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Too much 'Soak Tanks' just blocking, doing nothing at Dino.

monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
edited January 2019 in Champions Online Discussion
Yes we have several damage reflection devices and some block powers dealing damage but...
I feel not so good seeing many tanks just block and standing and causing DPS check failing many times.
I feel its just a leech. At least they should do something during DPS check or wish for less score for no rewards. o3o

Comments

  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    Does we even need 'tanks' not holding aggro or even deal damages by attacking?
    Its not a soak tank but a statue just eating support buffs. o3o
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,526 Arc User
    Well, some people may be new to tanking dino and are trying to be cautious and learn the timing? Or maybe it's a vet cautiously trying a new build? I know I always attack when ST, MT or BT.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    I mean if they're just standing there holding block then what timing would they be learning u3u gotta get some taps out at least. And if that vet really wants to test their build they should probably use it... I mean unless it's literally just a block and then a bunch of heals? That could be neat. Someone do that.​​
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    My fire block does lots o damage. Shuddup!​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Soak tanks who don't attack have a pretty good chance of not getting credit either, so it's a bit of a self-correcting problem. The main use for soak tanks at dino is for when she glitches and bites for 300k damage.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 773 Arc User
    I think they help a lot more than they hurt, esp when those bites come down and kill the most sturdy tanks in one shot.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    I think they help a lot more than they hurt, esp when those bites come down and kill the most sturdy tanks in one shot.

    But aggro just moves to DPS side in most case. If aggro moves tank to tank, I won't say anything. o3o
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    Regarding the tanks who are standing in the DPS pile and providing minimal to negative contribution.. this is going to continue as long as open world content exist. In the current state of cosmics the most productive option is to try to help the people you see doing so learn to give meaningful contribution. It’s also a never ending process as long as new players are joining the game.
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  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    Regarding the tanks who are standing in the DPS pile and providing minimal to negative contribution.. this is going to continue as long as open world content exist. In the current state of cosmics the most productive option is to try to help the people you see doing so learn to give meaningful contribution. It’s also a never ending process as long as new players are joining the game.

    As is, while standing in the middle of the pack, I view some players only using their Energy Builder during the entire encounter.

    But, now I digress from the "tank" portion of the dialogue.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    monaahiru wrote: »
    nbkxs wrote: »
    I think they help a lot more than they hurt, esp when those bites come down and kill the most sturdy tanks in one shot.

    But aggro just moves to DPS side in most case. If aggro moves tank to tank, I won't say anything. o3o
    Point is, if dino does a super-bite that would normally do 320k base damage, or something like 20k after defenses and blocking, a soak tank means it does only 160k to each, and both tanks live.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    monaahiru wrote: »
    nbkxs wrote: »
    I think they help a lot more than they hurt, esp when those bites come down and kill the most sturdy tanks in one shot.

    But aggro just moves to DPS side in most case. If aggro moves tank to tank, I won't say anything. o3o
    Point is, if dino does a super-bite that would normally do 320k base damage, or something like 20k after defenses and blocking, a soak tank means it does only 160k to each, and both tanks live.

    Ah, I didn't notice that. Alright, kk for this thread.
    BTW the same thing happen at Eido?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    monaahiru wrote: »
    Ah, I didn't notice that. Alright, kk for this thread.
    BTW the same thing happen at Eido?
    No, Eido has some splittable attacks but doesn't have the super-damage glitches, and a soak tank is an additional geyser target so sort of a liability once you reach the third bar.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    monaahiru wrote: »
    Ah, I didn't notice that. Alright, kk for this thread.
    BTW the same thing happen at Eido?
    No, Eido has some splittable attacks but doesn't have the super-damage glitches, and a soak tank is an additional geyser target so sort of a liability once you reach the third bar.

    I rarely see some Tanks standing near by MT at Eido and that runs are 100% fail so far...
    I noted that. o3o
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,526 Arc User
    If dino fails because of one soak tank not doing damage isn't the real culprit terrible dps?
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  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    If dino fails because of one soak tank not doing damage isn't the real culprit terrible dps?

    I sometimes see more then 2 non- MT/OT tanks...
  • Honestly I appreciate soak tanks even if they aren't attacking, atleast one we don't need a army, or if they're learning that's fine but I think they won't learn if they just block, but soak tanks always help, I find it a issue when it's tanks in dps pile, not trying to provide help, and/or stealing aggro towards the dps pile. however as the person said above, it's open world content, it's an MMO best we can do is try to help them and stuff, instead of calling them out rudely in zone or making forum posts.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    If dino fails because of one soak tank not doing damage isn't the real culprit terrible dps?
    Well, if you replaced the soak tank with a dps, dps would be better...
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 773 Arc User
    The sentient AI is not wrong.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,916 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    If dino fails because of one soak tank not doing damage isn't the real culprit terrible dps?
    Well, if you replaced the soak tank with a dps, dps would be better...
    don't most DPS die even if they block bites? :p

    Heh. I gotta say that if you're new to Cosmic tanking it's REALLY easy to get squashed flat as a ST. Then again I play a Regen tank instead of Defiance so that adds a bit of extra challenge to it.
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  • I think it would be smart for the soak tank to attack during thr dps check.... But it only helps if you are failing checks by a very very small margin. Usually just safer to keep blocking.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Actually the OT should be attacking during the DPS check since neither dino is dealing any damage. All tanks should be absolutely spamming their fingers off during the DPS check.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Actually the OT should be attacking during the DPS check since neither dino is dealing any damage.
    However, they will do so a lot better if they also do something (what depends on toggle) to maintain form/enrage stacks. Attacking is also good practice for being a main tank.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Passive OTs are just a normal response to tanking mechanics on cosmics. If the devs want more active (off/soak)tanking the mechanics just need to enforce that more.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    Passive OTs are just a normal response to tanking mechanics on cosmics.
    Hm. Debatable. The optimal response to tanking mechanics for cosmics is generally to have a single main tank, and a single character (OT at dino, CC at ape, kiga) doing add management. The fundamental problem is that the number of tanks who want to be at cosmics (for GCR, if nothing else) is often higher than the number of tanks actually needed, so there's excess tanks, and it's better for them to be soak tanks than try to dps from the dps pile and cause the cosmic to turn and attack the dps.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Well, the whole "attack or don't get enough score, and hence no rewards" enforces this on short runs at least. Removing score for taking damage entirely and instead making it so that being hit by a cosmic's main attack applies a debuff to you that temporarily increases how much score you get for attacking would enforce it even more. Then add a decaying score requiring everyone to be constantly attacking or risk no rewards would enforce it on even long runs.

    Currently the only non-scoreboard related way of enforcing offensive behavior from off-tanks is Dodge tanking. They could do some sort of thing where the tanks all get a debuff on them frequently throughout the fight and to get it off before it does something horrible they have to hit the boss a few times. Like say Dino rears back for an extreme mega chomp, and only the damage coming from people who got hit by the last normal bite, via a debuff, counts towards stopping the mega chomp - hit it with enough damage and the mega chomp is instead a regular bite.​​
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    Elitist problems .
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The mega chomp is probably a bug -- mama gets buffs based on the distance to the baby, and mega chomps mostly occur in situations when the baby is moving, suggesting that those buffs can stack improperly.
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    Passive OTs are just a normal response to tanking mechanics on cosmics.
    Hm. Debatable. The optimal response to tanking mechanics for cosmics is generally to have a single main tank, and a single character (OT at dino, CC at ape, kiga) doing add management. The fundamental problem is that the number of tanks who want to be at cosmics (for GCR, if nothing else) is often higher than the number of tanks actually needed, so there's excess tanks, and it's better for them to be soak tanks than try to dps from the dps pile and cause the cosmic to turn and attack the dps.
    This is the real issue.

    As far as the "soak" tank attacking or not, unless they are an unusually high dps tank, it hardly makes a difference. Certainly everyone should be attacking during DPS check, but a couple tanks attacking during the non-check periods is not going to significantly shorten the length of the run.

    The main reason a secondary tank should be attacking is to build aggro so that if the main tank misses a block, the secondary will take up aggro, instead of a healer or DPS.
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  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    SPEAKING FOR ALL BABY TANKS:

    Even when I've engaged Baby dino and smack it between chomps, bubbles, and breath, often I don't make the reward circle because the dps was good enough to maybe only miss one check. My dps as the Baby tank needs more consideration. Thank you.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Give Dino a sizeable resistance buff while it's above 70% health. There, now babby tanks and OTs get credit, without substantially changing the fight.​​
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,526 Arc User
    If you are BT and you think it is going to be a fast run the best option is to stand to the side of mom opposite the dps and hit it for all you have until baby appears. Another fun option as BT is to swing baby around to breathe on the dps just before a dps check so that the check fails and the run goes long enough for BT to get credit ;)
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  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    If you are BT and you think it is going to be a fast run the best option is to stand to the side of mom opposite the dps and hit it for all you have until baby appears. Another fun option as BT is to swing baby around to breathe on the dps just before a dps check so that the check fails and the run goes long enough for BT to get credit ;)

    A) My psychic abilities are quite limited and don't extend to this functionality.

    b) Yes, I love to piss off a bunch of players just to make sure I get credit. :/​​
    .

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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,526 Arc User
    Mine are too, but some times I see the usual suspects there with the usual builds and have a pretty good idea that it's going to be fast.

    Have you ever noticed how often on runs where the BT does not get credit no one expresses condolences?
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Have you ever noticed how often on runs where the BT does not get credit no one expresses condolences?
    A lot of the time it's expressed on non-public channels.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    You don't have to turn the baby, you can just die and say in zone "Oops, missed a block" and then baby will do it for you.​​
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,526 Arc User
    Gotta say, I've never had anyone thank me for doing BT duty. I hang with the wrong crowd.

    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Have you ever noticed how often on runs where the BT does not get credit no one expresses condolences?
    A lot of the time it's expressed on non-public channels.

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Gotta say, I've never had anyone thank me for doing BT duty. I hang with the wrong crowd.
    More expression of sympathy when you fail to get credit.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,198 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    What else do you expect 'Soak tanks' to do other then assist splitting the damage/periodically attack with the main/super tank taking all the aggro because of the other advantages of extra aggro generation? Gauntlets of Defender, Damage reflection and confront mods to name a few, compared to those that use basic Challenge and Tank Role isn't enough, unless the Super Tank makes a mistake, which in my experience, doesn't happen that often for the secondary tanks to take over or vice versa by bites or any other damage defeats them.
    Post edited by rtma on
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    rtma wrote: »
    What else do you expect 'Soak tanks' to do other then assist splitting the damage/periodically attack

    We expect them to assist splitting damage and periodically attack, and to attack aggressively during DPS checks. I think that's pretty clear at this point. At no point has anybody implied that they need to overtake any other tank in threat. In fact, that's generally not beneficial as this can cause Dino to slightly rotate to face the new target which changes the location of the zones for tail damage and splitting bite damage. The result of this rotation can be that DPS start suddenly dropping since the change can often be too subtle to really read from the side.

    Maintaining enough threat so that the off tank becomes the new target if the current main tank dies is sufficient - you don't have to overtake any of the other tanks, you just have to stay ahead of the dps. If as you say in your experience it is rarely the case that tanks go down, then feel free to just stand there and block. Just don't complain if that doesn't net you enough score for rewards. Also take the blame if the tank does go down and dino turns on the dps instead of you.
    rtma wrote: »
    with the main/super tank taking all the aggro because of the other advantages of extra aggro generation? Gauntlets of Defender, Damage reflection and confront mods to name a few, compared to those that use basic Challenge and Tank Role isn't enough

    It's your choice to only use basic challenge and tank role. All that other stuff is accessible to everyone, so there's really no room to complain if you choose not to acquire it. I mean really there's no reason to complain either, it's not a big deal if you're not dino's current target, you're still contributing to the fight via soaking and serving as backup tank. Also, I recently tanked Ape and Dino on a ranged tank that was using just challenge, tank role, and gauntlets of the defender, no confront mods, so not having the entire suite of threat-increasing options is no excuse to not stay ahead of the dps.​​
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    rtma wrote: »
    What else do you expect 'Soak tanks' to do other then assist splitting the damage/periodically attack

    We expect them to assist splitting damage and periodically attack, and to attack aggressively during DPS checks. I think that's pretty clear at this point. At no point has anybody implied that they need to overtake any other tank in threat. In fact, that's generally not beneficial as this can cause Dino to slightly rotate to face the new target which changes the location of the zones for tail damage and splitting bite damage. The result of this rotation can be that DPS start suddenly dropping since the change can often be too subtle to really read from the side.

    Maintaining enough threat so that the off tank becomes the new target if the current main tank dies is sufficient - you don't have to overtake any of the other tanks, you just have to stay ahead of the dps. If as you say in your experience it is rarely the case that tanks go down, then feel free to just stand there and block. Just don't complain if that doesn't net you enough score for rewards. Also take the blame if the tank does go down and dino turns on the dps instead of you.
    rtma wrote: »
    with the main/super tank taking all the aggro because of the other advantages of extra aggro generation? Gauntlets of Defender, Damage reflection and confront mods to name a few, compared to those that use basic Challenge and Tank Role isn't enough

    It's your choice to only use basic challenge and tank role. All that other stuff is accessible to everyone, so there's really no room to complain if you choose not to acquire it. I mean really there's no reason to complain either, it's not a big deal if you're not dino's current target, you're still contributing to the fight via soaking and serving as backup tank. Also, I recently tanked Ape and Dino on a ranged tank that was using just challenge, tank role, and gauntlets of the defender, no confront mods, so not having the entire suite of threat-increasing options is no excuse to not stay ahead of the dps.

    Agreed on all points.

    However, one can't expect to start and hold main aggro with this setup, due to the nature of some players with some pretty high alpha strikes. You might, but you also may be fighting to gain aggro without some attacking of your own. Often, the MT has to get some hits in then has to block for a bit. Sure, it can be done. And sometimes not. But, as pointed out above, this can be "self-correcting" by the fact that the non-tank, who now has Dino/Ape/Kiga aggro, usually dies quickly.

    I have characters that are dual-passives (dps & tank). And they have a second set of gear for the non-primary passive. But, they don't always have any extra aggro-gear. Just the stance. But, when a Soak is needed, they can fill the bill.

    The unfortunate bit about ranged tanks at Cosmics is, you tend to need to be at melee range to "soak". If you are the MT, Ape and Dino will move to melee range and defeats the "reason" to be ranged. We've proven that Kiga can be done by a ranged tank, but that can be a problem if the tank gets too far from the pack. Heals and a Tomb on the tank can be problematic.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Yeah, but ranged tanks have benefits in a lot of content, so it's fine to not have them at all cosmics. Ranged tanks make great babby tanks though. Use a nice wide aoe to ensure quick grabbing of babby, then run into position and spam meaty ranged attacks on it while it slowly makes its way to you. On my ranged tank I use venom breath and I post up behind mom when babby is about to spawn and just keep maintaining it, so I'm in relative safety behind dino and baby spawns right in the wide part of the cone. Also it looks like I'm spraying poison into Dino's butt and that's funny to me o3o​​
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah, but ranged tanks have benefits in a lot of content, so it's fine to not have them at all cosmics. Ranged tanks make great babby tanks though. Use a nice wide aoe to ensure quick grabbing of babby, then run into position and spam meaty ranged attacks on it while it slowly makes its way to you. On my ranged tank I use venom breath and I post up behind mom when babby is about to spawn and just keep maintaining it, so I'm in relative safety behind dino and baby spawns right in the wide part of the cone. Also it looks like I'm spraying poison into Dino's butt and that's funny to me o3o

    Good points and agreed.​​
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Gotta say, I've never had anyone thank me for doing BT duty. I hang with the wrong crowd.

    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Have you ever noticed how often on runs where the BT does not get credit no one expresses condolences?
    A lot of the time it's expressed on non-public channels.

    You must. I have gotten thanked many a time for BTing. Maybe not individually, but lots of people give a general tank thanks in zone. And, if there is a request for a tank or something in a channel and you respond, people often say thanks.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah, but ranged tanks have benefits in a lot of content
    What content is that? It's helpful for tanking Gravitar because it means the melee dps get killed less, but outside of that it seems to range from irrelevant to detrimental.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah, but ranged tanks have benefits in a lot of content
    What content is that? It's helpful for tanking Gravitar because it means the melee dps get killed less, but outside of that it seems to range from irrelevant to detrimental.

    Grond and Telios as well. Not so much Medusa or Dino. Also the majority of the rest of the game. Is that enough?​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Grond and Telios as well.
    Grond I guess; Teleios just runs up and gets in your face anyway, like most bosses (which is why it's generally irrelevant).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited January 2019
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,916 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Gotta say, I've never had anyone thank me for doing BT duty. I hang with the wrong crowd.
    If I'm playing as Pyrana or Phantasma I usually stand with the melee DPS and spam Iniquity on the BT. Having people keep you from dying is better than having them thank you. :p
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