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Vengeful Spirits, Revenants, and Undying Justice

Hello again Bulgarex and friends!

Vengeful spirits, revenants, wretched souls, and a sense of immortal justice are an enormous part of folklore and mythology the world over. I'm absolutely positive that there are interpretations of such supernatural beings in the Champions mythos, but I don't know any by name off the top of my head. (Though Burnside in-game would be a good place to start, I imagine!)

I'm curious of the depictions of such entities. What gods, curses, and/or artifacts have created them? Approximately how many are there?

If I were to create a character incorporating one, what would be the most plausible origin for such?

Thank you for your time. I imagine this will be a fascinating read! :p

Comments

  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    - Takofanes and the Bloodmoon come to mind in this also
    - Sovereign Sons with raising Zombies as well
    - Burial Dead? Forgot the name, the location in Canada with all the ghosts and Zombies, controlled by Necrull and in the OM with, forgot his name also
    - Also in Canada the ghost haunted canyon? Which also has Eclipse Lair

    All the things that come to my mind about this now, also as side note the evil spirit incarnation that seems unused for anything in the Sasquatch cave nearby.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Well, the definition you're giving for what you want is pretty broad, which a number of different things from the setting could fit. Let me throw out a few extant examples, and you can tell me if you'd like more details about any of them. One thing I can't do, though, is give you definitive numbers for most of them. There can be as many as a particular game plot might require, and the source of their creation may or may not be inexhaustible. ;) Most of the information I'm drawing upon is from The Mystic World, the definitive source for the supernatural in the Champions Universe; but I'll note other relevant books.

    Ghosts are definitely part of the setting. The spirit of a deceased person can linger for a time on the Astral Plane, particularly if that person suffered a traumatic death, or left some important task unfulfilled. The key to their moving on to another plane is typically the resolution of the task, or settling the circumstances surrounding their deaths. That can certainly include vengeance if appropriate.

    A revenant is a spirit that has returned in a physical form to take vengeance on its killer, or at least bring them to justice. The circumstances under which this can occur are undefined and may be a mystery to mere mortals. One revenant is actually a superhero. The Constable, the spirit of a murdered police officer, is a member of Canada's premier hero team, StarForce (see Champions Of The North). Interestingly, the Constable has chosen not to seek his killer, because that would cause him to pass on, and he wishes to remain in the living world to do good and make up for his past sins.

    Some beings causing haunting events that people believe to be ghosts are actually a different class of entity, called atavisms. Exceptionally intense emotions, especially when shared by large groups of people, can generate an atavism embodying that emotion. Atavisms feed on similar emotions, and have the power to evoke them in living beings. Atavisms of fear or hatred are thus particularly dangerous, and powerful ones can motivate whole mobs.

    As the religions and mythologies of just about every culture on Earth have tangible representation in the Astral dimensions called the Imaginal Realms, spirits of vengeance or punishment from those faiths are also real, such as the three Furies of Greek myth, and Abrahamic angels of retribution.

    Certain types of deliberate magic may generate an undead creature with that kind of motivation. The outstanding example is the supernatural assassin for hire called The Curse, who was once a young archaeologist who entered an Egyptian Pharaoh's tomb guarded by an ancient protective spell. The spell transformed him into a mummy-like creature with a deadly touch driven to protect the tomb, which killed the rest of the expedition. But the magic curse had become corrupted over the millennia, allowing the original psyche to retain at least partial control of the monster, and independent thought and action beyond just guarding the tomb. You can find the Curse in Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains.

    In the CU, Death is not just an event. Death is also a sentient Archetype of that concept, which governs the passing and disposition of souls. Some beings attempt to cheat Death by lingering beyond their destined span through one means or another. Death may dispatch a servitor spirit called a carnifex to correct the situation. A carnifex will look like whatever the viewer's conception of Death Incarnate is. In the modern Western world the "grim reaper" is a popular look. The carnifex is written up in The Super Mage Bestiary.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    A question on the "Heroes and Villains Discussion" thread next to this one reminded me of another example, the Drifter. Jonathan Keyes was a district attorney in New York City in 1938, when he was framed by a mobster he was investigating and lost his job and reputation, eventually becoming a homeless alcoholic. One night he tried to stop a mugging, but the muggers killed him. But Keyes found himself in a misty landscape confronting a mysterious entity who offered to send him back to life to fight for what's right. Keyes returned with several new magical powers, including the ability to "drift" across the myriad dimensions, which was the inspiration for his new name. Over the intervening decades he learned many secrets of magic, becoming one of the most powerful sorcerers on Earth. The Drifter was a founding member of the Justice Squadron (this settings analogue to the Justice Society/League), and remains a reserve member of the team today (he doesn't age).

    The Drifter has still not learned who returned him to life and gave him his original powers, but suspects it may be some supernatural Archetype of Justice from the Outer Planes, and that he may have been bonded to a spirit that seeks to right wrongs. If you don't see what all this has to do with the way the Drifter looks and sounds in CO, you aren't alone. :angry: You can check my answer on that other thread for my thinking on the matter.
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 238 Arc User
    Wow, thanks for all the answers! (As usual, really! :p )

    I had no idea what an atavism even was, and the only carnifex I'm familiar with is a teethy kind.

    Are there any cultural or regional trends when it comes to revenants and vengeful spirits? Constable being a Canadian fellow alongside all the stuff ansemthedark mentioned seems like something!
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    Many supernatural elements in CO were added, or changed from their precedents, by the Cryptic devs. That includes most of what you see along those lines in northern Canada, in order to create an adventure zone there. Necrull in the PnP game is much more scientist than necromancer, albeit one who meddles in That Which Man Was Not Meant To Know. There had been supernatural elements in Canada before Cryptic's decrees, mostly based on the traditions of various aboriginal cultures. Ravenspeaker comes from the Haida, Tillingkoot is related to the Blackfoot, while Kigatilik is associated with the Inuit. I'm no expert in any of those cultures, so I can't address their unique spiritual traditions.

    The Sovereign Sons from the Vibora Bay source book were for the most part an ordinary street gang, as were the other gangs in VB. (Now that I think about it, Cryptic developers have been on this magic kick from the start, although they used to bring in other elements.) What they added is not often reflective of either game world or real world occult lore, so it's hard to find a consistent through-line.

    Speanoz, were you thinking of a particular type of character you wanted? If you have a concept in mind that might help me figure out an applicable origin.
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 238 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Speanoz, were you thinking of a particular type of character you wanted? If you have a concept in mind that might help me figure out an applicable origin.

    Good question!

    Might I add, I actually quite like the direction Cryptic went with the Vibora gangs. They feel like a lot more than just "ordinary street gangs", and I think that's cool!

    I have a number of characters that can sort of fall under the niche of supernatural justice/vengeance. One's a Burnside cowpolk still lingering around like much of the town's denizens. Another -- the one I initially created this thread for -- isn't exactly dead in the first place, to be honest.

    Her origin falls a bit closer to Marvel's Ghost Rider, actually. She's still alive, but a horrific event that took her family away from her has bestowed upon her a vengeful spirit. While "possessed" by this spirit, her facial features disappear into a "lightless" black void, granting her supernatural resilience and powers. She goes by the moniker the Darkest Hour.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    FWIW I agree that the supernatural in VB could have been spread around more. The PnP gangs aren't devoid of the paranormal in one form or another, it's just not pervasive, and is definitely much more low-key. I'm bothered by gangs of werewolves and zombies running around openly attacking bystanders. When you're an organized criminal you don't want to make it blatantly obvious to the authorities that they need to focus all their firepower on stopping you. But I know that was a design choice by Cryptic to give transient PCs identifiable bad guys to punch.

    As for your "Ghost Rider" character, knowing the details of the "horrific event" that "took her family away" may clarify what would be most appropriate. My preliminary thought is that the intensity of her grief, and perhaps her prayers for help or curses of the divinity that could allow such a thing, attracts the attention of a supernatural entity associated with revenge. Personally I'd steer clear of using any modern benevolent God, or spirits such as angels, just to avoid causing theological offense; although that's doable if you like. I'd be more inclined to go with pagan deities empowering her, either with a fraction of their own power or "bonding" her with a servitor spirit. Nemesis or the Furies, mentioned earlier, would be good choices.

    It could be particularly interesting to use the goddess Hecate. She's one of the most active mythic gods on Earth today, and her portfolios include protection of women and acquiring vengeance, so she would be naturally inclined to intervene. She's also said to govern the conduct of "vengeful" ghosts of the dead, as well as demons. One version of her myth makes her the daughter of the titan Nyx (Night), so Special Effects of darkness would be appropriate. However, Hecate has her own agenda and desires to increase her power, so her as a patron could have strings attached, which you may or may not want.

    If you feel like getting really dark, your character could be contacted by a major demon. Mephistopheles is especially assiduous in making deals with mortals, and more than one official super has been patronized by him. But if Hecate comes with strings, Mephisto brings a whole rope, tied in a noose.
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 238 Arc User
    I apologize for getting back to you a bit late! I'm in the middle of a fairly large-scale update for my own Odds and Ends "super suggestion" thread over on the other side of these forums! :p

    Hecate sounds like an awesome and very relevant choice! I'm all for "strings attached", too, as it sounds like it could add some great inter-character conflict and character development.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    No issues with getting back, I know life goes on. It's not like I'm sitting by the 'phone waiting for your call. ;)

    I'm glad my suggestion sounds promising to you. In that case let me pass on a couple more passages from the books to give you a better idea of what you'd be dealing with. This first one is almost the only mention of Hecate in The Mystic World, the premier source for the"mystic" side of the CU:

    "The Greek goddess of witchcraft, crossroads, and portals has long patronized the Circle of the Scarlet Moon from afar. She also now finds worshipers among lycanthropes, neo-pagans in search of the roots of their faith, and seekers of vengeance. She also visits Witchcraft and other mystic heroes now and then to ask how far they’ll go to win — she wants to hedge her bets."

    This next comes from The Hercules Force, which provides a fuller write-up and character sheet for Hecate, as well as the current (second) Johnny Hercules, and the monstrous Typhon:

    "Hecate is a dark, cruel goddess who enjoys toying with mortals. She desires greater power not only among the Olympians, but all the ancient pantheons, and will do whatever she must to obtain it. Given the enormous power certain mortals (i.e., superhumans) now possess, her schemes often involve trying to find a way to use them to defeat her enemies or further her goals without them knowing it."
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    Not directly related to this but speaking about gods here, what gods are even canon in CO and the PnP? I think I did read one character info once that mentioned Seth or Anubis, are Christian and Muslim area thing in this?

    Not wanting to start a religious talk here just about the gods in general. Is there an actual bigger pantheon? Is the Unknowable One from the Lemurians considered a god as an example? Are the Kings of Edom in a way?

    To make it Supernatural focused again I guess for this thread. Do greater forces beyond clash in the background basically? And might do powers simply cause energy to flow on earth causing this mystical origins and stuff like ghosts?
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    That is a HUGE subject, beyond my capacity to do justice to here. If you want the full lowdown on how all of this works, I would heartily recommend The Mystic World, which delves in depth into the supernatural side of the Champions Universe. It can be purchased quite inexpensively in PDF form from the Hero Games website store. However, I can attempt to give you a Cliff Notes version. ;)

    The "multiverse" of Champions is based on the Sephirothic Tree of Life, a concept from Kabbalah. The physical universe containing Champions Earth, all its alternates, and other universes which function primarily according to the laws of science, are part of Assiah, the Material World. As one ascends "higher" on the Tree one enters dimensions that operate increasingly by the laws of magic. Yetzirah, the Astral Realm, contains dimensions very close to Earth called the Parterres or Imaginal Realms. Created out of the collective imagination and belief of all human beings, the Parterres hold every god, demon, spirit, magical race that humanity has ever conceived of and still remember. That includes the modern religions still practiced today, although these are not the "true" gods of those faiths, if such actually exist (Champs lore takes no religious stand). Those gods, angels, devas and the like are also generated by mass belief, and appear as most of their worshipers imagine them, e.g. Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah as a stern, bearded patriarch.

    Farther from Earth within Yetzirah are dimensions which are not connected to Earth at all, with inhabitants independent of human belief. Some of these are ruled by godlike "dimension lords" such as Skarn the Shaper and Tyrannon the Conqueror (whom you'll find in Champions Villains Volume One: Master Villains). They're this setting's analogues to such comic-book powers as Dormammu and Trigon. Higher still on the Tree of Life is Briah, the Conceptual World, whose dimensions and inhabitants embody fundamental concepts of Reality. These are spirits of the Four Zoas of Order, Chaos, Nature, and Artifice, numbering among them the sentient Archetypes who govern such fundamental elements of existence as Time and Death. At the apex of the Tree is Atziluth, where among other transcendent concepts one can find God, by whatever name you choose to call It: the Creator, the Primum Mobile, Adam Kadmon, Brahman, the Tao, etc.

    But even universes age, decay, and eventually die. Those decrepit universes form a type of shadow or distorted reflection of the Sephiroth, called the Qliphoth. They're generally antithetical to life, energy, matter from universes like ours; but sometimes spawn their own grotesque forms of anti-life, totally alien to our own. Some of those beings have attained tremendous powers, including the Kings of Edom and the gods of the Elder Worm. The nadir of the Qliphoth holds the De-Creator, the Spirit of Unbeing, otherwise known as the Solipsist, which seeks to unmake everything that exists which is not Itself.

    (Disclaimer: Champions Online usually pays lip service to this cosmology, but the devs sometimes take liberties with how they present it in the game, or just don't have the means to convey it properly.)
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    You are amazing as always.

    One more question on this, where does Therakiel and his Nephilim fall into? Him speaking of Heaven and Hell, is this mentioned in PnP as well anywhere? Are Demons in this case literal hell beings or another plain? I have seen you in another thread mention also a Mephisto character as well I think, literal devil?
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Among the Parterres, Faerie, aka the Land of Legends, is the dimension holding the gods and creatures from myth and folklore, each abiding in a portion of Faerie resembling their legendary homelands. Elysium is a mosaic of all the Heavens of the "ethical" religions -- those which espouse a code of moral behavior rather than the whims of humanly fallible gods -- complete with gods and their servants, and the spirits of the blessed. The Netherworld is a patchwork of every Hell from every faith and mythology, with their attendant demons and damned souls. Babylon, the City of Man, combines all the great cities from across human history, and even some imaginary ones.

    The demons of the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism/Christianity/Islam), usually called "devils" to distinguish them from other ethnic demons, are organized in a Descending Hierarchy. The most powerful of those devils are the Sin Emperors, each exemplifying one form of evil. Mephistopheles is the Emperor of Pride. Other Sin Emperors are Baphomet (Wrath), Lucifuge Rofocale (Greed), and Beelzebub (Envy).

    The backstory for Therakiel, told in the Vibora Bay source book, is that he sympathized with Lucifer's rebellion but did not wholly commit to either side. Thus he was cast out of Heaven with the rebel angels, but rather than falling all the way to Hell he only fell "half way," crashing to Earth at the site of the future Vibora Bay. Feeling rejected by both Heaven and Hell, Therakiel tried to bring both of them to open conflict, and to make VB the site for that conflict. Once their forces had both been weakened he would emerge from hiding to destroy them both.

    Nephilim were added to Champions Online and aren't mentioned in the book lore. The term is found in Abrahamic tradition, but what they exactly are isn't well defined. CO's explanation is probably as good as any: "Nephilim are powerful half-angel/half-demon creatures who serve Therakiel. Corrupted beings formed out of cosmic conflict, under the control of a dark master."
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    Thanks once again, you are really a walking lexicon.^^
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 238 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    No issues with getting back, I know life goes on. It's not like I'm sitting by the 'phone waiting for your call. ;)

    It sure does! Wait, you mean... you don't wait on me?! :p
    Thanks once again, you are really a walking lexicon.^^

    Ain't he just?!
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    I must say, i find CO's cribbing from Kabbalah kind of random and bizarre. (Atziluth should be the conceptual worlds, not Briah, because Atziluth is where archetypes are/come from - ie, platonic realms. Briah is the font of creation). Also, Atziluth/Briah/Yetzirah/Assiah isn't really the Sephirot, but the four worlds (there are two interpretations that map onto the sephirot in different ways - one in which the Sephirot are divided among the four worlds, one in which each of the four worlds has its own Sephirot, where its Malkuth is the Keter of the previous Sephirot). Qlippot is an inverted Sephirot, and 'qlippot' is literally 'shells', so the shells of broken sephirot would be one interpretation.
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Nephilim were added to Champions Online and aren't mentioned in the book lore. The term is found in Abrahamic tradition, but what they exactly are isn't well defined. CO's explanation is probably as good as any: "Nephilim are powerful half-angel/half-demon creatures who serve Therakiel. Corrupted beings formed out of cosmic conflict, under the control of a dark master."

    Nephilim comes from a reference in Genesis. "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." (NIV, Genesis 6:4). King James uses 'Giants' instead of Nephilim, while more modern translations use the hebrew word untranslated, although many strands of mystical thought about Nephilim does render them as giant. The best reading of this, especially in a super hero context, is basically super heroes that are half-angels, who likely would be of greater size than normal people.

    Later, non-canonical (at least in mainstream christianity) works develop the nephilim further in different directions. The closest to canonical (the ethiopian church at least used to view it as canonical) would be the Book of Enoch. Other references are lost, probably destroyed as heretical, and there's some weird partial texts like the Ascension of Isaiah and the Book of Giants, which means the record is fragmentary, and so there's a lot of room to read in all sorts of things.

    One version almost reads like a second fall, where angels who mate with humans get cast out. (Or maybe its the only fall - the modern Satan getting cast out of heaven isn't part of the older strata in the bible, and the conflict between angels who mate with humans and those which don't may predate it historically, although neither was likely around when Genesis was first written).

    Another later version out of Jewish mysticism holds that the half-angel half-human nephilim end up being disowned by God because they commit ritual cannabilism among each other, to steal each other's power. (This version has them as literal giants as well).

    As a matter of linguistics, Nephilim is plural. Another similar word in the oldest parts of the bible is Anakim, who are a group in Canaan. They are larger than regular people and its been suggested that it means 'long-necked ones' - Goliath was Anakim, iirc. But its also been suggested it means 'sons of Anak' (or descendants more broadly). So Nephilim could originally have meant 'Sons of Nephil', but then who Nephil was has been lost to history.

    The game's interpretation of 'half-angel half-demon' is patent nonsense in a 'The Fall' context. Demons who fall *are angels*, just fallen ones. Even if we allow Therakiel a unique origin where he only falls half-way, that others would be similarly treated seems highly suspect.

    (Note: while the oldest form of Judaism does have some concept of 'evil entity', most notably "Azazel" (who was originally a completely separate entity from Satan), they're not a fallen angels, and its unclear exactly what the metaphysical original context for them would have been, because little explanatory material has survived. Satan wasn't originally a fallen angel, in fact, the earliest Satan was an angel directly serving god, a heavenly prosecutor who tested the nation of Israel with hardship. Cross-fertilization of ideas with Zoroastrianism would transform Satan into the adversary of God. The 'war in heaven' narrative with Satan's fall is a product of Jewish thought shortly before the emergence of Christianity, not a longterm feature of Judaism.)
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Thank you, squirrelloid, for very interesting background information. :) I do need to provide several disclaimers in response to your points. First, what I provided on this thread is only a very simplified version of the cosmology from the PnP game. If you were to read the discussion on the Sephiroth in The Mystic World, you'd find that some of the issues you raised are actually discussed and defined, e.g. the Four Worlds and the platonic nature of Atziluth. You can blame me for oversimplifying, but this didn't seem like the venue for a lecture. ;)

    Second, Champions cosmology draws inspiration from Kabbalah, but doesn't try to precisely follow it. The author of this multiversal structure, Dean Shomshak, modified and extrapolated from Kabbalah in whatever ways he thought would suit comic-book precedents and gaming priorities. There are no "dimension lords" in Briah in Kabbalah, for example. Third, Dean imported and wove together concepts from multiple other sources. The Qliphoth being a source of alien horrors is inspired by the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft and his imitators. The Four Zoas are lifted from the mystical poetry of William Blake. The dimension of Babylon drew much inspiration from Italo Calvino's book, Invisible Cities. Fitting all these diverse elements together required modifications to get them to harmonize. Again, The Mystic World makes that synergy clearer than I could here.
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