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Knock Back - is this a no-no?

seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
Returning player, exploring my build options. I prefer DPS, but really anything survivable in PVE is fun to me. And I'm gold. So FF is ok in terms of any build suggestions you may have,

One thing I wonder about - Force and Might have a lot of knockback powers. Are these used strictly for solo PVE content? Or do groups not care that Bubba just pounded a bad guy so hard that he flew over the building over there?

Both power sets appeal to me (still trying to find current builds to use as a template) but I don't know if they are viable due to all the mayhem they must cause in groups.

Educate me please!

Comments

  • bringmeaslabbringmeaslab Posts: 147 Arc User
    Knock powers work fine in group content, as long as you're aware and use them correctly. Most bosses are knock-immune, so it's a non issue on those fights. On regular mobs, you can use knock-up or knock-down powers to build knock resist stacks to make them immune, too. And, ofc, if your hit is going to defeat them anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not they're knocked.
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    Just remember that tossing baddies around slows down the game for everyone, including yourself. Keeping that in mind, you can easily structure your combat style so you can still use KB powers without spending days chasing down stray baddies.

    Once you practice for a while, you'll have a good feel for how much of a bit your hit will do and you can time it so you only knock opponents far when you know the hit will defeat them. Use taps to chew down their HP, then open up for the final blow.

    One thing to be aware of is that many big knock powers have a fairly long charge up. You can often end up charging it up only to have the target defeated by someone else before you get the shot off. It's best to mix in a maintain or tap power to blow through trash mobs and save the big hits for the bosses.
    - - - - -
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    Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
  • seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
    Ok thanks - I'll play around a bit. Is Impulse optimized, or are there FF builds out there that can top it? I have not found one, which is why I ask. Share any you have!
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,708 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Impulse is one of the weaker ATs, imo, though it can play pretty defensively if using PFF. I'd def make a Force FF over it if you have FFs available.

    Here's a Force dps build:

    (Unnamed Build) - Freeform
    v2.4.2-29

    Super Stats
    Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
    Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
    Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Cybernetic Warrior (Con: 10, Int: 10, Rec: 8, End: 10)
    Level 6: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
    Level 9: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 12: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 15: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)
    Level 18: Investigator (Int: 5, End: 5)
    Level 21: Amazing Stamina (Rec: 5, End: 5)

    Powers
    Level 1: Force Bolts (advantages)
    Level 1: Force Blast (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 6: Force Shield (Rank 2, Force Sheathe)
    Level 8: Unstoppable (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 11: Concentration (advantages)
    Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 17: Molecular Self-Assembly
    Level 20: Telekinetic Burst (Rank 2, Sudden Impact)
    Level 23: Force Geyser (Nailed to the Ground)
    Level 26: Force Cascade (Rank 2, Rank 3, Accelerated Metabolism)
    Level 29: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 32: Masterful Dodge (advantages)
    Level 35: Lock N Load (Rank 2)
    Level 38: Gravity Driver (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Adv. Points: 34/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6:
    Level 35:

    Specializations
    Intelligence: Preparation (2/2)
    Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
    Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
    Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
    Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
    Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
    Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
    Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
    Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
    Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
    Mastery: Intelligence Mastery (1/1)

    If you don't have Grav Driver unlocked then something else can go in the last power slot.

    Charges Force Blast more often when energy is low, and charges FC when energy is abundant. Geyser and/or Conviction can proc MSA to give you more energy for FC (Unstoppable also gives you energy on knock attempts). Force still (imo badly) needs a revamp, so I took TK Burst as a cheaper, non-KB AoE alternative to FC (it looks pretty Force-like, and still has the heavy, charged feel like other Force attacks). Should also be pretty survivable for a dps build. Gears mostly for Int, w/ some Con and Rec/End.
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 698 Arc User
    Just for a different option, I've got a pretty solid heavy weapons character - and it makes a good fire melee option if you combine it with the invisible weapon skins from the foxbat event.

    For melee in particular, getting those knock resist stacks up on targets is pretty important. I strongly suggest taking pounce as your lunge for a might or heavy weapons character; for my build*, for example, I can hit pounce, eruption, arc of ruin (with advantage), and that's three stacks on my target and I can start using annihilate without tossing things all over the map. I'm not as familiar with might builds, but they should be able to do something similar.

    *Actually, that's not quite the build I use on live; I modified it a bit to be something you could mostly use for leveling (respec into it at level 8; getting to 8 with just eruption wouldn't be much fun.) Also of note: no, you can't use both regeneration and unstoppable at the same time - but you can make a build in melee dps role with unstoppable, and a build in hybrid (or even tank) with regen, and swap between them (build swapping is on a short cooldown); I use regen for this because it's the only defensive passive that will save you if you're already at low health - swap it in, block, and wait for your HP to stabilize.
  • seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
    Thanks for those - I have a question though. I've read the tool tips and I see no reference to knockback resistance. None of the powers you mention have this phrase mentioned at all that I could find, not even in the advanced descriptions in the Power House.

    Where can I learn about this effect and what powers apply it? Googled it and the only reference I can find power-wise talks about buffs that apply Knock Resistance to you as a buff, not to the mobs.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,708 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Knock resistance gets built up like diminishing returns in other games. Each time you attempt to CC a mob w/ a certain type of CC, it gains 1 stack of resistance to that type (knocks are one type, holds are another, roots another, etc), indicated on its debuff bar. Once a type of stack gets to 3, that mob becomes immune to that type of control for the debuff's duration.

    Some powers that knock (mostly knockbacks) gain a damage bonus on targets that are immune to knock (presumably to make up for the lack of CC effect and fall dmg). Additionally, (most) bosses are CC-immune from the outset.

    You generally won't find any of this stuff outlined on power tooltips, cause its not really power-specific, but rather an over-arching game mechanic.
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
    Perfect - I understand now!
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 698 Arc User
    There's one additional thing to note on resistance stacks: an enemy target that has three stacks of knock resistance, and thus immunity to knock effects, will have that stack's duration refresh on any attempted knock them. (Every now and then I run into some bugged situation where it doesn't work like this, but in general once you get a target to three stacks of resist you can just keep hitting them with annihilate or haymaker or whatever and they'll never budge.)

    By contrast, a player with three stacks of knock resist, will -not- have the duration refreshed, and thus has only a very limited time before the enemies will start playing pinball with them again.
  • seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
    Cool - thanks!
  • highjusticarhighjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User
    Walls are your friend. Practice your positioning and bounce the mob into a wall at its back and you get to knockback and have fun seiing a mob hit a wall and then face plant.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,379 Arc User
    Just knock stuff all over. Simple rule: You knock it, you kill it. Knocking stuff a mile and a half away is just fine ( and fun! ) as long as you make sure to chase it down and finish it off.
  • vorshothvorshoth Posts: 594 Arc User
    It's generally a non-issue except in timed stuff, because sometimes CO is janky as all hell and an enemy got knocked inside a storage container that can't be destroyed, or they're hidden away, and nobody can find them.

    Against bosses, it's fine, but 'defeat all enemies' and 'defeat all in x time' stuff, the rare chance of losing a quest objective can make the whole thing a waste of time...

    But it's uncommon to actually happen.

    *maybe* people with builds more geared to stand still and fire all the lazers and melee attacks would find it a hassle, but they can learn to move their butts more.
    [SIGNATURE REDACTED]
  • seraphg77seraphg77 Posts: 15 Arc User
    Thanks all!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,349 Arc User
    morigosa said:

    There's one additional thing to note on resistance stacks: an enemy target that has three stacks of knock resistance, and thus immunity to knock effects, will have that stack's duration refresh on any attempted knock them. (Every now and then I run into some bugged situation where it doesn't work like this, but in general once you get a target to three stacks of resist you can just keep hitting them with annihilate or haymaker or whatever and they'll never budge.)

    By contrast, a player with three stacks of knock resist, will -not- have the duration refreshed, and thus has only a very limited time before the enemies will start playing pinball with them again.

    How often do NPCs that are low enough rank to be affected by knocks live long enough for that to matter?
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 698 Arc User
    edited March 2018

    How often do NPCs that are low enough rank to be affected by knocks live long enough for that to matter?

    Edit: mis-read what question you were asking.

    It's not super-common, but it can sometimes matter if you're still leveling and in an alert or lair.

    Edit2: The longest-lived non-knock-immune targets that I can think of offhand are nemesis bosses - and those, annoyingly, use the player form of knock resist that will wear off partway through the fight.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,379 Arc User

    How often do NPCs that are low enough rank to be affected by knocks live long enough for that to matter?

    About half a second longer than it takes for me to smack em with a charged roomsweeper owo
  • zwipezantherzwipezanther Posts: 5 Arc User
    Personally, as a melee tank, I find knock-backs used offensively annoying during grab alerts.

    Knocking and spreading them apart to the other side of the room when I’ve already gathered them to build energy/threat makes it that much more tedious to do my job.

    Knock-Back should be used defensively IMHO...
    @zwipezanther

    aka Rooster-Man (Level 40 Master) SG: The PUN-ishers
    aka Flamin’ Hot Rooster-Man (Level 40 Blazing) SG: The PUN-ishers
    aka Black Rooster (Level 40 Gunslinger) SG: None
    aka Meg-Hen (Level 40 Fist) SG: The Justice Girls
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,623 Arc User
    I don't run alerts on a regular basis so I can't speak to it there, but I do find knocking things really far highly satisfying. Since mobs don't matter either way I'd prefer to retain the ability to use such a satisfying and fun mechanic.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,349 Arc User
    My big objection to knocks is master villain class enemies that can be knocked but are immune to falling damage. Those really shouldn't exist -- either make them knock immune or make them take falling damage.
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 651 Arc User

    My big objection to knocks is master villain class enemies that can be knocked but are immune to falling damage. Those really shouldn't exist -- either make them knock immune or make them take falling damage.

    100% agree.

  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,546 Arc User
    I only get peeved about knocks when it's that Hi-Pan special alert and people knock mobs off the floating islands so they respawn and cause problems for people who die at Hi-Pan and have to run back.

    So much hate for that.​​
    100% of the world is crazy, 95% are in denial.

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,379 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    I think the thread should have been named "Is Knock-Knock a No-No?"

    EDIT - okay just thought of this. any of you girls out there trying to have a kid can use this.

    Womans: Hey honey, I just heard this really funny joke about the mmo Champions Online that we both play. Would you like to hear it?

    Mans: A joke about CO? Ha, this I've got to hear!

    Womans: Knock knock!

    Mans: Who's there?

    Womans: Knock up!

    Mans: Ah! Knock up who?

    Womans: Me!

    And then you pounce on him :D
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 651 Arc User
    O.o ^That is some niche comedy right there.
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