Making Dino Less Cheesy

jranon · June 2020

The main problem I see with the Teleiosaurus Cosmic is that the baby pops out and kills all the dps before the tanks can properly react.

The main fix I'd suggest is to have the baby out and following the teleiosaurus right from the get go even before the fight starts. That way the tanks can get it under control before everything gets frustratingly nuked.

Everything basically gets reset anyway when the baby comes out because the dps check is so high that passing it when the baby comes out is laughably hard (it doesn't really even feel that great if you do manage to pass it).

Any other changes I'd suggest for one to think about would be just making it so that if the baby dies then it will stay dead unless there's a reset or maybe if the dps check fails (but I'd make the check easier if you add the baby returning on a failed check).

Sorry for the negativity. I don't intend to be harsh or rude, but I did want to make it clear how frustrating or simply annoying it typically is...

hemslord · June 2020

I wouldn't be outright against these changes (although I don't agree that the baby should stay dead as this would just result in people bursting down the baby then returning to Teleiosaurus) but I do feel that they aren't necessary. I'd actually argue that Cosmics need to be made more complex (and not a simple "CC this thing" mechanic", looking at you Ape, Kiga & Eido) to make them more interesting and engaging, but that may be just because I've been doing them for too long.

Specifically talking about the baby breath, I've never understood why so many players die to it. The attack is heavily televised and is always the first thing that happens once the baby spawns so there really should be no excuse for people dying to it, unless they are brand new to the encounter. It reminds me of when Kiga uses his breath attack on the DPS who are completely oblivious to his facing.

Using AoE's allows the tank to aggro the baby before it has a chance to get any attack off. Some tanks don't have the energy efficiency to allow them to spam AoE's in anticipation of the spawn, but for the most part it is possible to stop the breath hitting the DPS altogether.

Cosmics are supposed to be the 'end game' so we are supposed to struggle against them, but I feel like the suggestion actually makes it easier and more simplistic.

holloweaver · June 2020

From my experience (although as a returning player I didn't played the last 4 years so maybe there'd been some changes?), the only strategic boss I know is Black Harlequin during Winter event but he's definitely not the toughest boss.

Everything else is zerg-based and the new Therakiel will follow this "zergification".

jaazaniah1 · June 2020

Some tanks are better at grabbing baby than others (helps to have a PBAoE, like a Pyre). There is a learning curve too. Some dps fire off AoEs at dino, which can then hit baby and snag aggro (temporarily) from the baby tank, so refraining from that helps with a successful baby pick up.

Also, as noted above, it is not a secret when and usually where baby is going to appear. Dps can block (which anyone at a cosmic really should have at R3) and/or pop an MD. I think sometimes some dps think that they absolutely must pass the first check when baby appears and just keep blazing away, no matter where baby appears and what baby starts to do. I'd suggest that being more defensive at that moment would help.

Dino can be done by 10 people in 10 minutes or less. Players just have to know what they are doing.

If anything, the current glitch where both dinos go invisible if the Viper Weaponry mission drops are littering the field should be fixed. That is not working as intended.

pantagruel01 · June 2020

The baby popping out and killing all the dps doesn't really matter, if you've got enough dps to pass checks in the first place it only takes a minute or two to make up for the amount of damage the dino heals during a failed check. The main thing that's cheesy about the cosmic fights is that the minimum skill requirements for scoring are super low -- basically, block, do 500 dps, and don't attack things you aren't supposed to attack. There need to be some people who are better than that, but both kiga and qwyjibo can basically be carried by a half dozen people (tank, two healers, two dps, ccer) with everyone else doing no more than minimum.

jranon · June 2020

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Some tanks are better at grabbing baby than others (helps to have a PBAoE, like a Pyre). There is a learning curve too. Some dps fire off AoEs at dino, which can then hit baby and snag aggro (temporarily) from the baby tank, so refraining from that helps with a successful baby pick up.

True, but forcing a tank to have an AoE just to grab babies attention before they kill the dps doesn't sound nice at all. If it was just made so that the baby would simply stand still for a second or two, before it starts attacking, it would give the tanks more freedom in their choices of powers and more options.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Also, as noted above, it is not a secret when and usually where baby is going to appear. Dps can block (which anyone at a cosmic really should have at R3) and/or pop an MD. I think sometimes some dps think that they absolutely must pass the first check when baby appears and just keep blazing away, no matter where baby appears and what baby starts to do. I'd suggest that being more defensive at that moment would help.

True Dps can block, but I have two dps that come to mind when the baby appears, one that can survive and tank through QWZ mobs and one that's purely dps with no defense. Both die to the babies breath with rank 3 blocks. The one low on defense dies in two hits of the breath while blocking.
Forcing the dps to become tanks just to survive the babies breath again would take from player freedom...and a lot of it...

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Dino can be done by 10 people in 10 minutes or less. Players just have to know what they are doing.

True, but the problem isn't that it's not possible, it's that it's too tedious. You can make something as complicated as possible, but it needs to not be tedious. (All the cosmics are tedious, but dino takes the cake).
It is true though that something being tedious once in a while isn't that bad as it allows one to test their skills (eidolon being good because it rarely happens), but cosmics happen multiple times a day and are pretty much mandatory endgame.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

If anything, the current glitch where both dinos go invisible if the Viper Weaponry mission drops are littering the field should be fixed. That is not working as intended.

I definitely agree with you there entirely. That is a bug that interferes with players perception and ability to react and should be fixed.

Sorry I really can't think of any better ways to put my points any less negatively x(
gotta respond to the other comments once I have time too x(

pantagruel01 · June 2020

jranon wrote: »

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Dino can be done by 10 people in 10 minutes or less. Players just have to know what they are doing.

True, but the problem isn't that it's not possible, it's that it's too tedious.

All the cosmics are capable of turning into forever fights, which is tedious, but that doesn't have a lot to do with the baby spawn, that's a very short fraction of the total combat.

jaazaniah1 · June 2020

Eh, I have characters with 6K HP who pop Resurgence or Indestructible and survive just fine. One can also take a self rez power.

I can't imagine any good reason for a tank not to have an AoE. Just makes the tanking job in general so much easier in general, not just at cosmics.

However, the main point to understand is that the Devs aren't likely to touch the cosmics ever again. They broke Eido and haven't been able to fix it for quite some time, and they won't rework the OSV system, so something that is working for many players is not going to get any attention. The devs have moved on to other tasks. Players have basically few options.
1. Develop characters and a play style that allows them to handle cosmics as they are (be glad you aren't trying to tank dino with a dodge tank; I think there may be only 1-2 builds that can do that)
2. Avoid doing the end game content that they can't handle with the builds they like.
3. Stop playing the game.

You are certainly free to make suggestions, but should also be aware that due to resource constraints the devs are not going to do them.

Tedious is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, spending hours spamming Smash alerts for Gs or Grab alerts for XP would be far more tedious for me than cosmics, which is why I don't do that, even though other people do. At dino there is always the off chance that baby will teleport into the middle of the dps and unload on them. Now that breaks any tedium.

jranon · June 2020

pantagruel01 wrote: »

jranon wrote: »

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Dino can be done by 10 people in 10 minutes or less. Players just have to know what they are doing.

True, but the problem isn't that it's not possible, it's that it's too tedious.

All the cosmics are capable of turning into forever fights, which is tedious, but that doesn't have a lot to do with the baby spawn, that's a very short fraction of the total combat.

Was doing some more thinking while at work and will have to agree with you. The tedious part is having to deal with the baby bubbles after it spawns, while it spawning may actually be a good thing, as it breaks up the tedium.

I had some more ideas on how to break up the tedium after the spawn, but I think I'll be saving that for another, more thought out, post.

jranon · June 2020

hemslord wrote: »

I wouldn't be outright against these changes (although I don't agree that the baby should stay dead as this would just result in people bursting down the baby then returning to Teleiosaurus) but I do feel that they aren't necessary.

I had another idea that would involve the baby needing to go down, but I'll save it for another post.

hemslord wrote: »

I'd actually argue that Cosmics need to be made more complex (and not a simple "CC this thing" mechanic", looking at you Ape, Kiga & Eido) to make them more interesting and engaging, but that may be just because I've been doing them for too long.

After having thought about it more, I agree, more complexity, but it needs to be easier for people to be able to catch on to and/or mentally handle. Knowing that the baby isn't supposed to effect you when the dps check is happening, isn't very easy to catch on to (especially when the baby ignores the rule).

hemslord wrote: »

Specifically talking about the baby breath, I've never understood why so many players die to it. The attack is heavily televised and is always the first thing that happens once the baby spawns so there really should be no excuse for people dying to it, unless they are brand new to the encounter. It reminds me of when Kiga uses his breath attack on the DPS who are completely oblivious to his facing.

I think that the problem isn't that it's not easy to see coming, but it's that most of the dps aren't tanky enough to survive it even with a rank 3 block. At least that's the issue I've had.
Though after some thought I actually think it's okay that the baby can pop out ans smear the dps. Makes it more interesting (especially since recovering is such a thing in this game).

hemslord wrote: »

Using AoE's allows the tank to aggro the baby before it has a chance to get any attack off. Some tanks don't have the energy efficiency to allow them to spam AoE's in anticipation of the spawn, but for the most part it is possible to stop the breath hitting the DPS altogether.

I kinda realized that the dps going down isn't actually so bad as it's actually really easy to recover after the baby is aggroed and taken care of. And that my thinking that an AoE is mandatory isn't really true, but is just really nice to have in the situation.

hemslord wrote: »

Cosmics are supposed to be the 'end game' so we are supposed to struggle against them, but I feel like the suggestion actually makes it easier and more simplistic.

Right on all accounts there. Been rethinking my ideas to try to keep it challenging (or at least intimidating) while trying to think of ways to make it more accessible, fun, and thrilling.

jranon · June 2020

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Eh, I have characters with 6K HP who pop Resurgence or Indestructible and survive just fine. One can also take a self rez power.

I usually take a self rez and a regular rez power on all my toons

I usually don't have room for an active defense for most of my builds besides my tanks due to that, but would make room for them if they seemed more useful than a self rez in the rest of the game.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

I can't imagine any good reason for a tank not to have an AoE. Just makes the tanking job in general so much easier in general, not just at cosmics.

True, I've really just have had problems fitting one in. Though, I still think it should be optional and thinking more about it, it is (just rather devastating to not have one in some cases, like with dino's baby).

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

However, the main point to understand is that the Devs aren't likely to touch the cosmics ever again. They broke Eido and haven't been able to fix it for quite some time, and they won't rework the OSV system, so something that is working for many players is not going to get any attention. The devs have moved on to other tasks. Players have basically few options.
1. Develop characters and a play style that allows them to handle cosmics as they are (be glad you aren't trying to tank dino with a dodge tank; I think there may be only 1-2 builds that can do that)
2. Avoid doing the end game content that they can't handle with the builds they like.
3. Stop playing the game.

You are certainly free to make suggestions, but should also be aware that due to resource constraints the devs are not going to do them.

I wasn't aware of Eido being broken. Hopefully they can fix it and get over the fear of messing up again. But yeah, I get it if they don't touch cosmics again. Still want to give some ideas to them in hopes of either inspiring them or just giving them ideas if they ever decide to go at it again.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Tedious is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, spending hours spamming Smash alerts for Gs or Grab alerts for XP would be far more tedious for me than cosmics, which is why I don't do that, even though other people do. At dino there is always the off chance that baby will teleport into the middle of the dps and unload on them. Now that breaks any tedium.

Got me laughing and opened my mind a bit to realize that the baby popping in with little opportunity to catch it actually isn't the problem (and may actually be good in a way).

Making Dino Less Cheesy

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