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Port the reputation system over from STO.

cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
Replace and expand the various stores (Nemesis, etc) with a much easier to understand (imho) reputation system from Star Trek Online.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    What's complicated about 'spend X to buy Y'?
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    What we currently have is simplified system of that.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    What we currently have is simplified system of that.
    Reps in STO used to be simpler.... Long long ago... also back then they were lame and dull. I think the main functiona difference between how they are now in STO and how they work in CO is that in CO they don't have mark > Q conversions.
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  • cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
    What's complicated about 'spend X to buy Y'?

    What's X?
    How do I get X?
    How much X do I need?
    Where do I spend X?

    The Rep system put's it all in (mostly) one spot. I mean I did leave out an easy way to get X...
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    cbob312 wrote: »
    What's X?

    Currency.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    How do I get X?

    Usually by defeating NPCs or completing missions.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    How much X do I need?

    Check the vendors, they're all in one location in RenCen and they list the prices for everything.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    Where do I spend X?

    The vendors I just told you about.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    The Rep system put's it all in (mostly) one spot.

    So does CO. Rencen. Building opposite the powerhouse wheel, and for events a vendor to the left of the powerhouse wheel.​​
  • cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
    That's not one spot, and on top of that I think not being chained to the city center would be another benefit.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    cbob312 wrote: »
    That's not one spot, and on top of that I think not being chained to the city center would be another benefit.

    Oh no, you have to walk ten feet for the event vendor. I mean come on, seriously, that's your gripe?

    What other arbitrary location would you think is better? I mean, with rencen we have teleport devices that drop us right next to the vendors, you wanna make us walk even further than ten feet to get to all of them?​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    As a STO player, I'd rather not see its reputation system infect CO. Currently, CO's system is just "walk up to the shop and buy the thing if you have the currency" which is nice, simple, and straightforward. STO's rep system is a lot more convoluted than that.

    What exactly do you want to see ported over from the STO rep system?
    1. The slow, boring, multi-week period in which you advance your reputation by clicking a bunch of crap daily until you finally unlock everything the shop has to offer?
    2. The reputation project system used to acquire special gear, which is frankly a more convoluted and clunky system of paying all the currencies manually, one at a time by sliders, rather than just clicking the item you want to buy?

    No, I think the current system handles transactions just fine. The only things about the current system that should probably go away (or at least be toned down significantly) are the perk requirements.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    The only things about the current system that should probably go away (or at least be toned down significantly) are the perk requirements.
    *casts Moonstruck on Aesica*
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Nah, the perks get people going to other zones n stuff. I think it's neat.​​
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Nah, the perks get people going to other zones n stuff. I think it's neat.​​
    Yeah, the point is to incentivize things that aren't "ideal" for grinding.
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  • cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    I can pop into STO and run a few 5-15min missions and have what I need to progress that day. Not that there isn't a grind but it's much easier to get 'end game' ready in it with rep gear, traits, and so on.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    cbob312 wrote: »
    I can pop into STO and run a few 5-15min missions and have what I need to progress that day. Not that there isn't a grind but it's much easier to get 'end game' ready in it with rep gear, traits, and so on.

    I can pop into CO and run a few 5-15min missions and progress towards some SCR rewards too. Then if I want to play more, I can do a bunch of other things to progress even more.​​
  • cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
    Man, why are you here?
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    cbob312 wrote: »
    I can pop into STO and run a few 5-15min missions and have what I need to progress that day. Not that there isn't a grind but it's much easier to get 'end game' ready in it with rep gear, traits, and so on.

    I can pop into CO and run a few 5-15min missions and progress towards some SCR rewards too. Then if I want to play more, I can do a bunch of other things to progress even more.​​

    YMMV. If you're talking about QWZ it takes me at least 30 to get through everything. Cosmic runs are usually 20-45m+ for a fast run and hours for a slow one. This is the first time in about a year and a half I've actually had time to sit and do endgame, and observe the times. If it weren't for this one lucky break I'd never get endgame gear ever due to times. Not of course that endgame matters at all(nothing really matters in CO it's just that easy) but yeah for those wanting it I can see the time issues.

    P.S: Before anyone comments, "Just make more time" or something in the similar vein, you can't exactly control RL so that's not always a possibility.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    YMMV. If you're talking about QWZ

    I was actually talking about alert dailies.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    Man, why are you here?

    Do you mean in an existential sense or are you just wondering why I'm here in this thread discussing your idea and criticizing it?​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    cbob312 wrote: »
    I can pop into STO and run a few 5-15min missions and have what I need to progress that day. Not that there isn't a grind but it's much easier to get 'end game' ready in it with rep gear, traits, and so on.
    That doesn't really have anything to do with the reputation system. That's just a question of mission design. It might also indicate a misunderstanding of what 'end game ready' is in CO.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    YMMV. If you're talking about QWZ

    I was actually talking about alert dailies.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    Man, why are you here?

    Do you mean in an existential sense or are you just wondering why I'm here in this thread discussing your idea and criticizing it?​​

    Oh. Yeah then sure
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • cbob312cbob312 Posts: 79 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    YMMV. If you're talking about QWZ

    I was actually talking about alert dailies.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    Man, why are you here?

    Do you mean in an existential sense or are you just wondering why I'm here in this thread discussing your idea and criticizing it?​​

    All I'm getting from him is 'it works for me'. That's not criticism or discussion, that's just fighting for the status quo.

    cbob312 wrote: »
    I can pop into STO and run a few 5-15min missions and have what I need to progress that day. Not that there isn't a grind but it's much easier to get 'end game' ready in it with rep gear, traits, and so on.
    That doesn't really have anything to do with the reputation system. That's just a question of mission design. It might also indicate a misunderstanding of what 'end game ready' is in CO.
    In STO the dailies give marks for the reputation system. That eases you into the end game. I'm casual in both games and doing much better in sto.


    A thing we haven't talked about is the traits you get from the rep system. While very similar to the specialization system in CO it's something else to do once you get to max level, letting us expand or refine our abilities.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    cbob312 wrote: »
    In STO the dailies give marks for the reputation system. That eases you into the end game.
    In CO the dailies give you SCR and Q, which is all you need for end game suitable gear.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    cbob312 wrote: »
    In STO the dailies give marks for the reputation system. That eases you into the end game. I'm casual in both games and doing much better in sto.
    You're missing the fact that STO's rep system is a time gate, where you literally cannot get those shiny reputation impulse engines or whatever until you've completed enough daily projects to reach a high enough rank to unlock them. Sure, there's the hourly project as well, but the rewards from that are so low that it's only going to make a difference if you intend on keeping up with it all day. The daily project is that efficient. Anyhow, once you've done that, only then can you buy them via the convoluted project system (pay each currency manually, wait X seconds, click claim).

    Meanwhile in CO, you just take your SCR (and/or GCR), walk up to the vendor, and buy the thing you want.

    While I'll agree that STO does a far better job at easing players into endgame content, that's more a matter of STO having a better reward design and endgame flow, not the presence of its rep system.
    cbob312 wrote: »
    A thing we haven't talked about is the traits you get from the rep system. While very similar to the specialization system in CO it's something else to do once you get to max level, letting us expand or refine our abilities.
    I'd actually say STO's skill system is more in line with CO's Specializations--both of them are acquired via points each time you level up. They also both have annoying costs associated with resetting them. Rep traits are more of a bonus thing that gives you additional customization without the semi-permanent choices found in skills/specializations. (Since you can set your rep traits as you see fit without cost)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Nah, the perks get people going to other zones n stuff. I think it's neat.​​
    It depends on the requirement. Some are more reasonable than others. I actually wonder if anyone got moonstruck without entering into some sort of mutual farm pact or without repeated alt killing. As in, by playing the event how it was intended. Probably not many because the requirement was too high and the event was too poorly done.

    If I'm required to kill Eido at least once in order to get his shiny costume pieces, that's perfectly understandable. But what is the requirement number actually at?
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    If I'm required to kill Eido at least once in order to get his shiny costume pieces, that's perfectly understandable. But what is the requirement number actually at?
    50 (used to be 10). Perk requirements exist to offset the lowest common denominator effect, where you just go after the easiest source of whatever currency you need and ignore everything else. You can do the same thing with unique components or currencies that only drop from specific places, I think perks were just the easiest way to implement it in CO.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    cbob312 wrote: »
    All I'm getting from him is 'it works for me'. That's not criticism or discussion, that's just fighting for the status quo.

    The status quo isn't bad simply for being the status quo. Change for the sake of change is a bad idea. In this case, far as I can tell, your change makes the system worse and so by comparison I prefer the status quo.
    aesica wrote: »
    I actually wonder if anyone got moonstruck without entering into some sort of mutual farm pact or without repeated alt killing.

    Plenty of people just showed up when we were doing the pvp. We didn't really agree to anything, we just started attacking each other. Towards the end we started cooperating to make sure everyone got what they needed. Was that how the event was intended to be played? Well, they certainly put nothing in place to prevent us from playing it how it was played, and the event has been around for quite a while, so at this point the answer appears to be yes. In fact, I'm not sure of any other way that it could be played... people activated the devices and tried to kill each other. The event gives no real motivation to attempt to deny the other team perk progress, and I'd say that's a good thing. It's designed as an entirely positive experience.

    aesica wrote: »
    If I'm required to kill Eido at least once in order to get his shiny costume pieces, that's perfectly understandable. But what is the requirement number actually at?

    50. Since the intent seems to be that those costume pieces are somewhat exclusive to those willing to go through the work of getting them, that number is reasonable. You may say that that is not reasonable to you, because you want to get the pieces without putting that much effort in, but that's not a matter of reasonableness. The intent is to exclude someone like you from getting it, and you just don't like that. That doesn't make the amount unreasonable, it simply makes it something you're not willing to do. Reasonableness becomes a question of "can somebody reasonably achieve that number?" and the answer is yes, given enough time and determination someone can achieve that number. It's just unfortunate that right now that determination needs to come from a new crew of Eido fighters since the people who have already rolled him into the dirt don't have anything to motivate them.​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    50. Since the intent seems to be that those costume pieces are somewhat exclusive to those willing to go through the work of getting them, that number is reasonable. You may say that that is not reasonable to you, because you want to get the pieces without putting that much effort in, but that's not a matter of reasonableness. The intent is to exclude someone like you from getting it, and you just don't like that. That doesn't make the amount unreasonable, it simply makes it something you're not willing to do. Reasonableness becomes a question of "can somebody reasonably achieve that number?" and the answer is yes, given enough time and determination someone can achieve that number. It's just unfortunate that right now that determination needs to come from a new crew of Eido fighters since the people who have already rolled him into the dirt don't have anything to motivate them.​​
    First, to clarify: I really don't care about Eido's costume pieces all that much--in fact, I think the string cape/shoulders/whatever in particular look rather stupid.

    They do, however, serve as an excellent example of perk gating done poorly. If the bolded part is true, then maybe the dev team needs to have another look at him. If he's That One Boss, then maybe it's time to tone him down a bit so people are more willing to include him in their cosmic killing sprees instead of skipping him in favor of the more farm-friendly ones.

    Remember, this game is pretty small in terms of overall population. There probably won't ever be "a new crew of Eido fighters," so the ball's in the devs' court on this one. And no, adding more "you need to kill him X times to get Y unlocks or currency or whatever" isn't the answer. As long as the fight is an unpleasant shitshow, the endgame folks will farm him until they get theirs, then put him on ignore again.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Part of the problem is that bugs have increased Eido's difficulty to enough that runs are probably going to fail even if a reasonable population of veterans are at the fight.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    aesica wrote: »
    There probably won't ever be "a new crew of Eido fighters," so the ball's in the devs' court on this one.

    ^ Basically this. The devs know there isn't ever going to be another group interested in Eido, so they're leaving him in his current state because they know that we were steamrolling the previous state, which would get boring quickly. In his current state he at least represents something to beat, a challenge. That's kind of what he was meant to be, so the fact that he was quickly becoming just another cosmic on farm status was an unintended result. He's meant to be lurking out there in the warzone, making us sweat whenever we think of fighting him.

    Basically, the people who aren't part of that group are wasting their time trying to get it changed. You're not the audience, so move on. He'll never be as easy as you want. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean as "well designed" as you want ;)​​
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    Just go and choke on a giant sized bag of dicks Foxi. I had something more elegant written, but the words and effort would just be wasted on you.

    We ARE part of the audience. We DESERVE to get a chance at the victories. We HAVE the right to ask the devs at least fix their mistakes. So YOU move on you smug little **** eater.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    ^ Basically this. The devs know there isn't ever going to be another group interested in Eido, so they're leaving him in his current state because they know that we were steamrolling the previous state, which would get boring quickly.
    This point fails when you consider that people are steamrolling the other cosmics and will continue to do so until the goal posts get moved. (Which, I should add, is not how this kind of thing is typically done)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    In his current state he at least represents something to beat, a challenge. That's kind of what he was meant to be, so the fact that he was quickly becoming just another cosmic on farm status was an unintended result. He's meant to be lurking out there in the warzone, making us sweat whenever we think of fighting him.
    I doubt that. If he was intended to be something to beat, there'd be more of a lasting incentive to fight him and bugs would be corrected. I hate to break it to you, but the normal cycle of bosses in normal MMOs is "hard at first, easier as power creep and experience with the encounter takes over. Surely you've heard the term "progression" in relation to endgame in MMOs?

    CO seems to have gone in the opposite direction for this particular encounter, which is unfortunate, because now it's just a thing in the game nobody bothers with. In short, it was a waste of developer time and resources, and will continue to be so until its bugs are corrected.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Basically, the people who aren't part of that group are wasting their time trying to get it changed. You're not the audience, so move on. He'll never be as easy as you want. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean as "well designed" as you want ;)​​
    You can troll it however you want, but when nobody is doing a particular piece of content despite it being the most recent piece of endgame content, then there's something wrong. Contrary to whatever you believe, developers don't generally make content intended for the minority of the playerbase, especially when that content is meant as the feature of a quasi-expansion. This is especially true when their development resources are limited.

    Fixing its bugs and getting it to a point where people are willing to regularly participate in it again should be a much higher priority than it seems to be.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    aesica wrote: »
    There probably won't ever be "a new crew of Eido fighters," so the ball's in the devs' court on this one.

    ^ Basically this. The devs know there isn't ever going to be another group interested in Eido, so they're leaving him in his current state because they know that we were steamrolling the previous state, which would get boring quickly. In his current state he at least represents something to beat, a challenge. That's kind of what he was meant to be, so the fact that he was quickly becoming just another cosmic on farm status was an unintended result. He's meant to be lurking out there in the warzone, making us sweat whenever we think of fighting him.

    Basically, the people who aren't part of that group are wasting their time trying to get it changed. You're not the audience, so move on. He'll never be as easy as you want. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean as "well designed" as you want ;)​​

    But then you just catch-22'd yourself. If no one new's going to run it and if the audience who DID run it were the only ones really running it to begin with stopped, you see the fallacy here? Basically no one's going to do it. Which again, is wasted resources, first OV, now this. Disappointing.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    ^ Basically this. The devs know there isn't ever going to be another group interested in Eido, so they're leaving him in his current state because they know that we were steamrolling the previous state, which would get boring quickly.
    This point fails when you consider that people are steamrolling the other cosmics and will continue to do so until the goal posts get moved. (Which, I should add, is not how this kind of thing is typically done)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    In his current state he at least represents something to beat, a challenge. That's kind of what he was meant to be, so the fact that he was quickly becoming just another cosmic on farm status was an unintended result. He's meant to be lurking out there in the warzone, making us sweat whenever we think of fighting him.
    I doubt that. If he was intended to be something to beat, there'd be more of a lasting incentive to fight him and bugs would be corrected. I hate to break it to you, but the normal cycle of bosses in normal MMOs is "hard at first, easier as power creep and experience with the encounter takes over. Surely you've heard the term "progression" in relation to endgame in MMOs?

    CO seems to have gone in the opposite direction for this particular encounter, which is unfortunate, because now it's just a thing in the game nobody bothers with. In short, it was a waste of developer time and resources, and will continue to be so until its bugs are corrected.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Basically, the people who aren't part of that group are wasting their time trying to get it changed. You're not the audience, so move on. He'll never be as easy as you want. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean as "well designed" as you want ;)​​
    You can troll it however you want, but when nobody is doing a particular piece of content despite it being the most recent piece of endgame content, then there's something wrong. Contrary to whatever you believe, developers don't generally make content intended for the minority of the playerbase, especially when that content is meant as the feature of a quasi-expansion. This is especially true when their development resources are limited.

    Fixing its bugs and getting it to a point where people are willing to regularly participate in it again should be a much higher priority than it seems to be.

    I'm surprised it's been broken for over a year. I'll check back in maybe another year and see if it's still broken. If it is, it's officially abandoned content.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    CO seems to have gone in the opposite direction for this particular encounter, which is unfortunate, because now it's just a thing in the game nobody bothers with.

    I mean, we did him a week ago. You wouldn't know that since you're not part of that crowd.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    I'm surprised it's been broken for over a year.
    It hasn't been. The red orb bug dates back to December, the green orb bug (which is what actually stopped Eido runs) was a couple months ago.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 766 Arc User
    Well, we tried him a week ago, and it failed horribly; haha.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    I think I was there for that one. It ran until about 4 minutes on the clock, and was supposedly started prematurely by someone walking too close to Eido. IIRC it failed because eventually Eido's attacks would start overlapping too much for the group to compensate.

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    The thing about Eido is that most of his tricks (greens, reds, yellows) are basically dps tests, and if you screw up one of them, the next one becomes harder because the first mistake killed a bunch of your dps. This tends to result in cascading failures.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    See when most of the population says something is impossible, we have it on farm a week later thanks to the elites. But when the elites say something is impossible they put a lot of work into convincing themselves of that, so it takes much longer to break through that belief and attain victory. Even when it comes to self-fulfilling prophecy the elites are better at it!​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Eido's not impossible. It just requires better dps than we can regularly arrange for
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Eido's not impossible. It just requires better dps than we can regularly arrange for

    And that is the challenge that has been laid out before us o3o/


    I guess it's just unfortunate that everyone who could do that dps already has their 50 eido kills.​​
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    Yes but you got all those kills when he wasn't broken. So it sort of doesn't count for this little discussion. Thank you, there's the door. o3o
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    It counts for me being able to get the things the perk is needed for u3u given that I can take or leave the discussion.​​
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    There's the door. Thank you! Don't come again! =D
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    category.full.png
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I tried walking through it but all that happened was I smudged my screen.​​
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    keep trying
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    Getting a running start
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I dunno, I'm starting to think forum threads don't actually have doors.​​
  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    I think things should be relating to the OP at this point, things went all spiral downhill after a few comments :'(
    || Main Tank || DPSer || Healer || CCer || Altoholic || @shadowolf505 in game ||
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    WTB Recognition Doors

    With those points...see back on track!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I just don't see the value in adding some sort of reputation system. Right now, you farm the currency, you get the relevant perk, and you get the thing. How do we benefit by adding another bar to fill?​​
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