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Zorran, the Unknowable One

Is he like actual lore?
Or just some made up?
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I have to admit, I haven't encountered Zorran referred to as "the Unknowable One." If he's called that in CO I'd appreciate a pointer as to where.

    However, Zorran the Artificer is an official Champions villain, fully written up in Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains. He's an exiled Lemurian, and one of his people's most accomplished practitioners of their unique mechano-mystical sorcery. In Lemuria Zorran discovered a fragment of the Philosopher's Stone, a potent magic talisman which can literally transform anything into anything else. With it he strove to seize the throne of Lemuria, but was defeated and exiled. Zorran hasn't lost his ambition, and aspires to rule first Lemuria, then the world. He seeks to increase his power, most pointedly by finding more of the Philosopher's Stone (he has already found a second piece).

    There are two key pieces of information that Zorran is unaware of. One, his Philosopher's Stone is actually a fragment of the Mandragalore, that ancient Lemurian super-weapon. When the Lemurians first attempted to use the Mandragalore against the Empyreans, it malfunctioned and exploded, sinking Lemuria and scattering its fuel core over the Earth. Two, King Arvad of Lemuria secretly monitors Zorran's activities. Arvad knows what the Philosopher's Stone is, but the knowledge of how to make it has been lost. Arvad accepted exile for Zorran rather than death to allow him to gather more of the fuel core, which Arvad will use to restore the Mandragalore's full power.
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    This not spoilers any but according to the new mission, which explains it better, it is just worded odd before, he looks for the Unknowable One and not is it. So two different entities.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Hmm interesting how he looks in the artwork when you Google him
    8UoAhaz.jpg
    ​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    This not spoilers any but according to the new mission, which explains it better, it is just worded odd before, he looks for the Unknowable One and not is it. So two different entities.

    Thank you. But now I wonder what this "Unknowable One" is that he's supposedly looking for. (I'm not currently playing CO so I'm not up on the latest mission details.)
    avianos wrote: »
    Hmm interesting how he looks in the artwork when you Google him
    8UoAhaz.jpg
    ​​

    That costume is supposed to be based on styles common to Lemurian nobility, including the demonic mask.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Ah~ the Noble/Royal Purple~​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    It's nice that the devs appear to be using another of the vast roster of Champions villains we haven't seen here yet. I just wish it wasn't another magical one. :(
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Zorran is a sort of second-tier mastermind villain. He's not in Dr. Destroyer's or Takofanes' weight class, but he's very versatile, and could potentially build artifacts and golems to give him more support. Zorran has also frequently worked for, partnered with or hired quite a few villains for various schemes, although he tends to favor other supernatural villains. Introducing him to the game would make a good excuse to also add a few more of those.

    Although this isn't an official concept, for my own PnP games I paired Zorran with the Atlantean supervillain Stingray. It struck me that they have a lot in common: both from antediluvian civilizations now lying beneath the sea; both scions of their peoples' ruling elite, with aspirations of taking the throne of their homeland; both practitioners of magic. Stingray has considerable prowess in hand-to-hand combat while Zorran is wholly a ranged fighter, so they'd complement each other in battle. Them being man and woman means a potential romantic link as well.
  • dialamxdialamx Posts: 931 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    We have very little info on the Unknowable One, in game, other than "To speak his name is to give him power. To Know him is to give him power." Apparently it's some super powerful entity that is locked away, possibly on the moon (as there is mention of guardians dressed as UNTIL agents protecting the prison). There's also some kind of council that is trying to keep it locked away, and some of its members want to get the superheroes involved in protecting the prison, while others are against the idea.
    Also Zorran has used a large, shadowy figure to aid him in knocking Dr. Ka into a coma in the game's story. The figure was just a giant black cloud with glowing eyes. Couldn't see the face or a body shape. Not sure if it's the Unknowable One or just something tied to it.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    Hmm... those details don't bring to mind anyone specifically mentioned in the books. Sounds like something original the devs cooked up. (Also sounds rather pretentious tbh.) They've always been really hit-or-miss with original creations, so I remain neutral on how it will turn out.

    Just please don't let it be another incarnation of Shadow Destroyer. :s
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Just please don't let it be another incarnation of Shadow Destroyer. :s

    You just said his name. You know what that means!
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  • dialamxdialamx Posts: 931 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    You just said his name. You know what that means!

    "To speak his name is to give him power."
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    That wording is very obviously lifted from the horror fiction of H.P. Lovecraft, August Derleth, and their imitators. Since the authors of Champions PnP intended entities from the Qliphoth to be this universe's analogues to Lovecraftian monsters and gods, we're most likely getting a manifestation from CO's Land of Purple. Again. :angry:
  • dialamxdialamx Posts: 931 Arc User
    That would explain the purple smoke mixed with the black shadows surrounding the entity that Zorran summoned
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    If that's the case I'm afraid I'll definitely pass. I was never happy with Cryptic's mangling of these concepts, but after they've drawn from that same well so many times I'm just bored with it. :/

    By my estimate everything published in Champions books that has anything to do with the Qliphoth is less than 20% of the lore. And that includes things written after Cryptic bought the IP.
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    IF it is Qliphoth stuff it should be Luther Black coming back or the Avatars honestly. Those I found interesting, and they had good voice actors. I take even Viper trying to take this over again rather than another Shadow Destroyer, while the real Dr. Destroyer seems to not be a matter for some reason anymore. Besides appearing in the anniversary on screen which I not count really.
  • superalfgornsuperalfgorn Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I'll just make a brief summary of the Unknowable One:
    There is an ancient Lemurian order of Knights that locked up the Unknowable One -an ancient, powerful, and extremely malevolent Bleak One- in a prison. The Order went undercover, cancelling the information about the entity and themselves, and making it a family tradition passed in secret.
    The order moved the prison to the moon in the '60s for safety. They later helped found -and infiltrated- Until to build a moon base around the prison to keep watch.

    Now the current story (as scrambled and confusing as it is presented), also spelling is a bit random, sorry:
    This part is shown in the first story arc (Death Rattle) and is pretty cool and makes sense:
    The Cobra Lords gather technology from around MC guided and helped by Hydrophis a Lemurian that masks himself as a Cobra Lord. Hydrophis provides the Lemurian Magitech weapons to the Cobra Lords to make them more effective.
    With the gathered technology Hydrophis manages to teleport to the moon prison and meets there with Graknash (a powerful Lemurian mage) to free an ancient Bleak One imprisoned there, the Unknowable One.
    In this arc the players (with Ladyhawke) uselessly try to foils their plans, since they are always a step behind.

    Then the confusion starts with the second arc:
    Graknash wants the support of the Lemurians to stage a coup for the Lemurian throne. To do so they need to recover ancient Lemurian scriptures that relate the story of ancient Lemuria (which of course are in MC museum and not in Lemuria?!!?). Graknash and his Lemurian allies seek the ancient lore with the help of the Sovereing Sons and Talisman (why?!?)
    The players fight against them with the help of Dr.Ka, who tries to solve the mystery of the ancient scriptures and to find the real identiy of Graknash (whom Dr.Ka suspects not to be truly Graknash). In this arc Dr.Ka seems to be a prime target of the assaults by enemies, much more than the players...
    Randomly Ladyhawke discovers a family of exiled Lemurians in Vibora Bay who hold information about the Unkowable One and the rest.... We discover the existence of the Order and of the Unkowable One and a bit of their story from one of the safe-houses of the Order in Vibora bay. The house is now empty since Ladyhawke led the minions of Graknash to it. We also discover that Graknash (likely thanks to his link to the Unknowable One) is able to control Carybdis a powerful Bleak One.

    Finally, the Third Arc so far (the confusing part is that the second and third parts seem a prequel to the first one not a sequel... unless we are missing some key information):
    Graknash is revealed to be Zorran the Artificer by Dr.Ka, but Zorran uses the help of the Unkowable One to gravely wound Dr.Ka and flee.
    Ladyhawke and the heroes try to find more clues about the plans of Zorran (i.e. she goes around and the players fight the War on Peace mission without any clue as to why this would help) and end up in a secret library -again in MC- that tells them -not much- more of the story of the Order and of the Unkowable one.
    Apparently, Zorran faked to be Graknash to enlist the Lemurians, and the coup to take the throne was a cover-up to find info about the Order and the Unkowable One.
    He just needs more knowledge to ??? (control the Unknowable One/free him completely/do something else???)

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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    First off, Superalfgorn, thank you very much for summarizing these events. :+1: Lore-wise this isn't quite as improbable as it may seem.
    Before the Lemurian Civil War the Lemurians feared the Bleak Ones taking and torturing their souls after they die. If they had the opportunity to trap one I'm sure they'd take it. Although previous CO lore identified a couple of the Bleak Ones as Kings of Edom, who are already imprisoned by their ancient enemies; but maybe this order tightened the prison so the Unknowable One couldn't seize their souls.

    It's not impossible for the Lemurians to have reached the Moon at some point. One of the books mentions an ancient Lemurian facility still in Earth orbit. But they've since lost the knowledge and means to reach space, so using tech instead makes sense.

    As you point out, SuperA, what Zorran hopes to accomplish is the biggest question. He's previously displayed no support for either side in the Lemurian civil war, and he's no fan of either the Bleak Ones or King Arvad. The fate of Luther Black has hammered home the Mystic World's consensus that it's impossible for a mortal to control a King of Edom. But Cryptic devs have repeatedly shown themselves to not be overly concerned with lore consistency, or even logic at times.

    Also, yeah, more Qliphoth. :'(
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    IF it is Qliphoth stuff it should be Luther Black coming back or the Avatars honestly. Those I found interesting, and they had good voice actors. I take even Viper trying to take this over again rather than another Shadow Destroyer, while the real Dr. Destroyer seems to not be a matter for some reason anymore. Besides appearing in the anniversary on screen which I not count really.

    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • jackieboy#3897 jackieboy Posts: 46 Arc User
    No one messes with the Zohan...I mean Zorran
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).

    And aliens, of course. Very little magic among them, aside from the Elder Worm.

  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 663 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    IF it is Qliphoth stuff it should be Luther Black coming back or the Avatars honestly. Those I found interesting, and they had good voice actors. I take even Viper trying to take this over again rather than another Shadow Destroyer, while the real Dr. Destroyer seems to not be a matter for some reason anymore. Besides appearing in the anniversary on screen which I not count really.

    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).
    bulgarex wrote: »
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).

    And aliens, of course. Very little magic among them, aside from the Elder Worm.

    Sadly this, speaking of Elder Worms tho, if they focus on Magic it should be as said non Shadow Destroyer related at least. We have as example unused content in the Desert were DEMON seemingly summons Elder Worms there with a Lore Book near. But the place itself is never used for anything like a mission or so.

    I simply hope, with Lemurians, now having a focus story wise, that other factions will get such as well from now on. So we can explore each faction more in detail and be more in focus than just something on the sideline.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    I wish I knew whether the devs have no choice but to recycle resources because of budget, or if they're unable to imagine different types of stories, or if they truly believe this is what Champions is supposed to be.
  • superalfgornsuperalfgorn Posts: 558 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    First off, Superalfgorn, thank you very much for summarizing these events. :+1: Lore-wise this isn't quite as improbable as it may seem.

    No worries, it was helpful for me as well to understand the story a bit better. ;)
    I always read your nice recaps of Champions Lore, you are a precious source of info!

    Anyway, this serial story has indeed a mystical focus, but so far the Qliphotic realm seems to stay out of it. Nevertheless, we know that often, in the end, we finish there. I wish we finished underwater for once with a confrontation in the underwater temple ruins between us and Zorran.

    Btw, you are right, we need more enemy supergroups to fight in non-mystical content.
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  • dialamxdialamx Posts: 931 Arc User
    Anyone else disappointed "The Unknowable One" was just the Megalodon boss?
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    Really? That seems... anticlimactic.

    Did you at least get more Zorran?
  • stormturmoilstormturmoil Posts: 10 Arc User
    What seems to be the situation (I think) is that Zorran managed to partially wake the Unknowable one, but LadyHawke and Dr Ka (and the players) caught on to him before he was fully ready. Zorran managed to get the Unknowable to Lash out at Dr Ka, putting him in the hospital, but that also gave Dr Ka a sympathetic link to tie onto the Unknowable One's Power.

    Come the Confrontation in the Rampage, and Zorran still isn't fully ready to go through with his main plan for Lemuria, due to not having full control over the Unknowable one but thinks he does have enough power/control over the Unknowable one to make use of it to get rid of LadyHawke/Dr Ka/The Players. Cue Villain Speech (at least he gets to ham it up a bit).

    Dr Ka has predicted this, and has a countermeasure, so when Zorran binds a fragment of the Unknowable One's power (specifically, he call it out as it's aspect as the Primordial Hunger of Predation) into an Avatar to weaponise it, (this being the Giant Intangible Damage reflecting Ghost Shark) The Players are able to counter it using the Magically-charged Mines Dr Ka has emplaced, neutralising that part, at least, of the Unknowable one's power.

    Zorran, however, sees where this is going and does one once he realises which way the tide is turning; ergo he can turn up later.
    It's not clear whether he still has a handle on the Unknowable one's power, and how much of the Unknowable one's Power was tied up into that Avatar or if it can separate more of itself off, so in Theory, it could be back too.

    This may tie into him describing it as a Primordial Force of Predation: to Know something is Hunting you, preying on you, gives it a power over you Psychologically, and in Champions-verse, presumably also Magically, which may be why it's Unknowable - to try and deny it that power of Fear, it was purposefully forgotten.

    However, Dr Ka's reverse trap also counters that effect - if you know that the Hunter is about to become the Hunted, it's power is inverted.

    As for the Ghost Megaladon Boss, while I agree it was somewhat disappointing after all the Buildup, it's also sort of applicable
    as a representation of Predation that's also tied to the Ocean, and certainly Sharks have a psychological presence that makes that appearance somewhat justifiable; it's also something that Cryptic can actually represent reasonably simply on screen, and that can fit with an Underwater combat environment.

    So, All told I think it's a bit of a Damp squib, but going more ambitious might have turned out a lot worse.
    And they can always create a new, more Gribbly representation for later on if Zorran continues yanking it's chain.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    I think you are giving the devs way too much credit for script/plot development over the last year and a half. Kael hardly plays the game and knows little of the lore. They just had a shark model they had been playing around with for a few years, had a deadline to meet to finish the arc and ended up cludging the shark into the mission arc. Truth be told, I think I prefer Lemurain Invasion over this thing.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited May 2021
    Yeah you are giving them WAY TOO MUCH credit!
    Reminder: Not only he doesn't play CO at all, but doesn't even know who GRAVITAR is

    As for ZORRAN, they said during the Kaiju DEV CC that they are planning a last additional content to wrap up his story!
    Now that would be either an Alert or additional story mission! We have to wait and see
    dialamx wrote: »
    Anyone else disappointed "The Unknowable One" was just the Megalodon boss?
    Y E S
    You could say, that the series! Jumped the Shark! monkey-35.gif

    If you wanted to make a Megalodon Cosmic or Rampage, make it so, but this is lazy!
    What's next? Hyping the next series boss only for it to end on a Rampage while fighting Grond with a Purple aura and a different name? Instead of making Grond into an actual cosmic?
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Truth be told, I think I prefer Lemurain Invasion over this thing.
    I guess we peaked on Eldritch abomination with Lemurian Invasion's boss design!

    If they heavily edited the Megalodon's model instead of slapping a ghost aura and calling it a day, perhaps things would been better!
    Use the existing Model as base and take advantage of the Shark's 3D skeleton to create an entire new creature​​
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • dialamxdialamx Posts: 931 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Truth be told, I think I prefer Lemurain Invasion over this thing.

    Absolutely! That boss is far more suited for an "Unknowable One" than a big ghost shark. I think it makes it even worse that we just got done fighting this exact enemy as a cosmic level boss during the April Fools Day flood. And sure, there are people afraid of sharks, but most of that "psychological presence" of fear has faded as we've learned over the years that there are much scarier looking creatures in the deep of the ocean. The could have gotten really creative with this boss, but as jaazaniah and avianos said, they just took the lazy route.
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    While I agree that the harbinger definitely looked cool, and superior to Not-Megalodon Unknowable, I really hope you're not suggesting that the gameplay was better. I'm not saying the new rampage is a masterpiece but Lemurian Invasion was a trainwreck and boring as hell.

    Not only did it stick you in a mobfest start, it heavily based the final boss around vehicles. One could argue the entire rampage itself was originally to sell vehicles, especially since one of the rewards WAS A VEHICLE. Naturally the gameplay suffered and hasn't aged well at all. I'm happy to see it gone, and hope that if it ever does come back, it gets some serious adjustments.

    That said, and to get back on topic, I do feel like the boss design was a major cop out, and I wish they had spent more time on it. But frankly, I just hope we get some powerframe reworks soon.
  • heartstringsk3heartstringsk3 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2021
    It's weird to me that since they're getting rid of the Lemurian Rampage (or just revamping it? Not sure), they didn't just re-use the Harbinger as the Unknowable One. Slap the Eerie Presence/Ghost effect on it and bam, creepy Cthulian monster.

    Honestly I don't mind the ghost shark because I have very low standards for these, I'm just happy for any story content (although I really wish the series had stayed just a casual solo thing. Seriously, the Rampage is already dead so I can't finish the series on my alts, and that's only if I could get a War on Peace done which is also dead but slightly easier to recruit people for).
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 521 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    IF it is Qliphoth stuff it should be Luther Black coming back or the Avatars honestly. Those I found interesting, and they had good voice actors. I take even Viper trying to take this over again rather than another Shadow Destroyer, while the real Dr. Destroyer seems to not be a matter for some reason anymore. Besides appearing in the anniversary on screen which I not count really.

    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).
    bulgarex wrote: »
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    The reason Dr. Destroyer does not matter is because he is Tech based and the focus of CO is mostly on magic themed entities and events (Mechanon and Teleios being welcome exceptions).

    And aliens, of course. Very little magic among them, aside from the Elder Worm.

    Sadly this, speaking of Elder Worms tho, if they focus on Magic it should be as said non Shadow Destroyer related at least. We have as example unused content in the Desert were DEMON seemingly summons Elder Worms there with a Lore Book near. But the place itself is never used for anything like a mission or so.

    I simply hope, with Lemurians, now having a focus story wise, that other factions will get such as well from now on. So we can explore each faction more in detail and be more in focus than just something on the sideline.

    That little oasis, with DEMON just hanging around doing whatever, was one of my favorite discoveries way back when.

    But yeah. No story, just some lore discoveries with DEMON goons hanging around. Seems a waste.

    It's weird to me that since they're getting rid of the Lemurian Rampage (or just revamping it? Not sure), they didn't just re-use the Harbinger as the Unknowable One. Slap the Eerie Presence/Ghost effect on it and bam, creepy Cthulian monster.

    Honestly I don't mind the ghost shark because I have very low standards for these, I'm just happy for any story content (although I really wish the series had stayed just a casual solo thing. Seriously, the Rampage is already dead so I can't finish the series on my alts, and that's only if I could get a War on Peace done which is also dead but slightly easier to recruit people for).

    I agree.

    I hated the vehicle concept that they built the rampage around, but the enemy was there. Rather than build a new rampage around the Megalodon assets, why not build it around the Primordial One assets?

    Or if they are going to go this way then why not keep both of the rampages in the game?
    Adding a shark demon doesn't have to mean getting rid of the giant seaweed monster.

    Just alternate the two, and eventually maybe make even more new rampages that they can alternate with Sky Command, Fire and Ice, and Gravitar.
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