimensions are not necessarily the prisons of the Kings. There are numerous Qliphothic worlds, with other creatures than Edomites inhabiting them, as well as other powerful entities like the Ravens of Dispersion. One Qliphothic dimension, the Shining Darkness, is described in fair detail in TMW.
However, you're quite right in that the Qliphoth in the PnP game is meant to be totally alien to our universe and life-forms, not an analogue to Hell. Pursuant to that, please see my post below.
Perhaps it was just technically easier for Cryptic to animate humanoid demons, rather than masses of tentacles or abstract collections of lines, as some of the PnP Edomites are described. And truly alien environments like the Shining Darkness would be pretty rough to render in graphic form, and probably harder for people to relate to than more standard Hellscapes.
Okay, from a development standpoint it makes sense if, the Qliphothic horrors only got added in with Demonflame (I think the Trey Kings in Vibora Bay predate them, but, that was still a later addition to the game), so the developers used fire demons as stand ins. That makes sense. But it still leads to a weird situation where creatures that (apparently) shouldn't be, are emerging from the rifts in downtown.
Well the last guy you fight in that arc is a big baddy and hes spose to be wearing the *Crown of Krim* Which is another er....discrepency. Dark Seraph is the one sposedly wearing that thing yet this other guy you fight has it.
The Crown of Krim's background is sketchy but from what i gather its some ungodly powerful artifact from the turakian era(i think) and hes using it to create a new empire on earth....though why choose a business district in a bustling city and not some remote location eludes me :P
Heh...maybe we should ask them animate an angler....or a color from space? :P so we can go mad playing CO lol
Well, to be precise, there are six Crowns of Krim, each worn by one member of a team called "the Crowns of Krim," led by Dark Seraph, who wears the Iron Crown, most powerful of the six. The other villains are called Bloodstone (Blood Crown), Eclipse (Shadow Crown), Phoenix (Shining Crown), Force (Golden Crown), and Temblor (Stone Crown). The Dragon Crown worn by Takofanes is also connected to the Crowns of Krim; he and the Crowns all date from the antediluvian Turakian Age.
Although the six villains often work together, they may also pursue their own individual goals.
Judging by the Crowns of Krim lore drops I've actually managed to find, it looks like they're working together at the moment. Though, I'll admit, I'm a bit mystified as to how exactly they tie into this.
First question: Although this isn't covered very well in the game lore (because the writers thought that the Qliphothic was just another world for 'hell'), DEMON cultists usually summon creatures from the Netherworld, hell planes that are inside the normal hierarchy of the universe. The Netherworld basically encompasses all the hells that might exist; they're the embodiment of sinful nature, hedonism, and punishments for those associated sinful natures. In the Vibora arc, Therakiel is trying to incite a war between the Netherworld and Elysium; the Qliphothic is not involved there. DEMON cultists can also summon Qliphothic horrors too; there's nothing stopping any given cultist from learning those kinds of summons, but they are less common in the lore versus Netherworld creatures.
As for why demons are coming out of Qliphothic rifts downtown, it's somewhat explained in the game's story text. Honestly though, the Qliphothic was not well-written early on, so you have characters like Bloodstone associating with it when the Netherworld would be more appropriate. A lot of the more lore-appropriate mystic roleplayers disregard that particular story just because it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the mystic lore in the books.
The background text about the Crowns Of Krim in Champions Villains Vol. 2 more or less states that, but it's not something that's reflected on their PnP character sheets, and in any case it doesn't appear to be a master/slave relationship. The other Crowns are described as sometimes disobeying or disputing Dark Seraph; it's implied that he commands them as much through threat of force as through innate allegiance to him.
OTOH Takofanes' Dragon Crown is believed to be able to bind the Crowns of Krim to the Undying King's service, if he can immobilize them long enough to perform the necessary ritual. He did this during the Turakian Age, giving the six Crowns to the satraps of his empire. Takofanes seems to be hunting the Crowns to try and capture them; they've clashed a number of times over the years.
Well explained, Auspicious.
Interestingly, the history of the Crowns of Krim in Champions Villains Vol. 2 states that they have worked with DEMON in the past for mutual benefit, as have other mystic villains; but now that the Mystic World is aware of DEMON's true allegiance the Crowns avoid them. I suppose the arc with Bloodstone could be considered from a time when he was still ignorant of the true situation.
It is annoying for us purists, but I'm sure most of people playing this game don't know the difference between Qliphothic and Netherworld monsters, and I suspect the majority wouldn't care if they did know.
I must be the only one that's actually collected all teh in game lore
Anyways, from Bloodstone's orders pertaining to this point of why Bloodstone is still there with DEMON;
Second paragraph just talks about your character. This part of the story is over two years old (an inherent flaw in theme park mechanics as the story remains time locked basically even when new parts are added thus creating confusion) so of course, this part assumes that you've not trafficked with DEMON, Qliphoth or any of that non-sense, but this letter more than states that the Crowns are well aware of DEMON and have no intention of being friends.
Also, an excerpt from in-game. This does not in any way state that they believe that Qliphoth was the same as Hell, but instead were using Qliphothic energy to bind the demons;
So far, it all points to a bigger story coming in the future, perhaps even a raid encounter to face off against the Crowns and perhaps and avatar of their master?
Looking at the problem from another perspective, Qliphothic beings may choose to mimic the appearance or actions of other entities for a variety of reasons. Looking like a stereotypical demon and shooting fire does not preclude a more exotic true nature.
Finally, just because something came through a gate from a Qliphothic realm does not mean that it originated there. By that rule, the Champions are Qliphothic beings now too!
ed. for sp.
No offense Needle, but, while a lot of this is sound logic, it kinda strikes me as... trying to justify events after the fact, rather than explain them.
While we've seen Qliphothic beings impersonate other things (IIRC), but it doesn't seem like there's a reason to. Similarly, while it's possible demonic entities could jaunt through Qliphoth on their way to Earth, coming out of Qliphothic rifts, why would they do such a thing? We know from Aftershocks that such a trip would warp anyone who went through there to some degree, so unless there's a compelling metaphysical reason they couldn't simply gate in from wherever they're from, why would they do this?
Perhaps daemons and other such entities are immune to the potential warping due to there nature.
Besides, this is an MMORPG. While many of us do enjoy more depth to our entertainment experience, mostly we're here to beat things up and take their stuff.
I see where you're coming from, and personally I would have written the stories a little bit differently. However, it IS an important trope of super-magic that appearances can be, and usually are, deceiving.
Hi, Desson 888! Just to let you know, you're likely to get more and more helpful responses to your question if you post it to the "Champions Online Discussion" forum. This forum is for questions related to the Champions Pen-and-Paper role playing game, not the Champions Online MMORPG.
Ok, thanks. I've posted it there now. But do you have any idea how to?
Well said friend, that's exactly how The Kings of Edom should be described!