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How much CON for a character without a CON stat

Just about every character has a CON stat (Love not going splat). My question if for characters going for builds without CON (Glass cannons / Focus on DPS over staying alive). Thanks to MODS and gear with +Health, How much CON/Health should I go for?
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  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,644 Arc User
    Most glass cannons I see has around 6-8K health.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    Most glass cannons get that health via Growth mods and gear that gives extra hit points. My glass cannons are generally 10-20 Con depending on which talents I took.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,630 Arc User

    Just about every character has a CON stat (Love not going splat). My question if for characters going for builds without CON (Glass cannons / Focus on DPS over staying alive). Thanks to MODS and gear with +Health, How much CON/Health should I go for?

    Rank 3 block provides a massive amount of defense which allows you to not take any CON and survive. Most of the exprienced glass cannons I know do not take CON and their death count is usually 0 or 2 max..

    I do see a lot of other people who take CON but don't have a ranked block or don't block in time that have 5+ deaths. When it comes to staying alive, my parses for the past year show a weak correlation with hp levels and a very strong correlation with % of hits blocked.

    That said, the answer to your question depends on how new you are to the content. If you are doing something for the first time, it's good to be tough so you can chill and learn the fight. A good starting point for this is 200+ CON with some HP gear. As you get comfortable with the fight, you can remove more and more CON in favor of whatever stat scales your damage form.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    0 Con. If it's not a SS don't put anything into it.

    Get Bolstering secondaries and toss some Growth mods into your Defense Primary. That's all you need ( and you technically don't even need that, lots of people go for defense instead ).

    Giving yourself lots of Con is one way to make your entry into content softer, but I'd argue it's not the best way. Better is to just play really defensively, keep your block on a hair trigger. Observe those around you, see if they're not blocking when you are, and adjust accordingly.

    The last thing you wanna do is become one of these people who leans on Con because they used it to get through stuff instead of the block button. Start learning early.
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,459 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I have about 6k on Ratty and have no issues with surviving and I’ve only died 2,300+ times...Con seems to just give you that that pat on the back that everything will be okay.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 10,696 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I don't usually suggest Con-less builds since I don't assume the person's is going to be fine being more glassy w/o more info, but its usually also pretty simple to change such setups to be less Con reliant for better base dps. But yea, you can be fine as a dps w/o any added Con and instead things like growth mods- esp as you get more comfortable w/ the content you frequent.
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  • servantrulesservantrules Posts: 295 Arc User
    CON as a non superstat doesn't give more than bonus health. Like the previous suggestions, just get Mods and Gear that boost Health directly. You could also squeeze in CON in the Talents options if there are no better choices after you've gotten the most out of the Super-Stat combos.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,644 Arc User
    STR spec tree has Swole that gives you health the more Str you have. Might want to look into it if you're interested..
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  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    Endurance also can be used to increase health if a Primary, but there seem to be a few reasons for not using it for that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User

    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    No, players don't try that because there's no Form that scales off of Con. SS damage bonus's overall contribution isn't particularly meaningful.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,630 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    Well only if your goal is to deal damage.

    If you're a Tank then there is a relatively high minimum threshold of toughness to hit before focusing on max dmg. If you're a healer it might be ok to deal no damage at all.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    Side note: though it may not fit your character theme, the block from Power Armor (Energy Shield) has a higher across-the-board block percentage (rank 1 is 270% instead of 250%). Of course, you'd still have to block on time for it to do you any good.

    Depending on what kind of damage you're facing, you could also consider Telekinetic Shield (rank 1 is 250% for most damage types but 300% against physical damage). It also has an advantage (Telekinetic Reinforcement) that blunts incoming damage for a few seconds after you release the block. If non-physical is the problem, Eldritch Shield from the Mystic stuff does 250% v. physical and 300% v. non-physical at rank 1.

    These won't give you more hit points, but they help protect the HP you have, universally for Energy Shield, and situationally for the other two.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    kamokami said:

    Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    Well only if your goal is to deal damage.

    If you're a Tank then there is a relatively high minimum threshold of toughness to hit before focusing on max dmg. If you're a healer it might be ok to deal no damage at all.
    True, but the OP said:

    Just about every character has a CON stat (Love not going splat). My question if for characters going for builds without CON (Glass cannons / Focus on DPS over staying alive). Thanks to MODS and gear with +Health, How much CON/Health should I go for?

    So I was actually commenting from that perspective.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    No, players don't try that because there's no Form that scales off of Con. SS damage bonus's overall contribution isn't particularly meaningful.
    I really hope this doesn't sound as though I'm trying to be annoying.

    All three super stats increase your damage. That's part of their overall significance. which makes them meaningful. And I didn't say anything about a form scaling off Con. You can scale a form of one of the other two super stats.

    Did I miss something obvious? (It wouldn't be the first time....)
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    edited January 2018


    Did I miss something obvious? (It wouldn't be the first time....)

    Checking one of my glass cannons:
    Total damage bonus from superstats: 64%
    Total damage bonus from form: 192%
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    edited January 2018


    Did I miss something obvious? (It wouldn't be the first time....)

    Checking one of my glass cannons:
    Total damage bonus from superstats: 64%
    Total damage bonus from form: 192%
    Once again, I wasn't challenging the value of a form, nor was I suggesting using a form that scales off Con (or doesn't exist, about the same thing, apparently). Honestly, would you give up that 64%?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User

    Once again, I wasn't challenging the value of a form, nor was I suggesting using a form that scales off Con (or doesn't exist, about the same thing, apparently). Honestly, would you give up that 64%?

    I get that 64% no matter how I split my attributes. The 192% is dependent on me maxing out the stat that scales my form.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 766 Arc User
    The obvious reason for CON and +HP mods is to "survive". (Had to state the obvious, because...)

    The not so obvious is: for what content?

    Most content is pretty forgiving, with the exception of a few very early missions (Poe, for example) and some portions of other content.

    So, if your answer is for "end game" content, then I have a suggestion that helps me at Kigatilik and Qwyjibo for my squishiest of glass cannons ... Bionic Shield r2+.

    When the snow storm starts, it's very helpful to pop that at the beginning. It helps to mitigate (in a roundabout way) much of that damage.
    When Qwyjibo has just done his big BOOM, lava patches can overlap and you might be caught over many. Popping this right after the boom and quickly pressing block has helped me survive these rather well.​​
    .

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    warcanch said:


    So, if your answer is for "end game" content, then I have a suggestion that helps me at Kigatilik and Qwyjibo for my squishiest of glass cannons ... Bionic Shield r2+.

    Speaking as a healer... please use a different power. If you use bionic shielding on yourself, a healer can't use it on you, and one of the standard ways of keeping the squishies up at kiga is to keep the teamup window open and spam bionic healing.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 766 Arc User
    So, if your answer is for "end game" content, then I have a suggestion that helps me at Kigatilik and Qwyjibo for my squishiest of glass cannons ... Bionic Shield r2+.

    Speaking as a healer... please use a different power. If you use bionic shielding on yourself, a healer can't use it on you, and one of the standard ways of keeping the squishies up at kiga is to keep the teamup window open and spam bionic healing.

    The way the power works (and it's the only one that works that way) is why I suggest and use it.​​
    .

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  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Once again, I wasn't challenging the value of a form, nor was I suggesting using a form that scales off Con (or doesn't exist, about the same thing, apparently). Honestly, would you give up that 64%?

    I get that 64% no matter how I split my attributes. The 192% is dependent on me maxing out the stat that scales my form.
    I said, "I wasn't challenging the value of a form". I wasn't addressing forms in my original post. Someone else brought up forms. In my first post, I was pointing out that your three superstats enhance your character regardless of what they are; if you take Con, the superstat bonuses (including damage) are the same as they are for an equal amount of any other superstat. The difference is that more Con equals more health. It's something that can be considered for certain builds.

    Also, when I asked if I'd missed something obvious, I meant something obvious about superstats only. I'm getting the idea that I wasn't exceptionally clear on that.

    This post was edited b/c I thought my first attempt could have been interpreted as hostile, which I didn't really intend.
    Post edited by eviltwintwo on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    warcanch said:


    The way the power works (and it's the only one that works that way) is why I suggest and use it.​​

    "I can heal myself for 500 a tic and thus prevent a healer from healing for 3000 a tic" is a good idea why?
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 766 Arc User
    The way the power works (and it's the only one that works that way) is why I suggest and use it.
    "I can heal myself for 500 a tic and thus prevent a healer from healing for 3000 a tic" is a good idea why?

    A good idea if you aren't putting one on my squishy.​​
    .

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    warcanch said:


    A good idea if you aren't putting one on my squishy.​​

    Better plan: use Conviction on your dps builds.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited February 2018


    Also, when I asked if I'd missed something obvious, I meant something obvious about superstats only. I'm getting the idea that I wasn't exceptionally clear on that.

    The obvious thing about super stats only that you missed in your initial musings about why people don't stack Con for damage bonus is that super stats give you way more damage bonus from their scaling with Con and there's no Form that scales with the super stat Con. Super stats.

    tl;dr - people don't do it because it doesn't work
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    I suck at blocking. I always miss the tell ... or there's some sneaky attack that my foolish old eyes didn't see. That being said.. a rank 3 block is a powerful gift from the gaming gods. So rank that mofo up on a squishy. I'm also a fan of bolstering secondaries + Growth mods. There's also some lower level blue gear that grants +hitpoints ... which is a good option for those on a budget.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,741 Arc User
    It really helps to set the camera zoom out to at least 75. Much easier to see the tells, tombs, everything. My survival rate went way up with that. Personally, I find that if you hit your block in time R2 is quite adequate, if you need the 2 points for R3 elsewhere.
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  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    spinnytop said:


    Also, when I asked if I'd missed something obvious, I meant something obvious about superstats only. I'm getting the idea that I wasn't exceptionally clear on that.

    The obvious thing about super stats only that you missed in your initial musings about why people don't stack Con for damage bonus is that super stats give you way more damage bonus from their scaling with Con and there's no Form that scales with the super stat Con. Super stats.

    tl;dr - people don't do it because it doesn't work
    In a previous comment, I said:

    I didn't say anything about a form scaling off Con. You can scale a form of one of the other two super stats.

    And I repeat, I wasn't addressing forms. I also wasn't suggesting Con as primary or stacking Con specifically for a damage bonus. I was just mentioning that taking Con as a superstat would have the side effect of increasing your HP.

    I hope that clears up my meaning, I guess having two or three posts from different days can blur things.

    EDIT
    Now that I think about it, maybe there's a better way to make my point.

    Look at The Cybernetic Warrior in game or on http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm.

    The super stats are Intelligence primary, Constitution and Endurance secondary.

    The form is Particle Accelerator, which scales off INTELLIGENCE.

    This is what I meant in my first post--Con can be a superstat. It will act as any other superstat in its position, but does not have to be your primary or even mainly stacked stat. The OP was talking about a DPS toon having Con, and this AT illustrates that nicely.
    Post edited by eviltwintwo on
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 769 Arc User
    ^Uhmmm no. The Cybernetic Warrior has Con as a superstat. The OP was asking about adding Con to a toon that DOESN'T have Con as a SS. At least, that's how I read it.
  • andondarkmoreandondarkmore Posts: 503 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    I am happy to see my thread is still alive. As I said in my original post. I want to know, by MOD or by GEAR how much CON/HEALTH to give a character who does not have CON as a primary or secondary stat and wants to avoid being taken out in one hit.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User

    I am happy to see my thread is still alive. As I said in my original post. I want to know, by MOD or by GEAR how much CON/HEALTH to give a character who does not have CON as a primary or secondary stat and wants to avoid being taken out in one hit.

    Depends what you want to avoid being taken out in one hit by. With proper positioning and a boss who's being tanked by someone else, there's not much that can't be survived with a ranked block and base hit points.
  • edited March 2018
    When it comes to how much durability to get as a non-tank, it depends a lot on what kind of content you're going to be doing. At cosmics, you can get by with surprisingly little, simply because it's mostly about blocking (Con won't save you if you're not blocking, and if you're blocking you don't really need Con).

    If you're doing Rampage Gravitar, on the other hand...Yeah, you need a lot of HP and Def for that one if you don't have a good healer with you.

    Really, though, if your concern is to only not get killed in ONE hit, then you probably don't need any +hp bonuses at all. If you're trying to avoid being a glass cannon, then you probably want somewhere in the 7.5k+ range. If you have wardicator or guardicator, you can get by with less. Active defenses or self-healing also reduce the requirement a bit.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    vonqball said:

    ^Uhmmm no. The Cybernetic Warrior has Con as a superstat. The OP was asking about adding Con to a toon that DOESN'T have Con as a SS. At least, that's how I read it.

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 659 Arc User
    I usually aim for 10.5k hp on my DPS characters, and trying to squeeze that in while still doing at least 5.5k dps on the test dummies. Sometimes this takes less con, (END, and INT primary specs allow you to reach this level without as much con, or any con at all in the case of END). I prefer not to rank my block if I can help it, those points are much better spent some place else. And block canceling if a good way to keep your dmg up(Blocking the status effect, but eating the dmg, or; if you time it right, you can avoid the damage all together in some cases.)
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,630 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    nbkxs said:

    I usually aim for 10.5k hp on my DPS characters, and trying to squeeze that in while still doing at least 5.5k dps on the test dummies. Sometimes this takes less con, (END, and INT primary specs allow you to reach this level without as much con, or any con at all in the case of END). I prefer not to rank my block if I can help it, those points are much better spent some place else. And block canceling if a good way to keep your dmg up(Blocking the status effect, but eating the dmg, or; if you time it right, you can avoid the damage all together in some cases.)

    I know you prefer this, but maybe I can change your mind with some numbers.

    Here are some scenarios for DPS hp and block rank. Assume 30% resistance from gear and nothing else.
    6,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 38,800 damage hit and not die (eHP 38,870)
    8,500 hp + r2 block (300%): You can take a 44,100 damage hit and not die (eHP 44,200)
    10,500 hp + r1 block (240%): You can take a 46,400 damage hit and not die (eHP 46,410)


    So 10.5k hp+r1 block is only 19.4% more survivable than 6.5k hp+r3 block.

    Each point of CON gives 15hp, so to go from 6,500 to 10,500 hp you use up 266 stat points towards CON.

    Personally, I would much rather spend those 266 stat points on dealing damage, especially with how specs provide linear scaling for many of their buffs, and use up the 4 adv points to rank up block.

    And just for kicks:
    8,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 50,800 damage hit and not die (eHP 50,830)
    This is 9.5% more survivable than 10.5k hp+r1 block. Takes 2 adv points and saves 133 stat points for use towards damage.

    10,500 hp + r3 block (360%): You can take a 62,700 damage hit and not die (eHP 62,790)
    This is 35% more survivable than 10.5k hp+r1 block. Takes 4 adv points.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,177 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    My usually cap is at 8000 HP with my DPS, I prefer contributing on my Damage and Energy stats, I count on their 2 Self Heals and Blocking for survability and I feel they don't even need that during cosmics

    I find having a DPS with 10k+ HP just incredible silly, it hurts their DPS and Energy managment

    The only few occasions that I will have a DPS with 10.000+ HP would be to reflect their physical appearance and body types​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.

    Late response, but nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    This post wasn't meant for the OP but was an answer to others who thought I was attempting to scale a non-existent form off of Constitution. Please consider who I am speaking to before attempting to correct me.

    Late response, but nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.
    Er, even later response, but the OP was asking how much Con was needed on a DPS character, basically. The OP said nothing about forms. In suggesting that Con could be used as a superstat, I wasn't addressing forms, or anything about them. Why would I? That wasn't what the OP asked. I also never said anything about getting a big damage bonus from stacking Con; someone else erroneously said that I was saying that. My only comment on that was that all superstats give bonuses. Maybe I wasn't excessively clear, as I'm not the most eloquent person on the planet, but if I don't personally and definitively state that "stacking Con is a good way to increase damage!", then taking what I said that way is a misinterpretation.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Er, even later response, but the OP was asking how much Con was needed on a DPS character

    and then you said
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you. That's why I quoted you before my response.
    And before you respond with "but I didn't mention a form!" again, I'll pre-respond to that:
    spinnytop wrote: »
    nobody thought you were trying to scale a form off of Con ( this belief is likely what led to you being unable to get what was being explained to you ). It was being explained to you that people don't try to get big damage gains through statting Con because the super stat bonus that would give you is teeny tiny and shriveled compared to the damage gains you get from a Form, and there's no Form that scales with Con.

    Which is all a response to you wondering why people don't stat Con for its potential contribution to damage. You didn't mention forms, but I did because it was relevant to explaining why people don't try to use Con's super stat damage bonus as a way to get big damage.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    I never said you were responding to the OP. I said I was, at one point.

    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form. That would be stupid. (I actually think you guys are that smart, but misinterpreted me, and I didn't explain things as clearly as I originally thought [I looked].)

    And regardless of how much or how little you build up a secondary SS, it still contributes a % to your effectiveness. It might be negligible compared to the form, but it's still there. (You keep bringing up forms, so....) Also, superstats rise with your level, so they build up whether you invest in them or not.

    In the future, I'll try to explain myself a bit better to avoid these misinterpretations as much as possible. I may also choose to not respond to someone who corrects me, as this does not seem to ever clear anything up.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form.

    So you were talking about upping your damage by slotting a few Con mods? That doesn't make it anymore viable because still all you're doing is lowering the damage bonus from your Form. That's why I keep bringing up forms, because every point you put into Con is a point you're not putting into your Form, and that's why people don't do that to increase their damage.

    Even if somebody doesn't have a form, all that means is that they could put their points into literally any stat other than ego or strength and have the same effect as putting it into Con. Sure there's Wardicator to consider, but not really since this example has already made it clear they don't care about damage because they don't have a form.

    The only people who up their damage by statting Con are tanks, and in their case the increased damage bonus from super stats is incidental to the fact that they're stacking Con to survive more damage.

    If you are putting points into Con it is because you have decided that toughness is more important than damage output and you are actively dumping damage output for more hitpoints, and possibly defense.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    When I mentioned "building up" Con, I assumed everyone was smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about ignoring your main stat that works with your form.

    So you were talking about upping your damage by slotting a few Con mods? That doesn't make it anymore viable because still all you're doing is lowering the damage bonus from your Form. That's why I keep bringing up forms, because every point you put into Con is a point you're not putting into your Form, and that's why people don't do that to increase their damage.

    Even if somebody doesn't have a form, all that means is that they could put their points into literally any stat other than ego or strength and have the same effect as putting it into Con. Sure there's Wardicator to consider, but not really since this example has already made it clear they don't care about damage because they don't have a form.

    The only people who up their damage by statting Con are tanks, and in their case the increased damage bonus from super stats is incidental to the fact that they're stacking Con to survive more damage.

    If you are putting points into Con it is because you have decided that toughness is more important than damage output and you are actively dumping damage output for more hitpoints, and possibly defense.

    No, that isn't what I meant, either. Sorry if I confused you again, I'm done with this.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability? They added in that because it is a SS it contributes to your damage regardless of what Stat it actually is. Forms have NOTHING to do with what they asked. They did not ask "Why don't they use Con as their Primary Super Stat?" in which your answer would be relevant.

    Example: If I run Concentration then as long as Int or Ego is my Primary and as high as possible then it loses me ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in damage in regards to my form to have Con as a Secondary SS.

    The actual answer to the question that is actually BEING ASKED is: Some DO have Con as a secondary but others who do not tend to focus on Dex as you suspected for the Crits or they double down on things like Int or Rec to give themselves shorter Cooldown and More energy or even more often they might have Pre to boost their heals and holds they may have. Often times Pre can actually be more useful than Con for staying alive because all Con really does is add a few HP.


    Now that that is settled.

    kamokami you are correct BUT there is more to surviving some content than just blocking a big hit. When you have dots all over or 50 things attacking you all at once your block will not help you. In the end you need to be free to kill what is killing you and that requires more HP or more potent fast heals. So it does really depend on what all they want this character to take on and rather or not they can count on having a good tank and(or) healer around which most of us cannot.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).
  • krazykarazankrazykarazan Posts: 33 Arc User
    The answer is always: it depends!
    glass cannon : 0 additional con (apart from base con stats) to maximise damage output
    - growth mods in defense primary gear for additional HP (note: extra HP doesnt not equate to additonal CON stat points),
    - rank up your block to r3 ( see kamokami's response) to increase survivability
    If you're planning to use the toon for cosmic hunts, more than likely you're teaming with people that will have some support auras for you to leverage off and increase your survivability even further :)

    I am @krazykarazan ingame
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).


    Actually, initially, he was not asking a question at all. He only started to have to ask questions because you brought up that players do not use con because of Forms which had absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

    Forms do not factor into this discussion based on exactly what you quoted him saying. Shall we go over this again?

    Why does it matter if you have Con as an SS to in terms of your damage output? The only way in which having Con as an SS lowers your damage output is by not having Dex you lose out on the Maximum amount of Crit Chance + the amount of added damage your SS gives regardless of what it is.

    That has NOTHING to do with Forms. The only time Forms factor into this discussion is when we are talking about the Super Stat you have chosen to work up to the highest level. As I said: If I have Concentration and my Ego or Int are my highest stat then it does not matter what other stats I have in terms of damage bonus from Concentration.

    So say I ran Concentration: Ego Primary, Regen and Con Secondary with my focus for stat boosts in Ego. Now let's say I do the same thing except replace Con with Pre. No change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Endurance. Again no change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Dex. Now I deal more damage because I Crit more often BUT nothing about Concentration's bonus has changed.

    Basically: If you do not get it by now you are either extremely dense or just trolling. So much like with eviltwintwo I am done trying to explain, what is a very simple concept, to you with this post.
  • eviltwintwoeviltwintwo Posts: 344 Arc User
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Spinny get your head on straight. What eviltwintwo here asked is why don't more people who are DD's use Con as a Super Stat to increase their surviveability?

    For someone asking that he sure talked about damage a lot:
    All three of your superstats increase your damage, do they not? That means if you have Con as a SS and build it up, Con will contribute to your damage just as any other SS would.

    I guess players don't try this because they want Ego-Dex-[EnergyStat] or Str-Dex-[EnergyStat] (or Dex-Xxx-[EnergyStat] for maximum damage. Everything's a trade-off of some kind. And max dmg is always boss.

    And at no point did he say "I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking about toughness" which would have cleared that right up. If his question had been "why don't dpsers take Con to increase their toughness?" my response would have been: They do that. All the time. It's kind of the point of the thread.

    Honestly... you're kind of making it sound like he was asking a dumb question and didn't realize what the thread was about Hasu, and I don't think that's the case ;)

    Hell, you even go on to acknowledge that they were talking about damage after all, and when you're talking about damage Forms are always relevant. If you're taking Con you are actively dumping damage for toughness, and that's why the SS bonus from Con doesn't matter - because whatever SS you took those points out of was also giving that damage bonus ( and probably pumping your form ).


    Actually, initially, he was not asking a question at all. He only started to have to ask questions because you brought up that players do not use con because of Forms which had absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

    Forms do not factor into this discussion based on exactly what you quoted him saying. Shall we go over this again?

    Why does it matter if you have Con as an SS to in terms of your damage output? The only way in which having Con as an SS lowers your damage output is by not having Dex you lose out on the Maximum amount of Crit Chance + the amount of added damage your SS gives regardless of what it is.

    That has NOTHING to do with Forms. The only time Forms factor into this discussion is when we are talking about the Super Stat you have chosen to work up to the highest level. As I said: If I have Concentration and my Ego or Int are my highest stat then it does not matter what other stats I have in terms of damage bonus from Concentration.

    So say I ran Concentration: Ego Primary, Regen and Con Secondary with my focus for stat boosts in Ego. Now let's say I do the same thing except replace Con with Pre. No change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Endurance. Again no change to the damage I deal. Now let's say I do the same thing but replace Con with Dex. Now I deal more damage because I Crit more often BUT nothing about Concentration's bonus has changed.

    Basically: If you do not get it by now you are either extremely dense or just trolling. So much like with eviltwintwo I am done trying to explain, what is a very simple concept, to you with this post.

    First and foremost, hasukurobi, thank you very much for explaining my point. Very cool of you.

    One thing--you seem to be assuming spinnytop is attacking me (please correct me if I'm wrong about this). At no time did I feel that way, Spinny was just trying to understand what I was talking about. My first post was badly worded and led a few people to think I was endorsing stacking Con instead of the superstat that affected the form, which would be...ineffective, to say the least. Sure, those who misunderstood could possibly have reasoned it out b/c of my other posts, but the whole thing could have been avoided altogether had I just explained my original point better. Also, what they thought I was saying and what I thought they thought I was saying turned out to be different--so my subsequent posts, if taken with the original misunderstanding in mind, would just muddle things more. I got myself into a hole and tried to get out by digging downward. :pensive:

    Any irritation/frustration I felt was at the situation, particularly my inability to squash the original misunderstanding, not at Spinny or anyone else. Misunderstandings happen, sometimes because one person's way of expressing things is different from another's.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,411 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Well you could have just said "I'm actually talking about stacking Con to make it easier to survive stuff, I'm not talking about damage at all" o3o which again would have led to me pointing out that that's the entire point of the thread, someone doing that and asking how much they should do it :p

    Instead you just kept on talking about damage u3u
    All three super stats increase your damage. That's part of their overall significance. which makes them meaningful.

    So yeah... a lot of what you said was unclear. Especially this!
    Honestly, would you give up that 64%?

    and this too, where you mention the increase in toughness as a "side effect" indicating a person would be stacking it for some other primary benefit o3o
    I was just mentioning that taking Con as a superstat would have the side effect of increasing your HP.

    I mean I know that what you meant is cleared up now, but I just thought I would illustrate just how much the waters were muddied by unclear and misleading statements and how even someone with their head on straight might have been lead to believe that you were talking about damage rather than increased survival ability.
  • pr0fp0ttspr0fp0tts Posts: 46 Arc User
    The amount of health you have can, of course, have a big impact on your average DPS - depending on the content you're doing, as others have said. At the end of the day time spent faceplanted puts a big dent in your average DPS, as does time spent turtled behind a Block (unless your DPS is all from pets or DoTs or similar effects). If you're generally in team environments with someone pulling all the aggro then sure, who needs health? If you're wanting to solo even some of the slightly more challenging stuff (like some of the Adventure Packs) then your toon's health becomes much more important. There is a balancing act, as mentioned by someone up-thread, between resources put into health and resources put into damage mitigation, as one may expect (a point of damage not taken is as good as an extra point of health after all) but where that point is is bound to be down to playstyle and the content you're facing, due to damage mitigation often being in percentages rather than straight numbers (a Block that saves you from a big spike of damage may not help as much against a few dozen enemies flinging ping-damage at you...).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,773 Arc User
    pr0fp0tts wrote: »
    If you're wanting to solo even some of the slightly more challenging stuff (like some of the Adventure Packs) then your toon's health becomes much more important.
    Actually, it doesn't really. Healing rate is far more important than max hp for most solo content.
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