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Which Powerset Revision do you think was the Worst? Why?

lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,511 Arc User
Thread Title

updoot:
https://www.strawpoll.me/17911981

This should allow for multiple votes​​
Post edited by lezard21 on

Which Powerset Revision do you think was the Worst? Why? 32 votes

Fire
21%
aesicabluhmannbkxsjonesing4pwestolemynameultrashocmagpieuk2014 7 votes
Electricity
0%
Power Armor
9%
pantagruel01gentlegiantvexxtheglasskitten 3 votes
Munition
31%
draognealford1985morigosabaelogventureneedsmoardakkalezard21chaosdrgnz43kamokamiph0toncann0njebidiahbeetus#4643 10 votes
Laser Sword
12%
aiqafusionax77soulforgeravianos 4 votes
Telekinesis
9%
spordeliathewinxfairymelphyx2 3 votes
Unarmed
0%
Single Blade
9%
themightyzenithnacito#6758scildtruma 3 votes
Bestial Supernatural
6%
spinnytopmarkhawkman 2 votes
Arcane Sorcery
0%
«1

Comments

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    Cause it didn't make the set really more fun or interesting. Every time I make a bestial toon it always bores me away cause I'm just doing a bunch of single target attacks, or spamming my one aoe since it doesn't have any interesting aoes either. Just doesn't have anything going on except for some self-healing.​​
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Bestial Supernatural
    As an aside I'm not really a huge fan of the single blade revamp either as the only thing that really changed about it was Tornado Slash. Otherwise a SB build basically has the same things in it, just with different visuals on a few cloned powers.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    The power armor set remains clunky to use, hard to use with any other set, and overpowered.
  • bringmeaslabbringmeaslab Posts: 169 Arc User
    This is really subjective, but the one I've liked the least was prly Darkness, just b/c of Devoid falling off.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,512 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Fire
    Fire, by a large margin.
    • Weird arbitrary range restriction of 50 feet vs the normal 100 of other ranged sets, all with no notable benefit for giving up that extra range.
    • Too many different powers required to make it do what other sets do with less. Not everybody wants their character to be nothing but fire powers, but if you want incinerate as your single target, you need too many other things. Too bad, because Incinerate looks cool and I'd like to be able to use it.
    • Mandatory Flashfire to make pyre patches do what they should do for fire innately. What even~
    • Forms that scale with Recovery. Gross, especially the support form.

    Runner up #1 would probably be Power Armor.
    • Still clunky to use even after its revamp
    • Absolutely no attention was given to its non-toggled abilities, when this should've been an alternate and valid path for building power armor type characters
    • Overdrive was rendered basically useless for non-PA characters or even PA's non-toggled abilities, yet other EUs are perfectly acceptable in cross-framework builds?
    • Overall, it just felt like an incomplete revamp and could use a second pass.
    • Note that, if it ever did get a second pass, singular variants of certain powers (Rocket Barrage, Concussor Beam, Eye Beam, Hand Cannon especially) would be ideal. As would a revamp to make Overdrive work properly with non-toggled PA powers too.

    And finally, Runner up #2 goes to Munitions.
    • Its cone aoe attacks are blatantly inferior, hitting only 3 targets instead of 5 unless you pay advantage points to bump them up to 5. Why weren't these just made to be in line with other cone attacks?
    • No major aoe/single target T3 abilities for single pistol users
    • Assault Rifle and Two Gun Mojo try to be too different from one another, but in doing so, it results in Assault Rifle being flat out inferior in most cases.
    • Two Gun Mojo's animation looks incredibly douchey, but that's not the fault of the revamp. :)

    Finally, I wanted to say that while I like Laser Sword overall, I feel like it's missing a 360 degree PBAoE maintain attack similar to Eye of the Storm, Sword Cyclone, Ego Blade Frenzy, etc. Finally, its blow-the-wad-of-stacks single target attack (Plasma Cutter) is kind of lame.

    Sorcery is fantastic, Electricity is good, Unarmed is...well not my favorite, but I like that it steps outside the blow-5-stacks-of-whatever cookie cutter BS that infests so many other melee sets in this game.
    Post edited by aesica on
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  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 714 Arc User
    Fire
    Fire, the form is absolutely useless garbage, scaling off an absolutely useless spec tree, scaling off an absolutely useless stat. Then there's so much fodder in the rotation, that it's clunky. /AND/ it has that AWFUL dot from the passive that constantly causes CC issues. That should have been a 0 point advant on the passive.
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  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,672 Arc User
    Munition
    For me, I think it was munitions. I mean, I haven't seen any tank use Munitions' dodge mechanic.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    For me, I think it was munitions. I mean, I haven't seen any tank use Munitions' dodge mechanic.

    what dodge mechanic?​​
  • gentlegiantvexxgentlegiantvexx Posts: 308 Community Moderator
    edited April 2019
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    For me, I think it was munitions. I mean, I haven't seen any tank use Munitions' dodge mechanic.

    what dodge mechanic?​​

    Composure in terms of DPS, Lightning reflexes for tank itself, Concentration + Lead Tempest's Tread Softly, Thundering kicks's Lotus blossom + Bullet Ballet is another.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Laser Sword
    I'm actually still loving Power Armour after the change, never had an issue with the energy managment, and I still love my PA DPS A lot, but I agree it became incredible clunky, especially with the AD+AO debuff onion-13.gif

    Laser Sword
    I have SO MANY issues with this revamp that made highly dislike this powerframe to the point I won't mind deleting my LS DPS and Tank characters
    1. Ridiculous amount of energy management
    2. Form (Particle Accelerator) with INT while the Energy Unlock (Unified Theory) scales with END. 2 ENERGY STATS, and if you don't want to use INT as secondary neither primary you have to use another form (mostly DEX and Form of the Tempest)
    3. Particle Smash, whats the point of this power anymore?
    4. Really limited move pool
    5. Cybernetic Tether, another chain reskin, but it's TECH
    6. Luminescent Slash, Devs really made this power the only focus of the entire powerframe.
      It feels like Massacre except the energy managment is worse
    7. Oh boy... Plasma Cutter... Plasma Cutter is Garbage now, This power didn't just die, it was murdered.
      The old Plasma Burn rupture mechanic was better, I don't care if you don't like rupture mechanics, it was better than this trash.
      Instead of being a good DPS choice as counterpart of Luminescent Slash, it became inferior. The explosion is not good mechanic and it has more cons than pros. I used to like this power and now I hate it, it need buff

      I wanted to stay in theme, I didn't want to use Form of the Tempest neither CHEESE it with Circle of Arcane Power, and I Definetly don't want to use a power that gives me energy but debuffs my DPS and healing (Power Conversion)
      Energy management in CO sucks, especially while leveling.
      Laser Sword made it an overkill

    and no, just because it's considered one of the highest Melee DPS, doesn't mean I have to like it at its current state

    Fire (and to a point Electricity on how boring the changes were)
    1. Boring Revamp
    2. Fiery Will, Form scales with REC, just EWWW
    3. Meteor Blaze is a Garbage Ultimate #GiveMeteorBlazeOverpoweredDebuff
    4. Nova Flare is extremely gimmicky with limited range
    5. Warmth is still bugged with the Assist on attack targeting mechanic
    6. While I do like Incinerate as a new addition, I always wanted to see more love to Fireball

    3.Munition
    1. It was boring, it sure fixed some things but broke others
    2. No Single Pistol powers, despite so many NPCs use them
    3. Assault Rifle+ Uncompromising ADV, having to get this adv for the best damage but having to keep up Furious stacks ON A 100 FOOT POWER. What's the point of this?
    4. Too many Grenades, not enough of anything else
    5. The Removal of Bullet Beatdown from the Specialist AT, a Deadpool clkone AT that has FORM OF THE TEMPEST to boost this 100% Melee power... and instead Gunslighter, an 100% RANGE DPS with a form that boost range damage got it... why?
    6. And speaking of Bullet Beatdown, no enough melee-Munition choices, if you want to make a Bullet Beatdown you go with Form of the Tempest and pick non-munition melee AoEs.
    ​​
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    Laser Sword
    The one I think came out the worse was the one I voted for. Simply because it is just not fun to play as is really.

    Second, by a close margin even, would be munitions. They could have done far better. Fire also was not that great. Power Armor was meh at best, same with bestial. Overall, everyone has already pointed out the ways. So, I will not list my reasons.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Bestial Supernatural
    Composure in terms of DPS, Lightning reflexes for tank itself, Concentration + Lead Tempest's Tread Softly, Thundering kicks's Lotus blossom + Bullet Ballet is another.

    But he said "I haven't seen any tank use Munitions' dodge mechanic."
    Composure is a dps passive, so a tank wouldn't be using it. LR and Thundering Kicks aren't Munitions powers, and certainly didn't appear with the Munitions update. So, none of those could be what he meant.

    The only thing that qualifies is Lead Tempest's dodge advantage and... is that even new?

    Maybe there are no tanks using munitions' dodge mechanic because it doesn't actually have one o3o​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The only thing that qualifies is Lead Tempest's dodge advantage and... is that even new?

    Maybe there are no tanks using munitions' dodge mechanic because it doesn't actually have one o3o​​
    People don't use lead tempest's dodge advantages on tanks because lead tempest doesn't have Challenge.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,569 Arc User
    Telepathy is not on the list and it has been tinkered with, to no real good end.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Telepathy is not on the list and it has been tinkered with, to no real good end.
    It hasn't really had an actual powerset revision, just certain powers got adjusted.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The only thing that qualifies is Lead Tempest's dodge advantage and... is that even new?

    Maybe there are no tanks using munitions' dodge mechanic because it doesn't actually have one o3o
    People don't use lead tempest's dodge advantages on tanks because lead tempest doesn't have Challenge.

    I imagine they also don't use it because tanks don't need it. It seems like something more suited to dps using dodge passives.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I imagine they also don't use it because tanks don't need it. It seems like something more suited to dps using dodge passives.​​
    It would need to increase your durability by 20% to make up for the loss of damage output. It doesn't.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I imagine they also don't use it because tanks don't need it. It seems like something more suited to dps using dodge passives.
    It would need to increase your durability by 20% to make up for the loss of damage output. It doesn't.

    So then like I said, tanks wouldn't use it. So then, what is the Munitions dodge mechanic that tanks were supposed to use? .-.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So then like I said, tanks wouldn't use it. So then, what is the Munitions dodge mechanic that tanks were supposed to use? .-.​​
    Well, it wouldn't increase it by 20% for a dps. It would for a lightning reflexes dodge tank (most dodge bonuses are only valuable to dodge tanks).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Bestial Supernatural
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So then like I said, tanks wouldn't use it. So then, what is the Munitions dodge mechanic that tanks were supposed to use? .-.
    Well, it wouldn't increase it by 20% for a dps. It would for a lightning reflexes dodge tank (most dodge bonuses are only valuable to dodge tanks).

    Yeah but, what's this new Munitions dodge mechanic for tanks? I don't remember Munitions getting any new dodge stuff other than the dps passive. If there's something I don't know about I wanna know about it.​​
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    Power Armor
    I didn’t even realize power armor had a proper revision so I have to go with that one.

    I know it got a proper debuff and they altered how many times the toggles were hitting per second. Did they change/add anything else?
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  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    Munition
    lezard21 wrote: »
    To me the Munition change was like getting a bunch of fruits, tossing them inside a blender, and getting those same fruits back instead of the delicious smoothy I wanted.

    A lot of changes were made and the best option Munition still has is 2GM with the dumb advantage that turns a ranged set into melee.

    The Furious mechanic implemented to give AR some viability requires you to take a lot of extra powers to make it work and at the end of the day it still does less damage than 2GM.

    The revision tried to introduce Melee Munitions as a thing but only added 2 powers to it, one a combo attack the other an attack that only works well below 30%, neither of them benefit from the Furious mechanic, and the form that was introduced alongside it buffs RANGED damage primarily.

    A lot of these powers (Sniper, 2GM and I think there was one more?) do not work with a lot of specs since the game can't decide wether they are Single Target attacks or AoE despite not taking the advantage.

    There are a lot of powers that are very underwhelming (example Rocket, which has a charge AND a cooldown for less damage than a lot of the other mantains in the set) and a lot of powers that are just different degrees of splash damage in a line/cone/360 that even if they look cool you'll probably be hard pressed to take since you already wasted 2-3 slots to make the Furious mechanic work.

    Outside of Grenades, Munition has zero synergy with all other powersets since it's the only one currently that does piercing damage. e: Someone pointed out to me that Archery does Piercing damage. Gee, I wonder how could I have forgotten that :v

    So all in all, a lot was changed but none of those changes had any impact on the Munitions meta.​​

    Yeah what he said
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    Munition
    I didn’t even realize power armor had a proper revision so I have to go with that one.

    I know it got a proper debuff and they altered how many times the toggles were hitting per second. Did they change/add anything else?

    A few powers were added, like Binding Shot, Rocket Punch, Hand Cannon, Dual Wrist Rockets, Chest Laser.

    They moved a lot of the slot powers like Chest Beam out of the slots and into standalone powers.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Bestial Supernatural
    I didn’t even realize power armor had a proper revision so I have to go with that one.

    I know it got a proper debuff and they altered how many times the toggles were hitting per second. Did they change/add anything else?

    Thing is, Power Armor was already in a really good place before they even touched it. When it comes to debuffs I believe it actually had multiple, one from Chest Beam and one from Minigun, and that was shrunk down to 1 debuff. The majority of the changes to PA were done to defeat exploits that were produce outrageous dps gains. They could have gone in the other direction, leaving the exploits and just nerfing the hell out of PA's damage... kinda glad they didn't go that way honestly cause I feel like PA would suck now if they did. Sure, some people might have liked those exploits, but I don't think they're worth burying a powerset.

    A concern I had at the time was that we were losing some functionality from Tactical Missiles, both for dps via Avenger Master, and for burst damage. But then we got Hand Cannon ( a very cool person must have made the suggestion that led to that power owo ) which solved the burst issue, and PA remains a dominant dps build so there was no problems there. And for "shooting a billion missiles per second" builds that used to use Tactical Missiles with Avenger Master we got the amazingly named Dual Wrist Rocket Barrage ( again, whoever thought up that name is probably the coolest person you could ever meet OwO ).

    Folks rightly mention that the non-toggle part of PA seems a bit awkward, but there are still some strong and useful powers in there. Chest Beam can be used to make a strong dpser, and it applies its own debuff, and is an aoe, and is a strong knock all without advantages - its like Force Cascade at 50 range basically. It's actually a case of too much in one power if you think about it, but I'm guessing they just didn't have the time or assets to add more non-toggle powers at the time so they left those as-is.

    One thing to keep in mind is that PA still doesn't have its own form, so it's entirely possible that PA didn't even get a real review, and was just got a big ol' bug fix session that happened to add a power or two.​​
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Fire
    I'm saying Fire simply because they put TWO idiotic toggle forms in that scale off of REC. One would have been insult enough, but two??? That's just plain mean. Smoldering is particularly rude as it requires you to do damage to increase your healing, while giving no benefit whatsoever over Compassion. Fiery Will might be okay if they gave REC any decent specs to make up for the fact that no sets have any real use for stacked REC. AND, Thermal Reverb stacks primarily off END, and only secondarily on REC. That's even more rude.
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  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,408 Arc User
    Fire
    • A powerset that was previously identifiable by its commanding area-control is now reduced to being generic essentially. Actually, worse than generic since it's now a self-rooting ranged set with 50-ft attacks.
    • The limit of 1 fire patch means that now a lot of old abilities that previously were useful in an ancilary sense for being able to generate another one while also doing damage... are now just entirely eclipsed by flashfire because it's just the fastest and cheapest way to get a patch exactly where you need it. This is also the reason as to why nobody ever takes Meteor Blaze, because one of its main features is... A feature that you can get from a much shorter-cooldown ability.
    • Its method by which it applies and maintains its defense debuff is still the clunkiest thing ever. You're forced to take a long-cooldown pet or a hold of some sort (very suboptimal DPS/recharge economy) to apply the effect and then need to concern yourself with refreshing it.
    • Elec can just pour everything into END to scale everything: its toggle, energy unlock... Meanwhile Fire's busy trying to split its gimmicks between both REC and END because uhhhhhh I guess it has to be a unique flower now, now doesn't it? Considering Fire is busy hamstringing itself with 8 different varieties of cooldown perhaps INT would've made more sense as a stat to focus on. Or maybe just full-on REC to take advantage of a very specific 'Second Wind' spec choice. If only Thermal Reverb's REC scaling it reportedly has wasn't so garbage.
    • Fire has support gimmicks but heck if anyone's going to use it. A healing toggle that scales exclusively with the wrong stat, a burst heal that already existed before the full rehaul was done (and is pretty good admittedly) and then nova flare, the weird click heal with a cooldown that has a mysteriously short range.
    • They still didn't solve some of the biggest issues with the set (something I'd also criticize Ice for, but at least it's useable to a degree). A big one is Fire Strike, which is still an unbelievably awkward move since it doesn't benefit from about 90% of the specs that make blast abilities worth using, just because it isn't a charge attack. Also the fact it's a tap makes it eat through energy way faster than it has any right to. A lot of what I was talking about above also explain why abilities such as Heat Wave and Pyre aren't used: because they're eclipsed by abilities that do their job better (Flame Prison is a bigger hold that has the same advantage), or just way faster (Firesnake is undisputedly the best option for defense debuff since you aren't stuck maintaining a crappy move for 2 seconds; Flashfire again is still the god of making a fire patch ASAP.)
    • The set just doesn't feel good to use, even when using its optimal pieces like Incinerate. Why does this maintain take like an extra half-second to get going compared to, like, TGM or Lightning Arc? The attack rotation of just basic fire DPS is already complicated enough, I could do without having to feel like I'm devoting my mobility and survival to holding my sweaty palms up to my foes to make them a bit muggy.
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Laser Sword
    OOF this thread really awakened my hate for Laser Sword powerframe

    also dishonourable mentions
    1. Single Blade: Boring, didn't add anything new for more options (beyond 2-3 new powers), I love SB but the revamp made me shrug it off... oh yeah that happened I guess
      Reaper's Caress got Fiery Blade ADV, now if we could have more elemental synergy options with Melee-range that would be neat...
    2. Bestial Supernatural Boring and I realized I'm having more fun playing with my Bestial TANK rather than my Bestial DPS which I regret making. The DPS side of this powerframe is not fun for me imslow.gif

      The most dissapointing thing so far is that we got that Gimmicky trash Ultimate, Feral Rage.
      Really not a fan of Passive Ultimates which DEVS seem to want to push
      Where is my OVER-THE-TOP animated Reap and Tear Big dink damage bestial ultimate? im sticking with Unleashed rage and Devastating Strike tiger-41.gif
    3. Heavy Weapons: Yeah not really a 100% revamp, but it was one of the first revisits we got Can this powerframe get a second and REAL revamp please? Give it more power variety (spin attack) buff Skullcrusher to NOT be a Joke and give it OWN damn thematic EU that doesn't rely on the clinging flames gimmick? Not all players like the Fire aspects of this
      The powerframe is slugish and clunky, which you would say "Thats the point, you swing a heavy weapon". yeah but WHAT IF you want to make DEXtrous HW user? db3mnpk-6781eb7a-66e4-4e50-aeed-9eb4255763b2.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzI2NGE3ZjA5LTYxNzQtNDNhZi05YTNkLWNkZDdkNzUyZmE0NlwvZGIzbW5way02NzgxZWI3YS02NmU0LTRlNTAtYWVlZC05ZWI0MjU1NzYzYjIucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.PKPFvzkwSMF1PNzU5qzSRjY18xZFFneIPfXU3y2QYcU

      and get the framework an HW LEGIT ultimate that is NOT an underwhelming Guitar-buffing only power
    4. Electricity: Boring but WAY BETTER than the dumpster Fire called... Fire revamp! More elemental synergy would be nice
      I will take Electric Toggle (Power Source) which scales with END (along with the EU) anytime over the ugly Fire toggles (Fiery Will and Smoldering) which scale with REC

    also not a fan of FIRE being stuck in 50feet range
    Sidenote: for some reason everything gets Clinging Flames and synergy with Fire... while fire itself is underwelming imslow.gif

    aesica wrote: »
    Runner up #1 would probably be Power Armor.
    • Absolutely no attention was given to its non-toggled abilities, when this should've been an alternate and valid path for building power armor type characters
    THANK YOU! I completely forgot about the non-toggled PA powers... and so did the DEVs
    I hate how much unloved those powers were left behind
    Which is shame because I really love Power Gauntlet and Tactical Missiles, but they are no use for DPS beyond theme!
    also Rocket Punch whole gimmick got shafted since it was lost into obscurity

    At least I use chest beam on my Pulse Beam Rifle DPS, it has uses outside the framework :B
    bluhman wrote: »
    [*] Elec can just pour everything into END to scale everything: its toggle, energy unlock... Meanwhile Fire's busy trying to split its gimmicks between both REC and END because uhhhhhh I guess it has to be a unique flower now, now doesn't it? Considering Fire is busy hamstringing itself with 8 different varieties of cooldown perhaps INT would've made more sense as a stat to focus on. Or maybe just full-on REC to take advantage of a very specific 'Second Wind' spec choice. If only Thermal Reverb's REC scaling it reportedly has wasn't so garbage.
    SPOT ON, i couldn't descibe it better​​
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    Fire
    bluhman wrote: »
    • A powerset that was previously identifiable by its commanding area-control is now reduced to being generic essentially. Actually, worse than generic since it's now a self-rooting ranged set with 50-ft attacks.
    • The limit of 1 fire patch means that now a lot of old abilities that previously were useful in an ancilary sense for being able to generate another one while also doing damage... are now just entirely eclipsed by flashfire because it's just the fastest and cheapest way to get a patch exactly where you need it. This is also the reason as to why nobody ever takes Meteor Blaze, because one of its main features is... A feature that you can get from a much shorter-cooldown ability.
    • Its method by which it applies and maintains its defense debuff is still the clunkiest thing ever. You're forced to take a long-cooldown pet or a hold of some sort (very suboptimal DPS/recharge economy) to apply the effect and then need to concern yourself with refreshing it.
    • Elec can just pour everything into END to scale everything: its toggle, energy unlock... Meanwhile Fire's busy trying to split its gimmicks between both REC and END because uhhhhhh I guess it has to be a unique flower now, now doesn't it? Considering Fire is busy hamstringing itself with 8 different varieties of cooldown perhaps INT would've made more sense as a stat to focus on. Or maybe just full-on REC to take advantage of a very specific 'Second Wind' spec choice. If only Thermal Reverb's REC scaling it reportedly has wasn't so garbage.
    • Fire has support gimmicks but heck if anyone's going to use it. A healing toggle that scales exclusively with the wrong stat, a burst heal that already existed before the full rehaul was done (and is pretty good admittedly) and then nova flare, the weird click heal with a cooldown that has a mysteriously short range.
    • They still didn't solve some of the biggest issues with the set (something I'd also criticize Ice for, but at least it's useable to a degree). A big one is Fire Strike, which is still an unbelievably awkward move since it doesn't benefit from about 90% of the specs that make blast abilities worth using, just because it isn't a charge attack. Also the fact it's a tap makes it eat through energy way faster than it has any right to. A lot of what I was talking about above also explain why abilities such as Heat Wave and Pyre aren't used: because they're eclipsed by abilities that do their job better (Flame Prison is a bigger hold that has the same advantage), or just way faster (Firesnake is undisputedly the best option for defense debuff since you aren't stuck maintaining a crappy move for 2 seconds; Flashfire again is still the god of making a fire patch ASAP.)
    • The set just doesn't feel good to use, even when using its optimal pieces like Incinerate. Why does this maintain take like an extra half-second to get going compared to, like, TGM or Lightning Arc? The attack rotation of just basic fire DPS is already complicated enough, I could do without having to feel like I'm devoting my mobility and survival to holding my sweaty palms up to my foes to make them a bit muggy.

    This.
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    Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    Laser Sword
    ...Pathetic
    lezard21 wrote: »
    Make sure to spread those polls like Wildfire in the ingame chats, we need more info from players who don't use forums​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life but I'm running out of unique FF builds!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    It would need to increase your durability by 20% to make up for the loss of damage output. It doesn't.

    Wait, I just realized this has never been a standard for anything. There's no reason it needs to be a 1:1 trade of durability for damage output. Durability is weighted differently than damage in terms of value, generally higher.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It would need to increase your durability by 20% to make up for the loss of damage output. It doesn't.

    Wait, I just realized this has never been a standard for anything. There's no reason it needs to be a 1:1 trade of durability for damage output. Durability is weighted differently than damage in terms of value, generally higher.​​
    Durability is usually weighted lower, actually. If you're a dps in CO and fighting low rank stuff that you might want to use AoEs on, your primary strategy is almost always 'make them run out of hp before I run out of hp', possibly with consumables as extra hp. If rank 2 means 'I run out of hp in 11s, they run out of hp in 12s', it's not sufficient and you lose the fight. In that case, an extra rank means they run out of hp in 10s (and I win), an advantage that makes you 20% tougher means I don't run out of hp until 13.1s is past (and I win).

    Given that either way I win, I'd likely rather win in 10s than 12s, but at least I win both fights. If the advantage only makes me last 12s, I don't even win.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It would need to increase your durability by 20% to make up for the loss of damage output. It doesn't.

    Wait, I just realized this has never been a standard for anything. There's no reason it needs to be a 1:1 trade of durability for damage output. Durability is weighted differently than damage in terms of value, generally higher.
    Durability is usually weighted lower, actually. If you're a dps in CO and fighting low rank stuff that you might want to use AoEs on, your primary strategy is almost always 'make them run out of hp before I run out of hp', possibly with consumables as extra hp. If rank 2 means 'I run out of hp in 11s, they run out of hp in 12s', it's not sufficient and you lose the fight. In that case, an extra rank means they run out of hp in 10s (and I win), an advantage that makes you 20% tougher means I don't run out of hp until 13.1s is past (and I win).

    Given that either way I win, I'd likely rather win in 10s than 12s, but at least I win both fights. If the advantage only makes me last 12s, I don't even win.

    Defense is generally weighted higher because it's a passive benefit and because you can mitigate damage from more targets than you can hit simultaneously.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    Power Armor
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Defense is generally weighted higher because it's a passive benefit and because you can mitigate damage from more targets than you can hit simultaneously.​​
    I see a lot more 700 Dex dps builds than 700 Con dps builds. The thing about defense is, once you have enough, anything beyond that is wasted, while you can always win faster, so there's no similar cap on offense.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    I see a lot more 700 Dex dps builds than 700 Con dps builds.

    That doesn't determine how the stats are weighted.​​
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    Why worry about defense and dying outside of cosmics and TA? It’s almost impossible to.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 75 Arc User
    Single Blade
    I found single blade to be a pain getting to 40. I would start one and then delete it. Took me a long while to lvl one and that was only because I really liked the look of the toon. Very bland IMHO.
    My lvl 40 champs in random order.

    =Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
    =Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
    =Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
    =By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
    =Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=

  • spinnytop wrote: »
    Defense is generally weighted higher because it's a passive benefit and because you can mitigate damage from more targets than you can hit simultaneously.​​
    I see a lot more 700 Dex dps builds than 700 Con dps builds. The thing about defense is, once you have enough, anything beyond that is wasted, while you can always win faster, so there's no similar cap on offense.

    I've always felt the opposite, actually. The amount of defense you need varies depending on player skill, which varies from player to player and even moment to moment. Meanwhile, a single death more than erases the benefits of higher damage. And for dps characters (at least any that are actually good at dps), it's easier to improve defensive capability than offensive capability.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Bestial Supernatural
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Why worry about defense and dying outside of cosmics and TA? It’s almost impossible to.

    Yes, like in the Q-Warzone and STE :^)​​
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    Munition
    I am surprised to see Fire so high up there. I thought the set prior to revamp was far more clunky. I have enjoyed the rotation when I've played it. Same with Laser Sword.

    Both sets, relative to what they were prior to the revamp, were in a much better place afterwards imo.

    Overall, my outlook is that the revamps have been mostly pretty positive.

    So my vote is only for the set that I feel benefited the least from the revamp.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Why worry about defense and dying outside of cosmics and TA? It’s almost impossible to.

    Yes, like in the Q-Warzone and STE :^)​​

    Outside of that...? Should have clarified, outside of endgame this game has fake difficulty, and endgame is not difficult.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    hmm.. how do you define "fake difficulty"?
    ChampsWiki
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    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    Bestial Supernatural
    right, but how does he apply that to CO?
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,032 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Power Armor
    hmm.. how do you define "fake difficulty"?
    My experience with the term is that 'fake difficulty' is difficulty of a type the person using the phrase does not like, and is a useful indicator that you should ignore everything that person says. I don't mind complaining about things that you find obnoxious, but don't call them fake difficulty. They're real difficulty, just difficulty that you find unfun, and in any case calling them fake difficulty is mostly obscuring what you actually object to. Nothing in that article is actually fake difficulty, they're badly designed difficulty (and in any case the examples don't have much to do with CO).
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    Fire
    Fire. I liked the fact we got a viable healer out of it, but I find the set tedious to play (so much so that the Blazing AT I started when the power set came out is still level 30... I just look at it and think... No.)
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,055 Arc User

    hmm.. how do you define "fake difficulty"?
    My experience with the term is that 'fake difficulty' is difficulty of a type the person using the phrase does not like, and is a useful indicator that you should ignore everything that person says. I don't mind complaining about things that you find obnoxious, but don't call them fake difficulty. They're real difficulty, just difficulty that you find unfun, and in any case calling them fake difficulty is mostly obscuring what you actually object to. Nothing in that article is actually fake difficulty, they're badly designed difficulty (and in any case the examples don't have much to do with CO).

    My wording was a bit off, my apologies. If you think Champions has any difficulty, besides player mistakes(I guess that, if you want to consider, could be fake difficulty) then you would be, in my opinion deluding yourself. CO's leveling provides no challenge, the enemies only use EB or Tier 1 blast, and endgame barring the first encounters for a new players is routine and monotonous with no phases besides Dino and Eido(well, notable. Kiga technically has one but uh...eh. Ape is about the same.) So yes, this depth is not warranted besides maybe those fights for a hypothetical difficulty that doesn't exist. Hm, yknow what? Back to calling it fake difficulty :smile:
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
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