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How much DC is enough?

Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume I'm talking about 400 pt superheroic characters.

Although I've been playing Champions for a couple of years now and have owned Champions books since '89 (3ed FTW), I've never been truly comfortable with my ability to balance characters. Do I have enough defenses? Are my attacks strong enough? Did I build a tank so tough that nothing can take him down? Mind you that last bit may not be good if the rest of the team are all glass cannons. My brother is a vicious MIN/MAXer and has hurt my games by being so good that everyone else looks weak by comparison. He doesn't mean to hurt my games, it just comes naturally to him and it's something I need to identify before the game starts and feelings get hurt. So I was thinking.... HEY! No comments about how that's unusual for me. So I was thinking how to I establish a normal range and detect abilities outside the statistical norm. This is what I've come up with, based on some questions a GM far better than me asked me about my character and I submit it for your comment and criticism.

The first step, as always with any RPG, is to RTFM, to Read The (Fantastic) Manual. In this case, the rule book at 6E1 35 gives us this set of normal ranges.

Standard Superheroic Ranges (6E1 35)
Characteristics 10-40
SPD 3-10
CV 7-13
DC 6-14
AP 40-80
Skills 25-80
Skill Roll 11-15-
Def/rDef 20-25/12-18

This is a start, but isn't as helpful as I'd like. For example, a SPD of 3-10 is a huge range. If two characters both 10d6 pulson blast then the SPD 10 guy is doing, on average, 350 damage per turn while the SPD 3 guy only does 105. But, you may say, what about the END cost. Well, yea, a 10d6 blast takes 5 end per shot so the SPD 10 guy uses 50 per turn while the SPD 3 guy a mere 15, but that isn't as much of a limitation as much as a speed bump to be worked around. It's been my experience that fights rarely last more than 3 turns, 5 at maximum, so as long as you have enough END to run your powers for five turns, you're set. And there are many many tools you can use to make sure your character isn't sucking END before the post recovery phase. It's just not that big a limitation.

So, what do I suggest? Well, we need two barriers here. The first is given with the above ranges, a max burst or instant damage of 14DC or 80AP whichever comes first. (The DC table is at 6E2 97) The other barrier I think we need is a DPS barrier in terms of DC per SPD or AP per SPD. Now at this point, it's all guess work from me, but the slowest character with the strongest attack would have 42 DCpSPD (14*3) and 240 ACpSPD while the fastest character with the weakest attack would have 60 DCpSPD and 400 ACpSPD. The fastest character with the strongest attack would have a DCpSPD of 140 and an ACpSPD of 800.

So, based on this points, where should we place the upper bound? I would put it at 120 DCpSPD and 600 ACpSPD but that's just me, I have no logic to justify those numbers and that disturbs me.

Actually the bigger question is should we place an upper bound? Is this extra barrier really needed or am I imposing an unnecessary restriction? Consider this: Al is a super hero with SPD 3 and a 10d6 pulson blast while Ben is a SPD 6 hero with a 5d6 pulson blast. In theory they both do on average 105 damage per turn, right? Let's say they go up against Jim who has an ED of 20. Al would attack do, on average 45 points of damage per turn (3*(35-20)) while Ben... Ok, the math here get's a bit complicated but he would but it would be less than 15. Full confession: Yes, I know enough of statistics to know that 45 isn't accurate either but it's still a good estimate. So, there's our problem. Two characters with the same damage per turn yet the slower hero is three times more effective. Yes, I'm this much of a geek that questions like this keep me up at night.

So, any thoughts? Am I barking up the wrong tree entirely or is there some value to my madness?
Post edited by Archived Post on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You know I'll try to give ya the best answer I can.
    I have not gotten the new 6E rules, I'm getting them soon, and once I spruce up my rules knowledge, I'd be happy to champions rulebuild geek out with everyone...I love the math end of champions to no end! :D

    I also know all the min/max tricks, but choose not to use them, and look for elegant designs to building characters.

    I would say like this...based on my old knowledge of the big blue hardbound book...modify as such...

    10D EB vs 25 PD/ED would be a net of 10 points of stun per attack...
    A basic character might have 50 stun if being tough ain't their thing...70+ if they are tough...over 90 if they are REALLY tough...

    Based on the above rough numbers (Assuming 1 End Per 10 Active Power Points)...
    If the 10D6 vs 25 is the baseline yielding 35 - 25 = 10 points of stun at a cost of 5 END
    Then 15D6 vs 25 would yield about 53 - 25 = 28 points of stun...lets round it up to 30 at 7 END.
    Then 18D6 vs 25 would yield about 63 - 25 = 38 stun...lets round to 40 9 END.
    Then 21D6 vs 25 would yield about 74 (nice...we hit a probability sweet spot) - 25 = 49 stun at 10 END.
    Then 25D6 vs 25 would yield about 88 (nice...we hit another PSP) - 25 = 63 stun at 12 END.

    If they are faster than a human, but not fast like the flash, they got a 5 speed. If they are faster than a typical hero, give em a 6. If they are Ms. Marvel fast, give them a 7. If they are Spiderman give em an 8. If they are faster than Spiderman but slower than the Flash, give them a 9. Give the Flash a 10 speed. Phoenix and Superman have 11 speeds. No one has a 12 speed, except Tyrannon, or that ultra badguy. Always reserve the 12 for the GM ;-)

    The above comes with the following caveats:
    * I haven't read the new ruleset yet.
    * It's based totally from memory of the old big rulebook.
    * **** on Fuzion rules, they don't exist.
    * But from a balance perspective, you can adjust numbers like making PD/ED 15 which would make combats fast...and 15 PD with 15 rPD as well makes players able to withstand the killing force of a .44 Magnum Pistol...which is about 2D6+1 RKA +1 Stun Multiplier...but it might sure knock them unconsious, but take no body. That way they can be 'tough' without being able to gank a bunch of stuff they ain't supposed to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My group uses a couple of balance formulas for new game that keep everyone in the same ballpark for powerlevel. Of course the expectation is that power levels will rise over the course of the campaign.

    OCV + DC cannot exceed 21 (9 ocv + 12d6 eb, is fine for example)
    -Watch out for characters with an entangle that doesnt protect the target and a low OCV/High DC attack. Delaying until just before their next action in order to entangle a foe, dropping his dcv to 0, then hitting him with a 5 OCV/16DC attack might be too much (or you might consider that sort of tactical play to be perfect for your game).


    (DCV x 3) + Average Defense cannot exceed 53 (8 DCV + 29 average defenses for example)

    THe basic speed for a player character is 5. A character can take a four speed which allows him to add 1 to his offense cap and 3 to his defense cap (making them 22 and 56 respectively). A character can take a six speed by reducing his caps by the same amount. A seven speed is allowed only rarely but takes an additional -1/-3 to his offense/defense caps.

    Nothing can completely avoid exploitation in Hero System but if you atart off with a simple couple of caps of this sort you are ahead of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ashen_X wrote:
    My group uses a couple of balance formulas for new game that keep everyone in the same ballpark for powerlevel. Of course the expectation is that power levels will rise over the course of the campaign.

    OCV + DC cannot exceed 21 (9 ocv + 12d6 eb, is fine for example)
    -Watch out for characters with an entangle that doesnt protect the target and a low OCV/High DC attack. Delaying until just before their next action in order to entangle a foe, dropping his dcv to 0, then hitting him with a 5 OCV/16DC attack might be too much (or you might consider that sort of tactical play to be perfect for your game).


    (DCV x 3) + Average Defense cannot exceed 53 (8 DCV + 29 average defenses for example)

    THe basic speed for a player character is 5. A character can take a four speed which allows him to add 1 to his offense cap and 3 to his defense cap (making them 22 and 56 respectively). A character can take a six speed by reducing his caps by the same amount. A seven speed is allowed only rarely but takes an additional -1/-3 to his offense/defense caps.

    Nothing can completely avoid exploitation in Hero System but if you atart off with a simple couple of caps of this sort you are ahead of the game.

    Good stuff...
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