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Being Rooted When You Charge/Maintain A Power, Suck

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    A power with a longer charge time shouldn't do higher dps, it should do higher damage per hit if you fully charge it. And Haymaker dps is not bad now that there demolish refreshes, but you'd need to go out-of-set for those. For instance HW dps is far lower. (But 75k per haymaker (or is that dps?) is not overly realistic on cosmic fights.)
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 651 Arc User
    Can't you just do more dps with burning chi fist, while staying in-set? The only people worried about single-target burst are pvp'ers who haven't come to terms with reality yet.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    vonqball wrote: »
    Can't you just do more dps with burning chi fist, while staying in-set? The only people worried about single-target burst are pvp'ers who haven't come to terms with reality yet.

    There are actually PvE scenarios where burst is useful. Dino DPS check and Eido orbs being two examples.​​
  • melphyx2melphyx2 Posts: 170 Arc User
    Eido's geysers literally do high dmg. That why selfroot-powers are annoying when try to react fast. I suggest all powers must be non-root when charge/maintain.

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited February 26
    Selfroot during charge/maintain isn't a problem for those geysers, you can just stop attacking and move away. The problem is charge (or click) powers with selfroot during activation, and there are very few powers that have that. Annihilate is a prominent exception.
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    Been suggesting this to devs since the HW revamp but nope! Fallen on deaf ears. I mean, we could always just tap spam Annihilate when you know Geyser phase is coming, but it still has the risk of getting hit because those wireframes are bs sometimes.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    Or just have another attack that doesn't self-root you in addition to Annihilate. HW has plenty of those. Wait... are you people doing that thing where you only take like... one attack or something? :3c​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited February 27
    I think most people only have 1 high damage attack, the other attacks are for synergies, utility, AoE, debuffs, etc. Sets are very much designed for such a setup. The stage of the fight with geysers is also the stage where dps is most important, it's not a good answer using a lower dps attack at that point (on an already relatively low ish dps set).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited February 27
    Well, Arc of Ruin is HW's debuff applier, and it doesn't root while charging. Also, is dps on Eido important during that phase? Using Arc instead of Annihilate isn't going to extend the fight enough that it would make a real difference. On the other hand players dropping dead removes potential dps from a subsequent green orb, so it seems that doing a bit less dps on Eido in exchange for surviving the geysers and being alive for the green orb is a logical and beneficial sacrifice.

    Sets are sure set up for a "1 nuke, + other attacks for utility" setup, primarily because most sets only have 1 nuke to begin with. However, the 2015 "1 attack" setup is absolutely not what modern power sets are designed around.​​
  • melphyx2melphyx2 Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited February 27
    Well, ones say selfroot isnt a issue, other say is a issue.
    But what if all (powers, healing, debuff, buff, holds...) were selfroot.?

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Using Arc instead of Annihilate isn't going to extend the fight enough that it would make a real difference.​​

    Not for the whole team, but for that individual player the difference is huge. A set/fight shouldn't be balanced around other sets picking up the slack. So again, that is not a good answer.
    melphyx2 wrote: »
    Well, ones say selfroot isnt a issue, other say is a issue.
    But what if all (powers, healing, debuff, buff, holds...) were selfroot.?

    How is it an issue when you can move instantly after you stop charging or maintaining your powers?
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 651 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    vonqball wrote: »
    Can't you just do more dps with burning chi fist, while staying in-set? The only people worried about single-target burst are pvp'ers who haven't come to terms with reality yet.

    There are actually PvE scenarios where burst is useful. Dino DPS check and Eido orbs being two examples.​​

    Yah, I get that. I was talking about people who care enough about single-target burst to want haymaker nerfed. Not many players are looking to increase the difficulty of dps checks in open world content.

  • melphyx2melphyx2 Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited February 28
    aiqa wrote: »
    How is it an issue when you can move instantly after you stop charging or maintaining your powers?

    Thus, why not be it when it's charging/maintaining too?

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited February 28
    melphyx2 wrote: »
    aiqa wrote: »
    How is it an issue when you can move instantly after you stop charging or maintaining your powers?

    Thus, why not be it when it's charging/maintaining too?

    That is a balance mechanic. Just like some powers have higher range, others a different energy cost, etc. So again, why is it a problem?
  • melphyx2melphyx2 Posts: 170 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    That is a balance mechanic. Just like some powers have higher range, others a different energy cost, etc. So again, why is it a problem?

    OK, I do not think I explained in the past publications. The reason why it would be a good idea to put all the non-selroot powers is so that we can move freely when we are confronted by a situation that we want to escape suddenly, or not to die among other situations. I know that if we stop charging or maintaining powers we can move. But not all players have a mouse with several buttons to handle that. Many use the method of clicking and dragging the powers to use the mouse in other things at the same time. Which is somewhat uncomfortable for many. Even this idea would be genie and more comfortable for PVP (I'm not PVP just in case). They would have better flexibility to enjoy duels.


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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 922 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Well, Arc of Ruin is HW's debuff applier, and it doesn't root while charging. Also, is dps on Eido important during that phase? Using Arc instead of Annihilate isn't going to extend the fight enough that it would make a real difference. On the other hand players dropping dead removes potential dps from a subsequent green orb, so it seems that doing a bit less dps on Eido in exchange for surviving the geysers and being alive for the green orb is a logical and beneficial sacrifice.

    Sets are sure set up for a "1 nuke, + other attacks for utility" setup, primarily because most sets only have 1 nuke to begin with. However, the 2015 "1 attack" setup is absolutely not what modern power sets are designed around.​​

    I don't agree with all of this, but the point about Geysers is important. Seeing as how if enough people fail that when it comes up, it can extend the time of the fight . . . yeah, being able to MOVE YOUR ARSE quickly is more important for that stage. :p
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    melphyx2 wrote: »
    aiqa wrote: »
    That is a balance mechanic. Just like some powers have higher range, others a different energy cost, etc. So again, why is it a problem?

    OK, I do not think I explained in the past publications. The reason why it would be a good idea to put all the non-selroot powers is so that we can move freely when we are confronted by a situation that we want to escape suddenly, or not to die among other situations. I know that if we stop charging or maintaining powers we can move. But not all players have a mouse with several buttons to handle that. Many use the method of clicking and dragging the powers to use the mouse in other things at the same time. Which is somewhat uncomfortable for many. Even this idea would be genie and more comfortable for PVP (I'm not PVP just in case). They would have better flexibility to enjoy duels.

    I see, that is a bit of an unusual playstyle and I can see how that would cause a problem. For using powers with a selfroot you're probably best of using hotkeys.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited March 1
    aiqa wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Using Arc instead of Annihilate isn't going to extend the fight enough that it would make a real difference.

    Not for the whole team, but for that individual player the difference is huge. A set/fight shouldn't be balanced around other sets picking up the slack. So again, that is not a good answer.

    Even if every player there is HW it wouldn't matter. Downing Eido quickly during third phase isn't what wins the fight, downing Green Orbs consistently is.

    HW isn't balanced around other sets picking up the slack, HW is balanced around added damage that wasn't added. Let's not try to skew reality here. I doubt "other sets will do the damage this one isn't doing" is a mechanic they'll ever actually use. However "lower damage for higher mobility" certainly is. Annihilate should be one of the highest performing melee dps powers, and we can wait for the actual HW revamp to see if that becomes a reality.​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Even if every player there is HW it wouldn't matter. Downing Eido quickly during third phase isn't what wins the fight, downing Green Orbs consistently is.

    Having 4 or 6 green orb spawns at stage 3 can make a big difference. I've seen many runs where things stalled at stage 3 until there were a few lucky spawns that were placed easy enough to get through them.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited March 1
    If we have a group that needs lucky green placements to succeed, that means we don't have enough dps on green orbs, not eido.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    A power with a longer charge time shouldn't do higher dps
    It probably should, actually, at least for melee abilities; slower powers are more likely to get interrupted and should thus get a bonus to make up for the inconvenience, though it doesn't have to be terribly large. For ranged powers, you get the bonus of higher alpha strike (a 3s/15k damage charge is the same dps as a 0.5s/2.5k damage maintain, but if you use the maintain your targets will spend an extra 2.5s beating on you), but that's not really relevant to melee.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 643 Arc User
    In my opinion, the worst Eido combo to work on is: a full set of Green Orbs (3) during a full set of Portals (3).

    Portals just keep spawning more tough adds. Greens will pop in a short time span, but some players can survive this by just blocking IF at least one Orb goes down.

    Portal adds tend to overwhelm survivors of the Orb explosion.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    In my opinion, the worst Eido combo to work on is: a full set of Green Orbs (3) during a full set of Portals (3).
    Note that that mostly can't happen. Portals only spawn above 1/3 health, 3 green orbs only spawn below 1/3, so the only way to get that is for people to ignore the portals and beat Eido from above to below 1/3 while they're up.

    In general, a Green fail is extremely likely to produce cascading fails, because the Green debuff to dps and healing makes it very hard to deal with Greens, Yellows, or non-bugged Reds. Greens or Reds summoned mid-Yellow are almost always because a prior Green fail prevented rapidly killing the Yellow. Occasionally you get cascading fails from something else causing mass deaths (being slow on killing Reds can result in a lot of dead characters, and of course there's Eido turning on the dps with shadow embrace), but mostly it's about the greens.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    A power with a longer charge time shouldn't do higher dps
    It probably should, actually, at least for melee abilities; slower powers are more likely to get interrupted and should thus get a bonus to make up for the inconvenience, though it doesn't have to be terribly large. For ranged powers, you get the bonus of higher alpha strike (a 3s/15k damage charge is the same dps as a 0.5s/2.5k damage maintain, but if you use the maintain your targets will spend an extra 2.5s beating on you), but that's not really relevant to melee.

    There are other balance mechanics you can use, like energy cost.

    As for gameplay issues.
    - Haymaker has a knockback, having a longer charge time is also an advantage since you are more likely to oneshot your target freeing you up from having to chase them.
    - Interaction with CC is better with a higher charge time.
    - A longer charge is an advantage for damage checks like against Teleiosaurus.
    - You don't have to do a full charge, that is just an option. Of course the shorter charge shouldn't make a huge difference in dps, but the double charge scaling on haymaker is a separate issue.
  • melphyx2melphyx2 Posts: 170 Arc User
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    I don't agree with all of this, but the point about Geysers is important. Seeing as how if enough people fail that when it comes up, it can extend the time of the fight . . . yeah, being able to MOVE YOUR ARSE quickly is more important for that stage. :p

    Yeah. In Eido attempt would be good move fast; for geyser, orbs, porltals. The think is react fast in all some situations.

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    It probably should, actually, at least for melee abilities; slower powers are more likely to get interrupted and should thus get a bonus to make up for the inconvenience, though it doesn't have to be terribly large. For ranged powers, you get the bonus of higher alpha strike (a 3s/15k damage charge is the same dps as a 0.5s/2.5k damage maintain, but if you use the maintain your targets will spend an extra 2.5s beating on you), but that's not really relevant to melee.

    It is relevant to melee with those fabulous new mobile PBAoE attacks... like say Arc of Ruin. Fun times charging that to full and timing it so it goes off just as you jump into a group. Basically gives melee an alpha strike. The best one for this isn't even new, it's Sword Cyclone with Butcher's Blades. Even with immobile PBAoE attacks you can leap into a group, or drop in from above and charge them on the way in, like with Havoc Stomp for example. Oddly enough Bestial is a set that doesn't have something like this so I guess it isn't the super favorite set after all.​​
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