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How much CON for a character without a CON stat

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,346 Arc User

    I am happy to see my thread is still alive. As I said in my original post. I want to know, by MOD or by GEAR how much CON/HEALTH to give a character who does not have CON as a primary or secondary stat and wants to avoid being taken out in one hit.

    Depends what you want to avoid being taken out in one hit by. With proper positioning and a boss who's being tanked by someone else, there's not much that can't be survived with a ranked block and base hit points.
  • edited March 2018
    When it comes to how much durability to get as a non-tank, it depends a lot on what kind of content you're going to be doing. At cosmics, you can get by with surprisingly little, simply because it's mostly about blocking (Con won't save you if you're not blocking, and if you're blocking you don't really need Con).

    If you're doing Rampage Gravitar, on the other hand...Yeah, you need a lot of HP and Def for that one if you don't have a good healer with you.

    Really, though, if your concern is to only not get killed in ONE hit, then you probably don't need any +hp bonuses at all. If you're trying to avoid being a glass cannon, then you probably want somewhere in the 7.5k+ range. If you have wardicator or guardicator, you can get by with less. Active defenses or self-healing also reduce the requirement a bit.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 321 Arc User
    vonqball said:

    ^Uhmmm no. The Cybernetic Warrior has Con as a superstat. The OP was asking about adding Con to a toon that DOESN'T have Con as a SS. At least, that's how I read it.

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 565 Arc User
    I usually aim for 10.5k hp on my DPS characters, and trying to squeeze that in while still doing at least 5.5k dps on the test dummies. Sometimes this takes less con, (END, and INT primary specs allow you to reach this level without as much con, or any con at all in the case of END). I prefer not to rank my block if I can help it, those points are much better spent some place else. And block canceling if a good way to keep your dmg up(Blocking the status effect, but eating the dmg, or; if you time it right, you can avoid the damage all together in some cases.)
    [NbK]XStorm
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,623 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    nbkxs said:

    I usually aim for 10.5k hp on my DPS characters, and trying to squeeze that in while still doing at least 5.5k dps on the test dummies. Sometimes this takes less con, (END, and INT primary specs allow you to reach this level without as much con, or any con at all in the case of END). I prefer not to rank my block if I can help it, those points are much better spent some place else. And block canceling if a good way to keep your dmg up(Blocking the status effect, but eating the dmg, or; if you time it right, you can avoid the damage all together in some cases.)

    I know you prefer this, but maybe I can change your mind with some numbers.

    Here are some scenarios for DPS hp and block rank. Assume 30% resistance from gear and nothing else.
    6,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 38,800 damage hit and not die (eHP 38,870)
    8,500 hp + r2 block (300%): You can take a 44,100 damage hit and not die (eHP 44,200)
    10,500 hp + r1 block (240%): You can take a 46,400 damage hit and not die (eHP 46,410)


    So 10.5k hp+r1 block is only 19.4% more survivable than 6.5k hp+r3 block.

    Each point of CON gives 15hp, so to go from 6,500 to 10,500 hp you use up 266 stat points towards CON.

    Personally, I would much rather spend those 266 stat points on dealing damage, especially with how specs provide linear scaling for many of their buffs, and use up the 4 adv points to rank up block.

    And just for kicks:
    8,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 50,800 damage hit and not die (eHP 50,830)
    This is 9.5% more survivable than 10.5k hp+r1 block. Takes 2 adv points and saves 133 stat points for use towards damage.

    10,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 62,700 damage hit and not die (eHP 62,790)
    This is 35% more survivable than 10.5k hp+r1 block. Takes 4 adv points.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,638 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    My usually cap is at 8000 HP with my DPS, I prefer contributing on my Damage and Energy stats, I count on their 2 Self Heals and Blocking for survability and I feel they don't even need that during cosmics

    I find having a DPS with 10k+ HP just incredible silly, it hurts their DPS and Energy managment

    The only few occasions that I will have a DPS with 10.000+ HP would be to reflect their physical appearance and body types​​
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 72+ Characters (7 ATs, 65 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.

    Late response, but nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 321 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.

    Late response, but nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.
    Er, even later response, but the OP was asking how much Con was needed on a DPS character, basically. The OP said nothing about forms. In suggesting that Con could be used as a superstat, I wasn't addressing forms, or anything about them. Why would I? That wasn't what the OP asked. I also never said anything about getting a big damage bonus from stacking Con; someone else erroneously said that I was saying that. My only comment on that was that all superstats give bonuses. Maybe I wasn't excessively clear, as I'm not the most eloquent person on the planet, but if I don't personally and definitively state that "stacking Con is a good way to increase damage!", then taking what I said that way is a misinterpretation.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Er, even later response, but the OP was asking how much Con was needed on a DPS character

    and then you said
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you. That's why I quoted you before my response.
    And before you respond with "but I didn't mention a form!" again, I'll pre-respond to that:
    spinnytop wrote: »
    nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.

    Which is all a response to you wondering why people don't stat Con for its potential contribution to damage. You didn't mention forms, but I did because it was relevant to explaining why people don't try to use Con's super stat damage bonus as a way to get big damage.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    I never said you were responding to the OP. I said I was, at one point.

    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form. That would be stupid. (I actually think you guys are that smart, but misinterpreted me, and I didn't explain things as clearly as I originally thought [I looked].)

    And regardless of how much or how little you build up a secondary SS, it still contributes a % to your effectiveness. It might be negligible compared to the form, but it's still there. (You keep bringing up forms, so....) Also, superstats rise with your level, so they build up whether you invest in them or not.

    In the future, I'll try to explain myself a bit better to avoid these misinterpretations as much as possible. I may also choose to not respond to someone who corrects me, as this does not seem to ever clear anything up.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form.

    So you were talking about upping your damage by slotting a few Con mods? That doesn't make it anymore viable because still all you're doing is lowering the damage bonus from your Form. That's why I keep bringing up forms, because every point you put into Con is a point you're not putting into your Form, and that's why people don't do that to increase their damage.

    Even if somebody doesn't have a form, all that means is that they could put their points into literally any stat other than ego or strength and have the same effect as putting it into Con. Sure there's Wardicator to consider, but not really since this example has already made it clear they don't care about damage because they don't have a form.

    The only people who up their damage by statting Con are tanks, and in their case the increased damage bonus from super stats is incidental to the fact that they're stacking Con to survive more damage.

    If you are putting points into Con it is because you have decided that toughness is more important than damage output and you are actively dumping damage output for more hitpoints, and possibly defense.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 321 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form.

    So you were talking about upping your damage by slotting a few Con mods? That doesn't make it anymore viable because still all you're doing is lowering the damage bonus from your Form. That's why I keep bringing up forms, because every point you put into Con is a point you're not putting into your Form, and that's why people don't do that to increase their damage.

    Even if somebody doesn't have a form, all that means is that they could put their points into literally any stat other than ego or strength and have the same effect as putting it into Con. Sure there's Wardicator to consider, but not really since this example has already made it clear they don't care about damage because they don't have a form.

    The only people who up their damage by statting Con are tanks, and in their case the increased damage bonus from super stats is incidental to the fact that they're stacking Con to survive more damage.

    If you are putting points into Con it is because you have decided that toughness is more important than damage output and you are actively dumping damage output for more hitpoints, and possibly defense.

    No, that isn't what I meant, either. Sorry if I confused you again, I'm done with this.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability? They added in that because it is a SS it contributes to your damage regardless of what Stat it actually is. Forms have NOTHING to do with what they asked. They did not ask "Why don't they use Con as their Primary Super Stat?" in which your answer would be relevant.

    Example: If I run Concentration then as long as Int or Ego is my Primary and as high as possible then it loses me ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in damage in regards to my form to have Con as a Secondary SS.

    The actual answer to the question that is actually BEING ASKED is: Some DO have Con as a secondary but others who do not tend to focus on Dex as you suspected for the Crits or they double down on things like Int or Rec to give themselves shorter Cooldown and More energy or even more often they might have Pre to boost their heals and holds they may have. Often times Pre can actually be more useful than Con for staying alive because all Con really does is add a few HP.


    Now that that is settled.

    kamokami you are correct BUT there is more to surviving some content than just blocking a big hit. When you have dots all over or 50 things attacking you all at once your block will not help you. In the end you need to be free to kill what is killing you and that requires more HP or more potent fast heals. So it does really depend on what all they want this character to take on and rather or not they can count on having a good tank and(or) healer around which most of us cannot.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).
  • krazykarazankrazykarazan Posts: 33 Arc User
    The answer is always: it depends!
    glass cannon : 0 additional con (apart from base con stats) to maximise damage output
    - growth mods in defense primary gear for additional HP (note: extra HP doesnt not equate to additonal CON stat points),
    - rank up your block to r3 ( see kamokami's response) to increase survivability
    If you're planning to use the toon for cosmic hunts, more than likely you're teaming with people that will have some support auras for you to leverage off and increase your survivability even further :)

    I am @krazykarazan ingame
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 397 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).


    Actually, initially, he was not asking a question at all. He only started to have to ask questions because you brought up that players do not use con because of Forms which had absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

    Forms do not factor into this discussion based on exactly what you quoted him saying. Shall we go over this again?

    Why does it matter if you have Con as an SS to in terms of your damage output? The only way in which having Con as an SS lowers your damage output is by not having Dex you lose out on the Maximum amount of Crit Chance + the amount of added damage your SS gives regardless of what it is.

    That has NOTHING to do with Forms. The only time Forms factor into this discussion is when we are talking about the Super Stat you have chosen to work up to the highest level. As I said: If I have Concentration and my Ego or Int are my highest stat then it does not matter what other stats I have in terms of damage bonus from Concentration.

    So say I ran Concentration: Ego Primary, Regen and Con Secondary with my focus for stat boosts in Ego. Now let's say I do the same thing except replace Con with Pre. No change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Endurance. Again no change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Dex. Now I deal more damage because I Crit more often BUT nothing about Concentration's bonus has changed.

    Basically: If you do not get it by now you are either extremely dense or just trolling. So much like with eviltwintwo I am done trying to explain, what is a very simple concept, to you with this post.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 321 Arc User
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).


    Actually, initially, he was not asking a question at all. He only started to have to ask questions because you brought up that players do not use con because of Forms which had absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

    Forms do not factor into this discussion based on exactly what you quoted him saying. Shall we go over this again?

    Why does it matter if you have Con as an SS to in terms of your damage output? The only way in which having Con as an SS lowers your damage output is by not having Dex you lose out on the Maximum amount of Crit Chance + the amount of added damage your SS gives regardless of what it is.

    That has NOTHING to do with Forms. The only time Forms factor into this discussion is when we are talking about the Super Stat you have chosen to work up to the highest level. As I said: If I have Concentration and my Ego or Int are my highest stat then it does not matter what other stats I have in terms of damage bonus from Concentration.

    So say I ran Concentration: Ego Primary, Regen and Con Secondary with my focus for stat boosts in Ego. Now let's say I do the same thing except replace Con with Pre. No change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Endurance. Again no change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Dex. Now I deal more damage because I Crit more often BUT nothing about Concentration's bonus has changed.

    Basically: If you do not get it by now you are either extremely dense or just trolling. So much like with eviltwintwo I am done trying to explain, what is a very simple concept, to you with this post.

    First and foremost, hasukurobi, thank you very much for explaining my point. Very cool of you.

    One thing--you seem to be assuming spinnytop is attacking me (please correct me if I'm wrong about this). At no time did I feel that way, Spinny was just trying to understand what I was talking about. My first post was badly worded and led a few people to think I was endorsing stacking Con instead of the superstat that affected the form, which would be...ineffective, to say the least. Sure, those who misunderstood could possibly have reasoned it out b/c of my other posts, but the whole thing could have been avoided altogether had I just explained my original point better. Also, what they thought I was saying and what I thought they thought I was saying turned out to be different--so my subsequent posts, if taken with the original misunderstanding in mind, would just muddle things more. I got myself into a hole and tried to get out by digging downward. :pensive:

    Any irritation/frustration I felt was at the situation, particularly my inability to squash the original misunderstanding, not at Spinny or anyone else. Misunderstandings happen, sometimes because one person's way of expressing things is different from another's.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Well you could have just said "I'm actually talking about stacking Con to make it easier to survive stuff, I'm not talking about damage at all" o3o which again would have led to me pointing out that that's the entire point of the thread, someone doing that and asking how much they should do it :p

    Instead you just kept on talking about damage u3u
    All three super stats increase your damage. That's part of their overall significance. which makes them meaningful.

    So yeah... a lot of what you said was unclear. Especially this!
    Honestly, would you give up that 64%?

    and this too, where you mention the increase in toughness as a "side effect" indicating a person would be stacking it for some other primary benefit o3o
    I was just mentioning that taking Con as a superstat would have the side effect of increasing your HP.

    I mean I know that what you meant is cleared up now, but I just thought I would illustrate just how much the waters were muddied by unclear and misleading statements and how even someone with their head on straight might have been lead to believe that you were talking about damage rather than increased survival ability.
  • pr0fp0ttspr0fp0tts Posts: 46 Arc User
    The amount of health you have can, of course, have a big impact on your average DPS - depending on the content you're doing, as others have said. At the end of the day time spent faceplanted puts a big dent in your average DPS, as does time spent turtled behind a Block (unless your DPS is all from pets or DoTs or similar effects). If you're generally in team environments with someone pulling all the aggro then sure, who needs health? If you're wanting to solo even some of the slightly more challenging stuff (like some of the Adventure Packs) then your toon's health becomes much more important. There is a balancing act, as mentioned by someone up-thread, between resources put into health and resources put into damage mitigation, as one may expect (a point of damage not taken is as good as an extra point of health after all) but where that point is is bound to be down to playstyle and the content you're facing, due to damage mitigation often being in percentages rather than straight numbers (a Block that saves you from a big spike of damage may not help as much against a few dozen enemies flinging ping-damage at you...).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,346 Arc User
    pr0fp0tts wrote: »
    If you're wanting to solo even some of the slightly more challenging stuff (like some of the Adventure Packs) then your toon's health becomes much more important.
    Actually, it doesn't really. Healing rate is far more important than max hp for most solo content.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,623 Arc User
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    kamokami you are correct BUT there is more to surviving some content than just blocking a big hit.
    I never claimed that's all there was to surviving "some content".
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    When you have dots all over or 50 things attacking you all at once your block will not help you.
    When I have 50 things attacking me blocking helps me all the time. A lot.
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    In the end you need to be free to kill what is killing you and that requires more HP or more potent fast heals.
    You can also block and wait for your active defenses to be available or block and wait until your heals are available or block and wait until your spike damage is available to kill everything fast or block and run out of range or out of line of sight or......a bunch of stuff.

    There are many ways to solve the problem of "50 things attacking me". Pick your favorite applicable combination of:
    - more HP
    - killing things fast
    - teammates
    - great heals
    - high general resistance levels
    - crowd control: knocks, holds
    - range: moving out of range of melee attacks, long charges, or 50ft attacks which generally hit harder
    - line of sight: moving in and out of line of sight to attack when it's most advantageous to you
    - a ranked block

    And yeah ranked block is still in there because it still helps. Sometimes more, sometimes less...just like anything else on that list.
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    So it does really depend on what all they want this character to take on
    Obviously.

    It's easy to come up with situations where more hp and more heals are not helpful. Just like it's easy to come up with situations where higher ranked block is not helpful. In the end, unless you are specific about what content you're discussing everyone can just say, "it depends" which is as correct as it is useless.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,069 Arc User
    Epidemic / Pestilence / Ebon Void R3 with [Voltanic Potential] device. We have noching to think about. You can be BAKA except for Kiga and Ape. o3o
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,541 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    I usually aim for 10.5k hp on my DPS characters, and trying to squeeze that in while still doing at least 5.5k dps on the test dummies. Sometimes this takes less con, (END, and INT primary specs allow you to reach this level without as much con, or any con at all in the case of END). I prefer not to rank my block if I can help it, those points are much better spent some place else. And block canceling if a good way to keep your dmg up(Blocking the status effect, but eating the dmg, or; if you time it right, you can avoid the damage all together in some cases.)
    This takes a lot of practice and skill, but it works. Block early to avoid status effects, then late to avoid damage.
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