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Feedback: Might Framework Power Changes

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  • jenniferloganjenniferlogan Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Bug?: Blindside is not refreshed by Uppercut+Setup
    Where it happens: Powerhouse Battlestation
    What happens: After applying Blindside with Uppercut+Setup, the Blindside buff timer is not refreshed for subsequent fully charged Uppercut+Setup.
    Post edited by jenniferlogan on
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 11,802 Arc User
    Bug: Blindside is not refreshed by Uppercut+Setup
    Where it happens: Powerhouse Battlestation
    What happens: After applying Blindside with Uppercut+Setup, the Blindside buff timer is not refreshed for subsequent fully charged Uppercut+Setup.
    I'm not certain, but this may be intended, as Uppercut w/ the adv benefits from its own buff. Similar thing happens w/ Beatdown's version when spamming Beatdown (doesn't refresh; instead uses/consumes it).
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  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    Impressive Physique
    Is it possible to change it's activation time to 0,5sec instead of 1 sec? Tested it with some friends and I can hardly heal them fully even with all STR. Other maintain heals have 0,5 sec activation time so may not be a bad idea.
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  • jenniferloganjenniferlogan Posts: 44 Arc User
    A long source of annoyance for me has been the way Havoc Stomp and Shockwave can be used while airborne. There's no ground to stomp or pound, respectively. Possible exception if the user is using a board or platform to stand on. Cost-benefit of doing anything about this might be a bit too low though and touching animations usually sets off a fraction of the playerbase. Nonetheless...

    Suggestion
    Use different animations for Havoc Stomp and Shockwave if the user is flying. For Havoc Stomp, possible options would be to copy Thunderclap's animation (certain enemies charge Thunderclap, so it could be a good fit), shout animation, or a spin up and shockwave release (might work best with Major Impact advantage as a vortex could pull in enemies). For Shockwave, it gets trickier as it is a cone maintain. Only things that fit off the top of my head are breath or scream animations. The former would likely be a better fit, given the direction of the resulting wind could be adjusted depending on the chosen advantages.

    Actually preventing airborne use in exchange for other adjustments is liable to be a terrible idea though, as it will cripple a character in certain content. A couple of the rampages (Sky Command, Lemurian Invasion to some extent) spring to mind.

  • jenniferloganjenniferlogan Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Bug: Blindside is not refreshed by Uppercut+Setup
    Where it happens: Powerhouse Battlestation
    What happens: After applying Blindside with Uppercut+Setup, the Blindside buff timer is not refreshed for subsequent fully charged Uppercut+Setup.
    I'm not certain, but this may be intended, as Uppercut w/ the adv benefits from its own buff. Similar thing happens w/ Beatdown's version when spamming Beatdown (doesn't refresh; instead uses/consumes it).

    True, it could be WAI. I'll add a question mark. I assumed it wasn't as there are other powers that do benefit in a similar way. The specific example I'm thinking of is Elbow Slam + Falling Hammer, which will refresh a previously applied Demolish stack (which comes from the advantage). Granted, that is a target debuff rather than a self buff.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Brute Force
    If you are at 3 stacks of this effect, triggering this effect will refresh existing stacks.
    This is an awesome BUFF and makes the using it more comfortable than just spamming like a maniac knocks :+1:

    I high-key wish Overdrive would be updated to do the same​​
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Unleashed Rage
    Now deals Crushing damage.
    Replaced Fear effect with Disorient.
    New Advantage (1): Changes damage to Sonic typed.
    hmm this adv is 2 points adv in PTS, was this intentional or a typo?
    Losing rank 3 for a simply damage type change doesn't seem to worth it​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events
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  • wolfrisgerrwolfrisgerr Posts: 7 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Meat Shield
    New Block Power (Uses Valiant or Flex_Low emote)
    Gives 250/300/360% all dmg resist based on rank. 10/15/20% Chance to apply Reckless on self.
    3pt advantage that either gives Retaliate buff of Blindside Blow buff.


    I was baby tanking during dino and this thought crossed my mind. Wouldn't it be a neat idea if we had a block power while looking cocky? We have Valiant and Flex_Low emote for this. It would be a waste if it weren't used as such. XD

    Double this. Since we have 2 exactly same block with only difference stance (retaliation and Guard), It would be nice to have another block for the might type.

  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,688 Cryptic Developer

    FC.31.20190810.19
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    Blindside Buff doesn't get consumed by DoTs now and gets consumed by the third hit from a Brick Power like the notes intended.

    This buff doesn't seem good for Beatdown+Haymaker since it doesn't buff Haymaker if you're Setup spec. The rotation will be:
    Beatdownx3(buff)>Haymaker>Beatdownx3(buff consumed)
    HOWEVER, it's can be useful for Uppercut+Haymaker since the rotation goes
    Uppercut(buff)>Haymaker>Uppercut>Haymaker(buff consumed)

    Although, I'm seeing bigger numbers from Haymaker using the Setup spec instead of the Blindside buff.
    I would suggest that the On-3rd-hit req be removed, but that would probably make haymaker even more OP.
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Haymaker
    Lowered bonus damage on knock resistance targets from 0-60% (based on charge time) to a flat 30%.
    Slightly increased base damage and cost.
    Removed Enrage effect.
    Removed Nullifying Punch advantage.
    New Advantage (2): Increases base damage if affected by Reckless.
    New Advantage (5): Dramatically increases the damage of this attack for every stack of Enrage on you. Requires being fully charged. Cannot move while charging. Purges all form stacks and puts this power and ultimate powers on long cooldown. Using an ultimate power also places this power on cooldown.
    I have noticed among other players, 1+ week now, that the One Punch ADV's effect has been Disabled but it's still purchasable

    I still hold to my previous suggestion
    If Anything I would Suggestion: Scrap the 5 point One Punch Is All I Need ADV from Haymaker and make it an entire new FREE ultimate, giving it to Behemoth! Just a reskin power

    Honestly Behemoth getting Warcry as lvl 40 final power is pretty lame​​
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  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    Bug: "I only need one punch" advantage is not working for me
    Where it happens:buy the advantage
    What happens:the power remains base haymaker.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bug: "I only need one punch" advantage is not working for me
    Where it happens:buy the advantage
    What happens:the power remains base haymaker.

    That's intentional atm. They gutted it since it wasn't working right.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    Bug:
    War Cry
    Rank 2 gives 3 stacks of Reckless instead of 2.

    Rank 1 and 3 seems fine.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Bug:
    War Cry
    Rank 2 gives 3 stacks of Reckless instead of 2.

    Rank 1 and 3 seems fine.

    I reproduced this by getting War Cry, using it at Rank 1, then ranking it to Rank 2 and using it again, then Rank 3 and using it again. Made sure to wait and let Reckless stacks fall off in between uses. 1/3/3 just like growthdragon says. I mention this since Kaizerin said they could not reproduce this bug.

    EDIT: Just noticed something. If I'm standing next to the trainers when I use it, I get 3 stacks at Rank 2. When I move far enough away that they would be out of its range, I only get 2 stacks. It seems that friendly targets are causing the 3rd stack.

    EDIT2: This also happens near hostile npcs.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Nuclear Shockwave
    No longer needs to be charged.
    Reduced radius to 10ft (from 20).
    Increased target cap to 7 (from 5).
    Increased damage and cost.
    Increased cooldown to 30 seconds (from 0).
    Now has a chance to apply Particle Burn based on rank.
    Now Knocks back, down or repels targets based on distance from you.
    Updated visuals.
    New Advantage (2): Applies Disintegrate to targets.
    I know people are just gonna ignore this power but Please don't ignore this power
    It was already the worst out of the 3 OSV power unlocks and the less popular, hell even Gravity Ripple is more fun utility than this
    if anything it needs to follow the 20-CD rule Lance Rain and Rocket got so far, 30 seconds is overkill

    also there is a huge lack of utility, i always suggested ways to imrove it
    I beg you to reconsider​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events
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    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life but I'm running out of unique FF builds!
  • redcastle56redcastle56 Posts: 99 Arc User
    Was thinking about the might revamp while on vacation. And something bugs me about the new reckless mechanic. Nothing from a game balance standpoint, but more a conceptual issue.

    Might is the most "basic" of the "superhero" powers. Big strong guy (or girl) punching things a lot and soaks up a lot of damage. (Hulk, Thing etc)

    The problem is that now the reckless buff is a core mechanic to the set, and reckless will grant you a bastion shield. Sounds nice from a play perspective, but think about it from a roleplay stance.

    Big strong thing punch something. Then for no reason whatsoever, gets a mysterious shield around them. Makes absolutely no sense. It becomes a mechanic that intrudes on RP. You either have to pointedly ignore it, or else come up with some convoluted explanation as to why it is there.
    WarCry is even worse. I shout a battle cry to rally the team. Yay! Then again for no explainable reason, they get a force field around them.

    I know its minor, but wondering if there is a better way to represent this that doesn't appear to be a force field/shield.

    Most other effects make some sort of sense. Demolish, Knocks, Disorient, Blindside. But this one doesn't. Its there purely to add some sort of effect/balance to the powerset.

    Defender gloves don't bother me as much, You are choosing to wear a piece of gear that gives you a shield. Easy enough to explain.

    But Reckless -> Bastion is a conceptual oddity. And also hard to ignore or avoid.


  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,805 Arc User
    Unless you explain it away by them having technology or abilities which mean they convert some of their energy from punching or striking a target into shields.

    I mean...there are loads of ways to explain these things away from an RP perspective, you've just got to think about it. Equally, you can Knock people around using Might without the Reckless buff.
  • redcastle56redcastle56 Posts: 99 Arc User
    That's my point, you have to explain it away.
    Actually, now that I think about it, the native shield with Defensive Combo has the same problem. (and its a core function, so you can't not have it.)

    No matter which combo you take, (beatdown has a chance to apply reckless) you will end up with a shield just for punching someone.

    And while you can build a might character without reckless, Its not easy, Its there by default on beatdown. Most Haymaker builds are going to use it. The fact that many of the attacks have an option to stack it shows how core it is expected to be.

    Don't get me wrong. From a gameplay its useful. Having both a DC shield and a Bastion shield at the same time is nice. But I wish it wasn't so visible. That it just worked behind the scenes as it were.

    And with warcry its just silly.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    I'm not seeing a visual for the shield. Is there supposed to be one? If not I don't see why you have to think up an explanation for having a few extra temporary hit points .-.
  • Impressive Physique - Heal
    45 Energy initially cost
    30 Energy per cost 1 sec
    1 sec activate time (8 max)
    Affects friend (5 max)
    20 foot Sphere
    6 seconds recharge

    Maintain
    Affected targets are healed for +361 Health Points every 1 sec.

    Absorbs up to 403-6,854 damage (absorption scaling up over time). This effect reapplies every 1 sec.

    Other mechanics: The heal on this power scales with your Strength instead of your Presence
    Does not heal yourself

    Pros
    Does not require a target to activate
    Highest scaling shield
    High base AoE healing value without condition (no need for something like poison or dependency)
    Heal does not scale down based on number of targets
    Double tick heal after maintained for 1s
    Maintainable for a long time
    Increased healing based on Strength

    Cons
    6 second cooldown
    Does not scale off Bonus Healing
    Long 1 second activation time
    Slow ticking at 1 second per tick
    Roots in place
    Does not heal self
    Very high energy cost
    Does not deal damage
    Shield does not last beyond maintain

    Analysis
    It’s… a heal power. So you can heal with it. It’s a difficult power to talk about. At the moment, the power has few positives to justify its extraordinary shortcomings which consequently makes it quite a task to identify a purpose for the power beyond basic levels like “type”.

    “But BK, it scales on Strength instead of Presence! This would be a good heal for DPSes that stack strength!”

    First, I would like to point out, to the best of my knowledge, that there is not a single heal that scales off Presence. The power stating that it scales with Strength “instead of your Presence” gives off an incorrect implication that other heals do scale off Presence, but they do not. What it should actually say is “scales with Strength instead of your Bonus Healing”. This means that slotting Sentinel’s Brooches or Presence mods won’t affect the power. Bonus healing from role superstats won’t affect the power. The power will be as good in Hybrid as it is in DPS role.

    Okay, so it does scale off strength, but only very slightly. At 676 Strength, you will heal 565 per second. That is 56% better than base value. It does end up making this power heal more than other heal powers with the same stats. But is it usable?

    Unfortunately, for DPSes, no. The power has a high energy cost that is not sustainable for a DPS. Even with strong cost discount, the power still costs 25 energy initially and 17 energy/sec. The problem is compounded by the fact that the power is difficult to use in conjunction with a non-support form or any EU. The power doesn’t deal damage, so ranged forms wouldn’t work. The power doesn’t knock or bleed, so you can’t use it with the STR forms. You’ll need to use your EB a lot to save up energy before using this power, otherwise you can only expect something like 3 ticks of heal.

    So in the end, the power ends up being for support roles since they are the only role that can support the energy cost with their forms and role energy bonus. But… that is directly contradicted by design since it scales off Strength and not bonus healing. Are we supposed to have supportive healers that use Compassion and stack Strength? ??I don’t know??

    Okay, but even on top of having a giant energy cost and not being able to utilize bonus healing, the power has a 6 second cooldown. This alone negates any higher healing benefits this power could have had since this much downtime lowers the effective average HPS of the power by making your healing output 0 for 6 seconds. The cooldown also introduces a myriad of problems related to usage.

    If used and knocked or held, can’t heal with the power for 6 seconds. Worst case scenario, you got no healing off and now have to wait.

    6 seconds? In that amount of time, a tank can get bitten twice by dino. Where’s your healing then?

    Agh! I can’t bear thinking about such frustratingly poor design. There’s plenty more issues that I could go on for hours about than I really care to talk about. It should already be clear enough that this power is not good. The lazy, bare minimum change should be no cooldown on the power. Pls fix.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    It's clearly not meant for constant healing, it's meant for stuff like Kiga ice storms, or other situations where people around you are suddenly taking a bunch of damage. It's not meant to turn your punch-person into a full time healer. As for your energy concerns... I dunno I use it fine in PTS, I doubt I'll have issues on live with some auras on me. As for healing bonus not affecting it, great! I won't be motivated to gimp my dps by doing something silly like trying to stack healing bonus. Win win situation right there \o/
  • spinnytop wrote: »
    It's clearly not meant for constant healing, it's meant for stuff like Kiga ice storms, or other situations where people around you are suddenly taking a bunch of damage. It's not meant to turn your punch-person into a full time healer. As for your energy concerns... I dunno I use it fine in PTS, I doubt I'll have issues on live with some auras on me. As for healing bonus not affecting it, great! I won't be motivated to gimp my dps by doing something silly like trying to stack healing bonus. Win win situation right there \o/

    Good luck trying to burst heal 5 players through a maintained kiga storm that does near 4x the damage of your heal ticks to each member of a full zone of 35 players at kiga while also trying to upkeep your energy. You'll be standing there not helping damage tombs or kiga and eating damage in the face because your shield is too weak to be useful, waiting for a real healer to patch up your stupid face and the players around you while you proclaim to yourself "I'm helping!"
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    I do stuff like that with my dpsers right now so I doubt I'll need luck.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It's clearly not meant for constant healing, it's meant for stuff like Kiga ice storms, or other situations where people around you are suddenly taking a bunch of damage. It's not meant to turn your punch-person into a full time healer. As for your energy concerns... I dunno I use it fine in PTS, I doubt I'll have issues on live with some auras on me. As for healing bonus not affecting it, great! I won't be motivated to gimp my dps by doing something silly like trying to stack healing bonus. Win win situation right there \o/

    Good luck trying to burst heal 5 players through a maintained kiga storm that does near 4x the damage of your heal ticks to each member of a full zone of 35 players at kiga while also trying to upkeep your energy. You'll be standing there not helping damage tombs or kiga and eating damage in the face because your shield is too weak to be useful, waiting for a real healer to patch up your stupid face and the players around you while you proclaim to yourself "I'm helping!"

    We or at least I've been suggesting Kaiz to buff it up a bit. But I don't she'll let it since it's just a dumb power for laughs. It's pretty obvious with the animation. I still think a melee dps who doesn't aim for a top score can have fun with this power. It's not meant to be a main heal anyway. They can still use Resurgence(or any HoT) to heal themselves (and devices). Plus, tombs get melted by ranged aoe so single target dps rarely get to help.

    If Kaiz could just consider buffing it to 0.5sec activation and give it a slight boost from Bonus Healing, it would be great.
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  • redcastle56redcastle56 Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Re my comments on the visual effect of the bastion/Defensive combo shield.

    I just checked in PTS again. I mixed up the health bar effect with the "in game" effect. While the shields do tint the health bar to so shield strength, the do not have a direct visual effect on the character. So I take back my concern. Non-issue. (thats what I get for thinking about CO while not in front of the game.)

    That said. I'm seeing a lot of bugs with the reckless->bastion application.
    • If you have Primus Spark Shield equipped, There is a bug with the bastion countdown timer representation. It resets to 10 every time you take damage. Even if the shield is gone. So if you are taking damage, it flashes 10 with each hit you take, even though there is no shield, and then vanishes after 10 sec. My guess is the reflected damage is causing some odd effect that tries to apply it but doesn't.
    • Indicator stays around even if the shield is gone. Given how fast the shield actually goes away, this may not be avoidable. Particularly if you are under any DoTs. Shield appears, DoT immediately eats it for lunch. May also be Primus Spark Shield related.
    • Inconsistent application. Doesn't stack with each hit. I actually seem to get the best reliable application with clobber. taps of demolish or haymaker often don't trigger a stack.
    • AoEs cause it to stack instantly on a group of mobs. WarCry followed by shockwave, instant 10 stacks.
    • Sometimes towards the tail end of reckless it stops getting applied (though this may be just more inconsistent application.)
    • At one point, I did get a bubble. I don't know exactly what the cause was, but it was definitely there for a second

    Also, since the strength of each stack is dependent on the amount of damage that cause it, you get very inconsistent behavior. You can have 10 stacks with 40 pts of shielding from a light aoe, or a single stack with 400 pts of shield from a haymaker.
    Which also means that if you reach 10 stacks with weak attacks (or AoE) (and you manage to still have the shield up) then your strong attack doesn't do anything. (which is why the drop from 100 to 10 stacks is a slight weakening of the power)

    Makes me wonder if the whole mechanic is overcomplicated. Why not just make it a straight heal? Instead of the overhead of a shield constantly applying and getting consumed, why not just self-heal based on your damage. Same basic effect, you get more HP. (Yes I know the shields can get applied on top of a full HP bar, but odds are if you have a full HP bar, you aren't taking damage and don't need the shield. )

    Also, (and I hate to say this) I think Defensive Combo shield may be too strong. I was soloing Nighmare demolishers in QWZ, Was able to get the DC shield up to 3k, and it was refreshing every hit. Even with the Demolisher and 2 brutes hitting me, they couldn't get past the shield. I just had to keep spamming it and I was basically indestructible. Haven't tried it at comics though yet.

    FYI, slicers vs defenders with DC. I think slicers were actually slightly better. The extra damage from them making the DC shield slightly stronger vs the bastion from Defenders. (and given that I could keep reckless up with taps of warcry or mightly leap anyway) But it was minor. I was able to get a 3.1k shield with slicers, vs about a 3070 with defenders. So well within the margin or error.
    Post edited by redcastle56 on
  • mordray001mordray001 Posts: 218 Arc User
    • At one point, I did get a bubble. I don't know exactly what the cause was, but it was definitely there for a second
    I've seen that with anything that applies a shield effect. It's an effect related to the Force Field passive, grabbing a blue/yellow would replenish some of it's shield points and created a 'shield' bubble around the user for a moment. Now if anyone is using a power that generates a shield that happens if they collect a blue or yellow buff/boost thing.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,569 Arc User
    Just wondering if it has any potential use away from cosmcis? Not every power has to exist to optimize performance at those.
    Impressive Physique - Heal

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  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Just wondering if it has any potential use away from cosmcis? Not every power has to exist to optimize performance at those.
    Impressive Physique - Heal

    Team content I suppose. Like Alerts and Lairs. It's definitely not a recommended power for soloists.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Just wondering if it has any potential use away from cosmcis? Not every power has to exist to optimize performance at those.

    Turn on a hot, take the stun advantage, use it while stuff is swarming you. Could be a good recovery tool while soloing in QWZ. I'm certainly gonna try it at least once... and then I'll retcon out of it since I think the power looks silly o3o
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    I have to wonder if Impressive Physique-themed healer builds are going to be a thing, or people are going to abandom this Novelty really fast
    Nuclear Shockwave
    New Advantage (2): Applies Disintegrate to targets.
    I see this ADV was removed from PTS (and the power still sucks with 30 sec cd)​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life but I'm running out of unique FF builds!
  • mordray001mordray001 Posts: 218 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    I have to wonder if Impressive Physique-themed healer builds are going to be a thing, or people are going to abandom this Novelty really fast​​
    That will largely depend on the community. If the community can accept a new standard of build with a role that is more akin to a hybrid then perhaps it will survive. If not then no, the strength healers will join the rest of us hybrids on the sidelines, while the min/maxers play in their role enforced groups.
  • wolfrisgerrwolfrisgerr Posts: 7 Arc User
    That's my point, you have to explain it away.
    Actually, now that I think about it, the native shield with Defensive Combo has the same problem. (and its a core function, so you can't not have it.)

    No matter which combo you take, (beatdown has a chance to apply reckless) you will end up with a shield just for punching someone.

    And while you can build a might character without reckless, Its not easy, Its there by default on beatdown. Most Haymaker builds are going to use it. The fact that many of the attacks have an option to stack it shows how core it is expected to be.

    Don't get me wrong. From a gameplay its useful. Having both a DC shield and a Bastion shield at the same time is nice. But I wish it wasn't so visible. That it just worked behind the scenes as it were.

    And with warcry its just silly.

    What I think is that...you get a shield because you hit or got hit by your enemy, with your super strength thing you boost your muscles etc which makes you become tougher and can take extra damage.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    mordray001 wrote: »
    That will largely depend on the community.
    No, it really doesn't. It depends mostly on whether the power sucks.
  • mordray001mordray001 Posts: 218 Arc User
    mordray001 wrote: »
    That will largely depend on the community.
    No, it really doesn't. It depends mostly on whether the power sucks.
    And who decides that? Also by what measure is this concept of "sucks" defined?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    mordray001 wrote: »
    And who decides that? Also by what measure is this concept of "sucks" defined?
    Comparison to other powers that have similar overall purpose?

    Flex has a couple problems compared to a dps taking, say, Life Drain or Mind Drain.
    1. It doesn't trigger likely dps forms or energy unlocks, so energy is a problem.
    2. It doesn't benefit from likely dps crit specs (my telepathy dps has find the mark and focused strikes, both of which will help mind drain). Even with that, the healing rate is a bit better (if I put flex on my might dps, with crits it would work out to 751/sec, while mind drain on my telepathy dps is only 631/sec), but it reduces the difference.
    3. A lot of nasty effects are fairly slow tics (e.g. Kiga storms are a 2s tic), which means the shielding is generally going to be inferior to healing.
    4. It doesn't do damage, so to benefit from effects such as sentinel mastery or illumination you need another power. Also, well, it doesn't do damage, it's not like life drain/mind drain have impressive dps, but it's still not nothing.
    5. It has a cooldown.
    6. One sentinel core would probably push the mind drain healing above flex, at a minimal dps cost.
    Post edited by pantagruel01 on
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    It is unique however in the fact that it is the only heal that scales off strength, which makes it difficult to compare to other heal powers since none of them share that utility. Ultimately mordray is right, it depends if people actually decide to make it or not. Not everyone decides what power to use with a spreadsheet and a calculator.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,569 Arc User
    When ever I see a power like this I think of Nova Flare. I've never had a use for it myself and I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else use it.

    You'd think that, after 10 years and with a former player as a dev, there wouldn't be any more powers that people won't end up using.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    I'd be shocked if we don't see people posing and flexing at Kiga. In fact I'm sure there will be times where we wonder if we suddenly got transported to an arctic bodybuilding contest.
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 153 Arc User
    What usually happens to powers like that is that at first people will pick it for the fun of the power, then soon abandon it as it doesn't give much for their builds.

    I hope more attention (and care) is brought to this power (Flex Heal, not to be confused with the power of Flex Tape), even if it has to be balanced slowly over several weeks after being released.

    The fact it doesn't benefit from bonus healing at all kills off anyone using compassion or specs for bonus healing. And that would be fine if there were more ways for those builds to heal without the need of bonus healing.

    Also, I don't see why it needs long activation & tick timing if it already has a 6 second cd, which is quite long for a healing power, which also doesn't heal yourself. Oh and the high energy costs: Yeesh.


    At this point I'd rather it just be yet another copy-paste of Life Drain (though I suppose Life Essence is more accurate) and whatnot but with Stagger as the debuff check.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It is unique however in the fact that it is the only heal that scales off strength, which makes it difficult to compare to other heal powers since none of them share that utility.
    I'm comparing 'healing at 676 Str' to 'healing at 80 Pre in ranged dps role'. Taking into account the strength investment required just makes the power look worse.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It is unique however in the fact that it is the only heal that scales off strength, which makes it difficult to compare to other heal powers since none of them share that utility.
    I'm comparing 'healing at 676 Str' to 'healing at 80 Pre in ranged dps role'. Taking into account the strength investment required just makes the power look worse.

    Uh huh, but that Strength also lets you punch things really hard.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    lunnylunny wrote: »
    What usually happens to powers like that is that at first people will pick it for the fun of the power, then soon abandon it as it doesn't give much for their builds.

    There's a certain crowd that this certainly applies to.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,688 Cryptic Developer
    The heals not scaling off of heal rating I'm going to consider a bug. Will be changed to take into account heal rating from sources that aren't presence.
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 153 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    lunnylunny wrote: »
    What usually happens to powers like that is that at first people will pick it for the fun of the power, then soon abandon it as it doesn't give much for their builds.

    There's a certain crowd that this certainly applies to.

    Indeed, and I'm glad powers like this can exist, even if 'weak'. More options are always welcome.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    kaizerin wrote: »
    The heals not scaling off of heal rating I'm going to consider a bug. Will be changed to take into account heal rating from sources that aren't presence.


    1pt/2pt adv to turn the shield into a self-heal pls. owo
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Actually, here's the fix for flex: make it knock down foes (internal cd 4s). Magically all of its energy issues go away.
  • Learned that Impressive Physique actually takes 1.4s to double tick, not 1s.

    I understand that Impressive Physique is supposed to be an AoE burst heal. A very similar power is actually Vala’s Light. Take a look at their base values:

    Impressive Physique
    Energy Cost after 1.4 seconds: 75 Energy
    Energy Cost per second: 53.57 Energy
    Energy Cost per second in 1.5s: 50 Energy

    Healing after 1.4 seconds: +722 Health Points
    Burst HPS: 515.71 HPS
    Burst HPS in 1.5s: 481.33 HPS

    Vala’s Light
    Energy Cost after 1.5 seconds: 92 Energy
    Energy Cost per second: 61.33 Energy

    Healing after 1.5 seconds: +632 Health Points
    Burst HPS: 421.33 HPS

    “Oh, BK! Look at that! It heals more in an AoE as burst and it’s cheaper on energy!”

    It’s pretty good that Impressive Physique has 14% more healing and is 18% cheaper on energy compared to Vala’s Light. These are its advantages over Vala’s Light. Though, look at what Vala’s Light advantages are:

    Vala’s Light can target any player within 50ft and 4 others 25ft from that player.
    Impressive Physique reaches the closest 5 players within 20ft of yourself.
    This basically makes it difficult to use on the exact players that you want to use it on. It also makes it not good for healing tanks at cosmics.

    Vala’s Light has a 3 second cooldown.
    Impressive Physique has a 6 second cooldown.
    Double the cooldown for 14% more effectiveness. If this was an advantage for Vala’s Light, nobody would get it.

    Vala’s Light can target yourself.
    Impressive Physique cannot target yourself.

    Vala’s Light can be used with an energy minimum of 23.
    Impressive Physique can be used with an energy minimum of 45.

    Vala’s Light requires you to wait 0.67 seconds minimum.
    Impressive Physique requires you to wait 1 second minimum.

    Vala’s Light is a charge power that has a charge indicator and automatically casts when fully charged and you can easily queue powers to use after it.
    Impressive Physique requires you to precisely maintain the power for 1.4s to use optimally.

    Vala’s Light can utilize charge speed bonuses to dramatically increase HPS.
    Impressive Physique is a maintain so cannot do the same.

    Ugh... I hate it. This power is terrible.
    Actually, here's the fix for flex: make it knock down foes (internal cd 4s). Magically all of its energy issues go away.
    You could add knock to it for energy gain and suddenly it would be a working power on Strength stacking DPS builds, but it would still be a crappy power.

    The shield is so bad. It ramps slowly, so real difficulty mobs will rip through it, and even if you invest all your time in ramping up the shield, it lasts for 1 second. That duration makes it so that the shield is only supposed to be a protective measure while maintaining. But really, it doesn't do that well because you are forced to be vulnerable for 1 second for activation. I would recommend to make the shield apply more like Mindful Reinforcement, where the shield is applied at the start of cast instead of after cast, and make the power not block cancelable.

    Make the power interesting or something and useful beyond healing if you want to be so stubborn about the cooldown. Make it apply Reckless to allies that are affected by the power or something.

    "But BK, that would make War Cry irrelevant!"

    Ugh then make War Cry good too. Nobody wants more stupid marginally beneficial things like Jinx or Inspiration. Stop making War Cry into something like that.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    *snip*

    I'm sorry, but can't help but assume "I want to like this power. But it sucks, so I should convince others not to take this power!"-thing going on here. Only hope here is to see if Kaiz changes it with our suggestions before it reaches Live. Given she is actually considering suggestions from ranty peeps.
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  • behemothking#9246 behemothking Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    *snip*

    I'm sorry, but can't help but assume "I want to like this power. But it sucks, so I should convince others not to take this power!"-thing going on here. Only hope here is to see if Kaiz changes it with our suggestions before it reaches Live. Given she is actually considering suggestions from ranty peeps.

    If I wanted to see the world burn, I wouldn't write long posts. I want it to be a good power because it was, for once, something I was excited for. Part of getting the dev to listen to changes is convincing them that something needs changes. A good way to do that is giving reasons why something needs changes and then supporting those reasons with evidence. The evidence here ends up being a long list of how it is underpowered.

    Also it's not like I'm pulling reasons out of my butt. The reasons make sense instead of just being random wild claims. -n-
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