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Dodge as survival for dps - impossible ?.


I made a FF char that i wanted to be a type of assassin using stealth and dodge for survival,
completely maxing dex with CON and END as secondary SS, currently sitting at almost 600Dex
without AoPM and he is still barely over 36% dodge and avoidance, which means most blows still hits,
and this is on a build that has a minimal amount of health for a L40 char, just under 6k health.

Why can't it be possible to build a dps character who's survivability depends on dodge&avoid
without becoming a tank ?. No matter how much you press Dex, it's impossible to reach the
kind of numbers that would make it viable to depend on for survival .

The only think a dps can depend on for survival now is stacking health as high as possible
and using Resurgence R3 , nothing else even comes close to defense for a dps toon.

Comments

  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    In the past, there were gear and power options that let DPS role characters have very high DODGE and AVOIDANCE ratings.

    The intent became to never allow a DPS character get anywhere near those values again. And, I believe, that if someone were able to figure out HOW to do it, the Devs would nerf it as soon as they became aware of it.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,425 Arc User
    What Warcanch said. They seem pretty dead set against anyone having a character that is virtually unkillable and a dps god at the same time.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User
    I still think this was a very bad solution when you look at how well high-hp dps does.

    For example. Take a high-hp dps like my TK-dps that does very well on cosmics, she has close to 10k hp
    and a R3 Resurg and R3 block which means Lava on Ape poses little to no threat at all, and baby dino's
    green AoE removes about half her health - not much of a threat there either.

    Then take a low-hp dodge/avoid dps with barely over 5k health, pushing whatever dodge there is,
    as much as possible and only getting 36%. Lava on the Ape suddenly becomes a serious threat even with
    R3 block because the first hit for 2k knockback, then lava ticks 1-2 times depending on how fast you can
    walk out of the pool, for 1500 health each time, that's pretty much a death incomming.

    Baby dino's green AoE hits for 5-6k non-block, and pretty much everyone's of the opinion that
    you shouldn't need to block baby's green aoe because it doens't hit that hard - unless it crits.
    But on a dodge-dps with low health, those 5-6k damage is either instant death or leaves you
    on the brink of it..


    This is the reason why i think that dps should still be able to reach a high dodge to make up for the missing health,
    but maybe not so much avoidance to make them godlike dps.


  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,425 Arc User
    Speaking only for myself, and in my experience, I find that block-timing with a R3 block of any sort is far and away the best way to survive most any cosmic (at least if you are FF and so can take some personal heals to cover emergencies). I routinely have 6K HP characters at all cosmics who can go through an entire fight without dying once. Of course there are always exceptions, but it would be a really boring game if I could never lose, even if only temporarily.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    And, lava patch damage cannot be dodged, any ways.

    Some players don't like you taking a personal Bionic Shield as a dps, because a healers' Bionic Shield applied to your dps will be of higher healing. Whereas, I feel that in most cases, I'm not receiving a healers' Bionic Shield. And, at Qwyjibo, I like to pop a Bionic Shield just before or immediately after the WHOMP!. It helps to mitigate multiple patch lavas as it procs for each (up to 5 times). This helps my squishy characters a great deal.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • zwipezantherzwipezanther Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Assuming you have fully invested your defense gear into dodge/avoidance, Dodge based DPS characters are perfectly viable for endgame content. But require an anticipatory approach to survival instead of a reactive one.

    Lava patches, for example. Instead of waiting for it to fully spawn before walking, anticipate when it is about to spawn, then time it so when it does, you're already at the edge of the patch (Don't drop it directly behind Ape though. Practice from a bit farther distance until you get it down. It will take some practice).

    Whether you choose the dodge/avoidance route or HP/Defense route, you still need to master the Block mechanic. There is no "dodging" it (pun intended).

    An R3 Block (or R2 Parry w/ Elusive Monk adv. if you're dodge-based) is all you really need. Just master your block timing, and anticipate instead of react. You'll live.
    Post edited by zwipezanther on
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User

    I still think that as dps with focus on dex and dodge gear, a dependable amount of dodge %
    should be able to be reached to make up for the 50% less health. I don't see a reason why not,
    and i dare anyone to give me a valid reason to why NOT.
  • zwipezantherzwipezanther Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    > @diggot said:
    > I still think that as dps with focus on dex and dodge gear, a dependable amount of dodge %
    > should be able to be reached to make up for the 50% less health. I don't see a reason why not,
    > and i dare anyone to give me a valid reason to why NOT.

    If you're gonna be cocky about it and brush off the honest advice given by everyone, I was melee DPSing with 5k at one point. No issues (aside from simply failing to anticipate and execute on my part). And I'm not the only one who's able to do so.

    Plenty of low HP dodge-based DPS toons doing fine at cosmics. You need to work on your technique, plain and simple.

    If you can't handle that fact, you're not cut for the playstyle. No eggs-cuses (pun intended).
    Post edited by zwipezanther on
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    diggot wrote: »
    The only think a dps can depend on for survival now is stacking health as high as possible
    and using Resurgence R3 , nothing else even comes close to defense for a dps toon.

    There's your problem right there. Flawed premise.

    As has been answered by zwipe and others, we DO bring 5k hp glass cannons to all of the Cosmic encounters and survive with few issues. These issues are usually overcome by adjusting the build, your technique, or just accept the fact that every character can DIE in these encounters.

    If you are always dying, ask for advice or figure out what you are doing wrong. Because you can plainly see the rest of the Team Up are surviving (well, most of them, usually).​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User

    I'm not always dying, i'm rarely dying on cosmics with 37% dodge/avoidance.
    But there still needs to be a gain from losing out of 50% health in terms of survival.
    Normally when i build a ff-dps, i got for high health and resurg-3, keeps me plenty safe
    from anything but a few alert *tough* minions that hits really hard .

    But a dodge-dps dies from 2 hits from these minions because the dodge reached
    isn't high enough to depend on to keep you alive, not unless you pop MD,
    which you can't at every engagement.

    Madstones minions, Bloodhounds, Madam destroyer , Rakshasa, all those minions hits hard
    and there's no survival for a lowhealth dodge-dps unless MD is active or simply waiting until
    everyone else has engaged first.

    Would it be so bad if dodge-dps could reach a dependable % of dodge and avoidance
    to keep them alive against minions ?, i'm not talking about being able to tank bosses
    with high damage... But having 37% chance to dodge with 575Dex, dodge equipment and dodge mods is low.
  • zwipezantherzwipezanther Posts: 109 Arc User
    37% dodge? I'm hoping those are Idle numbers and not with your buffs up.

    The number with all your buffs up (minus MD of course) is what matters.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    Again, I feel that your premise is flawed.

    Glass cannons ARE glass cannons. Plenty of things are available to help in some rough situations, but if you are drawing too much attention AND too much damage, you should consider a build change. No shame in taking a Defensive passive and running in Hybrid mode. Even in the Cosmics, you only really have the DPS check at Dino to make sure you can deliver some good DPS or burst.

    Eidolon is a different matter. Everyone needs to bring their "A" game. YOU need to know what you can do, when you have to do, etc etc.

    That all said, even players using Invulnerable, Defiance, Lightning Reflexes (I'll purposely ignore the other Defensive passives here), don't just attack everything thinking they don't have to worry about getting killed. Everyone has to manage the encounter. Dps, block, AoE, block Line of Sight, etc. Knowing your own weaknesses is the best way to work around them.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • zwipezantherzwipezanther Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I Agree with what Warcanch said. No matter what form of mitigation you take, you have to manage mobs to what you can handle. A form of AoE CC like Dragon Kick should be in a melee squishy's arsenal if attacking multiple mobs is their intent.

    The whole appeal/ugliness of Dodge/Avoidance is the risk factor involved: Make the dodge and you barely get scratched. Fail to dodge and you're dead.

    Watering down the playstyle with more HP will just make it a less efficient way of going full on HP/Defense. Dodge/Avoidance is an active method of mitigation, whereas HP/Defense is a passive one.

    A ninja that tries to muscle his way into a group enemies like a steamroller is like a giant ogre hiding behind a rosebush, hoping the humans he's trying to sneak up on won't notice him. Gotta know what you can and can't get away with and form your gameplan accordingly.
    Post edited by zwipezanther on
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