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Role playing by level. How is this NOT flawed?
Every now and then, I see people in RP talking about someone’s character level, things like they can’t take a cosmic being seriously if they’re low level, no level 6 gods, or deciding that in character power is tied to character level. For the most part, I just see this as highly flawed and backed by very poor logic. So I’ll cover the exceptions now. I get that zones you can go into is determined by level. Now there is a workaround with using warps, but it could mean more work for those involved and not everyone has warps. I also know that some places you can’t warp to like the Qliphothic War Zone. You have to be level 40 to get in. Also mobs at least 6 levels below you won’t automatically aggro you in range outside of instances or being in combat. Even then side kicking up can take care of that. Unless there are any other good reasons, I see the rest of the reasoning as really flawed.
First off, why do in-game stats matter for RPing? Aside from level, HP, energy, and buffs, you can’t see the stats of other characters. I suppose some people just can’t let go of that big level number for whatever reason. If you’re mostly focused on RPing on a character, why does it matter to level them up aside from the reasons mentioned above or to have more power slots? How does spending more time grinding make a character “better” for RPing purposes? There’s nothing forcing anyone to treat the RP actions of a level 6 or 40 differently except what’s in their heads.
Secondly, I’ve seen that argument that higher level equals more time spend with the character. I find flaws in this too because you could spend ages on a level 6 or only some hours on a level 40. Although I doubt most people do it, you could buy a character to level 40 and only have spent very little time with them. Even if you spent a small amount of a time with a character it doesn’t mean you can’t RP them well.
Third, if someone is godmodding, why does their level matter? Isn’t poor RPing poor regardless of stats? I often see people say no level 6 gods, which imply that level 7 or 40 gods are okay. Why should anyone be given a pass on poor RPing because they invested more hours into grinding? I know out of character a level 6 cosmic being would have trouble fighting gangsters, but so do level 40s in alerts where gangsters are largely on par with killer robots and supernatural creatures.
Finally, I see the argument that “higher character level equals more power”. Oh sure it does with regular gameplay barring gear. I swear I only see this particular argument come from those with level 40 characters who also happen to have a cookie cutter PvP build. This is further enforced by them only wanting to handle RP battles through the in-game PvP system instead of RPing the battles out. This just strikes me as people who want to be powerful and can’t stand the idea of losing or having less powerful characters than someone else. If someone is going to act like that to me, I just simply won’t RP with them. There is far more to RPing than being the most powerful around.
Does anyone have any good reasons to justify tying someone’s out of character level to in character power? Otherwise I see it as a poor RPing trend.
First off, why do in-game stats matter for RPing? Aside from level, HP, energy, and buffs, you can’t see the stats of other characters. I suppose some people just can’t let go of that big level number for whatever reason. If you’re mostly focused on RPing on a character, why does it matter to level them up aside from the reasons mentioned above or to have more power slots? How does spending more time grinding make a character “better” for RPing purposes? There’s nothing forcing anyone to treat the RP actions of a level 6 or 40 differently except what’s in their heads.
Secondly, I’ve seen that argument that higher level equals more time spend with the character. I find flaws in this too because you could spend ages on a level 6 or only some hours on a level 40. Although I doubt most people do it, you could buy a character to level 40 and only have spent very little time with them. Even if you spent a small amount of a time with a character it doesn’t mean you can’t RP them well.
Third, if someone is godmodding, why does their level matter? Isn’t poor RPing poor regardless of stats? I often see people say no level 6 gods, which imply that level 7 or 40 gods are okay. Why should anyone be given a pass on poor RPing because they invested more hours into grinding? I know out of character a level 6 cosmic being would have trouble fighting gangsters, but so do level 40s in alerts where gangsters are largely on par with killer robots and supernatural creatures.
Finally, I see the argument that “higher character level equals more power”. Oh sure it does with regular gameplay barring gear. I swear I only see this particular argument come from those with level 40 characters who also happen to have a cookie cutter PvP build. This is further enforced by them only wanting to handle RP battles through the in-game PvP system instead of RPing the battles out. This just strikes me as people who want to be powerful and can’t stand the idea of losing or having less powerful characters than someone else. If someone is going to act like that to me, I just simply won’t RP with them. There is far more to RPing than being the most powerful around.
Does anyone have any good reasons to justify tying someone’s out of character level to in character power? Otherwise I see it as a poor RPing trend.
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Personally, I think its a little silly when a "level 6 god" wants to engage in RP and aggro's nearby enemies and then gets pwned and then says:
^ That was one of my first experiences RPing with someone who was low level. Unfortunately, that trend continued and became ridiculous and was actually really irritating.
I guess from my perspective...being level 35-40 at least shows you've actually put some in game time into your character and if you do RP...you've probably RP'd with your character during that time and they've perhaps grown into who they are or are still growing.
That applies to people who RP whilst leveling up, mostly because they'll get more skills as they do and its cringe worthy to watch someone level up and gain a new skill and have no way of backing up why they suddenly have become Invulnerable. So for people who RP that way...or wish to...then yeah...it's horrible to watch and be a part of IMO.
Personally, if I'm running into someone and RPing...I'm not going to want to team with them straight away for aggro reasons. Sometimes I make exceptions but that's just preference, not a hard and fast rule for everyone (obvs).
Occasionally, you'll run into someone who is a level 6 character or a low level character who says they are ex-VIPER/DEMON/ARGENT/Kings of Edom/PSI etc etc...and have no experience of what that enemy group in game does...but try to pass it off as if they are ex-members.
Now it's fine to be an ex-member but put some thought into it. Figure out what they actually do in game or do one better and look up the established lore behind them before affiliating your character with that group and not be able to answer incredibly BASIC questions about them.
I think, if a character has leveled up to 40, there is some hope that they've actually had some mission or arc experience with several groups. I personally appreciate when someone puts effort into what they are RPing, you can tell that right off the bat.
For me, in most cases, leveling adds to that. Some people like to be able to back up their character via in game stats.
Example: I've got a character who is a pure energy being with 'unlimited energy'...and I've decided that if I'm going to say that, is there a way for me to back this up to some extent in game? Oh yes! Endurance stat (which now happens to be viable for DPS)...so I've piled on so much I'm at over 800 maximum energy without the need for AoPM. Sure its not 'unlimited' but its definitely higher than average.
Not everyone does that, but they may enjoy a sense of completion in terms of gearing and leveling their characters.
The answer is, that unless someone has purchased their way to level 40...the general assumption is, they really have spent time with the character, learning what it can do and fine tuning the build...as well as their RP with the character.
I've RP'd with people whose characters started off really cocky and arrogant and as they leveled and were exposed to new things, they became more humble and compassionate to others...I found that to be an interesting progression to see, but I get that that's not always the case.
It depends. If you've got a character that you've carried over from another game or a different setting then yes...I get that they could perhaps be level 12 and super awesome...but in this setting...it'd probably be better represented as a level 40 (if you care about that).
I think it's the hilarity of the situation. CO is level driven at its core. You have to level up in order to obtain new skills and unlock content areas.
So a level 6 character stepping up to me as a level 40 and saying they'll "knock me about" just cracks me up. It just feels dumb AF.
The same goes for level 40 characters who god mod in my books.
Well then. o3o.
Hmm, not here. I've never had a true PvP build.
That mostly depends on how much unnecessary sh1t someone has brought into the RP space. It's all well and good spouting IC abuse at a character who you intend to fight ICly...but when it dips into the realm of them knowing things they couldn't possibly know (not revealed IC) that's when I'd be like...shall we duel? Or 'ignore' (if after several correspondences that doesn't stop).
There may be some truth to this, however, I've always had in mind that if a character of mine who is quite powerful...is going to 'lose' then it has to be to a significant threat or opposition...not to some rando off the street (although that has happened to one of my characters...and it was quite fun!).
I've got characters which to me, range from incredibly powerful to lower levels...so I've never had an issue with someone else being more powerful. (You do get people who don't like that and will try and "investigate" your character via RP and then try to get you to OOC tone them down to suit their needs...that's pretty dumb in my book. Its different if it comes from a position of trying to genuinely help...different when it feels malicious)
But there's an art to finding a balance when it comes to playing someone who is very powerful...its rare to find someone else who has that down.
That's totally up to you. If I ran into someone like that, I'd be so over it very quickly. Sometimes it's fun to toy with people who come across like that. In my experience, some actually have that as a front their character puts on to keep people away...others...are just exhausting lol.
Yes/No.
I see where you are coming from but my experiences have informed my current opinion on players who run around being "all powerful" at level 6. It just inherently feels ridiculous.
I am well aware that its not always the case, but I've yet to run into one.
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Personally, I like to RP mostly in the classic superhero mode, so patrolling, doing actual in game stuff or running RPs in a scenario or map/mission in game. So those who I RP with should ideally be able to cover all those bases pretty well, if the team are entering restricted maps...it can be a drag to the flow of the RP to have to pick someone up and bring them around due to level restrictions.
For me, I always feel a little "incomplete" on certain characters if I am RPing and not at a decent level (30+).
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Well, to be fair on the first part. Not all Gods are equal in terms of power. And certain types of new Gods, such as a mortal becoming a God suddenly, really have no clue as to how to be a God. Thus, they can easily get their **** handed to them. Otherwise, what you say does make sense. If you want to RP a God, but are low level, be smart about what you fight. And RP your low level as a God in a fashion that makes sense on why you are so weak. Like, your powers are sealed and you need to do good deeds and fight battles to slowly unlock them. Or that you are a new God and have no idea what that means really, so you have no real clue about your powers. So, that is indeed a good case on why level matters, but, that should come from the level 6 God, not a level 40 person forcing them to RP that way.
That also goes for Teaming with them. It would be best for the two RPers to RP the session as if the higher level person is teaching them how to use their powers or are helping them regain their lost power.
I agree about playing a character that is an ex-member of an evil organization or a member of a good organization. They should do research on that group to see powers and what not so the RPer can make it believable they are/were part of that organization.
Though, the part about spending time...I agree with him. I have several level 6s that are a few years old. I have spent plenty of time with them, obviously not in the leveling department. What does that mean for people that complain that a level 6 character means you have not spent time on them? Hell, how can I believe a level 40 has spent time on that toon and did not just boost the toon? In short, I do not see this as a valid reason or argument for using levels in rp. This is even more true if the person in question is an old CO gamer, such as myself. Doesn't matter what toon I am on, you won't find me being arrogant.
"So a level 6 character stepping up to me as a level 40 and saying they'll "knock me about" just cracks me up. It just feels dumb AF.
The same goes for level 40 characters who god mod in my books."
Consider the following. If super heroes and supernatural beings were real...there would still be no such thing as levels in real life. Real life has no levels for people. Because of that, in truth, people have the potential, if they wanted to, to continue learning new skills, abilities, etc, till they die. Because of this, level should not be used for RP purposes because it is a game mechanic and not a real life mechanic or true RP mechanic. It should only be used by the lower of the two levels, not the higher to bully the lower level'd toon or force them to have their character act in a way that would not be their character.
But, help me god, I hate god modders. "I'll take a drink of water before we fight, for I am thirsty." "Ha! I had already foresaw you'd do that so I poisoned the water!" I hate it when people do stuff like that.
I've seen builds geared more or less for pvp, still usable in pve though. Not all builds can do pvp as well as some can.
Duels and RP-duels...I find to be on shaky ground really. There is a place for both. If I am rping a human that is skilled at martial arts and a level 6 God comes to fight me (despite me being level 40), I'd rather RP the fight than an actual duel, why? A mortal human that is only skilled at martial arts would not normally stand a chance against a God in combat (depends on the God character's settings though). But, if I'm playing a God myself (which I only have level 40 Gods), and a level 6 God comes up to me to fight me, I'd rather duel because it is obvious at that point that my God is indeed stronger.
But, other than that, I see the arguments for both sides and can understand both sides. But, both sides need to understand there is a time and place for everything, including using levels for RPing.
Back in the days of City of Heroes/Villains/Rogues, it wasn't uncommon for the RPers to comment on each others "Security Level" which was the in lore name for a characters level. The general Lore was that the characters would be subjected to periodic evaluation and possibly training that could allow them a higher Security level which would in turn allow the various agencies of the world to have a general idea of what 'level' of threat a character could handle.
This boils down to how you see the game.
Do you see the game as a means to connect players in an RP group together and allow them to create visual stories?
Or do you see the game as the RP and the mechanics of the game as the mechanics of the world?
Okay, sure but then, my question would be...if a god from Yetzirah for example, has become a mortal for some reason...knowing they are vulnerable...why would they announce that they were a god? Surely that puts that at all sorts of risks...especially if organizations like DEMON or the Bleak Ones get wind of that and want to use them in some freaky ritual?
It'd make more sense for them to learn how to be a mortal and gain skills to defend themselves (leveling up o3o)...before trying to re-attain godhood.
I'd hope someone would have enough sense to figure that out themselves. Since there's all sorts of things to consider when running something like that. Anyway, I'd certainly not force them to RP that way, but just don't look my way for RP if you plan to try and lord your 'Lemurian' godhood over me...at level six...and when I ask you if you know who Vikorin the Blind is you look at me like O_O. <-- I speak from experience there.
That's great, but again...its a matter of ingrained perception about what it means to be a level 6 vs what it means to be a level 40.
Level 40 implies that you have progressed in some way or made an investment in the character...from a purely perception point of view when you think about stepping into a game setting like CO.
Keep in mind this is my personal view, and is not to be generalized to every situation. In yours, as long as your level 6 character isn't an a tw*t and interacts well and comes across well...typically level won't factor into it.
It only becomes a factor when you (not you directly but the general you) become obnoxious.
This unfortunately does nothing to sway my opinion.
You should not try to match an example from a reality that doesn't exist and use that a basis for your counter point in this instance.
The fact is that for some, level does come into it if you are RPing through content and RP whilst you mechanically get through a mission...I'm not carrying a level 6 through a level 40 mission, unless there are very special circumstances.
You saying that its not a true RP mechanic...is dependent on the situation. If it is social...of course, level means naught.
But if we are in Serpent Lantern Elite, Level 40 and 'Marissa the Bountiful' is our only healer at level 16...we are probably going to fail hard without a back up healer and that ruins the RP experience for everyone involved IMO.
So level importance is relative to the situation you fall into as an RPer. If you are a mostly social RPer...level number isn't going to matter to you.
I've got characters which are purely for socials or NPCs...I don't bother to level them...except in one or two instances.
Just say: "Fortunately my physiology allows me to be immune to the poison you put in this water!" then everyone's back on track lmao. (
Mhm, its not an ideal situation (from my standpoint) to be in...if I'm having conflict with other heroes...it is so much more satisfying for it to be a war of words...but I'm not opposed to a punch up once in a blue moon.
You've flattened your earlier argument regarding RPing by level by stating this.
By your earlier logic, you should RP duel in both situations instead of in game PvP because game mechanics shouldn't be taken into consideration...but here, you'd take in game levels and gear and general build into consideration....? #CantRelate
I'm going to need some clarity on this from your PoV lol. Do you mean that as long as no one challenges your level 40 god without being appropriately leveled...and a god...you'll make exceptions?
Same, but I'm sticking to my opinion, I don't believe there's been enough to sway me into considering another angle.
It seems like the OP is coming from a place of "I challenged someone as a level 6 and was told to F off and go level up". I apologize to the OP if that's not the intended tone of all this, but its very strange.
Again, I've personally never disputed this. So this is directed to the OP and others who may think its an invalid way of RPing (which it isnt).
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Basically, for me, when it comes to socials which aren't inflammatory or heading towards combat...level is just a statistic which has no bearing on the RP, but when it comes to RPing w/ in game content...you better werq for those levels and skills before you run it, others did.
Sure, they'll be Group RP exceptions when a boss the SG are facing has been made my a player and they just need their appearance...and its more text heavy, turn based RP than rushing around a populated map and expecting players to take out targets competently.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I have several characters I barely did any RP with before they hit level 40. Others are below level 40 and I did a lot of RPing with them. Any character development and growth came from RPing, not from leveling. I'm not thinking about the character in a RP context while leveling, but rather how to best level them just so I can get the leveling over with.
It's likely they used alerts to level and therefore didn't learn much about the group or didn't pay attention to the lore about them. Thing is having a level 6 character doesn't mean you don't have anyone higher level or know more about the game beyond Westside. I determine if they put time and effort into their character's backstory and personality by how well they RP, not what level they are. Even when leveling outside of alerts its possible to skip all the mission text, lore pieces, and just go straight to doing objectives. It's what I've been doing after leveling up enough characters. I would certainly do my research for being an [ex]-member even for hero organizations like UNTIL. If I screw up, my character level isn't going to make any difference.
I don't assume they did RP time with level, only the build and even that isn't always true because they could use a leveling build and then retcon it to something else once they hit level 40. That progression can happen without doing in-game content to level. I don't consider the missions as part of any of my character's backstories (except perhaps specific ones) because it would make no sense for numerous reasons otherwise like a bunch of heroes all stopping the same plot by Kevin Poe.
Oh sure the gameplay is level driven, but not RP outside of the stuff I mentioned above. It only feels dumb if you can't ignore level like I do. In my experience with RPing, I would have RP fights with people who create level 6 characters only specifically for that RP and they would be powerful villains. If the RP gone according to character level, the RP would be terrible because the villain would have no chance. It would be a massive waste of time for someone to level up a temporary character.
That doesn't defeat my own argument if that's what you're getting at.
It's been my experience much like how you had different experiences with RPing then me.
How does in-game dueling solve or stop any meta gaming? "Oh, I got beaten in a duel, guess I'll no longer meta game". I mean, what point are you trying to make? What if they're at or above your level and win? Does that justify the meta gaming?
I have plenty of characters at level 40 but it doesn't mean they're even remotely in the same power level RP wise. For example, I have a dragon and a 12-year-old ninja girl. The former is naturally a lot more powerful even if OOC they're somewhat close in overall power. It's one thing to be powerful, but if someone insists on being unbeatable, then I just find that bad RPing.
I would like to mess around with someone trying to godmod me like simply not getting hit by their attacks.
And here we are, coming from two different RPing backgrounds. Yeah, if you want to RP a lair, level does matter to actually be able to get in. Even if you SK someone up in a lair, they're going to have less powers, adv points, specs, and weaker gear unless they're wearing heirloom.
Overall, even with all you said, I simply can't judge a character by level because it's me putting a value on how long they grinded in game without any context to what they done to reach that level.
How is the tone very strange? Is a difference of opinion strange? This actually hasn't happened to me. However, if a RP battle happened and they did said something like "my higher level makes me stronger" then I wouldn't consider that person worth RPing with.
Of course, there are lots of roleplayers who prefer to invent their own fantasy rules independent of the game's mechanics or lore. And that's fine. Everyone is allowed to roleplay as they desire. Just don't require others to conform to your personal preferences. If you want to RP with someone, try conforming to their rules and see where it goes.
Level 40 implies godly super powers? But what about characters who don't even have powers to begin with? Isn't it silly that a level 40 powerless superhero is on par with a level 40 cosmic being? That just sounds like it throws any sort of character power levels and stuff out the window if we go by that logic. Also, what about people who have characters with powers that you can't select in-game like water or plant powers? Does that ruin the immersion too?
Perhaps I sound stubborn, but limiting myself so strictly to game mechanics just gets in the way of my creativity. There are so many powers and abilities than CO could ever hope to have if we're getting into what RP characters can do.
As in a level 40 character that removed everything at the power house with a retcon token? A character like that could be treated as a formerly powerful being that somehow had his abilities stripped away (i.e., by an angry god). Alternatively, it could be roleplayed as a character with vast potential that is waiting to manifest in some form.
You can interpret the meaning of level 40 in lots of creative ways.
Do you want me to answer your other questions? Because it feels like you don't actually care. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
I mean that's basically what this sort of argument boils down to. "I'm super powerful so I get to push you around and you have to take it cause I decided that my character is powerful" but then people tell the person "no, we're not gonna do that, go stuff yourself" and they get upset. It's basically the "I can beat you in a duel so I'm story stronger" argument in reverse, it's "I don't have to beat you in a duel because I wrote in my bio that I'm stronger than you". Both of those people are the same person, and they're both lame ^_^
This is why RP works better with a DM, because when you show up with "Kronos The God Who Commands All Time And Space", the DM will tell you "no, you're not going to play that, go make something sensible" and if you try to argue with them about it the only thing they'll let you play gets weaker and weaker the longer you argue. It's like when I used to play with V:tM groups, and people would show up with 4th generation vampires, thousands of years old with a background three miles long and then got upset because the GMs told them to go roll a fledgling. I mean we all know all they were gonna do was go to bars and try to impress girls with how old and powerful they are u3u wtf kind of thousands year old vampire starts showing off his powers in a bar...
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I just want to add that one of the common reasons for "no level 6" whatever is that it keeps people from jumping into rp groups with an endless array of alts. Having to level up the character a bit (level 10 is what I would choose), means the player had to expend a bit of effort in real life. If the player isn't willing to do that, it's not someone I'd want to rp with. [personal opinion]
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Where did you get the idea I don't care? If I didn't care I wouldn't have made or replied to this thread. Disagreement isn't a lack of care. I just don't see how all this stuff has to be tied to in-game level. It's the one in-game number people pay so much attention too in RP when usually you ignore in-game stats while RPing. I find people that insist on having super powerful characters immature. I say this because they seem like the sort of people who can't stand losing, having someone that has limitations and weaknesses, or just wanting their characters to do whatever they want without anyone else stopping them. I find all powerful characters for the sake of it boring, like the creator had a big ego in making them. I don't have any characters even close to gods or cosmic beings in power. "How powerful can I make someone?" Hasn't applied to me for some reason.
I really hope I never meet any o those sorts of vampires in Caprice or Minefield. If they think how powerful they are is impressive, they'll find that won't work on me. I can see not wanting someone to flood a RP group with a bunch of alts. Getting to level 10 is about an hour or less of work so it really isn't much in stopping someone from bringing in a ton of alts. I have close to 60 characters although many of them are not in any SG. In that case I would just tell them you can only have X amount of characters and perhaps more later if you actually proven yourself.
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Well, that's your preferred style and perception. You've posted your opinion on a public forum...and not in a questioning way...but in a manner which already implies that anyone who does RP the way I sometimes like to RP isn't "true RP" or is in some way sub par to your version of RP...which is incredibly obnoxious.
That's unfortunate for them.
I never implied that this was the case. What I don't like is people who claim to be affiliated with X and become brain dead when asked basic questions ICly.
Also, I think if you wanted to claim you were affiliated with X, you'd put in the time and effort in game, learning their lore and interacting with those groups in game...as well as through source material.
I'm glad to see that you'd do this.
The build comes from and develops via leveling usually, but yes, leveling builds do happen and people tend to flag that as they are leveling and don't typically engage in RP...some do though and craft a story around their 'build change' at level 40.
If you are running missions and not manipulating the NPCs inside to your own ends...I don't know what to tell you.
Kevin Poe doesn't HAVE to be Kevin Poe...it could be someone of your own creation when running the mission ICly, there's a lot of freedom there if you want to mess with it.
(Equally I do get that there's only so many times you can run Serpent Lantern before your characters side eye you
I would like you to read this quote from the angle of someone who plays in a fashion you are not in agreement with and reflect upon it.
Tip:
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Do note, I never said I can't ignore level...my examples come from specific situations which as I stated earlier should not be generalized to all situations.
Great. I do the same on occasion...and I even stated as much earlier.
I don't think its a waste of time personally...it can be fun to map out a build and weave both RP and mechanics into the same thing. For some, if that's too complicated or unnecessary then that's absolutely fine as well.
That's fine. Your experience isn't invalid.
It's typically up to both parties to engage in an in game duel. An 'advantage' to paying attention to mechanics is that you can usually tell if you're going to be the one standing over them or visa versa.
Much like when I spectate BASH or Ren Cen duels, someone talking smack will shut up quick after being slammed down a few times....or rage.
Some RPs do take in game combat into consideration, I don't know about you but if I'm running a mission and I take a big hit out of nowhere and die, in some instances that's taken as a "Ooh, that looked like it hurt! Are you okay?" from my team mates.
Mechanically, I've lost all my HP and I am useless in that moment. RP wise, I may have swallowed a big hit and been knocked away/over/out.
Equally it looks hilarious when someone who is meta gaming gets their pixels handed to them, they likely feel some shame talking big and having to carry themselves home, so to speak.
It may not always work but its an option which I've seen work effectively.
I think that's the same for everyone?
Level can mean a lot of things, it's highly subjective when you look at it from a personal angle. Someone here mentioned levels being likened to security clearance levels or threat levels in CoH...which was a cool thing to imagine or work with.
For me? Level means I have spent time investing in a character and I have crafted a background for them RP wise (in most cases) and I've put effort into all aspects of the character.
I do hope for similar things from others, but I acknowledge and accept that's just not always the case. Where I draw the line is when someone attempts to be needlessly problematic in all situations...but its most annoying when it comes from a very low level character or an obnoxious max level character.
I'm sure you gravitate to like minded people, so you'll never truly have to face that situation.
I can make a judgement on a character based on level because even if they boosted their way...that wasn't free...that shows some desire to invest in the character in question, but this is not the sole basis on which I accept or decline RP from people.
I am far more interested in their ability to communicate ICly and OOCly as well as their background. If you've got VERY bad communication skills...that makes it very challenging to engage fully (and no, I don't mean people who speak or think in another language outside of English, if anything that's sometimes better because there is a strong effort made to use a common language and communicate effectively in it.)
"The meaning of communication is in the response it elicits" <-- this is one the of the presuppositions of Neuro Linguistic Programming. It means exactly what it says.
In this instance, whilst you may have intended to pose a genuine question, it was surrounded in a very condescending manner with the language used...this typically makes people respond in kind and then that muddies the initial intention of the discussion.
A difference of opinion when stated in an appropriate manner is not strange, it can promote interesting discussion. I think in this instance...the way your initial post came across...it was a little rude to those who don't think or RP the way you do. Several statements in your responses suggest that you believe your way of RPing is the only true way and all other ways are "dumb"...which isn't a great way to kick off conversation if you really want information or to explore the other side of the argument.
Doesn't this then loop back to people not being able to stand losing? Equally that person could argue..."I am a higher tier god than you", would you not RP with them because they are stating a 'fact' for them?
Interesting thing to think about...
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^ If I'd seen this before I posted...I wouldn't have bothered explaining so many things.
This is pretty much it.
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I get that the RP is happening in a MMORPG. Naturally the mechanics will play a huge part in how the game operates like how level heavily determines where you can go and what you can do. There are stats other than levels like roles which usually do get accounted for in RPs, but it's just that players are choosing to make level important in a context where game mechanics usually don't matter. That's the issue I have with it. There are unavoidable facts about level like where you can go and it isn't something players are imposing on people. In Caprice or somewhere else, level only matters if someone decides it matters. Now people can RP however they want, sure, but it doesn't mean I can't comment on what I see as flawed when I see bios saying things like "I RP by level. Higher level equals more power". Ultimately, yes, it isn't a wrong way, but a way I find flawed the same way I find godmodding and meta gaming as flawed RPing.
I agree that is very obnoxious. Anytime someone argues along the lines of "true" this or "true" that, I almost always see it as poorly done. It's like they're saying their way is the only "real" or "correct" way. Are people really getting the impression I'm saying that? I can't and won't tell anyone how to spend their time RPing. I just question one specific aspect of RPing I see come up time and time again. From what I could figure out as to why anyone would do that, I couldn't figure out any logical good reasons in my head beyond the game play restrictions that come with levels.
That's what I'm saying. I saw your argument as "if they're level 6, they won't know about the group they claim to be apart of" which I argued your level doesn't matter in that case unless you never actually did the related content or read up on the lore. At one point I created a level 6 VIPER supervillain to use in a RP. Her being level 6 didn't mean I didn't know enough about VIPER lore to RP her being a part of them.
I know people who play as say, villain characters, may often give justifications for why they're seemingly working with the good guys or fighting a group they're supposed to belong too. Often this comes with treating the group as a different group, like swapping around UNTIL and VIPER. Perhaps you're part of a rival gang fighting the New Purple Gang. Perhaps you did the whole thing as a simulation. Maybe you turned from good to evil through any number of reasons.
What? What do you mean read the quote from a different angle? You mean something like "not RPing by level is dumb", basically the opposite of what I said? How does reading it from that angle really change much other than me wanting to counter point that? I think "not ignoring level" might has been meant as in general and not you specifically. I may have been replying to someone else on that one.
That's not to say I never tired leveling into RPing, but in most cases I don't. In one case, someone was less effective and not used to Earth's gravity because she lived on the moon most of her life. So I justified her being weaker that way, but that was a long time ago. Otherwise I probably won't tie leveling to their background.
Now if game mechanics are directly involved in a RP, of course those should direct the course of RP. Like if you're RPing a lair and someone gets knocked out, that should be reflected in the RP itself. If someone god like gets knocked out, they often have to come up with silly excuses as to what happened like "they didn't actually happened", "I was rusty", "they just got a lucky hit", or whatever. Sometimes people are just sore losers if their character can't be the strongest without being challenged and losing on that. I know that sounds harsh, but truth is, there are a lot of younger players in the game still mentally maturing. If they want to treat RP as their own personal power fantasies to do whatever they want, I don't want a part of that.
I'm not familiar with how that worked in CoH since I long missed my chance to play it. It at least sounds like in-game level was tied to narrative purposes in that where in CO it isn't, not in that way at least. I do take issue when people are RPing in such an obnoxious matter. Sometimes it seems IC behavior is an excuse to act however someone wants too. One example of this is someone trying to kill off my gun cat in Caprice because they personally don't like furries. Because I'm sure you can just drop a live grenade in a superhero bar and not have numerous issues result from that. Also some people don't take it very well when your character won't get into a relationship with their own. Something like "my man is so handsome that all the ladies want him", even as a super power, is just something I refuse to accept. RP is at least a two way street and if I don't like their RPing, I don't have to entertain them. They might see that as bad on me, but we all draw lines somewhere. "I suddenly kill your character" is something few will accept.
A lot of my RPing in CO these days have been with one specific SG, so things are done in certain ways. Level was never one of them because some of us in that SG have costume slot characters so leveling them up doesn't help but make tailor changes cost more. We also sometimes create characters just for the sake of a RP or RP arc, deleting them after, so they remain at level 6. There is a leader in the SG I'm in whom English isn't her first language. You couldn't tell from how she types however.
The way I communicate tends to come off very strongly due to how opinionated I am. I honestly don't know if there is much I can do to change that. It seems to be always something I'm not doing entirely correctly with communicating. I have quite the history of getting into straight up arguments with people.
While I do have control over the exact words I use, I can't directly control how people react to them. I can see how calling RPing by level flawed does come off as indirectly saying they're RPing "wrong", however I expressed that is because that's how I feel about it. I don't like to sugarcoat my opinions and viewpoints. I know for sure I didn't say it in a direct nasty way like "you're dumb if you RP by level".
In my case, it isn't about losing to someone, but rather not finding it worth my time to RP with them if they're on a power trip. That could come off to them as me looking like a sore loser. Now them stating they're powerful in itself isn't the problem, but it's often the lengths they go to do that, like using in-game level as a justification. This doesn't really work well if I'm also playing a level 40.
Now it may not seem like it due to my arguments, but I actually have plenty of level 40 characters and way too many hours put into this game than I care to admit. So for the RPing by level people, I'm already at the top.
I think this is literally the only response that was needed o3o the amount of debate in this thread is completely nuts. OP, read Panta's post repeatedly until you understand what it is telling you.
I'll add this: Whatever rules you think others are imposing on you, keep in mind that you are also trying to impose your rules on them. Neither of you is going to budge, no matter how long your forum posts on the topic get, so it's best if you just avoid people who won't RP the way you want ( which is basically what Panta said ).
If you keep saying they're dumb or silly or unfair for trying to make you follow their rules you'll just look like more and more of a hypocrite.
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Your first question is a very simple and easy one to answer: Ego. Most Gods tend to have a chip on the shoulder (a huge on at that). And most, would not understand or like losing their powers, and would demand mortals to help them. But, otherwise, your question this time around was different than your previous, similar, but different. I do not often see Gods in any media that do NOT have a large than life Ego. Now, you used an example of a place I know nothing of, so, that part is a bit unfair for you are using knowledge about something I know nothing about. And after looking it up...I think you used a bad example, if what I'm reading is what you were referring to. But regardless, my point still stands, most Gods have an ego problem and are typically very vocal about being a God (regardless of situation). But, that is going off of what I know from various medias I have seen/read. I have no idea what you yourself know.
And you'd have to realize that mortal common sense means nothing to Gods that have God common sense.
But, beyond that it appears we are on the same page about that overall.
"That's great, but again...its a matter of ingrained perception about what it means to be a level 6 vs what it means to be a level 40.
Level 40 implies that you have progressed in some way or made an investment in the character...from a purely perception point of view when you think about stepping into a game setting like CO.
Keep in mind this is my personal view, and is not to be generalized to every situation. In yours, as long as your level 6 character isn't an a tw*t and interacts well and comes across well...typically level won't factor into it.
It only becomes a factor when you (not you directly but the general you) become obnoxious."
Implication and reality are two different things typically. People need to understand that. But, I see that you basically understand that.
"This unfortunately does nothing to sway my opinion.
You should not try to match an example from a reality that doesn't exist and use that a basis for your counter point in this instance.
The fact is that for some, level does come into it if you are RPing through content and RP whilst you mechanically get through a mission...I'm not carrying a level 6 through a level 40 mission, unless there are very special circumstances.
You saying that its not a true RP mechanic...is dependent on the situation. If it is social...of course, level means naught.
But if we are in Serpent Lantern Elite, Level 40 and 'Marissa the Bountiful' is our only healer at level 16...we are probably going to fail hard without a back up healer and that ruins the RP experience for everyone involved IMO.
So level importance is relative to the situation you fall into as an RPer. If you are a mostly social RPer...level number isn't going to matter to you.
I've got characters which are purely for socials or NPCs...I don't bother to level them...except in one or two instances."
In a fashion, you are actually agreeing with me. Due to what I had later said that is.
"Just say: "Fortunately my physiology allows me to be immune to the poison you put in this water!" then everyone's back on track lmao. (
I did that, guy accused me of god modding...XD
"I'm going to need some clarity on this from your PoV lol. Do you mean that as long as no one challenges your level 40 god without being appropriately leveled...and a god...you'll make exceptions?"
In a fashion, yes. Though, they don't need to be a god, just level 40, I would also strongely suggest they be as well geared as me (I'm not top geared, but, eh). In the end, I'd rather do an rp-duel in such a case. Real duels if I need to knock a fool around for thinking that just their God (level 6) is as strong as a more...experienced...God. In the end, I rarely do duels. RP dueling is what I enjoy more. That tends to be more mentally stimulating than pressing buttons for fights that are 1: Boring due to me one shooting the other, or 2: Boring due to both of us not dying with ten minutes. I rarely have a duel that is number 3: A duel of equal level that is fast.
"Again, I've personally never disputed this. So this is directed to the OP and others who may think its an invalid way of RPing (which it isnt). "
Wasn't actually intending to dispute you, was intending to use your arguments as a way to give the OP (and others) a different view point of different situations.
So much this.
For me?
You can claim to be whatever you want, but unless all you do is stand around RPing in a safe area, then at some point you have to put up or shut up. That means using your powers to play the game.
If you are level 6 then you are dealing with gangsters and guns and if you can not then you have to explain why. You can try to "RP fight" (more on this later) all you want, but the NPC enemies in the game do not respond to that.
"Oh, so you're able to bend reality to your will? Okay then, we'll stay here and fight this Portal Guardian, but with your powers surely you can handle Slug on your own".
Yeah, didn't think so.
The game doesn't let us be all-powerful, so no one should try and claim that.
As far as "RP fighting", no thanks. Not interested in some "I am going to hit you with my death-punch attack, against which there is no defense" or "I am going to use my psychic powers to paralyze you. You can not fight against that" nonsense.
In the comics it's easy to say that not all heroes (or villains) are created equal because the writer has full control.
Here? In the game? You are only one part of the "creative team", with the other parts being your fellow RPers and the game itself. Your character can not just exist as a 10 on a 10 rank power scale because you say so. The game has already decided that that spot belongs to the cosmics and that's pretty much that.
So you have powers? Use them. You want to fight? Then fight.
If you want to argue about something then we can argue. You want to take issue with that gun-toting vigilante "killing" the generic NPC mooks then argue your point, but if you are going to fight them about it then I think that you need to fight, and if they happen to be a level 40 "streel level" vigilante while you are a level 6 "god", then you need to re-think what being a "god" means in this game. Not only at level 6, but all the way up to level 40, just as they should be thinking about what their "guy with a gun" can do to NPCs that are far beyond "street level". I mean, at some point they need to start thinking about exotic ammo at a minimum.
It seems like the OP is coming from a place of "I challenged someone as a level 6 and was told to F off and go level up". I apologize to the OP if that's not the intended tone of all this, but its very strange."
That quote failed, for you OP, I did not say that.
Should have commented on this earlier. This is an example of something that works and does not work. Why? Game mechanics it is fair. But, if a real world, this wouldn't be fair. Politics can and will play in these things, along with other things that power alone cannot do and cannot be translated well enough into game mechanics. Let's take a look at One Punch Man, a mange/anime (I'm sure a lot of you know of it). The story (for those that do not know of it), revolves around Saitama. His strength is basically God class, he defeats all enemies with one punch, for nothing is strong enough to stand up to him. This leads to him being bored. In the beginning he was an unofficial hero. Mainly because he did not know there was an actual association for heroes. So, he went to take the hero test and become a pro hero. The heroes are listed in the form of ranks classes, C, B, A, and S, in order of "weakest" to "strongest". His friend, a cyborg named Genos, also takes the class, and due to his outstanding abilities and how well he did on the written test, he was assigned to S-class. Saitama, who could easily beat ANY of the S-class heroes (something several of them would admit after directly watching Saitama in action) completely beat all the records in the physical exam, but, due to doing poorly in the written exam, he was placed in C-class.
This is a VERY good example of how such ranking systems do not work that well. You can have very skilled and strong characters in a lower level and weaker characters in the top level. An example of the later is also in One Punch Man. The top two heroes are: Blast, number 1 hero in the world, though, he has only been talked about and not actually met yet (unless I am extremely far behind in the manga, I am at the part where they are now attacking the Monster Association), and King, the number 2 hero...who in reality is a coward and really weak. But, due to his very tough and mean looks, and the fact that he lived in the same area as Saitama and got all the credit for Saitama's monster kills before he went pro, people think he is basically the second strongest hero. This is something Saitama finds out actually.
But, yeah, those, while most likely not the norm, are still good examples of why you cannot rely on "levels", "security ranks", "ranks", etc. For things that require the game's mechanics, yes, for normal RP, no.
Well, considering that is not how I RP my god characters, and they actually DO have a good in character reason for being on Earth, this is kind of a moot point. I realize that not everyone can say the same about their God characters though.
No, he is implying "What about my toon that uses archery and has no god like powers yet is level 40? That type of thing. To assume he is talking about a character with no action powers on their action bar is rather asinine.
Spinny, there are two types of RP. One revolves around mechanics, like you described there. The other does not. Which is what lots of people do in video games when they are not out leveling and smashing bad guy faces in to the pavement. As I said before, there is a time and place for everything, and people got to learn and respect that. Just because person A places more weight on game mechanics, if they get involved with someone that does not, they should respect that when they are not using the game mechanics for anything. Cause yes, in my dnd groups, we have punched or kicked each other (and drew unmentionable stuff on the back of their helms), but, considering they were not actual attacking and had no real negative affects, we did not need to roll for anything.
But, otherwise, you are correct about why there is a DM for DnD. When there is no DM though, all parties involved in the RP have to agree (whether verbally or silently) to the same rules that are being used. And, all parties also have to respect the other member's characters. In hindsight though, it might always be better to have a mediator (DM basically) for these things, someone that will rule what is what when needed, even if it doesn't use the game's mechanics.
I actually find playing a God character more challenging than a normal person. Why? Because, in reality, in a reality full of Gods, there would most likely be some sort of universal rules the Gods would be following (otherwise everything would be in ruins due to endless conflict between good and evil gods). I would imagine the rules Gods would have to follow would be far more strict (and punishing) than any of our mortal rules could ever copy. So, playing a God that plays by these rules is far more challenging than one would believe. And in reality, I find people that play gods and push people around because "I'm a God" are just losers. If you want to play a God, do it right, do it in a way that makes sense to all parties involved. There is always more to a character than just their powers and abilities. There is their entire background to think of. Along with thinking about "consequences". Even Gods have to worry about that.
I was primarily talking about RP that does not involve mechanics, like you know, the part where characters are just talking to each other? That is the part where those "Ultra powerful ancient beings" are absolutely the least interesting, and quite often tend to just ruin scenarios for more interesting characters. In a social scenario the "power level" of a being is a factor. If you're talking to "Ultra Mega Cosmic Man" and you're "Lasso Boy", it's absolutely going to effect social interactions between your two characters. There's the expectation that Lasso Boy behaves towards Cosmic Man in a certain way, usually mostly in the mind of the player playing Cosmic Man. When it gets really bad, the player playing Cosmic Man might even start a long drawn out argument about why the way you reacted to them was wrong and that you're not respecting their character's power level enough... have we seen something like that before?
Exactly. Doesn't sound like OP wants to do any of this, he just wants to get his way and call anyone who doesn't play along "flawed". He is not unique among people who want to play stupidly powerful characters in an open setting. A typical scenario is:
Cosmic Man: *pokes Lasso boy in the chest* Beat it chump, I could vaporize you with just a thought.
Lasso Boy: *laughs* You look like a silly clown!
Cosmic Man: *displays his awesome power!*
Lasso Boy: Yawn.
Cosmic Man: (( Excuse me but my character is very intimidating and you need to play along! ))
Lasso Boy: (( Yawn. ))
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In fact, I could be wrong, but doesn’t Champions lore mean that gods can’t directly enter the mortal plane? Don’t they need to use an avatar to stand in for them? If that is true, then if you want to RP the lore to that degree you could easily dismiss any claims of someone being a god. This is just yet another wrench in the whole thing with RPing and where people draw different lines at. Yeah, gods do have a huge ego. I suppose when you have that much power, it's nearly impossible not to be that way. I do wonder how much of the ego is the character being played and how much of it is the player's own ego. Speaking of ego, I'm well aware this whole thread can make it look like I have a big ego myself.
Like I mentioned several times, if you're RPing with game mechanics, than level does matter because level plays a very big part in game mechanics. A level 6 can hardly do any missions. Even if they're sidekicked up they're going to be a lot weaker than someone who is actually level 40. If you're going to RP with game content then being as high a level as possible is good because it means you have access to more things. If you use PvP level and your stats also matter of course. Yeah, that's the thing about gods. Even if you're level 40 with amazing gear, there are still several things that they can't do. They can still have trouble in the QWZ. They still can't beat a cosmic enemy on their own. They can still have trouble against or lose to someone far less powerful narrative wise in PvP. Maybe these are reasons why I have avoided making cosmic beings. It's too easy for someone to challenge you on being all powerful and for you to come up short.
Oh yes, overall power level is a complex thing to measure. It isn't just how physically strong or smart you are. I suppose level in narrative is supposed to be that overall power, that being higher level means stronger, smarter, faster, and what not. Even something like using PnP mechanics in a RP would ensure a much fairer balance of how powerful one character is to another. Game mechanics force you to give exact numbers to things while narrative stuff can often be very vague. Having clearly defined stats in different ways, like Marvel's stat system or the ones used on the Primus Database wiki is a great way to balance characters. Then again, this is a different way of RPing and not everyone wants to bother with numbers. That’s the other thing, being a god isn’t always being all powerful. I’ll be fine with gods that clearly have limitations. In many mythologies, mortals can stand up to and even beat gods. If done right, they could be quite interesting to RP with. However in my case I often see all powerful gods with no weaknesses whatsoever. In fact, you can make powerful characters without them being gods. This is a superhero setting after all. Granted in Champions you don’t quite have characters on par with Superman in terms of overall power level. Even Superman, when well written, is still subjected to human emotions even if he is godlike in power. I can respect something like that far more than someone’s power fantasy in doing whatever they want without objection from other parties involved.
Are you implying I'm the one not respecting power level enough? How much I would respect someone's power level depends entirely on how they go about it. If they try to force it on me, then I won't respect their power level. Even Lasso Boy can do things that Ultra Mega Cosmic Man cannot, like comparing Batman and Superman.
What? Where are you getting the idea that I want to play super powerful characters and force people to play along with it? Haven't I made it clear several times in this thread that I actually don't like RPing with obnoxiously powerful characters? In this case I'm more like Lasso Boy than Cosmic Man. Are you even reading what I'm saying or just making up straw man arguments?
So I probably could have phased this thread a lot better than calling RPing by level flawed. I myself have plenty of level 40 characters I use for RPing. Just because I called RPing by level flawed doesn't mean I'm RPing with low level gods and demanding I be taken seriously.
You actually basically agreed with me overall, so I can accept that. And yeah, in RP not dealing with mechanics, you got to respect characters. But, at the same time, people that play Gods need to realize they cannot just "vaporize" people at will. Now, if what he did was basically create a new ... planet in the sky, and Lasso Boy yawned at that, that could be Lasso Boy being Lasso Boy. Just because a God does something awe inspiring doesn't mean everyone will be awed. So, one could say that Cosmic Man is not respecting Lasso Boy here.
Yes, and no. The Ban, while weakended, is still in effect, but, there is three ways around it. Empowering a Mortal (which means they can speak through and act through the mortal, though, what they can do is limited, but, the mortal can act on their own, giving the God some multitasking ability), creating an Avatar, and the third is to sire a child (which means that a demigod walks on the mortal plane, which also kinda allows the God parent some access, such children are, of course, immortal and free willed).
When it comes to avatars, the strength of the avatar is what determines how long it lasts before the God can no longer sustain it and must rest. Avatars that are roughly Superhuman strength, can last forever. One can think of an Avatar as nothing more than a projection from the God. If one found a God that has an Avatar currently in existence, they would actually find the God in a trance like state. Otherwise, a god can create an avatar with their full god like powers, thought, such an avatar is a huge drain on the god and is short lived.
But, while I have not seen if the ban has been fully lifted or not, it is weakening. So, there could be a point that it is fully lifted...and things will go south quickly for mortals as there are Gods that want vengeance for The Ban.
Yeah, I am reading what you're typing*. Like this that you typed here.
So I responded to it. Seen a lot of "Im super strong!" dopes in open RP settings, and this immediately reminded me of them, and I've seen them here in CO too where it's just... yeah, just the cringiest.
I also responded to other power-level neutral things about your argument, like how in an open RP setting without a GM you just have to find like-minded people and avoid people who play otherwise, and don't resort to calling them "flawed" because that looks I dunno... immature? jerky? compared to those people who are just playing the way they want and didn't change how they were playing just because you wandered into their proximity. I know that going around arguing that other people's way to play are flawed won't necessarily help get you invited to join any of the very closed and very private and unwilling to accept new members RP groups the game has.
Some people prefer to have the in game environment of our perpetual game world be a meaningful aspect of the setting because functionally that is where they exist. There's nothing flawed about that just because it doesn't make sense to you.
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