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HW Tank?

holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
edited September 2023 in Builds and Roles
Hello guys,
I'm considering a HW tank because I like the idea of smashing with a huge weapon but I'm not very good with all the game's maths and all and I don't have access to PTS to test it. I've read the DPS guide here to see how the HW powerset works. No Quarter-Eruption-Annihilate. But I'm ending with a rather strange build with no crit so I'm really not sure if it can do well?
Anyway, here it is. Feel free to suggest me some better powers. Thank you.

HW Tank
Super Stats
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Devastator (Str: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10, End: 8)
Level 6:
Level 9:
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Level 21:

Powers
Level 1: Throw Fire (Fuel My Fire)
Level 1: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Surge of Strength)
Level 6: Pulverizer
Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Enrage
Level 14: Call To Battle (Rank 2, Intimidating Force)
Level 17: Eruption (Magma Burst, Challenge!)
Level 20: Annihilate (Rank 2, Scorching Blade, To The Heavens)
Level 23: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Break Through)
Level 29: Incendiary Grenade (Chemical Burn)
Level 32: Warmth (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Field Surge
Level 38: Immolation
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Swinging
Level 35: Teleportation

Specializations
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (2/3)
Constitution: Tough (2/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Armored (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Unrelenting (2/2)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on

Comments

  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Well, I'd prob pass on ranking up the energy builder, since you shouldn't be using it that much (and its FMF adv isn't that useful here anyways, since Eruption's adv and the Grenade apply CFlames as is). In that light, you may not need Eruption for CFlames either, if you're already going to be using Incendiary Grenade for No Quarter. I'm a bit unsure about the use of Defensive Combo's Defiance refresh adv, but I guess it can be okay if you're not the MT sometimes but still want a way to upkeep Defiance (I'd prob also consider its knock adv, and esp if it's your main cleave/AoE here). I'm also iffy on the 1-pt KD adv on Annihilate, when it could just be Challenge, and you can build knock immunity on trash w/ other attacks first. Getting a Break Through adv seems to be more suited for pvp here, but perhaps I'm missing some wider context for that pick (also, the adv on Void Shift is good for a quick AoE Fear, but most lunges don't have good dmg/threat on their own).

    I'm also lukewarm on Warmth(hah), since time spent channeling a kinda-weak heal is time spent not doing other things as a non-healer (Endorphin Rush is a pretty good instant heal for tanks- esp those lacking crit/severity for Conviction, since it can scale w/ Con). Field Surge is a rather weak AD w/o using PFF as your slotted passive; you could make that R1-2 Resurgence instead (or R3 MD if you want an effective mitigation cd as a tank, since it boosts you past 100% dodge then). I'm also not a huge fan of Call to Battle, but if you like the ally-buffing part of it then you can keep it (and maybe get the 1pt adv that helps lower its cd). If keeping Call to Battle, then it may also be worthwhile to move a Challenge adv to it (you may not need its knock adv if enough other powers knock), since it can apply 2ndary Challenge to bosses w/o needing to target/hit another mob nearby (and that stacks w/ Primary Challenge from another source).

    Crit/severity is a generally good way to boost dps and threat gen, but you can just slot Confront mods to help w/ threat.

    Also, I imagine it's just an oversight, but you want to fill out your build's Talents here (to match your SSs, generally).
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    Well, I don't put any talents because I'm not sure about them. And it seems I really got it all wrong on this build.

    -FMF, ok that's my first bad idea.
    -Grenade w/No Quarter, the idea is to get the debuff but after a 2nd read I see it applies only a single target debuff so I should go with Arc of Ruin instead.
    -DC w/Surge of Strength, I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep up my Defiance stack, it's a just safety.
    -Annihilate w/TtH, I just don't want to run all over the place after the mobs I would have knocked far away.
    -Break Through, it's useless vs bosses?
    -Warmth, from my old experience heal = pure aggro (hence many tanks have DE) and I've not read they've changed the aggro mechanics here?
    -Call to Battle, it helps me with the knock resist, the dmg shield and the adv. adds a knock to build my Enrage. Actually it's so useful in many ways than I don't see how not to use it.
    -Resurgence, I'm really not a fan of it. It never helped me of anything. I suppose I don't know how to use it?
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    Yea, keeping the adv on Defense Combo sounds fine, and you can keep the adv on Annihilate if you want (and can roll primary Challenge another way). My main hangup w/ Call to Battle is its cd, but that can potentially be shortened for better uptime, and then it can be a fine pick.

    Break Through can help if any mob uses an active block. Although that can be useful for pvp, I don't know of that many pve encounters w/ mobs that do that, but I'll admit that I'm not up-to-speed in that area. Would be nice to not need it, since that frees up 3 adv points.

    The aggro you could get from Warmth isn't really worth it alone, and you can just generate more aggro from attacking w/ decently strong attacks instead (the healgro isn't really why a tank would use DE- more like it has some built-in self-healing while still being a decent attack), and you'd prob get some healgro from an instant heal too anyways.

    Resurgence is actually prob the easiest AD to use, since it's just a big instant heal w/ a nice regen effect afterwards, so you're more likely to use it reactively to counter big inc dmg than most of the other ADs. That said, it's still technically not a mitigation cd, so if you feel that you still need a mitigation cd then you could get something else (R3 MD prob being the best one for tanks; Indestructible isn't as strong since you already have very high defense, and the others are kinda meh imo).

    Oh, and for Talents, you can just get the three +8 and +5/+5 ones that match your SSs (5 Str + 5 Con, etc), and/or use them to get a small amount of another stat (like End or Dex) on the side. As long as the talents still boost your 3 SS's some, then you're generally gtg there.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Listening to your suggestions, I've made these changes.
    I moved my reckless buff against those op knocks on Eruption and I'm picking Thunderclap r2 as I think I'm going to need those 2 seconds stun to setup my AoR+Eruption. I've chosen Endorphin Rush too for some more persistant healing during a fight.

    MD R3 still works with all the nerfs on dodge?

    Super Stats
    Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
    Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
    Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Devastator (Str: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10, End: 8)
    Level 6: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 9: Impressive Physique (Str: 5, Pre: 5)
    Level 12: Shrug It Off (Con: 5, Pre: 5)
    Level 15: Paramilitary Training (Str: 3, Con: 3, Rec: 3, End: 3)
    Level 18: Enduring (Con: 8)
    Level 21: Mighty (Str: 8)

    Powers
    Level 1: Throw Fire
    Level 1: Warmth (Rank 2)
    Level 6: Immolation
    Level 8: Eruption (Magma Burst, Reckless Endangerment, Challenge!)
    Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 14: Enrage
    Level 17: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Nailed to the Ground)
    Level 20: Arc of Ruin (No Quarter, Wildfire)
    Level 23: Pulverizer
    Level 26: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Dizzying Impact, Challenge!)
    Level 29: Annihilate (Rank 2, Scorching Blade, To The Heavens)
    Level 32: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 35: Resurgence
    Level 38: Unleashed Rage (Rank 2)
    Adv. Points: 36/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Swinging
    Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

    Specializations
    Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
    Constitution: Fuel My Fire (2/3)
    Constitution: Tough (2/3)
    Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
    Constitution: Armored (2/2)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Unrelenting (2/2)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
    Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Yea, R1 MD used to be enough to get you past 100% dodge (which didn't give much incentive to rank up MD), but now that requires R3 for most builds (R1 now only gives +50% to dodge).

    Anyhow, that version of the build is a bit more cohesive, assuming you don't mind some of the power changes. The main thing it's missing now, though, is a ranked block enhancer (which can be very important for tanks). I'd prob drop Warmth (or Immolation) for the block power (like you had R3 Energy Shield earlier). Also, it may be better to put Challenge on Arc of Ruin than on TClap. Arc can be a regular AoE attack and debuff power, while TClap is prob more situational. That said, either power can work for a 2ndary Challenge apply (if used regularly), and the adv on TClap will give it a slightly larger radius than Arc, so that choice is more up to you.

    Also, the 1-pt threat adv on Unleashed Rage does stack w/ all forms of Challenge, so you may want to consider getting that to help secure threat (if keeping UR).

    Lastly, I guess it's worth noting that you could also change to Str PSS with 3/3 Juggernaut in a STR/Con/Rec SS setup (maybe w/ Protector Mastery then). The current SS setup w/ Con PSS can also be good for a tank, though, so you don't necessarily have to change that aspect if you don't want to.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    Oh no. I forget the block, duh.
    I really don't want to knock ennemies on the Moon and run all over the place to catch them back with a silly knockback so my setup includes Eruption+Thunderclap. I think I found a way to keep UR with this build?

    HW Tank
    Super Stats
    Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
    Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
    Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Rockstar (Str: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 8, End: 10)
    Level 6: Bodybuilder (Str: 5, End: 5)
    Level 9: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 12: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)
    Level 15: Paramilitary Training (Str: 3, Con: 3, Rec: 3, End: 3)
    Level 18: Mighty (Str: 8)
    Level 21: Enduring (Con: 8)

    Powers
    Level 1: Throw Fire
    Level 1: Warmth (Rank 2)
    Level 6: Thermal Reverberation
    Level 8: Eruption (Magma Burst, Reckless Endangerment)
    Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 14: Enrage
    Level 17: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Nailed to the Ground)
    Level 20: Arc of Ruin (No Quarter)
    Level 23: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 26: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Dizzying Impact, Challenge!)
    Level 29: Annihilate (Rank 2, Scorching Blade, To The Heavens)
    Level 32: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 35: Resurgence
    Level 38: Unleashed Rage (Commanding Presence)
    Adv. Points: 36/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Swinging
    Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

    Specializations
    Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
    Constitution: Fuel My Fire (2/3)
    Constitution: Tough (2/3)
    Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
    Constitution: Armored (2/2)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Unrelenting (2/2)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
    Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,543 Arc User
    Here are a couple of my HW tanks who have no problems with end game stuff:

    Techs Mechs 3 - Freeform (Tank)
    v3.45:38

    Super Stats
    Level 6: Strength (Primary)
    Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
    Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Protector (Str: 10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 8)
    Level 6: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 9: Relentless (Str: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 12: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 15: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 18: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)
    Level 21: Martial Focus (Str: 5, Dex: 5)

    Powers
    Level 1: Bludgeon
    Level 1: Guard (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 6: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 8: Enrage
    Level 11: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2)
    Level 14: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 17: Skullcrusher (Rank 2, Falling Hammer)
    Level 20: Annihilate (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
    Level 23: Unleashed Rage (Commanding Presence)
    Level 26: Brimstone (Rank 2, Aftershock, Challenge!)
    Level 29: Vicious Descent (Relentless, Bold Entrance)
    Level 32: Pulverizer
    Level 35: Backhand Chop
    Level 38: Bad Sector (Analyze Weakness)
    Adv. Points: 36/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Lightning Flash
    Level 35: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)

    Specializations
    Strength: Swole (3/3)
    Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
    Strength: Juggernaut (2/3)
    Strength: Overpower (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: Upper Hand (3/3)
    Warden: The Best Defense (2/3)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Beacon of Hope (2/3)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)

    Devices


    Enkidu 1 - Freeform (Tank)
    v3.45:38

    Super Stats
    Level 6: Strength (Primary)
    Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
    Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Master (Str: 8, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10)
    Level 6: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 9: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 12: Relentless (Str: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 15: Martial Focus (Str: 5, Dex: 5)
    Level 18: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 21: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)

    Powers
    Level 1: Clobber
    Level 1: Enrage (Giant Growth)
    Level 6: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 8: Pulverizer
    Level 11: Guard (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 14: Vicious Descent (Bold Entrance)
    Level 17: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 20: Annihilate (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
    Level 23: Shockwave (Rank 2, Power Shift, Challenge!)
    Level 26: Unleashed Rage (Commanding Presence)
    Level 29: Hurl (Hard Fall, Didn't See That Coming)
    Level 32: Backhand Chop
    Level 35: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2)
    Level 38: Howl (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
    Adv. Points: 36/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 35: Earth Flight

    Specializations
    Strength: Swole (3/3)
    Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
    Strength: Brutality (2/2)
    Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Beacon of Hope (2/3)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Sentry: Precise (3/3)
    Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
    Sentry: Fortify (1/2)
    Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)

    Devices​​
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Yea, Jaaz showed two other good examples of how to approach a (mostly) HW tank.
    holloweaver wrote: »
    Oh no. I forget the block, duh.
    I really don't want to knock ennemies on the Moon and run all over the place to catch them back with a silly knockback so my setup includes Eruption+Thunderclap. I think I found a way to keep UR with this build? (...)

    Well, it's a bit better w/ the block. Arc of Ruin won't be refreshing CFlames on its own w/o the adv (nor will it knock down targets), but I suppose you want to keep using Eruption for Reckless anyways, so the Wildfire adv on Arc may not be needed then. You could still get another rank/adv in Arc too, if you don't mind dropping NttG on the lunge.

    Still unsure about Warmth's usefulness here, but maybe you'll find something in it in practice.

    .. And I just realized that earlier I thought you had the adv on TClap that boosts its range, but you got the Disorient adv instead. I'm not sure that one is really worth it, and the range increase adv can be pretty nice.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    I don't understand everything you're saying, flowcyto
    - I read that Clinging Flames last for 12 seconds while Eruption has a 6 seconds cd so I should be good?
    - Dizzling Impact on Thunderclap allows me to turn Annihilate into a knockup and it's never bad to reduce the damages and move speed of the ennemies with disorient.
    - Warmth... well I need something as lvl 1 power and I don't want Cleave.

    Reading jaazinah builds, I'm considering to swap Void Shift for Viscious Descent and to take back Call to Battle for the combo with the stacks of Bastion.

    HW Tank
    Super Stats
    Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
    Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
    Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Rockstar (Str: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 8, End: 10)
    Level 6: Bodybuilder (Str: 5, End: 5)
    Level 9: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 12: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)
    Level 15: Paramilitary Training (Str: 3, Con: 3, Rec: 3, End: 3)
    Level 18: Mighty (Str: 8)
    Level 21: Enduring (Con: 8)

    Powers
    Level 1: Throw Fire
    Level 1: Fire Breath (Spitfire)
    Level 6: Thermal Reverberation
    Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 11: Enrage
    Level 14: Eruption (Rank 2, Magma Burst, Challenge!)
    Level 17: Arc of Ruin (No Quarter, Wildfire, Challenge!)
    Level 20: Vicious Descent (Bold Entrance)
    Level 23: Call To Battle (Rank 2)
    Level 26: Annihilate (Rank 2, Scorching Blade, To The Heavens)
    Level 29: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 32: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2)
    Level 35: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 38: Unleashed Rage (Commanding Presence)
    Adv. Points: 35/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Swinging
    Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

    Specializations
    Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
    Constitution: Fuel My Fire (2/3)
    Constitution: Tough (2/3)
    Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
    Constitution: Armored (2/2)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Unrelenting (2/2)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
    Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    I don't understand everything you're saying, flowcyto
    - I read that Clinging Flames last for 12 seconds while Eruption has a 6 seconds cd so I should be good?
    - Dizzling Impact on Thunderclap allows me to turn Annihilate into a knockup and it's never bad to reduce the damages and move speed of the ennemies with disorient.
    - Warmth... well I need something as lvl 1 power and I don't want Cleave.

    You don't necessarily have to keep using Eruption w/ Arc, since the latter can be made to refresh CFlames. For dps that's usually a standard since it simplifies the single-target rotation to Arc and Annihilate (after the initial Eruption), and then you can push out slightly more Annihilates over time. But before you were doing something a bit different in using Eruption as a part of the rotation for Reckless as well, which can work too and means that you can keep using Eruption for CFlames instead (while still tapping Arc for No Quarter). There's often multiple ways to tackle even one powerset's rotation (like HW's), and I can't cover every single iteration, so I tend to go w/ more basic stuff and work up from there. I'm not trying to lead you astray, but I can't account for everyone's personal prefs either.

    Arc of Ruin can also Disorient, and I thought that's initially what you were going for, but I also usually don't recommend the KU adv on Annihilate since you can save the odd adv point and just use other attacks to build up knock immunity first (vs. trash mobs you can pretty easily give them knock immunity since you are first AoEing w/ other attacks that can knock anyways; most bosses are knock-immune so it shouldn't matter much there either). But again, you can do it your own way if you like how it works and it gets results.

    You also don't specifically need Throw Fire as your energy builder, since you shouldn't be using it much anyways (and you have more reliable ways of applying CFlames as is), and that means you could take a HW_Might energy builder to not have to worry about power tier restrictions as much (like being forced to take odd powers early on).

    Replacing the Darkness lunge w/ Vicious Descent can be good, either way.
    Post edited by flowcyto on
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • h4forumsh4forums Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    you should consider primary superstatting str instead of con (like jaz did in his builds). it provides more defense and helps out with melee energy management. resilient and unyielding in con are next to useless. fuel my fire is for leveling or niche builds, useless for tanks.
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    I really don't want the knockback on Annihilate. I've already played with melee mights and I've seen them knocking mobs out of lunge range. So no, I'm not going to throw mobs out of my range. And Call to Battle is a much faster way to proc TtH (0.5 sec tap) than AoR (1.67 sec charge). And the other option would be to stack 3 knock immunities before I can use Annihilate, this is too long too.
    I didn't know about this rotation with Eruption and I see how it works now. Eruption then AoR w/Wildfire to forget about Eruption which saves a lot of energy.

    Ok, I'll swap Con PSS for Str PSS.

    HW Tank
    I'm replacing my fire EB with a might one. I've now one empty slot for one more power and I'm going to follow jaazaniah suggestions and add Bad Sector.
    Super Stats
    Level 6: Strength (Primary)
    Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
    Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Devastator (Str: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10, End: 8)
    Level 6: Relentless (Str: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 9: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 12: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 15: Paramilitary Training (Str: 3, Con: 3, Rec: 3, End: 3)
    Level 18: Mighty (Str: 8)
    Level 21: Enduring (Con: 8)

    Powers
    Level 1: Wield Earth
    Level 1: Enrage
    Level 6: Pulverizer
    Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 11: Eruption (Rank 2, Magma Burst)
    Level 14: Arc of Ruin (No Quarter, Wildfire, Challenge!)
    Level 17: Vicious Descent (Bold Entrance)
    Level 20: Call To Battle (Rank 2, Challenge!)
    Level 23: Annihilate (Rank 2, Scorching Blade, To The Heavens)
    Level 26: Endorphin Rush (Rank 2)
    Level 29: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 32: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 35: Bad Sector (Analyze Weakness)
    Level 38: Unleashed Rage (Commanding Presence)
    Adv. Points: 36/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6: Swinging
    Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

    Specializations
    Strength: Swole (3/3)
    Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
    Strength: Aggression (2/2)
    Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
    Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Protector: Unrelenting (2/2)
    Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
    Protector: Resolute (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
    Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
    Post edited by holloweaver on
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    I really don't want the knockback on Annihilate. I've already played with melee mights and I've seen them knocking mobs out of lunge range. So no, I'm not going to throw mobs out of my range. And Call to Battle is a much faster way to proc TtH (0.5 sec tap) than AoR (1.67 sec charge). And the other option would be to stack 3 knock immunities before I can use Annihilate, this is too long too. (...)

    I would generally agree that KB'ing trash can be annoying and disruptive, and that's why I don't typically recommend AoEs that scatter KB. Single-target can be a bit of a different story, though, since the context can be different, which is why I guess this keeps coming up. So, against multiple targets, you want to open w/ an AoE (TClap_CtB) but then immediately go to single-target each mob down w/ Annihilate? Arc is your best AoE filler that I assume you'd be using then instead (the other AoEs have a cd), and Eruption can also be thrown in for trash and that's another knock. So I guess I just don't understand this approach. Even w/o immunity, though, I don't think that doing a less optimal single-target rotation on the one lingering trash mob to avoid a KB on it is that big of a deal, and it is a situation you still have control over, but to each their own.

    If it is just about not wanting to repeat other players knocking lone mobs away, then that's prob on those players since they likely could have avoided doing that. Some players just do it 'for fun' or just don't care (or, w/ good intent, they estimate that the hit + fall dmg would KO the mob, but miscalculated), and that's less about the build (unless you only have obligate KBs for attacks and nothing else) and more about player mentality.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Alright, it's not really going well anymore.

    "but then immediately go to single-target each mob down?" What a caricature! This tells how this talk is geting agressive. All I'm saying is this : for 1 pp I would be able to use Annihilate on anything, freely and without worrying about any stacks of knock immunity. Just anytime, anywhere, against anything. What I'm saying is that I should be able to smash a MV with Annihilate rather than to spam AoR until death or wait until he has 3 stacks of knocks immunity and then keep an eye on them. I've only 2 eyes and I can't keep them on an added detail that add complications. It doesn't make things easier at all. What I'm saying is that I don't see how it can be better to build 2 rotations, one for trash and one for bosses when I would be able to do both for... 1 pp. What I'm saying is No Quarter applies a crash and fire debuff and therefore I should be able to add fire powers rather than going all the demolish/crush way that you're pushing my build into.

    So as the talk is geting agressive, I'm done with this idea. Thank you for your time anyway.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    I think you're either projecting or mischaracterizing me here. (If anything has been aggressive here its how aggro H4 was against Con PSS, when it's still imo a fine option for tanks, but we can agree to disagree there). Anyways, I've already outlined that versus trash a player usually wants to be using AoE, and then as long as you don't have a KB'ing AoE then you don't really have to worry about knocking away most trash. The other point was that having to use Arc and/or Eruption a few times on a lone trash mob is really not that big of a deal (you'd already sometimes be using at least one- if not both- on bosses anyways), and trash mobs tend to be pretty weak as is. KB'ing a single mob like that is the player's choice and would be avoidable here even w/o the KU adv on Annihilate.

    If anything, I was impugning the actions of other players (and not you), for them doing stuff like KB'ing lone mobs away when they know that it won't kill them. And as I've said many times by now: do the approach that you like and works for you. If you like the KU adv on Annihilate and don't mind the odd adv point then go for it. I guess our main point of disagreement is that I just don't think it's necessary, but you can ofc personalize the build as you like.

    I'm also a bit confused by you saying that I'm pushing you towards Crushing/Demolish. Jaaz's builds went down that route; I never advised you to get a Demolish-applying power (though ofc that approach to HW can be good too). You can definitely use some Fire powers (or a Muni power in this case, if we consider Incendiary Grenade from before- which I never said that you had to drop), but not all of them are going to be a good fit w/ HW either. Warmth and something that doesn't knock and/or provide much utility (like Firebreath) prob aren't good picks w/ HW here. However, something that knocks, and/or provides some utility (like Pyre w/ KD adv, Fire's block, Absorb Heat's heal w/ CFlames, Fire's self-rez, or even Fire's lunge) could be made to work in the build, if desired. I didn't know that you wanted to have more Fire powers, cause that wasn't made apparent to me before, but I can only work w/ the info that I've been given.

    Anyways, I feel like I had to respond to provide some clarity from my end. We can just agree to disagree on some things and move on, and if you don't want my input in the future then you can always just say so and I'll oblige.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    "The other point was that..."
    Both points have absolutely nothing to do with my request here. Keep going as I keep leaving. It's enough now.

    How do I delete a thread, please?
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,851 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    "Both points have absolutely nothing to do with my request here"
    I disagree. One deals with how you tackle trash *with the build you requested help on* and the other is how you want to add Fire/other powers *into the build you requested help on*. If it's about not liking other players KB'ing mobs away, then you brought that up (and I agreed that scattering mobs was bad).

    You can't lie about or mischaracterize my posts and expect me to just take it, Hollow, but delete the thread if you like. I won't be dealing with you again due to the bad faith engagement you've shown, either way.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • holloweaverholloweaver Posts: 582 Arc User
    So... One, you don't know how I deal with trash mobs. I never talked about it. And I never played a HW either. So claiming that you know is definitely a projection, your projection not mine. Then claiming that I'm the one doing a projection while it's from you is a stamp of bad faith.

    But of course, you had to put the blame on me. You had to. I see who you are now. Please don't talk to me anymore. Bye.
  • gammabreakergammabreaker Posts: 245 Arc User
    edited September 2023
    Without spammable primary challenge on Annihilate, you're going to struggle to hold aggro on anything but Alert and Rampage bosses (and even then, probably not Unknowable). Secondary challenge delivers less threat per second, but over twice the duration. It also doesn't stack, IIRC, and you have two secondary challenge attacks, on spammable, one not.

    Losing a rank on Annihilate is not ideal either. It's a strong attack, but tanks in this game generally need all the TPS (and DPS is TPS) they can get on the top tier cosmic bosses. The lower tier cosmics generally aren't going to trip a wipe if they turn around.

    Flinging trash can be mitigated by prestacking knocks on them with disruptive openers. With Wildfire on Arc and Intimidating Force on Call to Battle, you should be able to open your rush with Arc tap > Call to Battle > Arc 100% charge which should go off just as the Wildfire knock comes off cooldown, if not with a brief pause or a successive tap. This will build resist stacks and apply area challenge, at which point you should be free to use Annihilate R3+Challenge on MV/Enf that survive. This also serves to stop them from doing much of anything for a good 3-4 seconds. Something like Center of Gravity is also extremely useful in this kind of trash roundup rotation.

    That said, flinging trash isn't much of a concern outside of...probably TT and TA? I'm not sure what other group content has trash of note. It's at most an annoyance elsewhere, and that's a job for the DPS who should be free and clear to attack anything thanks to the threat from Annihilate + primary challenge.

    Alternatively, consider Skullcrusher R2+Challenge+Put Them Down+Unhinged. It's not as strong as annihilate, and it has ramping time due to the advantages, but it knocks down instead of up/back and applies primary challenge to its first target in addition to hitting (very) close trash to apply secondary challenge.


    Edit: When I say secondary challenge doesn't stack, I mean with itself. It does stack with primary challenge.
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