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Justify Eido becoming harder by updating his rewards

kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
Where's the carrot? So far it's just been stick. 3 sticks to be exact.

Eido has seen a few changes lately that players have had to put in significant effort to adjust to.

1. Eido staying active during red orbs. This is a bug which may as well now be considered a permanent feature of how the fight works since there does not appear to be cause or solution on the horizon.

How players have had to adjust:
- CCers have had to adjust by expecting that Eido may summon Greens or Yellows on top of the Reds.
- Those doing callouts needed to create and watch for a new callout....whether or not Eido will stay active.
- All the players in the fight have had to be more alert for potential Geysers after he does his hold.

It took quite a bit of failing and cajoling to get to the point where we could try enough things to make the adjustments above and get back to a decent expectation of success with the fight.

2. Eido's green orbs have gone from ~31% max mitigation to ~42% max mitigation. So they've been made ~35% harder to take down in 10 secs. This is as of the patch on 4/12: Parse Link Here. Intentional? It's unclear as the devs have not had a chance to look. Presumably this is here to stay as well since we've heard nothing about when it will be looked at.

How players had to adjust:
- Mostly this just means that experienced players who had very high dps characters either have to bring those or the fight will fail
- The above point also means that less experienced players needed to cover for non DPS roles...so learning to tank and heal....CC has not even happened yet. That still depends on 4 people.
- DPS has a lot less room for mistakes. Each DPS player now needs to do 35% more damage to Greens than before. This means more changes to assigned team makeup and pushing for more improvements in the performance of the characters. Also still a work in progress.

We're still adjusting to all this. All those roles have room for improvement: newer tanks and healers learning, more people trying CC, DPS making adjustments to make up the 35% gap. Etc....all fine. Sounds good. But it does mean more failed runs and more patience and optimism from players to keep going.

3. Broader range of possible spawn points for Orbs. Especially the Greens. This was an intentional change which increased the difficulty of the fight. It's in the 5/17 Release Notes. This has made pulling Eido into a corner far less effective as the Greens can now spawn anywhere. So now not only are they 35% tougher, it also takes more time to reach them and you can't affect their configuration.....AFAIK as of now.

How players had to adjust:
- we haven't. It's just exacerbated the difficulties from the two other changes above and is totally unnecessary when the above two changes are taken into account.
- out of the 8 fights I've been in since the change we've won 2. Which would be ok if there was a reason to try so hard...but there is not since the rewards have not changed.

We can do it. We've been close on the last 2 runs. But it's going to take even more adjustments, patience, and hope for being able to reliably do Eido runs long-term.

If there is even one more change that makes Eido more difficult, intentional or not, I think we'll just be done with it and call it a waste of time.

So my suggestion is add better rewards to the fight. It's difficult and fails a lot and that's fine because tackling a worthy challenge is fun. Once people get good at the fight they really tend to enjoy it. There's a learning curve however and especially with the changes listed above it's steeper than ever.

Here's a great thread full of suggestions regarding rewards:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1210584/make-eido-great-again

Personally, Eido's fight is my favorite piece of CO content by far...I don't want be repeatedly frustrated by it for no reason. I'll be taking a break from doing Eido until it gets some new rewards worthy of the challenge of constantly needing to improve.
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Comments

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Heh, yeah, Eido makes the other Cosmics look easy.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Wasn't Eido always meant to be hard though? If anything, he needed to become harder to justify the rewards, not the other way around. Until the changes that brought him into his current state, we were downing him in 4 minutes and joking about it - I don't think he was "as intended" until now, when we actually struggle to beat him.

    As far as "do these rewards justify his difficulty?" that's up to the devs, they set the standard of difficulty=rewards. Before now he was quickly becoming an extra lump of SCR and GCR that we could fairly easily acquire. Now we have to work for that.

    The game's challenge to reward ratio as I see it is basically like this: The more difficulty you are willing to face, the higher the rate of your SCR and GCR acquisition. For example some players don't like the QWZ's difficulty and refuse to go there, so that reduces their total possible gain. Some players refuse to do Eido, so that again reduces their potential gain. Same with TA. So players who are basically only willing to be carried through Cosmics and do their alert dailies have the lowest potential gain. As a player is willing to engage in more difficult content, their potential gain increases.

    So because Eido represents a significant increase in our ability to acquire GCR I believe he was always meant to be as he is now, a real struggle. The rewards justifying this difficulty were always there, but the difficulty justifying the rewards wasn't.

    Do I think Eido is perfect as he is now? I don't believe in perfection.


    NOTE: I do like those "do eido 500 times for a title" rewards tho, I'm just not in favor of any more material rewards.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Wasn't Eido always meant to be hard though?
    It was always meant to be hard, but even at its easiest it was a lot harder than any other cosmic, because it generally takes 20+ minutes to set up, and any team that could achieve a minimum time victory on Eido (which was never a probable outcome) can squish any other cosmic in under 5.

    Also, note that the failure rate mentioned above is ignoring the "not even going to try" rate. It's possible to just scan a couple of channels and figure out whether the critical mass of players to make an Eidolon possible is logged on. The answer is usually 'no'; if you play in less populated hours, the answer is always going to be 'no'. Having content that is simply inaccessible to a lot of players is not ideal.

    Having Eidolon scale more significantly with team size would help with off-hours, but probably results in secret runs.
    Post edited by pantagruel01 on
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    It seems like it has become a fight where if you get everything perfect it goes fast, but if you don't it just fails.
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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    "The game should be a lot more difficult, make it harder! No, harder than that! Harder! Harder!"





    "..... it's too hard, you devs should give us more rewards for you making the game harder :s "


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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Wasn't Eido always meant to be hard though? If anything, he needed to become harder to justify the rewards, not the other way around. Until the changes that brought him into his current state, we were downing him in 4 minutes and joking about it - I don't think he was "as intended" until now, when we actually struggle to beat him.
    I'm not asking for him to be made easier. I'm saying that the rewards now do not justify how hard he is now. Since many of the people who organize the runs or otherwise cover vital roles have the rewards, he needs new ones if they are to continue to bother.

    If it's unimportant for those people to bother and the idea is that others who find the current set of rewards compelling will pick up the slack. Well, we'll see how that goes.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    As far as "do these rewards justify his difficulty?" that's up to the devs, they set the standard of difficulty=rewards.
    Yeah that's why the OP is directed at the devs. Presumably they are also responsible for how the fight has worked for the past 12 months and any changes that have made it more difficult whether intentional or not.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Before now he was quickly becoming an extra lump of SCR and GCR that we could fairly easily acquire.
    Not quite. We've had runs where we took him down in 5-6 mins, but it took us lots of fails to get to that point. And even then, he was already more difficult than other Cosmics due to his unlocking mechanism. So sure he gave more GCR, but still required coordination and private unlocks to be done reliably. That's all besides the point however, which is that if he was also meant to be this difficult a long time ago because his rewards were in such high demand then it's a little for that now. There is no more incentive to put up with a high short-term rate of failure for the promise of long-term gain...the long-term gain has been gained.

    Unless a new group of people that doesn't yet have his old unlocks or is motivated by the additional currency steps up. Maybe the devs are pinning all hopes on that?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Now we have to work for that.
    No we don't have to work for it because we can just do something else which is what happens. GCR stores haven't seen an update in forever. It's not the carrot it used to be. And even for those who really want it a lot, Eido is a terrible source of GCR. If that's what you want, then there are far more guaranteed and easy options which don't involve all that hassle. Why bother organizing and unlocking Eido when you can do 3 TAs in the same amount of time with less people to get more currency?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The game's challenge to reward ratio as I see it is basically like this: The more difficulty you are willing to face, the higher the rate of your SCR and GCR acquisition.
    I don't think GCR/SCR cuts it for Eido because that's not actually how it works. You get more currency by doing easy things faster as opposed to facing bigger challenges.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So because Eido represents a significant increase in our ability to acquire GCR I believe he was always meant to be as he is now, a real struggle. The rewards justifying this difficulty were always there, but the difficulty justifying the rewards wasn't.
    As long as he remains a real struggle he will not represent a significant increase in our ability to gain GCR. He will actually represent a decrease because we can get more GCR without a struggle.

    I think he should remain a struggle and not be brought down to the level of other GCR sources. But to remain a struggle he needs comparable rewards.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    NOTE: I do like those "do eido 500 times for a title" rewards tho, I'm just not in favor of any more material rewards.
    Cool. Would be great to get more ideas for compelling non-material rewards. Not being sarcastic. I actually think that's probably the best route as well.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    kamokami wrote: »
    I'm not asking for him to be made easier.

    Not a single word I typed would indicate that I thought you were.
    kamokami wrote: »
    Not quite. We've had runs where we took him down in 5-6 mins, but it took us lots of fails to get to that point. And even then, he was already more difficult than other Cosmics due to his unlocking mechanism.

    That doesn't make him harder, that just makes him take longer. The OMs aren't particularly difficult. There's a difference between something taking longer and something being more likely to fail. For example, Pyramid Power takes longer than Rad Rumble, but is just as likely to fail, so both are the same difficulty. Currently the OMs are effectively a given - the only thing in doubt is whether we beat eido or not.
    kamokami wrote: »
    No we don't have to work for it because we can just do something else which is what happens.

    Yes, you can go engage in the other sources of those resources, but at some point you will hit a cap. At that point, you either head to Eido, or you decide the extra difficulty is not worth it and accept that you are capped. Just like people who have exausted all easy sources of SCR: if they want some more, they'll either have to engage in somewhat more difficult content, or accept that they are capped and wait a day.

    So yes, if you want that extra amount per day you do have to work for it, because there is no alternative for getting more on that character once you have exhausted all other sources. Max rate of GCR and SCR per day requires Eido completion - several of them in fact. This is why Eido represents a significant potential increase in the rate of GCR gain: because he has his own diminishing rewards.

    GCR gets people access to a lot of rewards, so it being a valuable currency, or "carrot" really isn't debatable. Every day people do things they pretend to hate because of it. That's motivation.
    kamokami wrote: »
    Cool. Would be great to get more ideas for compelling non-material rewards. Not being sarcastic. I actually think that's probably the best route as well.

    I already posted in that thread \o/
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    garbage

    "I like to skip comprehension and overly generalize so that I can post meme responses."

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    spinnytop wrote: »
    Not a single word I typed would indicate that I thought you were.
    Cool.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    That doesn't make him harder, that just makes him take longer. The OMs aren't particularly difficult. There's a difference between something taking longer and something being more likely to fail.
    His unlock mechanism does make him harder. If you take the same group of 30 people who show up to pug a cosmic and they show up to pug his unlocking it will be a lot more likely to fail.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Currently the OMs are effectively a given - the only thing in doubt is whether we beat eido or not.
    When the time and effort is put in to organize his unlocking sure yeah they're a given. With that group of people + organization, anything in the game is a given...even more so than Eido's unlocking. So sure as long that group is online and motivated we're good to go. The concern is that this won't be the case for long.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yes, you can go engage in the other sources of those resources, but at some point you will hit a cap. At that point, you either head to Eido, or you decide the extra difficulty is not worth it and accept that you are capped.
    I don't think that relying on people who've both capped out on GCR and still badly need more is going to be enough to make Eido runs happen.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Just like people who have exausted all easy sources of SCR: if they want some more, they'll either have to engage in somewhat more difficult content, or accept that they are capped and wait a day.
    If they want more badly enough to run that more difficult content. Which they do. Yes. Because, unlike Eido, the difficulty in that scenario matches the demand.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So yes, if you want that extra amount per day you do have to work for it, because there is no alternative for getting more on that character once you have exhausted all other sources.
    I (and I'm assuming others) don't want that extra amount over what I'd get by capping everything else. I'm happy to work very hard for stuff....just not that stuff because I already have it. Especially on characters that can contribute critically to the success of the fight.

    I don't really know many people who come to unlock and fight Eido because they have capped other sources of GCR on their particular character that they bring and are showing up primarily to get a bit more GCR. Do you know a lot of people like that?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Max rate of GCR and SCR per day requires Eido completion - several of them in fact. This is why Eido represents a significant potential increase in the rate of GCR gain: because he has his own diminishing rewards.
    Only for people who are otherwise capped. If only those people showed up then the runs would not happen. It's already hard enough to gather enough people during peak times of the week, let alone the day, without that filter. So then the capped people would get 0 additional GCR no matter how hard they wanted to work for it. And everyone else needs something else to motivate them to show up.

    Personally, for me, that's been the hope that he will get other new rewards.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    GCR gets people access to a lot of rewards, so it being a valuable currency, or "carrot" really isn't debatable.
    It's absolutely debatable when it comes to Eido's difficulty and the relative demand for GCR among the people who unlock him and cover vital roles.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Every day people do things they pretend to hate because of it. That's motivation.
    Which people paired with which things? I am talking about:
    - people = those who unlock him and cover vital roles
    - things = Eido

    If you are also talking about that then no it's not happening every day. My worry is that it won't even happen every week if the rewards stay as they are.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    kamokami wrote: »
    Sass without the class

    There was a point, you ignored it.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    The way I see it the timer on Eido is what makes him the hardest. I've seen many dino runs that would have failed if there'd been a 30 minute timer. Heck, I saw one time where Kiga stayed in phase 2 for over 24 hours!
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    There was a point, you ignored it.
    I do my best to ignore garbage. Nobody asked the devs to make the changes to the Eido fight that were made. 2 of those changes are not even intended....as you would know if you learned to read.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    kamokami wrote: »
    I do my best to ignore garbage.

    But not to spout it.

    kamokami wrote: »
    Nobody asked the devs to make the changes to the Eido fight that were made.

    But you have been a vocal exponent of making the game harder, which the changes to the Eido fight did.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    But not to spout it.
    There's a pot kettle joke here. But I'm finding myself too lazy to post memes.
    But you have been a vocal exponent of making the game harder, which the changes to the Eido fight did.
    The thread is about specific changes to a specific fight...given the title and the content. When I ask for something to be made harder I include reasoning specific to that particular piece of content.

    I have not asked for it regarding Eido, but you are welcome to indulge in your fantasies in a separate thread with a generalized useless title such as "Make the Game Harder".​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    kamokami wrote: »
    There's a pot kettle joke here.

    Heh, it literally was a pot, kettle joke ;)

    kamokami wrote: »
    I have not asked for it regarding Eido,

    I never said you did. But Eido is a part of the game you wanted made more difficult. Now you have even harder content but insist the devs "justify" making it harder.

    kamokami wrote: »
    you are welcome to indulge in your fantasies in a separate thread with a generalized useless title such as "Make the Game Harder".

    Why would I do that? That's your agenda, not mine.




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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    99% of the game is still stupid easy, and Eidolon's relative difficulty would be fine if it wasn't designed as a 30 man fight. However, the basic problem is that damage is quite topheavy. On a recent Eidolon I happened to have a parse of, out of 26 who were basically dps (not tank, cc, or heals) half the damage was done by 8 of them. The run doesn't succeed without those people -- and those people usually do not strongly need GCR. Particularly do not need GCR on their top dps characters, which likely already have max or near-max gear. This means a motivation other than 'more gcr per day' is needed for those people.
  • ph0toncann0nph0toncann0n Posts: 113 Community Moderator
    edited May 2018
    Why would I do that? That's your agenda, not mine.

    'Cause you seem to have felt the need, and a strong urge at that, at the start, to try and make this thread about the idea of the playerbase finding aspects of the game itself being too easy/too hard etc. (Spoiler: That's not the point of this thread. If I need to tell you the point of this thread, then I'm going to be concerned, and will have to tell you to read it again with a clear head.)

    Back on topic. onion-22.gif

    Yeah, I'm gettin' real sick of the Eido changes and not much to show for it. Eido changes intentional or unintentional need to stop until it's worth the hassle of having to unlock him. I'm sorry, but Eidolon's Underwear as a costume drop is not going to make me a happy girl when I have to unlock him and fight a timer to defeat him. (Yes, I've gotten his underwear as a drop. It's worth like 7,000G as a freelance drop. I traded it for a Null Action Figure outside of Nightmare Event and was happy. Cat > Underwear. I'm sorry, it's such a lame costume piece.)

    There might be a suggestions thread, but I'm going to post mine here, anyways. Let's start with me going so far as to say: add in the Throne to Eido already. Fix its bugs, toss it into the gameplay. Maybe make PG's costume parts a drop from Eidolon. Create a much-due Slashing res mod and make it a guaranteed drop from PG and Eidolon, but also add it to the GCR/SCR store. (It would work on Eido, since baby Portal Guardians spawn in the yellow portals. Yeah, PG uses Crushing- and Dimensional-type damage, but he LOOKS like he has scythes for hands, dang it.) Make Dark Speed also drop from Eidolon. Maybe Therakiel's Sword can be rendered a rare drop an Eidolon, as well? And last but not least for suggestions, and I know I'm gonna get some crying over this idea, but let's get some worthwhile gear drops added to Eidolon, like, I don't know, Onslaught Secondaries? A new secondary gear type that's just as good as Onslaught secondaries?

    Like, I'm throwing all these ideas out here, and other players do in the thread Kamo mentioned, so it's not like we're dried up on ideas, here.​​
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    I never said you did. But Eido is a part of the game you wanted made more difficult. Now you have even harder content but insist the devs "justify" making it harder.
    I never asked for the game, as a whole, to be made more difficult either. I have asked for other specific content to be made more difficult but that is outside the scope of this thread which is about Eido's changes and Eido's rewards.

    Yes he's part of the same game just like your costume bug posts are part of the same game. But we're not talking about your costume bug posts in this thread just because they're in the same game.

    Removing context and making sweeping generalizations does't help you out of the garbage heap.
    Why would I do that? That's your agenda, not mine.
    As an authority on my own agendas I can tell you that it's not one of my agendas at all.

    You would do that because you want to apparently talk about it? Not sure and it doesn't matter.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    'Cause you seem to have felt the need, and a strong urge at that, at the start, to try and make this thread about the idea of the playerbase finding aspects of the game itself being too easy/too hard etc. ​​

    Your hyperbole aside, it's entirely in the scope of the topic.

    The title of this thread is "Justify Eido becoming harder by updating his rewards", to me that heavily suggests that the OP is saying they are finding this aspect of the game unjustifiably hard (i.e too hard) compared to the rewards it gives. And goes further to say that if it is made any harder "I think we'll just be done with it and call it a waste of time".

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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    99% of the game is still stupid easy, and Eidolon's relative difficulty would be fine if it wasn't designed as a 30 man fight. However, the basic problem is that damage is quite topheavy. On a recent Eidolon I happened to have a parse of, out of 26 who were basically dps (not tank, cc, or heals) half the damage was done by 8 of them. The run doesn't succeed without those people -- and those people usually do not strongly need GCR. Particularly do not need GCR on their top dps characters, which likely already have max or near-max gear. This means a motivation other than 'more gcr per day' is needed for those people.

    This is quite a point (also made by Kamokami). Despite efforts to teach others how to unlock and run Eidolon, despite the "how-to" threads, successful runs only happen because of a fairly small amount of players. Without them, the runs dry up.

    I'm a player still collecting GCR. When I log on, I usually play for a few hours. If Cosmics are available, I do those. I don't always reach a cap, and don't usually see an Eido group form anymore. If I am on when an Eido run forms, I am likely to go for it. That hasn't happened now, for me, in over a month.

    I think maybe I am the sort of player Kamo is referring to.
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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    99% of the game is still stupid easy, and Eidolon's relative difficulty would be fine if it wasn't designed as a 30 man fight. However, the basic problem is that damage is quite topheavy. On a recent Eidolon I happened to have a parse of, out of 26 who were basically dps (not tank, cc, or heals) half the damage was done by 8 of them. The run doesn't succeed without those people -- and those people usually do not strongly need GCR. Particularly do not need GCR on their top dps characters, which likely already have max or near-max gear. This means a motivation other than 'more gcr per day' is needed for those people.

    This is quite a point (also made by Kamokami). Despite efforts to teach others how to unlock and run Eidolon, despite the "how-to" threads, successful runs only happen because of a fairly small amount of players. Without them, the runs dry up.

    I'm a player still collecting GCR. When I log on, I usually play for a few hours. If Cosmics are available, I do those. I don't always reach a cap, and don't usually see an Eido group form anymore. If I am on when an Eido run forms, I am likely to go for it. That hasn't happened now, for me, in over a month.

    I think maybe I am the sort of player Kamo is referring to.

    I agree with this sentiment here. I get time to play usually during the summer months, and only play until I've completed my dailies/cosmics. I used to join in on Eido runs in the past, but without a certain set of players who've read the guides or whatnot, it ends up being a waste of time.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

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  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,078 Cryptic Developer
    Cleaned up some posts. Keep it tasteful and on topic.​​
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Your hyperbole aside, it's entirely in the scope of the topic.

    The title of this thread is "Justify Eido becoming harder by updating his rewards", to me that heavily suggests that the OP is saying they are finding this aspect of the game unjustifiably hard (i.e too hard) compared to the rewards it gives. And goes further to say that if it is made any harder "I think we'll just be done with it and call it a waste of time".

    Listen I know you got a bone to pick with players who enjoy the tough stuff, but the concept of rewards matching effort required isn't some wild new concept that kamo just made up. It's a pretty well established concept in not only video games but most of life. It seems like you really wanna do a "haha now you know how it feels" thing here, but it's just not happening because that's not the case.

    If you read through the thread with a critical eye you see the real issue: Eido isn't motivating the top players enough, and they're who we need to beat it. Kamo wants the rewards updated not just to make it feel worth it to him, but also to the other top performing players that we need. As Panta pointed out, we're getting a few of them and they're doing way more than the rest of the players that show up. Eido right now isn't like the other cosmics, you actually need the majority of the team to be top performers.

    So this is the actual problem, not the "haha, too hard 4 u?" nonsense you're trying to peddle.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Listen I know you got a bone to pick with players who enjoy the tough stuff

    Then you don't know, I haven't made a disparaging comment on stuff being made "tough" or regarding people enjoying the "tough stuff". Your telepathy is wonky.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    If you read through the thread with a critical eye you see the real issue: Eido isn't motivating the top players enough, and they're who we need to beat it. Kamo wants the rewards updated not just to make it feel worth it to him, but also to the other top performing players that we need. As Panta pointed out, we're getting a few of them and they're doing way more than the rest of the players that show up. Eido right now isn't like the other cosmics, you actually need the majority of the team to be top performers.

    Yeah, I got that. There's also the fact that the OP stated they want the players to gain better stuffz due to their observation that Eido has subsequently been made harder. Maybe "tough stuff" should be a reward itself for the folks that have consistently called for it rather than the already high rewards having to be increased when it's made harder....

    "Wasn't Eido always meant to be hard though? If anything, he needed to become harder to justify the rewards, not the other way around"
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So this is the actual problem, not the "haha, too hard 4 u?" nonsense you're trying to peddle.

    I dunno who that quote in your above comment is from. I didn't say that. Peddle away though.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Maybe "tough stuff" should be a reward itself for the folks that have consistently called for it rather than the already high rewards having to be increased when it's made harder....

    Considering that it's been pointed out that people have been running Eido despite not needing any of the rewards he drops it's pretty clear that this content has been its own reward for some of us and has achieved significant longevity already based simply on the fact that we were so happy to finally get some content on our level.

    However, it's been out a pretty long while now and the novelty has worn off. The fact that the majority of carrots being suggested in the other thread are perks and titles makes it clear that people are asking for very little in regards to increasing the rewards. When I made my posts I was responding to the idea of adding more material rewards like recognition or gear or things of that nature - now that I know it's mainly about perks and titles my posts no longer apply because I see no problem with adding more of those as rewards.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The fact that the majority of carrots being suggested in the other thread are perks and titles makes it clear that people are asking for very little in regards to increasing the rewards. When I made my posts I was responding to the idea of adding more material rewards like recognition or gear or things of that nature - now that I know it's mainly about perks and titles my posts no longer apply because I see no problem with adding more of those as rewards.

    Perks and titles is only one of the eleven suggestions in that other thread. The other ten *are* more material rewards like recognition or gear ot things of that nature.

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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So this is the actual problem, not the "haha, too hard 4 u?" nonsense you're trying to peddle.
    I dunno who that quote in your above comment is from. I didn't say that. Peddle away though.

    Here is what you did say:
    "The game should be a lot more difficult, make it harder! No, harder than that! Harder! Harder!"

    Here is my response:
    I dunno who that quote in your above comment is from. I didn't say that. Peddle away though.

    So you don't like it when someone rehashes what you said and then quotes you in a way that you disagree with? This thread is specifically about Eido's fight and Eido's rewards. Not every piece of content in the game.

    If you want to talk about the game as a whole then do it somewhere else. Nobody here wants to talk to you about that.

    Removing context and meaning to substitute in a ridiculous misrepresentation doesn't add relevancy.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    kamokami wrote: »
    If you want to talk about the game as a whole then do it somewhere else.

    I have stayed on topic. The thread was moderated of off-topic stuff a little while ago and my posts remained. I have also touched on Eido in my posts as well as the wider issue of "tough content". No content exists in a vaccum.

    Chill out.
    kamokami wrote: »
    Nobody here wants to talk to you about that.

    You seem keen to keep bringing up "the game as a whole". I never went on about that really. I seem to be just replying to some rather silly attacks.

    I actually said what I wanted so say regarding this thread a while back, but since then have been responding to comments directed to me. If you have nothing to talk to me about then stop talking to me about it.
    kamokami wrote: »
    Removing context and meaning to substitute in a ridiculous misrepresentation doesn't add relevancy.

    Heed thy words. In your zeal to attack you seem to be taking this way off topic.
    Post edited by themightyzenith on
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    That "wider issue" of tough content should be in it's own thread.
    You seem keen to keep bringing up "the game as a whole". I never went on about that really.

    You did though. It's how you started the whole thing. By misrepresenting an opinion that no one here has about the game...as a whole? If not, then maybe you should have included what your ridiculous quote was about.
    "The game should be a lot more difficult, make it harder! No, harder than that! Harder! Harder!"

    The topic, not just from me but from others too at this point, does seem to have predominantly shifted to teaching you the importance of context. I'm happy to give up on that tough task, the rewards just aren't there.
    Post edited by kamokami on
  • ph0toncann0nph0toncann0n Posts: 113 Community Moderator
    edited May 2018
    I have stayed on topic. The thread was moderated of off-topic stuff a little while ago and my posts remained. I have also touched on Eido in my posts as well as the wider issue of "tough content". No content exists in a vaccum.

    onion-49.gif

    I don't want to sift through the bickering to see what you or anyone has had to say about Eidolon. It's much more efficient to get a point across in one dedicated post instead of fitting it between back-and-forth bickering, as a whole. I haven't been reading the bickering, as it's a waste of everyone's time involved. None of this is productive.

    Bottom line is: It's a freaking MMO. A playerbase will always have complainers that content is too hard/too easy. Been there, done that. It has nothing to do with this topic.

    This forum topic is: Eidolon's been going through a lot of changes lately, some intentional and some unintentional. We would LOVE to hear why these changes are occurring. We are also suggesting that new rewards be added, as the playerbase that has been regularly fighting Eidolon, is bored of Eidolon. It's positive feedback that any Devs of an MMO NEED, in order to keep their players, and by extension, keep a game alive. It's healthy for the game and for the player-to-Dev Team relationships. For the record, I am concerned, like I said I would be, that I had to explain this.

    Please do me a favor, whoever is left using this forum topic as a site to banter back-and-forth, and just not anymore. You can mail each other in-game, or something. I and many other players have waited patiently for the past few months to hear why exactly Eidolon is getting these changes, and nothing to show for it. I'm super excited to see that Kaiserin is paying attention to this topic. That means it's now or never the time to put forth one's ideas and personal feedback about Eidolon himself.

    I and others also desperately want to hear whether or not we can get some rewards added to Eidolon. I'd be happy to test new content. Heck, I'd be happy to keep spouting new ideas for Eidolon like a fountain! But we just need some answers, and we need a topic dedicated to this very specific issue the players are having, to not be filled up with page-after-page of personal vendettas.

    So yeah. In short, we need something to happen before another Eidolon change goes through, or it's not worth trying to fight Eidolon anymore. I am a person who has been on the squad that goes through the process of unlocking Eidolon for about a year now, and fighting him 'til HP or timer hits zero. Each time I go in to fight Eidolon, as of late, I just ask myself, "Why am I doing this, again?" And the person next to me has no idea, either.​​
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  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    Just popping in to agree, the challenge to Eido's fight isn't worth the challenge anymore with these changes. This is coming from someone that needs a majority of the rewards he has to offer, still hasn't completed the 50 victory perk, and still needs the shiny costume pieces in the GCR store. Meanwhile, I only had near or a little over 1,000 kills on each of the gangs for the Thriller perk and I'm working a little bit at a time to complete it.

    You want to know what it's like for a player that isn't in the top tier? I've seen quite a number of announcements that Eido's been unlocked. Have I gone to every single one? No. Because I looked inward and asked "Do I have it in me to take this on?" The answer has frequently been "No."

    I'm not a top tier player, but I would also like to think that I'm not a complete slouch either. I'm trying to improve my toons, I'm trying to learn about other roles, I read the guides once in a while, and sometimes I try tips I catch in chat. I go after every Kiga tomb I can spot even with my melee characters, I try to make sure I'm not catching Qwyji hearts with attacks with AoE effects, I save my AO and Ultimate for Dino's DPS check, and I even figured out which buff symbol to look for when Eido uses the red orbs to determine if I need to go after orbs or stay on Eido.

    And still, sometimes I choose to -not- go to Eido fights when I see the call out.

    Now, I'm not trying to boast, or argue, or curse. I'm not trying to put the spotlight on -me-. I'm another voice in the crowd. This also isn't directly debating any other previous poster, and this isn't even supposed to be logical word-for-word. This is pure sentiment and personal opinion of someone who's not part of that 'essential crowd', and this is meant to be read with that in mind.

    Do the rewards from the Eido fight match the challenge? No, I feel they do not.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I don't think I ever went to Eido for the rewards, I always just went there to help beat him. That is likely why I will continue going there.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    kamokami wrote: »
    The topic, not just from me but from others too at this point, does seem to have predominantly shifted to teaching you the importance of context.

    Only once you learn it yourself can you teach it to others. Try to stay on topic.



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  • ph0toncann0nph0toncann0n Posts: 113 Community Moderator
    I'm not a top tier player, but I would also like to think that I'm not a complete slouch either.

    Anyone has a right to a word on the topic of Eidolon, so long as they've actually fought Eido before. One doesn't have to be a "top-tier player," but it does go to show that it's not just us dedicated endgame players who believe Eido's rewards are not equal to his level of difficulty.​​
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  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    In various other games, "victory" is its' own reward. In this game, like many others, you need something other than just "victory".

    I prefer to do the content here that does net me something useful. Sometimes the quantity/quality/whatever is low and I will still do it because it also has "chance" for some item that I didn't already have, or want for a different character. So, yeah, I'm a Material guy.

    That said, I may play some content because I'm hoping for A, B, C reward chances. Others prefer the X, Y, Z reward chances. Awesome, I like variety.

    All of what Kamo said on this subject is pretty spot on. Eidolon fight was hard to begin with, but through "training" and perseverance, it had become less so, with the experienced players. Even those fights were an extra chore when you had players that were not even trying to do a decent job of it. Eventually, with more and more bugs introduced, the current state of the fight is frustrating.

    I've CCed Eidolon before, but find it too much of a chore in its' current state. And only a handful of players handle the NECESSARY call outs. I'm not one of them.

    Sure, I'd like better incentives for the fight, especially when it comes to gear, emotes, action figures, tokens, etc. New things usually garner much incentive. ("new" does not mean over-powered, either)​​
    .

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Only once you learn it yourself can you teach it to others. Try to stay on topic.

    I'm rubber, you're glue, etc...
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 137 Arc User
    On a more productive less passive aggressive note, I think if the change (or bug, idk anymore.) that he could spawn red orbs then greens/yellows should be fixed/reverted, cause frankly, I preferred it that way than how it is now. Not because it was easier, but because it was harder. Once you got used to seeing blue buff on his bar or not, it was like, 'oh, hey, nevermind.' But back then, it was a mad dash of people running to kill every orb before they die EVERY time, and that was honestly WAY more fun than giving just -one- player a mini heart attack, it gave everyone one!

    But, if that can't be fixed/reverted, then yeah, I'd like rewards. Like, Maybe (uh oh I can feel the anger comin') Eidolon can give a buff that grants bonus GCR/SCR for four hours (50%? 100%? Lol idk my math sucks) on defeat or something. Maybe he gets an increased drop rate on his costume pieces, maybe he can be the first boss to drop R7 core mods (not vehicle mods though please ._.), or heck, maybe he enrages the nightmare chicken and that's where we get some wild gnarly stuff.

    I've felt burnt out by how much more obnoxiously difficult Eidolon's gotten with no explanation of how/why to the point of not wanting to tank/CC/DPS/heal it anymore. I had a LOT of fun failing over and over again with friends to figure him out (I'm looking at you kamokami. ;^)) but now it feels like that all was for nothing, and no one even asked for it. There was already a big chance for runs to fail and now it's just ridiculous. A run's wiped everytime for the past month now, and the winrate is fairly low from what I've seen too.

    Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I want to feel like jumping at tanking him again, but with how things are, it sincerely doesn't feel worth the time.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Personally, I wish they'd drop the whole orb aspect and give us more actual villains to fight. E.g. Eido summons the 3 OMs to do his bidding and the team then has to split up, with some heroes fighting the respanwed OMs in the Shadow Citadel, while others take on Eido ("if only we can keep him at bay long enough for our comrades to join us"). A bit like the Snake Gulch event, but when an OM is defeated it frees those heroes to fight Eido. But, I don't think we'd ever see that drastic an overhaul.
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  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    > @jaazaniah1 said:
    > Personally, I wish they'd drop the whole orb aspect and give us more actual villains to fight. E.g. Eido summons the 3 OMs to do his bidding and the team then has to split up, with some heroes fighting the respanwed OMs in the Shadow Citadel, while others take on Eido ("if only we can keep him at bay long enough for our comrades to join us"). A bit like the Snake Gulch event, but when an OM is defeated it frees those heroes to fight Eido. But, I don't think we'd ever see that drastic an overhaul.

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    What's wrong with orbs?
    Base damage resistance went from +45% to +75%, which means the amount of damage that would take down an orb before now leaves it at half a bar. How many orbs have blown up at half a bar or less recently?
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,069 Arc User
    It's now 75% resistance? Last I heard it was up to 42% (original being 31%).​​
    .

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Base damage resistance went from +45% to +75%, which means the amount of damage that would take down an orb before now leaves it at half a bar. How many orbs have blown up at half a bar or less recently?

    Why is that a reason that they shouldn't be orbs?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    It's now 75% resistance? Last I heard it was up to 42% (original being 31%).​​
    Those correspond to +45% and +75% in cryptic math.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    [Why is that a reason that they shouldn't be orbs?
    I may have misunderstood your question...
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    It's now 75% resistance? Last I heard it was up to 42% (original being 31%).​​

    The now 42% (and before 4/12 being 31%) is mitigation. As in I deal 100 dmg, 42 gets mitigated, orb takes 58 dmg.

    Panta is converting that to resistance in cryptic math terms.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Perks and titles is only one of the eleven suggestions in that other thread. The other ten *are* more material rewards like recognition or gear ot things of that nature.

    Oh hey missed this one.

    If you look at Kamokami's post in that thread, you'll see that they are primarily suggesting perks/titles.
    My post in this thread, the one I'm saying is no longer applicable, was in response to Kamokami and what they said here.

    My post over there even starts like this:
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I like these. Iffy on the DUC and the OV Tokens though, I don't think Eidelon should get more material rewards since his difficulty only recently started justifying the material rewards he was giving.

    And then I contribute several ideas for perk/title rewards.

    I hope I've cleared things up for you.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,510 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    So someone pointed out this topic to me, and it seems I arrive late to the party and missed all the fun :(

    Anywho. Hi, I'm one of those guys that went "Harder, harder, harder" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    I'm actually quite pleased with the challenge eido currently provides.

    Which has no correlation on my satisfaction with the rewards Eido currently provides, despite what some of you folks here have trouble understanding.

    I already have the 50 eido kill perk and thus can buy anything of the crap he drops just by farming SCR/GCR via other ways.
    Hell, I already have all the crap he drops, most of them from before when they dropped from Nemcon.

    I also have been running Cosmics for almost 2 years now, so I have most of the GCR/SCR stuff I need or want, sans new toons which being on the process of gearing up are not fit for Eidolon.

    So this is how things go for me, and I will speak only for me cause I'm not the Madre Teresa that pretends that his utmost priority is that everyone else had a fun and rewarding time.

    Eido Run-> Fails -> I just wasted 1 hour of my time

    Eido Run-> Succeeds, don't get drop-> Sure, I am happy we succeeded, but 12scr/11gcr does not justify the time/effort investment, so I just wasted 1 hour of my time

    Eido Run-> Succeeds, gets a drop-> I can sell it for 2k tops if it's the curtains, but success happens so rarely on top getting drop so rarely that the overall time investment/reward is high on the waste of time territory.

    So while I will participate in every Eido fight that happens while I am online cause the fight is fun, currently I always leave with the after taste that I could have done something a lot more productive and rewarding on that same amount of time. Hell, just the OM unlock is a lot more rewarding than the actual Eido fight netting you around 15-25 SCR in less than 15 minutes with multiple chances at a drop.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Or maybe they need to come out with a completely new difficult fight with new rewards instead of just adding more rewards to the fight we already know and are bored of.

    But I mean hey if you want to just keep farming Eido forever and disagree with me that we should get something new, I respect your opinion Lezard. o3o
  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    lezard21 wrote: »
    -snip-
    I have to agree with this but more on drop issue. You could have the right amount of people to set up and do all the hard work making the eido run a success, but it end up being pointless when they aren't rewarded for their effort, and some leecher that auto attack the whole run get the biggest drop. I don't really care for the reward that Eido offer and I usually do the run to help make it a successful one and it "fun", but it stop being fun when the same leechers kept coming into the run, don't put any effort to it, and get the drop from those runs. It even more discouraging that this was the problem from the same leecher for over a year now. That one leecher mean one less player that actually wants to do Eido to come in and help and one more player to scale the orbs. Trying to do current Eido with this kind of problem isn't really helping at all considering all roles have to put more effort just to kill Eido.
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