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Can we normalize stats, forms, and energy unlocks already?

aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
edited March 2019 in Suggestions Box
Right now, stats seem like they can be divided into 4 categories:
  • Damage stats: Str, Dex, Ego, and Int*
  • Energy stats: End, Rec, and Int*
  • Healing stats: Pre
  • Health stats: Con

* Int is arguably a hybrid energy and damage stat if taken as a PSS due to its specializations.

Yet, in spite of this, we have a janky mess of forms and energy unlocks that key off whatever stat the dart hits for a given set. Not only is that tacky, but it makes some sets better than others and it restricts cross-framework builds more than necessary. So, in attempt to offer a streamlined version that's better for everyone, here's some form and energy unlock suggestions for changes to make this whole mess look more professional and be better for players to work with overall:

Form stat scaling:
  • Fiery Will: Ego or Endurance
  • Smouldering: Presence or Endurance
  • Power source: Ego or Endurance
  • Spellcaster: Presence or Intelligence
  • Shadow Manifestation: Presence or Recovery
  • Form of the [various martial arts]: Dexterity or Recovery
  • Enrage: Strength or Endurance
  • Aspect of the Bestial: Strength or Recovery
  • Mental Precision/Displine: Dexterity or Intelligence
  • Sharp Shooter; Dexterity or Intelligence
  • Particle Accelerator: Dexterity or Intelligence
  • Aspect of the Machine: Dexterity or Intelligence (see "Aspect of the Machine" below

So basically, most forms would have a proper damage/healing stat + an energy stat to choose from, meaning the player could choose between "maximum damage" and "maximum flexibility/easier energy management." I realize an arbitrary decision of "new forms only get 1 stat" came about at some point, but I really think it should be revisited. "One damage stat and one energy stat" seems like it'd be much healthier for the game and building characters overall. In most cases, people will pick the damage stat, but the energy stat would still be there as a nice fallback option.

Next, an overhaul for Aspect of the Machine:
  • Gain a stack each time you critically hit a target (Form of the Tempest, ranged technology edition)
  • Stacks to 8 like normal forms
  • Ranks behave like normal forms
  • Boosts your ranged damage, or your melee damage to a lesesr degree
  • New advantage: [2] Self-Repair Nanites: Heal for a small amount each time you gain a stack.

In light of the recent nerfs to Compassion, I think it needs a quick revisit as well:
  • Stacks each time you heal a target with a non-passive healing effect or each time you apply an Enchantment to a target.

Also, a new form to fill the currently-open Presence + melee niche: Aspect of the Reaver:
  • Gain a stack each time you inflict/refresh/consume a wound, curse, or mental state on the target
  • Melee bonus, ranged lesser bonus
  • Scales with Presence or Recovery

And finally, energy unlocks. While these are mostly standardized now, I have to ask this: I can understand the state of Hunter's Instinct and Telepathic Reverberation (both are specialized to work exclusively with lackluster sets) but Relentless is over the top. Being able to stack Dexterity to the moon and have it benefit both your MA form of choice + itself is probably why martial arts is so popular. I know people who use it aren't going to like me saying this, but If the devs don't want people stacking only damage stats, and only a single stat at that, they should probably revisit Steadfast. Maybe something like this:

Steadfast
  • Gain energy every 3 seconds over 6 seconds every time you critically hit with a martial arts power or dodge an attack.
  • Scales with your Recovery, or Endurance to a lesser degree

Although frankly, I think Steadfast is a bit redundant at this point since Relentless/Chi cover all the current bases.

So yeah, that's that. As nice as I think it would be to have this be a thing, it's probably going to just end up in the round file, so yeah. I had to get it out of my head, though.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).

Comments

  • pjz99pjz99 Posts: 143 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    Form stat scaling:
    • Fiery Will: Ego or Endurance
    • Smouldering: Presence or Endurance
    I agree with you on these, I'd rather all forms had two choices for statting. Especially for ATs that have no choice of what form they get to run, at least they'd have more choice of how to customize their stat mods.
    [...]
    Also, a new form to fill the currently-open Presence + melee niche: Aspect of the Reaver:
    • Gain a stack each time you inflict/refresh/consume a wound, curse, or mental state on the target
    • Melee bonus, ranged lesser bonus
    • Scales with Presence or Recovery

    Yeah I want this pretty bad, a melee form that scales on Presence. That's a reasonable mechanic, sure.

    Re: Compassion I agree, some other trigger condition besides "You put healing numbers into a guy" would be welcome.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I like Aspect of the Machine the way it is, I'd just like them to fix it so that it works properly when ranked up, thassal.

    I like the idea of a Toggle Form that you have to sink Advantage Points into, and as it's a good way of making melee/ranged hybrids effective I'd like to see the devs sort it promptly. I have a revised Automaton build I'd like them to do, too...

    (oh, and doesn't it scale on EGO/STR)?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Honestly, I'd be tempted to normalize so all forms do the same thing:
    • An all damage bonus based on superstats
    • A melee damage bonus based on strength
    • A ranged damage bonus based on ego
    • A healing bonus based on presence
    • A cc strength bonus (based on presence, unless there's some further stat rebalance)
    • An energy bonus based on Rec and End
    Likewise, all energy unlocks are based on Rec and End.

    Con, Dex, Int wind up with no direct effects. Con is probably okay based on its inherent effect. Dex has inherent effects of crit chance, which might be okay or might need tweaks. Int has inherent effects of cost and cooldown reduction, which would probably need boosts or an additional effect as cd reduction is very weak and cost reduction is placed in heavy DR based on cost reduction gear even without any Int.
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I like the idea of melee forms scaling on strength an ranged forms scaling on ego.

    Forms that scale on dexterity feel superior because not only does your form stat increase your form damage, it also greatly increases your critical strike chance.

    If melee forms scaled on strength and ranged forms scaled on ego, the player would have to decide if they wanted to add in dexterity for extra crit and also how much they deemed valuable at the sacrifice of a form stat. Most high end builds currently just use a dex form and lay it all into dex so they don’t have to worry about their other stats very much. Dex coves their damage and their crit.
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  • pjz99pjz99 Posts: 143 Arc User
    Honestly, I'd be tempted to normalize so all forms do the same thing:
    • An all damage bonus based on superstats
    • A melee damage bonus based on strength
    • A ranged damage bonus based on ego
    • A healing bonus based on presence
    • A cc strength bonus (based on presence, unless there's some further stat rebalance)
    • An energy bonus based on Rec and End
    Likewise, all energy unlocks are based on Rec and End.

    this is the exact opposite of what OP is asking for
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    pjz99 wrote: »
    this is the exact opposite of what OP is asking for
    It's not required to agree with a suggestion to post in a thread...
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Oh look, more of that "I always want to use the same thing and never have to deviate" mentality, but cleverly disguised under the guise of "normalization". Here's a better idea: Nerf Dex, Presence, Strength and Ego, and the related specs that make them so powerful. Then you won't feel the need to stick to them like glue and you can up your build diversity.

    aesica wrote: »
    Yet, in spite of this, we have a janky mess of forms and energy unlocks that key off whatever stat the dart hits for a given set. Not only is that tacky, but it makes some sets better than others and it restricts cross-framework builds more than necessary.

    ^ complete hogwash btw. Stacking a given attribute doesn't restrict cross-framework builds at all and many of the new forms actually promote cross-framework building. Yes yes, not as much as those old-fashioned "throw anything together" forms, but those are on their way out for a reason.​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    Honestly, I'd be tempted to normalize so all forms do the same thing:
    • An all damage bonus based on superstats
    • A melee damage bonus based on strength
    • A ranged damage bonus based on ego
    • A healing bonus based on presence
    • A cc strength bonus (based on presence, unless there's some further stat rebalance)
    • An energy bonus based on Rec and End
    Likewise, all energy unlocks are based on Rec and End.

    Con, Dex, Int wind up with no direct effects. Con is probably okay based on its inherent effect. Dex has inherent effects of crit chance, which might be okay or might need tweaks. Int has inherent effects of cost and cooldown reduction, which would probably need boosts or an additional effect as cd reduction is very weak and cost reduction is placed in heavy DR based on cost reduction gear even without any Int.
    I actually thought about something like that initially, however by forcing Str or Ego onto every damage build, you're pretty much turning stat planning into something people will math out only on the initial release week as they search for the optimal stat setup. Since all forms and EUs would use the same stats, everyone would just copy the optimal setup that was figured out in the beginning. About the only thing I like about forms right now is that they encourage you to use different stats--Int, Dex, Ego, Int, or more recently, Pre.

    Otherwise, everybody's stats would look the same.

    Disclaimer: Your version would actually be pretty okay if a major stat overhaul were to happen, but that's obviously not realistic given the state of the game's code and the lack of developers allocated to it.
    I like Aspect of the Machine the way it is, I'd just like them to fix it so that it works properly when ranked up, thassal.

    I like the idea of a Toggle Form that you have to sink Advantage Points into, and as it's a good way of making melee/ranged hybrids effective I'd like to see the devs sort it promptly. I have a revised Automaton build I'd like them to do, too...

    (oh, and doesn't it scale on EGO/STR)?
    Honestly, I initially had AotM as something like this:
    1. Scales with your superstats
    2. Boosts ranged/melee equally, using a bonus somewhere between the greater and lesser bonus of other forms
    3. Generates energy every 4 seconds while in combat
    4. Requires ranking up for its full effect rather than stacking mechanics

    So basically, a sort of range/melee hybrid form that works well with anything with the tradeoff of being not as good as more specialized forms and requiring ranks.

    Buuuuut I don't think that has any real chance of happening. The devs seem to want stacking forms that land you in either a ranged box or a melee box.

    I chose Int and Dex because they're the most agnostic in terms of favoring ranged or melee, and Int in particular just makes the most sense.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    I actually thought about something like that initially, however by forcing Str or Ego onto every damage build, you're pretty much turning stat planning into something people will math out only on the initial release week as they search for the optimal stat setup.
    That's different from currently how? In any case, whether you force str/ego depends on the magnitude of the bonus relative to other bonuses, my first pass thought was 'all damage bonus = superstats/50, str/ego bonus = stat/100', which means a build with 900 total stat points of which 700 are in a picked stat would be 18% per stack if no strength, 25% with 700 strength.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Oh look, more of that "I always want to use the same thing and never have to deviate" mentality, but cleverly disguised under the guise of "normalization". Here's a better idea: Nerf Dex, Presence, Strength and Ego, and the related specs that make them so powerful. Then you won't feel the need to stick to them like glue and you can up your build diversity.
    It'd probably be easier to buff the ones you didn't list (con doesn't need a form, so that's just Int, End, and Rec). I'd actually be okay with that, since right now, focusing on these, especially Rec, feels really wasteful and bad.

    As for "always wanting to use the same thing," notice that I actually added energy stats as options to many of the forms. "high energy for less damage" (stacking end or rec for the form requirement) vs "tighter energy for good damage" (stacking an offensive stat for the form requirement) are actually interesting choices IMO.
    That's different from currently how? In any case, whether you force str/ego depends on the magnitude of the bonus relative to other bonuses, my first pass thought was 'all damage bonus = superstats/50, str/ego bonus = stat/100', which means a build with 900 total stat points of which 700 are in a picked stat would be 18% per stack if no strength, 25% with 700 strength.
    I still kind of feel like that leaves Dex and Int in the lurch. If going for that level of homogenization (which I'd actually be okay with) it might be better to go all the way and make the scaling entirely superstat-based. Since each stat has a sort of soft cap for its bonuses, that'd actually encourage people to spread their stats out a bit more rather than, "look at me, I'm 700 pounds of muscle but pretty feeble in every other aspect of my being."

    People wouldn't stack one stat stupid-high anymore because they'd no longer feel like they had to.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    I still kind of feel like that leaves Dex and Int in the lurch. If going for that level of homogenization (which I'd actually be okay with) it might be better to go all the way and make the scaling entirely superstat-based.
    Problem is that the inherent effects of Dex are better than the inherent effects of Str or Ego, so if you make them all equal, people just go Dex.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    As for "always wanting to use the same thing," notice that I actually added energy stats as options to many of the forms. "high energy for less damage" (stacking end or rec for the form requirement) vs "tighter energy for good damage" (stacking an offensive stat for the form requirement) are actually interesting choices IMO.

    Yeah, but you're making this suggestion specifically so you never have to do the former. This is just a disingenuous attempt to get a dps increase. If you really wanted this dynamic, rather than just being able to use better dps/healing attributes with all your forms, you would be suggesting that energy generation across the board needs to be nerfed.​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    aesica wrote: »
    I still kind of feel like that leaves Dex and Int in the lurch. If going for that level of homogenization (which I'd actually be okay with) it might be better to go all the way and make the scaling entirely superstat-based.
    Problem is that the inherent effects of Dex are better than the inherent effects of Str or Ego, so if you make them all equal, people just go Dex.
    And likewise, they'd never go Int. That said, I'm all for some stat retuning to knock dex down a few pegs, move Int up a few pegs, make Rec's specializations not awful, and soforth. That's for another thread, though.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah, but you're making this suggestion specifically so you never have to do the former. This is just a disingenuous attempt to get a dps increase. If you really wanted this dynamic, rather than just being able to use better dps/healing attributes with all your forms, you would be suggesting that energy generation across the board needs to be nerfed.​​
    Not really, because if I want a dps increase, I can just take a form that scales with better stats
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    Not really, because if I want a dps increase, I can just take a form that scales with better stats

    *facepalm* No dear, I'm saying that you want these changes made so that all the forms scale with what you consider the better stats.​​
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