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Feedback Thread: Archery

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  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited May 22
    Rework isn't good right now. Damage is too low, powers are too slow, (some) powers cost too much energy. The more in set powers you pick, the worse your character will be. A notable problem about Quarry is that a lot of the powers in Archery have non-physical damage types, but Quarry is primarily physical damage.

    Suggestion
    Quarry improves damage of Archery powers or Technology (But then again this would be similar to Composure) or whatever.


    Bug
    Archery powers: Strafe, Focused Shot, probably more.
    Don't trigger certain specs like Surprise Attack.


    The EU is weird to scale on Int, but the condition requires a Critical Hit. Logical in other sets because they have forms that scale on Dex, but Concentration is Ego/Int.

    Suggestion
    EU change to something else.


    Armor Piercing debuff being reused is pretty lame. Misses out on the chance to introduce a new debuff that will synergize with other sets to make up for so much physical debuffing in the game.

    Suggestion
    New Archery resistance debuff: -15% Piercing, -6% Elemental, -6% Energy Resistance.
  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    Bug
    Rapid Shots
    unknown.png
    • Rapid Shots is not using the correct Onslaught Burst Enhancement and as a result of that is not getting any damage bonus currently.

    Images of parses done before the last update and in the current update below
    unknown.png
    This is before the update ^(the above is rank 3 Rapid Shots)

    unknown.png
    This is after the update ^
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited May 22
    [Because this gone so well already with the TK and TP dots you detonate with the new TP powers back then. And with Congress of Sleeves still one of the worst passives with it.
    I never mentioned rupture. That idea is more in-line with burning chi fist's shattering strikes advantage or the clinging flames advantage on annihilate, where a decent dps power gets a slight improvement from having a specific condition on the target. In this case the bonus would be about the number of conditions, not a specific one....

    But, I was just spitballing. I'm not trying to sell this mechanic, my point is that there is no discernable theme or mechanic present in the rework period.

    Moving on...
    Looking at Quarry. It seems like targeting computer or night warrior are going to be better fits for the set than quarry itself, since a number of the archery powers are doing non-physical damage. It seems to me that the passive of a set should provide the maximum buff it provides to all the powers in that set.
    Quarry currently buffs physical damage by a large amount, and non physical damage by a smaller amount.
    Make Quarry buff ranged damage by a large amount, and melee damage by a smaller amount


    I don't think this change would be a buff to force or power armor, since they already have great passive choices, force is already physical damage anyway, and power armor can choose to go with crushing attacks. Most PA users take targetting comp, and most force users use night warrior.

    I also had a power idea... I'm sure it would be difficult to implement, but it just sounds fun to me. Working Name: Perfect Arrow.
    This is an oddball attack power. Pressing the power button would cause you character to reach back and grab an arrow. You then pull out the arrow and look at it for a moment, before putting it back and drawing out a new arrow. releasing the power button would cause your character to quickly fire off whatever arrow is currently in hand at the time. If fully maintained, you will fire off the last arrow you drew. The idea here is that you could introduce all sorts of wild arrow effects. Due to the random nature of the power, you couldn't rely on getting a specific effect.. which might allow for some arrow effects that would be OP if you had access to them on-tap. This is also a good way to include very niche arrows, since they wouldn't have to eat up an entire power selection to include them. I have a ton of arrow ideas, but I'm sure most players can imagine some fun arrow ideas to throw in... so I'll just leave it at that.
  • andondarkmoreandondarkmore Posts: 595 Arc User
    Add bleeds to some of the powers. I find I do bleed when I get poked by sharp pointy things. And maybe a rupture attack. ( Bleeds Knick some blood vessels and rupture attack Shreds blood vessels.) OR have Bleeds feed Fair Game or give a bonus to effects or damage of other attacks.

    Just my opinion
  • baltomeerbaltomeer Posts: 1 Arc User
    Rework isn't good right now. Damage is too low, powers are too slow, (some) powers cost too much energy. The more in set powers you pick, the worse your character will be. A notable problem about Quarry is that a lot of the powers in Archery have non-physical damage types, but Quarry is primarily physical damage.

    Suggestion
    Quarry improves damage of Archery powers or Technology (But then again this would be similar to Composure) or whatever.


    Bug
    Archery powers: Strafe, Focused Shot, probably more.
    Don't trigger certain specs like Surprise Attack.


    The EU is weird to scale on Int, but the condition requires a Critical Hit. Logical in other sets because they have forms that scale on Dex, but Concentration is Ego/Int.

    Suggestion
    EU change to something else.


    Armor Piercing debuff being reused is pretty lame. Misses out on the chance to introduce a new debuff that will synergize with other sets to make up for so much physical debuffing in the game.

    Suggestion
    New Archery resistance debuff: -15% Piercing, -6% Elemental, -6% Energy Resistance.

    Changing quarry like that would shatter MANY builds and make it a near useless power. Keep it as is and don't mess with it. Period.
  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Describe to players what devs intended to create with the Archery power set so that players can give feedback in line with that vision. What is Archery supposed to feel like? Look like? What goal is to be achieved with Archery?
  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    There's a balance problem with Caltrops + Adv in that it does little to help the Archery set and instead buffs Single Blade and Bestial sets by creating something that passively bleeds enemies. Most importantly, it ends up making Reaper's Embrace deal more damage which is like wow. That power does not need to be any stronger than it already is.
  • dataweaver42dataweaver42 Posts: 137 Arc User
    Let me second the suggestions to make Quarry a Ranged-then-Melee damage buff rather than a Physical-then-nonphysical damage buff. It's nice for the Dodge and Avoidance buffs on an otherwise offensive passive; but maybe these should be increased to be more comparable to Night Warrior.

    And speaking of Night Warrior: if you're going to yoink Fair Game from Quarry, consider replacing it with Concealment (2-point Advantage), which would add a Sneak power to the tray, turning Quarry into a ranged counterpart to Night Warrior. _Just_ Sneak, mind you; Focused Shot can already very nearly do what Shadow Strike does, and from range. Possibly give Straight Shot, Torrent of Arrows, and Focused Shot an additional damage buff if fully charged while in Stealth, letting you play the Archer as a ranged assassin.

    And let me also second the idea of adding Bleed to the non-trick arrow attacks in the set. If it's too much to add in automatically, consider either a set of Advantages for the various attacks, or as a next-shot power ("Deadly Aim"?) like the ones in Gadgeteer that lets you add a Bleed to whichever Archery attack comes next.
  • dataweaver42dataweaver42 Posts: 137 Arc User
    Also: if you give Quarry an Int-based bonus to crits, this would reduce the problem with Hunter's Instinct being most effective with Dex builds. Primary Int and Secondary Dex might be a viable build. The trick would be to not become better than Targeting Computer, to the point where PA builds start taking Quarry instead.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    I can definitely get with the idea of changing Quarry like that, provided that it doesn't become an Energy Form.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,518 Arc User
    edited May 22
    Storm of Arrows
    With the cooldown removed, this is now a proper aoe maintain. Thank you!

    Explosive Arrow
    This power almost feels like it doesn't belong in the set because of the fact Quarry's main bonus doesn't apply to Fire damage, and you pretty much need to use another passive to make use of it. Might be worth changing the Fire damage to Crushing damage, since explosions are concussive and Crushing benefits from Quarry's bonus. For those who prefer Fire for alternate passives, an advantage could change the crushing part back to fire, hopefully without too much effort.

    Snap Shot
    I want to like this power because I like combos in general, but I'm still not seeing a good reason to actually use it for anything beyond being a 1-click refresh for armor piercing or for the weird/odd ranged dodge tank, which is unfortunate. Moving to T0 devalues it as an execute power due to reduced damage. I stand by my previous suggestions for this power, because it's really not impressive at the moment. There's several better ways to refresh (and apply) Armor Piercing at the moment, but they're all out of set which is unfortunate and not really healthy for Archery.

    Focused Shot
    Not much really to say in terms of mechanics, it's great as a sniper rifle alternative now. Definitely agree with everyone else though about the animation being switched to use Desperate Shot's animation. That pose is super cool and it'd be nice to see it on more than just 1 power.

    Fair Game
    I stand by my previous suggestions for this one, too. In its current state, it's doomed to be DOA on live.
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  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 153 Arc User
    • The main problem with Focused Shot at the moment is that you wait 4~3 seconds to hit and then the attack feels like any other normal bow shot. I'd consider some sound effects/visual effects to help it. Alongside the before-mentioned Desperate Shot animation.

      With Typhoon & Force Cascade you get a big satisfying BOOM that knocks everything away, with the Sniper Rifle you get a BANG! Focused Shot is missing that.
    • I might be the only one, or one of the few, but I like Fair Game as it is. There's already other self-heals for other conditions, not to mention most people will just religiously keep spamming Conviction even on full HP.

      However, I do think the value of the healing could be higher. This would be a really good self heal for TT, series missions and other fights with groups of mobs involved.
    • Explosive Arrow really got destroyed with the change of the adv. It just doesn't work for archery now. The AoE range is far too small to make it a good AoE move.

      Highly increase AoE explosion so this power is worth picking, Incinerate from Fire does more damage and applies a fire debuff, so the currently short AoE range keeps this from being a worthwile power.

      'Where's the Kaboom?' Adv should return the AoE range to short, make the explosion crushing damage and do a little more damage. At the moment I still don't see why someone would want to pick the option to delay the explosion, considering the total damage doesn't change much.


    • As for the overall damage on the tree, I think the tree could use more damage. I don't want every powerset to hit as hard as PA/FC/The better Melee trees, cause then everything evaporates and that's not fun, but I do think most of the ranged trees underperform in damage by too much. There's a large, healthy, middle ground of DPS value between those powersets that could be achieved, and I do think that area would be for the best of the game and the players..

    Either way, sorry that you have to keep hearing us whining!
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    lunnylunny wrote: »
    [*] As for the overall damage on the tree, I think the tree could use more damage. I don't want every powerset to hit as hard as PA/FC/The better Melee trees, cause then everything evaporates and that's not fun, but I do think most of the ranged trees underperform in damage by too much. There's a large, healthy, middle ground of DPS value between those powersets that could be achieved, and I do think that area would be for the best of the game and the players..
    [/list]
    Force Cascade and Power Armor can't be the gold standard for ranged dps in any vaguely-balanced gamestate. These are 100' ranged AoE attacks. PA is also full mobility. Why the should they be higher dps than a self-rooting single-target 50' range attack? If you look at it objectively, it makes zero sense.

    Our current dev team has been overvaluing energy cost. Cost matters much less than more tangible limitations on powers like range, mobility, and target cap. DPS stats give diminishing returns, energy stats don't. So the relationship between energy cost and dps needs to be much more curved than it currently is. Additionally we have many tools to mitigate energy costs, like auras.

    Devs, instead of changing everything in the game to fit your equation, maybe get a better equation. Don't gut every energy system in the game to make your square peg fit a round hole.

    Thanks for your consideration.
  • aschershadowaschershadow Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 23
    I can see why Quarry boosts Physical and Non-Physical, given that several Archery powers have a Secondary non-Physical effect, but Perhaps changing it to a Ranged Version of Unstoppable, (IE Ranged boosted by x% and all other damage boost by y%[Less then the Primary boost], based on SS), but keeping the dodge/avoidance of Quarry instead of the Damage Reduction wouldn't go amiss, and perhaps adding a boosted crit chance, based on Audacity stacks on you, though that may be to similar to Targetting computer.

    Fair Game, while it's obvious you just yanked it from the advantage, changing the proc settings would, again, as others have said, be appreciated. Even if you insist on keeping the 'on kill' aspect, having a lesser heal when you trigger it wouldn't go amiss, or having it proc on Archery/Technology or whatever Crit. Having a self heal in more tree's is appreciated, but as of current, people are probably gonna stick with BCR, Endorphin Rush, or Conviction. On Kill proc's go against a lot of the content in the game.

    Caltrops; At the very least change the Icon, as of current it just uses the Gas Pellets Icon and thats a bit boring.

    Alternate Idea; Make a Caltrops Arrow or something similar, so it can stick to the ranged aspect of the set. Same idea as the basic Caltrops, but firing an arrow that drops them to make the field to slow them down keep them away from the Archer.

    Adding a 3 point advantage to Rapid Shots that would add a Shield like Submachine Gun burst or Bullet Hail would also be appreciated.

    Beyond that, I like a lot of the changes thus far, even if several animations and FX do feel lackluster. I like the fact you kept Archery as a very Movement Friendly Ranged set, with some advantages added to make you do more damage if you aren't moving.
    Post edited by aschershadow on
  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    There's a balance problem with Caltrops + Adv in that it does little to help the Archery set and instead buffs Single Blade and Bestial sets by creating something that passively bleeds enemies. Most importantly, it ends up making Reaper's Embrace deal more damage which is like wow. That power does not need to be any stronger than it already is.

    Suggestion
    If you want to keep bleeds as an advantage on Caltrops, instead of the power having a chance to apply bleed, make it so that enemies that walk into the area have Open Wound applied on them instead.
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    vonqball wrote: »
    lunnylunny wrote: »
    [*] As for the overall damage on the tree, I think the tree could use more damage. I don't want every powerset to hit as hard as PA/FC/The better Melee trees, cause then everything evaporates and that's not fun, but I do think most of the ranged trees underperform in damage by too much. There's a large, healthy, middle ground of DPS value between those powersets that could be achieved, and I do think that area would be for the best of the game and the players..
    [/list]
    Force Cascade and Power Armor can't be the gold standard for ranged dps in any vaguely-balanced gamestate. These are 100' ranged AoE attacks. PA is also full mobility. Why the should they be higher dps than a self-rooting single-target 50' range attack? If you look at it objectively, it makes zero sense.

    Our current dev team has been overvaluing energy cost. Cost matters much less than more tangible limitations on powers like range, mobility, and target cap. DPS stats give diminishing returns, energy stats don't. So the relationship between energy cost and dps needs to be much more curved than it currently is. Additionally we have many tools to mitigate energy costs, like auras.

    Devs, instead of changing everything in the game to fit your equation, maybe get a better equation. Don't gut every energy system in the game to make your square peg fit a round hole.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    Range differences for ranged powers really aren't that significant in 99.9% of the game content. Matters mildly at eidolon and teleiosaur, but that's about it. Now, melee is certainly at a disadvantage, but the difference between 50' and 100' is pretty marginal.

    Regular enemies pretty much all have 100' ranged attacks and move quickly, so even 120' range on sniper rifle or focused shot doesn't particularly matter, because the enemies will be in your face after the first shot anyway.

    Now, self-rooting is a significant disadvantage, and that should weigh a lot heavier than it currently does. So is sniper/focused's 'can't be hit' mechanic. (Sniper Rifle and Focused Shot should have the highest base dps in the game, given their significant disadvantages. They don't.)
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,556 Arc User
    edited May 23
    Suggestion: Archery is gonna need a Thematic BLOCK power now
    Perhaps one that use the whole Bow as a shield

    Suggestion: GIVE SONIC ARROW BACK THE INNATE ABILITY TO APPLIES DISORIENTED On full charge
    I don't understand why you removed this innate ability when you forced a Cooldown on this power, and I still would like a Sonic Arrow dublicate power if you are not going to remove said CD 🤨

    I want to see more flavour to the ADVs, synergies and interactions with powers! It's pretty bland right now

    This Includes RUNES, BLEEDS, CURSED and Healing options to maker an Archery Healer more viable beyond using SPECs
    avianos wrote: »
    There is a lot of Nothing-Burger going on with the Archery's ADVs and Synergies with other powerframes except really selectred few! It feels bland

    Disoriented? again? This gives no synergy with other powerframes except Telepathy! There is no special interaction between Disoriented targets and Archery neither like Might's Hurl!
    You can have it that some powers have secondary effects against targets under Disoriented debuff
    And I'm going to suggest some, because in my eyes an Archer is a Trickster

    Suggestion: Archery Powers have secondary innate effects when the Target is under Disoriented, to support having interaction between different powers and debuffs

    If Target is Disoriented the following powers will get this secondary effect
    • Taser Arrow applies Negative Ions, also consumes negative ions to create a Circuit
    • Explosive Arrow's Where the Kaboom? ADV also applies 1 stack of Serpentine Fire debuff after the explosion (refresh existing stacks)
    • Sonic Arrow applies Illumination
    • Gas Arrow's Noxious Fumes ADV will apply Debilitating Poison
    • Rapid Shots will apply Furious to yourself
    • Storm of Arrows's Achilles Heel ADV will apply JINXED
    • Torrent of Arrows's Relentless Recurve ADV will apply Reckless on yourself
    ​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • carrionbaggagecarrionbaggage Posts: 712 Community Moderator
    edited May 23
    Suggestion:
    Give Fair Game an always-on heal value (like Endorphin Rush, but with a lower base value and the INT/DEX scaling). When you defeat an enemy, the value temporarily doubles.


    This would let Fair Game contribute something in content where there aren't swarms of henchmen, while retaining its on-kill incentive.
  • crynetingcryneting Posts: 2,694 Arc User
    edited May 23
    Suggestion:

    Allow to have Arrow choices like, Holo/Psi/Ghost/Shadow, etc. Give more Bow Choices as well.
  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 515 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    Suggestion: Archery is gonna need a Thematic BLOCK power now
    Perhaps one that use the whole Bow as a shield​​
    That's a good way to ruin a bow, an evasive animation would be far more thematic.
  • ispyrotimeispyrotime Posts: 4 Arc User
    Termi, Beh and me in one night came together and shared ideas of what can be done to improve archery, some silly some well thought out some not well and Kais you can see what works what doesn't. We noticed stacking of bleed stacks with caltrops and quickly connected of currently how broken it is. Well will go over each power so let's hop in.
    ( * means I'am going to explain it at some point if I don't forget while writing this)

    unknown.png

    Straight shot as T0 power single target will always have to be picked to unlock tree and if power is going to have a debuff applier then it's safe to assume it's a supportive power and so some ideas we had are:
    2 adv - on tap up to 30% of charge applies Armor Piercing if target is rooted, snared or disoriented by you. And on full charge apply it anyway. Something like that. As for 1 adv USB arrow it only is applied if it is 40~60% of charge. Making it not stack-able on one use with other adv. Other idea is to lower charge time from 1.33 sec > 1 sec. As for other adv Dizzlingy impact is more of 1 adv not 2.
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    Snap shot is T0 power single target as well but as it's designed it is a damaging ability and when you compere it to other sets, like from dual blade Blade Tempest, these powers are used as sub dps in a lot of scenarios, advantages it gives are 2 adv Finish him which pushes idea that this power can be used as main dps* in combos, 2 adv Floating lotus blossom which opens idea for range dodge tank* and 2 adv Frail Armor which extends a debuff and i don't know why these are 2 points in hole game, they make sense as 1 adv.
    One idea is to shorten activation time from .67sec > .33sec on 1st two shots and increasing 3rd shot activation from .67sec > 1sec. This gives it feel like you shoot 1st two arrows very fast but 3rd stronger arrow bit later.
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    Quarry as T1 offensive passive doesn't work for archery it simply sucks, currently what it has you can make another passive off it but several ides we had are:
    ⦁ It deals additional damage % for Archery powers and portion of % for technology tree.
    ⦁ 1 adv It allows you to gain access to 6 types of arrows Electric, Fire, Ice, Sharp, Plasma and Poison which when combined with powers from archery act differently depending on type of arrow. Switching can be done by introducing a mini trey and add key binds for people who want to swap even faster.
    ⦁ Now passive depending on mechanic of each arrow and if you complete it's requirement it will activate additional effect on quarry which buffs you. Example:
    ⦁ Procing Bleed buffs you for 1% crit chance and 2% crit severity per stack. Making it main dps.
    ⦁ Procing Chilled applies HoT 50 hp every 2 sec over 6 sec per stack. Making it Main tank.
    ⦁ Procing Clinging Flames detonates target dealing Aoe 15 foot radius which scales per stacks. Making it CC*.
    ⦁ Procing Plasma applies a debbuf on target which reduces resistance by 2% per stack. Making it Support*
    ⦁ Procing Poison does some nasty thing. Making it Nasty.
    ⦁ Procing or finishing some mechanic involving ( you can add this to all above so they are not all rapture) Negative Ions applies EoT, energy over time to user or maybe party. Making it Support.
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    Oke, on this power i will talk the issues with archery a bit. You will see as we go on from now how they each power acts to one another and the issues it causes. In short this power doesn't need to exists, this is more of an adv to modify a specific power. So identity of this power collides with Focused Shot, they both achieve same thing, deal massive damage but they play differently. Only way i can see this power exists is to make you leap backwards and shot at the end and adjust adv and values.
    Some other power whose identity collide are Snap shot and Rapid Shot.
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    Evasive Maneuvers is T1 movement power a reverse lunge and with 2 adv it can be made into a threat wipe and has a 2 adv that applies restoration which is good for dodge users. Now issues with this power is its long **** animation, aside from that reduce its recharge to 10 sec and buff duration of Evasive Maneuvers to 12 sec, as well add to power that besides dodge it grants avoidance rating. You can add 2 adv buffs you for 5% crit chance and 10% crit severity, or something similar, some options. Give an Adv that refreshes and or applies Monk's adv at the end of animation if you have Parry*.
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    Now Energy Unlocks, just make multiple ones depending on how much of these ideas you are going to make into a reality and just fit them to fill holes
    Here i will speak about a Toggle Form that works for archery, dps role and tank role, as well as maybe dodge role as well.
    Now on Dodge tank issues, how this plays out is that there is no form for range dodge tank to exists only chilled form which every 5 sec you need go 25 feet away to proc then depending on who enemy is go back to melee or stay in range. Also on Parry make that buff to Monk adv that applies to range as well. Now i don't mind and it sounds like alot of fun running every 5 sec to proc form, but 90% of player base hate moving in this game and they like to stick to lazy powers*.
    As for how Forms can work with Quarry i described earlier i will leave that to time and community to figure out, too much thinking for one night.
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    Fair Game is T2 self healing power and going to say, great power, simple it's awesome for dps and tanks and gives dodge tanking more utility with it's 2 adv.
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    Caltrops! T2 Range AoE as Beh stated this power is broken currently with its 2 adv which makes it into a mean bleeding machine waiting to be sliced by Reaper Embrace. In short it can stack bleeds to 5 instead of 1 or 2 stacks. Another issue is its 10 feet in front of you make it that you can throw at any ally or foe, 30 or 50 feet, 15 foot radius. One more thing, add that it applies Trauma debuff.
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    Storm of Arrows is T2 range AoE power is fine if you want to just lay back and not think and dish out dmg to groups of enemies. With cd being removed now it can be used as Off tank power to gather and keep mobs threat on you. It can use maybe adv that can apply clinging flame field or electric field, or plasma field, anything at the end of full maintain or some more utility adv.
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    Torrent of Arrows is T2 Cone ranged AoE 30 degree. Looks cool and it's more fun to use then storm of arrows ( lazy power) unless this power gets buffs or more utility with adv storm of arrows will always win.
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    Gas Arrow is T3 Ranged AoE and really it's value sucks, only good thing is that you can use stealth to interrupt mobs attack with it, but there are not many ways you can self stealth yourself . Buff it's damage give it some more adv utility.
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    Rapid Shots is T3 range single target and the way currently works doesn't make sense, it's design identity clashes with snap shot , so we came up with idea that you change it to a charge attack that depending on duration of charge you get a stack then release number of arrows depending on stacks. Example:
    Every .25sec you gain one stack > that gives 4 stack for each 1 sec and in total you can hold 4 sec before releasing giving it max 16 stacks. Now how much damage it should deal, and should this power be on a cd or not. We say it should deal on properly build dps toon. 2k~2.5k damage per arrow that's basically 32k~40k in total if we take animation is 1 sec that's 6400 ~ 8000 dps.
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    Focused Shot is T3 range single target and why this power is not like Force Cascade or similar, instead there being Balista Bolt adv why don't you make it actually part of main power and that goes trough everything until its main target dealing 50% of its output and 100% on main.
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    Explosive Arrow is T3 Ranged AoE now this power i still don't know what to do with yet.
    That will be almost all of powers but as you noticed i avoided describing and adding adv to powers to complement quarry special effects, since they really need more time to write and think thinks trough we had several ideas some of which are rapturing bleeds, poisons, flames and plasma and give adv to each of main t3, but then another issue with archery is , which power is main power? There can be more powers like throwing a net arrow, well kinda like bolas, electric arrow, i don't know have variety as gadgetry. For electro like it can zap targets in between, with caltrops it gave an idea to set traps as well as net if enemy walks into it and stuff like that. I touched on range dodge tanking being possibly and i hope it goes trough.
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    Now Teaser Arrow and Sonic Arrow are both T1 Crowd control and i hope teaser arrow stays 0 recharge i will explain why, as for sonic arrow reduce it's recharge from 10sec > 6sec give it adv similar to maelstrom that it gives it 10 more foot radius of impact as well they can serve to debbuff, pure support powers.
    As someone who plays Supports a lot, and achieved many things as support such as: OT/Healing TA, TT, Slug, PG, Oub, Eido. Solo healing raids and rezzing death as fast as possible, CCing mobs setting them up in advance for dps to execute them and such with this background i speak with some objective experience.
    This would be how i rank powers based on their performance and usefulness in hole CO pve. And I'am here being objective not subjectiveunknown.png


    Powers like Banish suck ****, if it is going to be a cd power then make it worth it and having cd on a 2.5 sec power to CC ONE mob, one can ask can this power CC a cosmic foe? No it can't.
    If you want to improve these bubble cc abilities either remove or reduce its recharge to 4 sec, depending on path you take, make it more stronger or weaker. Now these bubbles you can add adv that gives them a way to repair used duration of cc by using it again on same target with out giving hr stack, stuff like that, they take 10% more dmg while bubble lasts another adv these adv are all costing on base duration for cc.
    Electrocute and powers like that (Shadow Embrace) now these would be higher if Psionic Accelerator didn't exists but it does. Now 3 secs 3!!! To activate a power that barley covers any ground and has some decent adv. Reduce it to 2 secs and it becomes much more usable power, you can die by 10 adds on you before you cast it in 3 sec then another 1 or 2 sec depending how server listens to stop mobs and put them in cc state, so that's 5 sec of being a punching bag.
    Flame Prison and all similar like this one suffers that Incapacitates breaks on slap of dmg. Now this is what bubble cc wanted for their prom but never got it. Basically you sit there and hold a power with poor value of damage where enemy stacks on 2 slaps 2 hr stacks in 2 secs ye this power, meh.
    Thunder clap maybe put it A rank its fine power lots of scenarios to use it and interrupt foes + stun is most valuable cc state.
    Dragon kick is maybe B rank, it suffers simply because its 10 foot sphere and you constantly need to move around and since thunder clap and maelstrom exists it falls behind.
    Mesh is root, and ever add has range ability.
    Sleep while great power one particle of dust breaks it which only works if you isolate adds and bring order. This works for popular kiga fight which in my opinion is boring especially to cc since you only learn is how to kinda not really manage hr stacks and how ccing works. As for TA it's great power to learn how to OT/heal with it since that lair is perfect instance to show how Sleep shines in isolated situations, while in TT you can see how it just falls flat on ground. Still Maybe you can argue its B rank since you can tap a quarter charge to cc a stack of mobs but that requires a setup, Lament usually.
    Ego storm fine power just not great compered to others.
    Chop is C rank since melee 5 sec cd, and you very rarely need to interrupt mobs attack since either tank picks them or you just tap block their damage.
    Ice cage maybe B rank simply cuz its range and can be spammed, but 2 adv is making it kinda bruh from being A rank. having interrupts is great if you know to time on every small add and can be fun.
    Barrage is maybe A rank, since it's a long range dps power and applies stun and you make a dps ccer with it and stun hole room pretty fast which is not great idea since it creates more of chaos then order.
    Telekinetic Maelstrom is great tap 25 stun sphere easy to use.
    Arrow assault most broken ultimate, 30~40sec stun, speaks for itself.
    Coward lament or Telekinetic wave, basically S rank because it gathers mobs in on spot in front of you + breaks existing cc with out applying new cc.
    Teaser Arrow is S rank 100 feet spam-able paralyze. Select and cc, you are very agile with this power and you can dodge many abilities and reposition yourself for your next setup. Which i hope stays like it is.
    Now Sonic Arrow will see i put it A rank since I got to test it out once it gets live but if changes i suggested go with it how i see it, it will be an S rank simply because of its variety and same as Taser arrow very agile.
    I hope this helps out dev team how to configuration crowd control and support play-style and move it away from being a heal bot as well content to go with it so its usable, basically ccing kiga dogs is very bad example of what ccing is capable off. TT came half developed, Eido as well came half developed, so maybe in future we can focus on actually making combat more engaging then tidious hordes of adds or boring kigatilik test dummy fights. Some ideas Beh, Termi and I came up was, like floor fights with 3 different sets of mechanics working together to make it more engaging, as well you can add Elemental reactions to buff Elemental powers.
    As always these are just combined opinions and suggestions so feel free to add changes how you wish it could work, as well fill up quarry things cuz we all 3 agree it would be amazing.

  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 584 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    Suggestion: Archery is gonna need a Thematic BLOCK power now
    Perhaps one that use the whole Bow as a shield​​
    That's a good way to ruin a bow, an evasive animation would be far more thematic.

    Maybe gadget wise you pull an arrow out, and it forms a shield? Or use the Quiver to block?
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited May 23
    Range differences for ranged powers really aren't that significant in 99.9% of the game content. Matters mildly at eidolon and teleiosaur, but that's about it.
    Mildly?! Go do Eidolon with all 50' range dps. Should be interesting.

    I strongly disagree btw. I'm gearing up both a fireball and a cascade toon atm. And the experiences are totally different. Mobs move fast and 50' isn't far. It's gross how often my fireballs cancel mid-charge. This almost never happens with cascade... since it has DOUBLE THE RANGE.

  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    vonqball wrote: »
    Range differences for ranged powers really aren't that significant in 99.9% of the game content. Matters mildly at eidolon and teleiosaur, but that's about it.
    Mildly?! Go do Eidolon with all 50' range dps. Should be interesting.

    I strongly disagree btw. I'm gearing up both a fireball and a cascade toon atm. And the experiences are totally different. Mobs move fast and 50' isn't far. It's gross how often my fireballs cancel mid-charge. This almost never happens with cascade... since it has DOUBLE THE RANGE.

    The 'matters mildly' at eidolon would be about claws being tougher on 50' ranged toons. But you're never going to have all 50' ranged toons.

    What content are you playing where mobs are moving away from you? (Stand closer to the tank?)

    Also, i'd attribute that problem to fireball self-rooting, not its range. TGM, for example, can simply follow the enemy as it moves.

  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    Also, i'd attribute that problem to fireball self-rooting, not its range. TGM, for example, can simply follow the enemy as it moves.
    Except cascade self-roots as well.. so that's not the answer.

    I get it, you don't understand how to leverage range. Some of us do, and it's an advantage to us.

    Not going to continue this argument here, since it's only vaguely related to the archery rework... and talking about this is a waste of space and energy.


  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Make Desperate Shot disable instead of stun.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,811 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Make Desperate Shot disable instead of stun.

    Oof, I don't think players have had access to Disable CC since...Thunderbolt Lunge?

    That would require balancing of a non player CC type...which would be mostly new to players.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,518 Arc User
    Maybe gadget wise you pull an arrow out, and it forms a shield? Or use the Quiver to block?
    Take out an arrow and twirl it around superfast, maybe?
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 584 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    Maybe gadget wise you pull an arrow out, and it forms a shield? Or use the Quiver to block?
    Take out an arrow and twirl it around superfast, maybe?

    That would also work, like the Laser Sword block or TK Blade and Single Blade Attack. Maybe using 3 arrows at once and using it like a fan in a way to block, spinning all of them.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,629 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    Suggestion: Archery is gonna need a Thematic BLOCK power now
    Perhaps one that use the whole Bow as a shield​​
    That's a good way to ruin a bow, an evasive animation would be far more thematic.

    Since we have the ability to shoot bullets as a type of defensive shield ala Bullet Hail, I have no problem with an archer using a bow to block attacks in a superhero world. Hawkeye did it in the MCU.
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  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    Bug
    Rapid Shots
    unknown.png
    • The Advantage's name is incorrect it's currently spelled as "Concetrated" when it should be "Concentrated" it's missing the "n"
  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    Suggestion
    • Increase the damage that Rapid Shot does.
    Reasons for Suggestion
    • The damage this power is doing currently is far to low.
    Take a look at the following:
    • The image below is a parse of Rapid Shots (Rank 2, with "Concetrated Shots" Advantage) + Straight Shot (Rank 1, with "Split the Arrow" Advantage) + Snap Shot (Rank 1, with "Frail Armor" Advantage)
    unknown.png
    And:
    • The image below is a parse of Assault Rifle (Rank 3) + Straight Shot (Rank 1, with "Split the Arrow" Advantage) + Snap Shot (Rank 1, with "Frail Armor" Advantage)
    unknown.png
    • These two powers are pretty similar in that they're both from Frameworks in the Technology Tree and that they're both seem to be mainly focused on doing damage at 100ft range, as for why I chose to compare them to each other.
    Images of the two powers below:
    unknown.png
    unknown.png
    • The damage that Rapid Shots (Rank 2, with "Concetrated Shots" Advantage) currently is doing is almost the same amount as Assault Rifle (Rank 3) which just doesn't seem like it should be the case considering that Rapid Shot in this instance is stopping you from moving when you use it and Assault Rifle isn't.
    • The disparity between these two powers that should at the least have similar damage output even if they've got different concepts grows when you take a look at Assault Rifle using (Rank 2, with "Uncompromising" Advantage) instead.
    Image of Assault Rifle (Rank 2, with "Uncompromising" Advantage) below:
    • The image below is a parse of Assault Rifle (Rank 2, with "Uncompromising" Advantage) + Gatling Gun (Rank 1, with "Listen to Reason" Advantage) + Snap Shot (Rank 1, with "Frail Armor" Advantage)
    unknown.png
    • This is just stating what I've already but looking at how low the damage of Rapid Shot is currently compared to a similar power within the same Tree that the Archery Framework is in shows that it can do with a boost to its damage.

    Notes:
    • I tested this from the perspective of someone who'll be playing as a Freeform and not an Archetype since I believe the majority of players using Archery will be Freeform and won't stay solely within the Framework.
    • The gear, mods, stats, specializations, passive, and form are the same between the tests the only changes were the utility core for damage used and energy unlock used.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    Maybe gadget wise you pull an arrow out, and it forms a shield? Or use the Quiver to block?
    Take out an arrow and twirl it around superfast, maybe?

    But...how would that block something like, say, a giant force cascade? or a firebolt? Or even a single bullet?
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

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  • psychicslugpsychicslug Posts: 545 Arc User
    maybe a close attack melee for the set arrow stab or bow hit/ have is change if you target something close with your energy building attack to do those like the earth one does. It just looks dumb to try and target a melee foe with a bow in melee.
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 584 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    aesica wrote: »
    Maybe gadget wise you pull an arrow out, and it forms a shield? Or use the Quiver to block?
    Take out an arrow and twirl it around superfast, maybe?

    But...how would that block something like, say, a giant force cascade? or a firebolt? Or even a single bullet?

    Well, jaazaniah1 answered that already. Also, maybe we should stop bring logic in games where normal rules clearly not apply. It is a gameplay aspect not a science project. Guess we make Megadestorids immune to bleeding also as well, because robots not bleed.
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    avianos wrote: »
    Suggestion: Archery is gonna need a Thematic BLOCK power now
    Perhaps one that use the whole Bow as a shield​​
    That's a good way to ruin a bow, an evasive animation would be far more thematic.

    Since we have the ability to shoot bullets as a type of defensive shield ala Bullet Hail, I have no problem with an archer using a bow to block attacks in a superhero world. Hawkeye did it in the MCU.

  • criswolf09criswolf09 Posts: 695 Arc User
    Suggestion
    All powersets in the technology framework minus gadgets have access to a power that deals little damage and a Trauma advantage is there time to make it like Bow Bash?
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  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited May 24
    Oof, I don't think players have had access to Disable CC since...Thunderbolt Lunge?

    That would require balancing of a non player CC type...which would be mostly new to players.

    I think this power is the perfect opportunity to introduce Disable CC as a choice to players given the strict <50% HP condition required to be able to use it, a condition that is largely out of the player's ability to control. Moreover, adding Disable CC to the power would start to make Archery more of a distinctly unique set. That's necessary in a rework, right? To make a set feel, play, and work differently?

    Heck, if Telepathy is the only set with a Sleep power (Ego Sleep) and that's generally acceptable to players without much balance difficulty, why not have Archery be the set that is the only one with disable powers (for now)?
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    Maybe gas arrow should have a "Sleeping Gas" advantage.
  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    Suggestion
    • Increase the AoE Sphere from 10 foot to 15 foot and reduce the charge time by 0.5 sec on Explosive Arrow and Sonic Arrow.
    • The added 5 foot Sphere increase could perhaps scale based on the rank of the power and charge time of the power similar to how the Ego Sleep power somewhat currently works in regards to its foot Sphere range, this is just a taught on how the added foot sphere range could have a cost to it.
    Images of the powers mentioned
    unknown.png

    unknown.png

    unknown.png
    Alright so, the reasons for these suggestions
    • Currently when you charge either of these powers the charge time feels very long and then its ability to hit your targets very small.
    • Unless the targets are tightly packed together which they often aren't you simply end up in a scenario where the AoE barely hits more than 1 or 2 of the targets you've engaged.
    • These are charged powers (mostly) and because of that you often take a lot of damage in the time it takes to charge them which isn't helped by the fact that the set currently doesn't have any other main source of self-healing asides from the Fair Game power when clearing mobs, which means that if it's taking a long time to charge these attacks and most of the targets aren't being caught in the AoE range when used that it's currently not very practical.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,700 Cryptic Developer

    FC.31.20210519.5
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,811 Arc User
    edited May 26
    General: Icons update. All look really nice especially Desperate Shot, Precision and Medical Arrow!
    • Rapid Shots animation adjustments - Successful! Nocking and fire speed feels very fitting now!
    • Snap Shot animation - Combo animations look really cool but!
    Bug
    Where it happens: Snap Shot animations Strike 2 and 3-
    What happens: Only the first arrow in this combo is animating. The other two do not seem to appear? I need someone else to look at this, I can't screenshot fast enough to capture the arrows firing but this is what I see so far:



    Snap Shot Second Combo Strike:

    unknown.png
    unknown.png

    Snap Shot Final Combo Strike:

    unknown.png
    unknown.png

    I may have been spamming this too fast, which might be the source of the issue, would appreciate other people testing this
    • Precision - I am crying that this isn't a Intelligence or Ego scaling Form and is just INT...but I do have a suggestion for its animation which at present is very bland. Suggestion:Use Snap Shot's Final Combo Strike animation as this forms charge up animation, if there's time add a "drawing bowstring" SFX to it and as it finishes charging add a "ping" or something.
    • Also: Suggestion:Call this form "Archer's Precision" - Why? It is SO Archery it doesn't work with non Archery powers, so why not give it a more fitting name? The Icon is the icing on the cake, but the naming would be the desired cherry on top.
    • Medical Arrow - Good looking power, I enjoy the animation. Suggestion:I think that at rank 2 or 3 the initial vapours from the rune should linger for the rune VFX.
    • Fair Game - Despite the increased stacking...I still feel like this power really does need a secondary condition like Endorphin Rush. Suggestion: Give Fair Game "defeating a foe or scoring a critical hit on a foe" as heal stacking trigger conditions.
  • criswolf09criswolf09 Posts: 695 Arc User
    edited May 26
    Bug
    Torrent of Arrows' Overwhelming Force
    When enhanced with this advantage it will apply two stacks of Armor Piercing instead of one on a Disoriented target.
    Post edited by criswolf09 on
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 11,911 Arc User
    edited May 26
    Yea, Snap Shot's arrow anim is a bit weird visually (for me, at least). The arrow sometimes seems to just grow out of the character's right hand, and most prominently on the 3rd shot (prob cause the anim is longer):

    after 1st shot:
    YCn4ZQY.jpg
    after 2nd shot:
    qTXkU1U.jpg
    after 3rd shot (very obvious):
    HYMHoMu.jpg

    And yea, this seemed to happen more often when I spammed the combo faster, for what it's worth.

    (I do like the power's new anim overall, though)
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  • redcastle56redcastle56 Posts: 105 Arc User
    Copied over and rebuilt by Marksman AT. Played around a bit.

    Feels like my storm of arrows is doing less damage. Did it get reduced?

    Like the new rapid shot. I felt that archery needed a single target maintain. Nice to have.

    So the basic rotation would be a full charge straight shot to apply AP and Download, then either Rapid shots, or 3 focused shots, then refresh.
    Timing the focused shots will be key. You can take damage and not lose the buff as long as you aren't actively charging it. So need to time between the various AoEs at cosmics. Ape will be easy. Dino will be a little trickier. Kiga will be impossible with the maintained DoT. So its very situational to take advantage of that charge discount.

    Didn't bother with fair game. Just took stim pack on both desperate shot and evasive maneuvers. Can alternate them for a pretty constant healing stream. And no reliance on kills.

    The cost increase on Torrent is pretty severe. Used to use it full charge as an alpha strike on group of mobs. Now I don't have enough energy to full charge it unless I've been in combat before. Easy enough to use it after a hit or two, but loses that initial strike use case.

    Wonder what it would be like with Ego as the PSS instead of Dex? Or Int, since more things scale off it. Might work a little better
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,518 Arc User
    Snap Shot
    Animation is a bit weird/broken. Here's a video of it that I posted on discord. No idea how to embed it here, or if you even can on these forums.

    Fair Game
    While I'm still not sold on any ability that procs on-kill (hi aspect of the machine you winner of a form you!) the stacking part makes it slightly more palatable. The heal itself should probably last at least twice as long, though. I can roll Endorphin Rush or Bountiful Chi Resurgence indefinitely over the course of a battle. I only get healing from this sporadically when I kill something, and even then not for very long. Still mostly a DoA and an anti-teamwork skill that I suspect people will probably skip in favor of the other two, better self-HoT variants.

    Precision
    To be blunt, a worse variant of Concentration in just about every way imaginable. Worse trigger condition, more limited ability scope. I can't think of any reason to use this over the other ranged forms. Instead, it'd be a lot better with the same trigger condition, but without being restricted to archery powers. Basically a ranged variant of Form of the Tempest. Otherwise, it's another DoA power that will only be used by the AT...because it has no choice. It doesn't bring any new build options to the table.

    Medical Arrow
    And here I was hoping this was something I could shoot at other players. :) That said, I feel like this could probably do more, so I'll just suggest some random advantages related to the theme of being a support/healing ability:
    • Healing Radiance [2]: Applies Light Everlasting on up to 5 allies near the target.
    • Healing Burst [2]: Heals up to 5 allies near the target
    • Radiant Shot [2]: Applies Illuminated to the target and Illumination on up to 5 allies near the target. (Same advantage as Will o Wisp/Guide)
    Also random thought: Since this power drops the rune beneath the target enemy, will it reach allies if used against a large target, such as Kiga, Ape, or Dino?
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  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,671 Arc User
    Medical Arrow seems like a nice concept however, maybe give it a SS scaling. Maybe INT like Fair Game and increase the healing rune radius to be as wide as Fissure.

    I gotta say, testing Fair Game+Storm Arrows in PH makes it look fun for clearing mobs in Lairs, especially TT. You can just run around spamming SA and get heals per kill.
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  • carrionbaggagecarrionbaggage Posts: 712 Community Moderator
    aesica wrote: »
    Medical Arrow
    And here I was hoping this was something I could shoot at other players. :)

    I'm also disappointed with the targeting. Enemy-centered runes have limited use against large enemies who body-block the rune's radius, such as Cosmics. I would love to see Medical Arrow able to target allies/self, and with a small up-front heal like Illumination was given.

    Snap Shot's Finish Him advantage looks interesting, but 8 seconds feels relatively short.

    I'm glad to see Precision, which can be useful for archery tanks. I wouldn't mind seeing the trigger requirement expanded to all Technology powers (or broader).
  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    Bug
    Caltrops
    unknown.png
    • Caltrops description says "You toss out a cluster of gas pellets" when it should say "You toss out a cluster of caltrops"
  • terminatorxiiterminatorxii Posts: 51 Arc User
    An appeal for changes to Precision, Hunter's Instinct, Desperate Shot, and Medical Arrow.

    unknown.png
    &
    unknown.png
    • I'd like to see Dexterity scaling with Precision and Hunter's Instinct as another option to use as I believe it'll provide more options to build from as a Freeform and as choices that the Archetype can choose from - Suggestion: Allow Precision and Hunter's Instinct to be able to scale off of Intelligence or Dexterity depending on whichever is higher.


    unknown.png
    • The activation time of Desperate Shot is too long currently - Suggestion: Reduce the activation time to 1 second.


    unknown.png
    • From playing the game I can say this, The Rune Effect that Medical Arrow spawns is too small to be useful in content that's similar in design to Cosmic Encounters due to the size of these types of Boss type enemies which largely determines where and how the Rune can spawn as thus who it can heal due to its current AoE range - Suggestion: Increase the AoE radius of the Rune Effect of Medical Arrow also make the scaling for the healing based off of Intelligence or Dexterity depending on whichever one is higher as I believe this would make it more unique as a Rune type healing power.
This discussion has been closed.