Request: A Comprehensive threatparser comparisson.

diggot · May 2018

This would most likely be a huge project and undertaking to complete, but it would be
a great assett and also help silence the talk about certain powers being above the rest
when it comes to building threat.

If anyone feels like they have the knowledge AND time to take on this monumental task
to build a spreadsheet with numbers and FACTS, instead of just unbased claims,
i would suggest having each of the most used powers with varying numbers of confronts.

Devour Essence, Haymaker, TGM, Annihilate, Dragon's Wrath, Dragon's Bite, etc etc.

hasukurobi · May 2018

Looking for what exactly? How much threat each one generates or how much damage they generate? Because besides having or not having "Challenge" I am pretty sure the amount of Threat will be = to their damage dealing power. The only attack I can think of that generates more threat on its own is Defensive Combo.

diggot · May 2018

Pretty much like i said in the OP, give up a shart over how much threat each of the more
popular powers out there that people uses as main threabuilders produce with and without confronts.

spinnytop · May 2018

What hasu said is pretty much correct - other than a scant few cases powers deal threat via their damage and threat advantages hence that information is already available. You don't need a threat parser, you can just use a dps parser. This thread will help you set it up: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1209292/parser-usage-guide

pantagruel01 · May 2018

There's additional effects that increase threat, but they're all pretty much something you can apply equally well regardless of the primary attack you're using, as long as your primary attack has Challenge.

spinnytop · May 2018

diggot wrote: »

also help silence the talk about certain powers being above the rest
when it comes to building threat.

Also, this will never happen. You can publish this information in as much detail as you want, but the moment some tank loses threat to another tank there's a chance they'll claim the other tank is using something OP.

kamokami · May 2018

Based on lots of parsing and some tests I've made an approximate formula for calculating Threat per Second as a function of DPS output.

Threat per Second =
[ (DPS+Challenge) x (1+ssThreatBonus total+powerThreatBonusTotal) x (1+roleBonus) ] + baseDPS*confrontBonusTotal

DPS = damage dealt per second after accounting for target's mitigation

Challenge = threat per second applied by challenge...primary challenge applies 500 TPS. Secondary challenge applies 250 TPS.

ssThreatBonus = threat buffs from superstats, find these by mousing over them in your char sheet.....tank role characters get +threat from SS, dps and support role characters get -threat from SS, hybrid role characters don't have get a threat buff or discount.

powerThreatBonus = these are modifiers to threat applied by powers....CoPD for example.

roleBonus = Tank role provides increased threat. Support role provides lowered threat. DPS and hybrid roles do not impact threat directly.

baseDPS = damage dealt per second pre-mitigation

confrontBonus = confronts work off of base damage, not final dps. So their bonus is multiplied by your baseDPS. If you have 2 r9 Confronts (35% each) then this would be 0.35+0.35 = 0.7

Disclaimer: the game does not log threat directly in the combatlog files so the formula above is an educated guess. Healing also generates threat. It's not clear how much threat each point of healing generates relative to each point of damage dealt and it's been purposefully left out of the above formula.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

Interesting. You think the 10% bonus for tank role is a separate multiplier from the tank superstat modifier? I always assumed it was the same layer. What powers apply a threat bonus other than CoPD and that targeting device?

The special threat bonus from Defensive Combo is probably added to its damage, in the same place as challenge. Also, Defender gloves count as a 10% Confront.

markhawkman · May 2018

So how do you calculate the threat you generate from healing passives? Every time I take Phantasma into StE I'm an aggro magnet, and my healing aura is the only reason I can think of for enemies to target me. but after a while, practically every enemy on the map is trying to kill me even though I'm just standing there blocking.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

markhawkman wrote: »

So how do you calculate the threat you generate from healing passives? Every time I take Phantasma into StE I'm an aggro magnet, and my healing aura is the only reason I can think of for enemies to target me. but after a while, practically every enemy on the map is trying to kill me even though I'm just standing there blocking.

Yes, it's your healing aura. The big problem is that healing is global threat. It doesn't matter how low your threat multiple is if no-one else is applying any threat at all to that target.

spinnytop · May 2018

Didn't I hear something about healing threat being 80%? As in, 100 healing = 80 threat.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

Didn't I hear something about healing threat being 80%? As in, 100 healing = 80 threat.

I've heard that number, but have no way of confirming its truth.

hasukurobi · May 2018

There are two big issues for healers.

1) Healing Auras generate massive threat because they are counted as healing even if they heal nothing. So before anyone else can generate threat you will unless you hang way back.

2) Over healing. Any time you "heal over the maximum HP of the target" it counts for a LOT of threat. This stacks with the healing aura to cause some serious threat.

Even still usually any worthwhile tank should take the threat off you soon. Just remember to block and if the tank is Melee feel free to walk your attackers over to the Tank.

pwestolemyname · May 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

Didn't I hear something about healing threat being 80%? As in, 100 healing = 80 threat.

I have heard this number, as well.

As far as healing aura threat, does it generate threat for EACH target it heals? For example, if it heals 5 targets for 50 HP, is that the same as 250 heal-threat or 50 heal-threat?

Also, does heal-threat build even if no one needs healing?

markhawkman · May 2018

pwestolemyname wrote: »

spinnytop wrote: »

Didn't I hear something about healing threat being 80%? As in, 100 healing = 80 threat.

I have heard this number, as well.

As far as healing aura threat, does it generate threat for EACH target it heals? For example, if it heals 5 targets for 50 HP, is that the same as 250 heal-threat or 50 heal-threat?

Also, does heal-threat build even if no one needs healing?

ell, based on what was posted above, yes, and yes. So a heal aura healing 5 people for 200 each is (200*5)*.8 = 800 threat each time it ticks?

Suddenly heal/tank sounds reasonable.

hasukurobi · May 2018

pwestolemyname wrote: »

spinnytop wrote: »

Didn't I hear something about healing threat being 80%? As in, 100 healing = 80 threat.

I have heard this number, as well.

As far as healing aura threat, does it generate threat for EACH target it heals? For example, if it heals 5 targets for 50 HP, is that the same as 250 heal-threat or 50 heal-threat?

Also, does heal-threat build even if no one needs healing?

It is counted on each thing it heals (which can be as much as 50 things I believe) and because it is generally "Over Healing" due to nothing needing healing it generates a LOT of initial threat.

The main thing here though is that healing threat of this sort does not seem to stack up. That is: You get that initial big threat but it falls off before the next burst of healing unless you are constantly Over Healing things with a power. So unlike tanking threat builders it will not linger very long or build up as high. So having a Tank-Healer is not really viable once people start using taunts and such.

spinnytop · May 2018

Well tank viability isn't determined by your ability to out-threat other tanks, so if other people are using taunts then that means tanking is already taken care of or dps are being dumb. In the case of tanking already being taken care of a heal/tank is a wonderful thing because once they lose aggro they can immediately switch to healing people so their usefulness never diminishes - unlike a specialized tank who loses aggro and then just becomes a low-performing dps ( or a soak tank in a handful of situations, which the heal/tank could also do while continuing to provide healing ).

warcanch · May 2018

Something sounds off about the "threat per target" aura.

For instance, at Kiga, 1 healer with Med Nanites alone would potentially be out-aggroing any tank(?), right? 20 (players) x 400 health (around that for Med Nanites) per tick every 3 seconds is 8000x.8= 6400 threat. Then, add in Sentinel aura and any other active healing and this could be a monster amount of threat.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

warcanch wrote: »

Something sounds off about the "threat per target" aura.

For instance, at Kiga, 1 healer with Med Nanites alone would potentially be out-aggroing any tank(?), right? 20 (players) x 400 health (around that for Med Nanites) per tick every 3 seconds is 8000x.8= 6400 threat. Then, add in Sentinel aura and any other active healing and this could be a monster amount of threat.

Well, there's considerable threat reduction for support role, but yeah, I'm not convinced the threat is actually 80%.

spinnytop · May 2018

warcanch wrote: »

Something sounds off about the "threat per target" aura.

For instance, at Kiga, 1 healer with Med Nanites alone would potentially be out-aggroing any tank(?), right? 20 (players) x 400 health (around that for Med Nanites) per tick every 3 seconds is 8000x.8= 6400 threat. Then, add in Sentinel aura and any other active healing and this could be a monster amount of threat.

Minus ~37% for super stats and then lowered down to 90% for role we're down to about 3600, which would only be about 1200 threat per second. I'm guessing tanks can outpace that pretty handily ( Challenge alone is already 500 tps, 750 if they're applying both kinds ), dps too ( a 3000 dps would be throwing out ~2000 tps ). Once you consider everything effecting a healer's threat, it stops being so monster. Even at 1:1 it wouldn't be so high.

warcanch · May 2018

Ok. I thought there had to be more to the equation.

hasukurobi · May 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

Well tank viability isn't determined by your ability to out-threat other tanks, so if other people are using taunts then that means tanking is already taken care of or dps are being dumb. In the case of tanking already being taken care of a heal/tank is a wonderful thing because once they lose aggro they can immediately switch to healing people so their usefulness never diminishes - unlike a specialized tank who loses aggro and then just becomes a low-performing dps ( or a soak tank in a handful of situations, which the heal/tank could also do while continuing to provide healing ).

In this context tank viability actually IS determined by your ability to out-threat other tanks. We are talking about Aggro here not surviveability. If you cannot hold Aggro you are not much use as a Tank.

As for having tough Healers I would generally recommend all healers try to be rather tough.

spinnytop · May 2018

hasukurobi wrote: »

In this context tank viability actually IS determined by your ability to out-threat other tanks.

Nope. Even if we're just looking at threat, tank viability is still only determined by your ability to out-threat dps and healers. This is because viability is based on what you need to do, and you don't ever need to out-threat another tank. So long as they can stay ahead of the dps and healers a tank is viable in regards to threat.

hasukurobi wrote: »

As for having tough Healers I would generally recommend all healers try to be rather tough.

I would generally recommend healers make their auras as strong as possible rather than focusing on toughness, since that benefits the group more and support characters are generally more concerned about that. If a healer goes down they have a self-rez to deal with that ( or at least they should ).

My healer is still a healer, with a full presence set and an aura. They have a separate set of gear and a second passive for tanking endeavors.

diggot · May 2018

The reason i would like this to happen, is that i am pretty sure that some powers are
far superior in threat than others. Some powers needs full charge to gain max potential threat
while other powers that doens't require charge, simply does vastly superior threat,
which is further increased by confronts.

And in this case, i would love to be proven wrong, by actual numbers.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

diggot wrote: »

The reason i would like this to happen, is that i am pretty sure that some powers are
far superior in threat than others. Some powers needs full charge to gain max potential threat
while other powers that doens't require charge, simply does vastly superior threat,
which is further increased by confronts.

And in this case, i would love to be proven wrong, by actual numbers.

Threat is not directly logged anywhere in game, so actual numbers are hard to come by. The only power I know of where charging vs tapping makes a large threat difference is haymaker, because its damage bonus vs knock-immune target scales with charge time, and that's visible in its damage.

diggot · May 2018

Yes but Haymaker can only be fully charged on 1 cosmic, Kiga.
Ape can 1shot any tank that isn't blocking, hits for 20k isn't unusual from the ape.
Dino is impossible to get full Haymakers on.. except during DPS-check.

Now you "Can" fully charge Haymaker on Ape, but it's risky.
(I've gotten 1shotted by ape while using MD for 28k dmg when not blocking).

spinnytop · May 2018

diggot wrote: »

And in this case, i would love to be proven wrong, by actual numbers.

Well as has been pointed out, those numbers are already in the game. Just look at how much damage something does. The highest damage powers would also be the highest threat generators - the only thing that would change that would be if those powers have Challenge! available, and the amount of threat generated by Challenge! is also displayed.

What you're asking for is already available.

If mahoff happens to notice this thread I'm sure he could provide some real information about haymaker and it's usage in tanking cosmics.

If your question is: Are short charge time or tap powers easier to use in a situation where you have a limited time window between having to block?

The answer is yes.

oyo32 · May 2018

Haymaker is perfectly fine for tanking cosmics with (not to mention it is still very good outside of cosmics as well). Due to its longer charging time, there is sort of a "learning curve" to using it to its max potential against Ape and Dino. It's all about getting used to/learning that charge time, and recognizing when you get an opportunity to unleash a full charge. For example, you can start charging a Haymaker right after you successfully block Ape's roar hold attack and usually be able to get a full charge before he starts with his next attack. Aura of Arcane Clarity can also be a godsend to Haymaker users, allowing you to get full charges (or close to full charges) where you otherwise can't, but obviously you won't always have that.

However, it's not absolutely necessary to be constantly getting full charges against Ape/Dino to hold aggro. Partial charges and taps can work just fine, and once again it boils down to learning what you get away with and what you can't. Personally I find using Haymaker against Ape/Dino fun as it adds a little bit of a challenge to it.

The amount of damage you need to do as a tank is enough to hold aggro over the DPS and Healers. So long as you can do that and stay alive while doing so, you're doing your job great. Generally, non-tanks don't care who has the aggro so long as A.) It's not them and B.) They can stay alive while holding it. Hell, most tanks don't really care either.

Not sure where this notion of "if you can't hold aggro better than other tanks, your tank isn't viable" is coming from. I imagine most people would rather want a reliable low-damage tank who can hold aggro over DPS/Support than someone who plays risky trying to maximize their DPS in an attempt to hold it from other tanks.

tl;dr-
Haymaker is fine for tanking cosmics with, it just has a bit of "learning curve" compared to other powers. You only need to do enough damage to keep the bosses away from DPS/Support.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

oyo32 wrote: »

Hell, most tanks don't really care either.

Debatable, plenty of tanks are competitive, but as long as the person with aggro isn't messing up it doesn't matter.

markhawkman · May 2018

diggot wrote: »

Yes but Haymaker can only be fully charged on 1 cosmic, Kiga.
Ape can 1shot any tank that isn't blocking, hits for 20k isn't unusual from the ape.
Dino is impossible to get full Haymakers on.. except during DPS-check.

Now you "Can" fully charge Haymaker on Ape, but it's risky.
(I've gotten 1shotted by ape while using MD for 28k dmg when not blocking).

Masterful dodge? And people say Regen tanks are hard.... Tanya is a regen tank with around 13k health and often survives unblocked hits when soak tanking.

warcanch wrote: »

Something sounds off about the "threat per target" aura.

For instance, at Kiga, 1 healer with Med Nanites alone would potentially be out-aggroing any tank(?), right? 20 (players) x 400 health (around that for Med Nanites) per tick every 3 seconds is 8000x.8= 6400 threat. Then, add in Sentinel aura and any other active healing and this could be a monster amount of threat.

Ever see Kigatilik turn at random and blast a healer? I have!

pantagruel01 · May 2018

markhawkman wrote: »

Ever see Kigatilik turn at random and blast a healer? I have!

Not unless tank dies?

leuchadegoutiere · May 2018

Unless something is broken, threat in CO is all about DPS ^^ It's proportionnal to it. So it's simple, "powers above other" are just the ones which whom you achieve the best DPS.

markhawkman · May 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

Ever see Kigatilik turn at random and blast a healer? I have!

Not unless tank dies?

If the tank dies, he stays blasting at the DPS and healers. This is when he turns, fires ONE attack at either a DPS or healer, then goes back to attacking the tank. I think it's a matter of out-aggroing the tank. Then the guy dies and the tank is back to primary aggro target.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

markhawkman wrote: »

This is when he turns, fires ONE attack at either a DPS or healer, then goes back to attacking the tank.

I've never seen it happen for a healer, though I've seen it plenty for dps (and he actually turns and attacks until the target dies). What usually snipes healers is if dogs get out of control.

markhawkman · May 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

This is when he turns, fires ONE attack at either a DPS or healer, then goes back to attacking the tank.

I've never seen it happen for a healer, though I've seen it plenty for dps (and he actually turns and attacks until the target dies). What usually snipes healers is if dogs get out of control.

Ah, what I'm thinking of is usually just a single attack because the target dies the first attack... and a few people standing next to them. Maybe the healers were just collateral damage?

pantagruel01 · May 2018

Well, if the cc loses control and a dog lunges, their lunge is glitched so they don't actually move, all that happens is that the healer takes 15,000 damage or so from nowhere.

markhawkman · May 2018

def not that. What I'm thinking of you SEE Kiga turn just long enough to fire a single ice bolt into the DPS/healers

kamokami · May 2018

Healers might get blasted from the AoE of Kigas blast but they're not the ones pulling aggro. The cosmic's target is generally a dps character or a hybrid/tank role char in the dps pile.

Healer threat is generally too low to matter in cosmic fights. I'm not sure where people got the idea that overhealing generates threat... there is no evidence for that.

At dino, when baby spawns it will often target a healer if there is a heal tick that occurs before a dmg tick from the baby tank hits it. Even if the tank runs a 0.5 sec maintain as baby spawns, if a healer's aura heals someone in between those ticks, before the tank has hit it, then baby will aggro the healer.

However it only takes one or two hits from the tank to permanently out-threat the healer, which goes to show how little threat from heals matters.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

kamokami wrote: »

However it only takes one or two hits from the tank to permanently out-threat the healer, which goes to show how little threat from heals matters.

A baby tank can usually hold aggro forever with a primus spark shield. This means a total outgoing base damage of 15% of received damage, which after role adjustment and confronts generally means actual outgoing threat 20-30% of received damage.

A healer who is healing the baby tank, and doing nothing else, will generate healing equal to the baby's damage. Since such a healer does not out-threat the baby tank, that caps threat from healing at maybe 20% of the amount healed.

markhawkman · May 2018

If I'm doing BT I drop a fire patch so baby gets damage from flame patch before he has time to blink.

Request: A Comprehensive threatparser comparisson.

Comments