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CO becoming WoW in regards to support
xcelsior41
Posts: 1,056 Arc User
I feel CO is becoming WoW-esque. At first I was miffed about Trinity in a FF based game, but put it towards the back of my mind as I figured this was the intent of the devs. But, I'm starting to notice the lack of diversity in powers (especially healers. EVERY healer has iniquity I've seen for ST. AoE healing is lacking but there's some options. Support overall is being tunneled into ONLY being regarded as a healer but that's another issue entirely). DPS/Tank is fairly open to interpretation/diversity, but support is being tunneled into the same cookie cutter builds. Actaully, WoW has more diversity in regards to support which is seriously concerning.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.
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But saying that CO is similar to WoW is an overestimation imo. CO's mechanics are pretty lax compared to WoW.
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My Fire healer for example doesn't use Iniquity and I've healed TA and Cosmics with them and did great, scored very high, even outscored all the Iniquity healers there. Yay me. It's nothing new that people stick to the easiest thing and are unwilling to deviate; those people will of course have a short rough period when the Celestial revamp comes around, but don't worry it won't be too rough because there are other great options.
As for the game becoming trinity, it's always been trinity, there was just never a reason to make specialized characters because everything was just a generic mass of samey enemies that rewarded making a tuff dps. If you want to write an article about a time period where FF builds all looked the same, let's go back to 2015 and write about how there were no healers, tanks, dps, or CC, and everyone was just a tuff dps ( occasionally you would see a pet build ). The game has had Archetypes for longer than it hasn't, so the trinity has been with us well before Kaizerin and co took the reigns.
So how trinity is the game right now? Well, those tuff DPS do in fact still have the majority of content to feel useful in. There's only 2 encounters still that need specialized DPS, and everything else is content where you can bring all sorts of builds and much of it is in fact content where mixed builds will thrive (2/4 cosmics for example). Oh wait this thread is about support isn't it? Okay, one of my supports is an AoED pet build, no Iniquity, can still effectively heal, and contributes damage. My newest healer is a fire healer, who is actually a hybrid healer/dps, no Iniquity, both effectively heals and contributes damage. Then there's my old healer that I made way back when TA first came out who does use Iniquity. So I dunno, for my healers at least there's plenty of diversity, only 1/3 uses Iniquity, but they all effectively serve the role of healer.
TL;DR - if you feel your healer is being "tunneled into the same cookie cutter builds" it's because you're doing that, not the game. Stop doing that if you don't like it. The game has options other than Iniquity, and they work great.
#LecturingLoli
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You know there are other 100 range heals.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I respect this perspective. But, I have now witnessed the most outdated and highest cringe factor statement(well, besides some CO memes) on CO
Well yeah everyone knows that. But what the issue is is that It's not being seen as often. I don't see a lot of(or any) fire healers at cosmics, I only see people using Iniquity because it's said to be the fastest and best heal in the game, and ofc prot. field is, despite other little buffs in the game, the best and longest lasting/sturdiest ally buff in the game(and subsequently tacked on to a lot of builds). I'd like to see more fire/telepathy/other healers at cosmics, really.
42 40s, LTSer.
Tell people to make them. Good luck convincing people to step out of the comfort box that somebody told them to stand in. I hear videos are effective tho. See this is why the "No just leave the good powers as they are and change other stuff to be better" argument that people try to push every time a popular power gets changed doesn't work. You can't convince people to abandon garbage metas, even when those people are themselves acknowledging that it is and complaining about it being a boring garbage meta. You have to smash the meta to force people to do something else. The period where people cry over it is just a bonus.
Iniquity will be smash. The period right after is going to be a very interesting time to do cosmics owo
Future proofing o3o wear weights now so when they turn up gravity you can take them off and already be acclimated.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Of my CCers, 2 of 3 use Bionic Shield. Third as no 100' heal.
No ATs (cuz I'm LTS) but I always have variety.
So far, the only place 100' heals are that helpful (for me) are if you are trying to heal the Baby tank while standing in the pack at Dino.
Psionic heal hits big (or a monster, if it crits) with a long charge. Can't use it on the run like Iniquity. But you can tap spam it. And I use it on my AoAC healer.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
If you raise them or lower them it all equals the same result. Except one change; it's not ONE power, it's multiple all being good, so a lot less all have the same iniquity spam you see around. Oh and videos aren't effective
42 40s, LTSer.
Then what are you hoping to accomplish by posting here o3o
Also my videos are on Youtube, not forums ^_^
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Same as you whenever you post
42 40s, LTSer.
I wasn't the one making the claim that posting on forums is pointless, that was you. Remember? Keep in mind that while we can observe the number of people who post here, we can't discern the number of people who just read posts, a number which is guaranteed to be larger than the number of people who post. Also, there is a much more diverse sampling of names in the builds section than the rest. If you were actually hoping to promote some change, that'd be the place to go.
My videos have actually influenced people into changing how they make characters. How many people have you gotten to stop using Iniquity? Have you at least gotten yourself to stop using it?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I mean...yeah lol? I have a fire healer myself. I do need to respec her a little bit, and maybe change a power or two(fire prison sucks unfortunately for a healer build. Eh, you learn as you go I suppose). ALL my healers have Celestial conduit minus what? two? So uh...yeah never was a super contender in the meta
Edit: I admit you at least are trying to help. While I have my doubts on how many people outside of the forums you've influenced or think you've influenced to change, I do respect you trying.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It isn't that there is a lack of diversity, but, people just cherry picking. They choose the "best" performing, where "best" is what they believe to be doing better than the others. That is most likely what you are seeing. If I am to be "competitive" and thus aiming for being the "best", I'd research what the "best" builds are instead of building for fun. Some people do that, others don't. It is just the luck of the draw of who you get and their builds.
As for more diversity in regards to support...that is easier to do with an actual class system than a FF system that doesn't have a good amount of support powers. If CO had around 5 times more healing/support powers across more than...4 to 6 power sets (Sorcery, Celestial, Telepathy, Fire...am I forgetting some? Does Gadgeteering count?)...there would easily be more diversity. After all, in WoW, there are only four different sources of healing, Druids use Nature, Shamans use the Elements (water mostly for healing), Priests and Paladins both use the Light, and Monks use Chi. So, while the classes play different, the sources of those powers are not that diverse compared to CO. And, in reality, with how FF works in CO, there are more than six different types of healers/support you can make (choosing different talents in WoW is no different than the Advantage Point system here in CO, so, that doesn't count for making different healers/supports). I mean, sure, you'd be stuck with only certain types of healing/support powers, but, you can choose other sets for combat purposes and overall theme. And in that aspect, CO has more healer/support class diversity, just, not power diversity.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
There is some truth on the first part. But, in truth, it is possible for them to be made to basically heal for the same amount (using healing for an example) yet be different in truth. That is what secondary effects are for. Of course, they have to be careful to not give any secondary effect that just out shines the others. That is what balancing is in a nut shell. For example, if I have two healing abilities that heal over time, each healing for 1k per tick and tick twice per second, how can I make it so that each it different yet is wanted? I could, in this instance, make it so that power A increases the target's damage output by 10% while the power is active on them and that power B decreases the damage received by the target by 10% (or however much is necessary to be wanted by players) while the power is active on them. And while we are at it, we can through in a third power that does the same amount of healing, but, removes and prevents the applications of movement restricting debuffs while the healing is active. Of course, with such powers, I'd give a 10 second CD just so they are not spammed.
I made three powers, each one more or less just as useful as the others, yet, different enough that each would be useful in different situations. And, if one appeals more than the others...we nerf it. Like, if the attack buff power turns out to be to good, we reduce the damage buff to 5%. Of course, one of the powers can be...fire, another, celestial, and the third...lets do something different, the third is Darkness.
Rather than trying to make them very similar, it makes more sense to make them as different as possible so there is more to consider. In your example, they were too similar, and the considerations for all three were the same, so people knew exactly which one was best. On the other hand if you're looking at Iniquity vs Absorb Heat, you're looking at two very strong heals, but they're so different that there's much more to think about, and as a result the player will feel more invested in making that choice. To that point as well, the powers shouldn't be too simple. Part of the reason behind such high use of Iniquity is that it's also very simple.. you just take it, and use it, over and over. The only thing you need to consider is that it drains your health, but you're a healer so you can cover that easily. If Iniquity was made a bit more complex or limited, even while keeping its HPS the same, it would stand more even with other choices.
On a side note, the more I use Nova Flare the more I like it. We all looked at that 5ft radius like it was useless, but I actually heal multiple targets with it quite often, and the three heals at rank 3 actually have some delay inbetween them which comes in handy as well. This heal is better than I and others gave it credit for. I've never even considered swapping it for Iniquity.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I like it a lot, too. Whenever I notice a healer using it on the MT, I make sure I tuck in a little closer. I'd like to see some of the soak tanks tuck in a little closer too (mainly at Dino). Too often I see them not getting any of the great Nova Flare healing because they are standing just a bit too far from the MT.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
I didn't get it in my head to start tanking Cosmics until one of the Nightmare invasion events where I ended up tanking a Nightmare Colossus.
Thing is... this made me stop thinking in terms of just showing up and participating and start thinking about doing roles in events. It also made me start playing healers, one of which also does CC.
And yes, both of my healers use iniquity, but I'm seriously thinking about replacing it on Pyrana because Nova Flare would fit her theme better. Phantasma actually uses multiple celestial powers so it's kinda on theme for her.
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My characters
Yes, which in turn would cause the damage buffing one to get nerfed in the buff department. Along with such powers, all other healing powers would get buffs (and nerfs if needed), to bring them in line to the three new powers. This is called "balancing". And if I said shared cooldowns, that wasn't what I meant, I meant that each of them would have their own CD, so, you couldn't spam that single one (you'd be spamming the others till all three are on CD).
Powers that are different have obviously better choices, even more so than the ones I proposed, especially in a FF system. In short, that is not the better way to do things. WoW gets away with doing that because they use this thing called "cooldown" on most powers to prevent the more powerful ones from being spammed all the time, and they also have an actual class system in place. This causes a rather awkward balance (that has some classes doing slightly better than others by like up to only 10%). CO does not use CD on a lot of powers, including more powerful ones, though, that has been changing. Plus, on another note on WoW, WoW can balance things better with having different performing powers because they normally do not allow you to reduce the cool downs of powers except through other powers, talents, and certain gear choices. Beyond that, a 3 minute CD is a 3 minute CD in WoW. In CO, we can reduce the CDs of powers. This somewhat nullifies the impact of cool downs in CO.
In a FF system, powers need to be performing similar enough at the same tier to make people want to take any of them, and not just cherry pick them. Though, let's be honest, most players here do not cherry pick. It's just that some do.
Considering how many fights go, 5ft is not bad in reality. Especially if you plan ahead on who to stand next to.
That's the opposite of how it works. The more different powers are, the less obvious the better choice becomes. This was perfectly illustrated by the example of three heals you gave. I was instantly able to pick out the one that I would take because they were all too similar. I didn't have to think about anything other than which buff would be the most useful in the most encounters - an easy choice considering the other two were quickly revealed as mostly useless. You don't want players thinking less about which power to choose, you want them to think more. More thinking equals more engagement, and more agency.
Unless you nerfed the damage buff into complete uselessness, it would still remain the most popular choice - and if you did that, there would simply be a new obvious best choice, the defense one. Tanks can't depend on a healer having the defense buffing one, so they already make sure they're tough enough to tank any given encounter, which makes that buff redundant. The anti-movement debuff one is just going to be ignored no matter how much you buff it because nobody cares about that and it's extremely niche.
You see the other problem here? Because of how similar the heals are, I'm not even thinking about the heals. The healing portion of the heals are being given zero consideration in a decision on which healing power to choose. That should be the focus of the decision, how the power heals, rather than being left out entirely.
If Iniquity had a 10 second cooldown, lowerable to about 7 seconds, or 5ish seconds with AoAC, would as many people use it as their go-to emergency heal, or would that significantly change the meta surrounding it?
Currently:
"Oh no, those three players are very low on health, I need to get them up quickly. Spam Iniquity."
With cooldown:
"Oh no, those three players are very low on health, I need to get them up quickly. Iniquity. I've only healed one of them, I need to use other heals to help the rest."
I'd say that's a pretty significant impact even with a short cooldown. Aside from that, WoW does more than just cooldowns to balance their class abilities; they've been at this for quite a while so they have quite the bag of ideas to pluck from so it'd be unusual for their balancing process to be so shallow. I'm not really sure why we're referencing WoW so much anyways, just because the OP did? They didn't mean we were becoming like WoW specifically, it was a reference to trinity and FFs becoming classes due to a meta that "forces" people into using certain powers, a claim that people have been making for years and that has never rung true and still doesn't. Powers in this game are generally different enough that the choices between them are meaningful and there are a lot of viable, strong combinations to be made. It's just common in MMOs for people to look stuff up and do what they read, rather than making their own choices. The irony is that they assume they're becoming the strongest they can be by doing this, and yet it seems like the people who experiment and try new things are always the ones finding some new way to be stronger.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I do want to pose a challenge to Spinny. Can you make a character that consistently uses Circle of Ebon Wrath that can solo the QWZ (without a vehicle)?
Well 1. I never use vehicles for the warzone anyway, cause that's hecka boring.
2. Sure, I can make a Darkness toon o3o
Hm... Bestial has some Drain effects too...now you got me thinking. The real question is how to make CoEW useful rather than just a thing you want in the build for lulz. Even on a toon using a healing form it's barely going to add much damage. I mean to be honest I could do that challenge by just tossing CoEW on my pet toon, she has 2 power slots I can play around with and only uses drain life to heal herself.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.