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Quality of Life Improvent for the Bestial Chains

thebuckeyethebuckeye Posts: 814 Arc User
Iron Chain, Lash, Lariat and Vile Lariat are all 50 foot range powers. While Barbed Chain and Lariat can only be used at a range of 25 feet. I'm asking for one of two things. Either increase the range on the barbed chains or decrease the range on the iron and toxic chains. Which of course would mean the other knock to powers based on the Lariat powers would need to have their ranges decreased from 50 to 25 as well.

I get that the Bestial Chains are meant to be a Mid-Range psuedo melee power, but aren't the Might and Infernal chains meant to do that too?

Comments

  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    All the chain powers that are considered melee have a 25 feet range, the 50 feet powers are considered ranged. Single target Might and Bestial are 25 feet, infernal is 50 feet.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    The knock-to powers are for

    1. getting target in range
    2. applying a buff or debuff

    They aren't for dealing damage, so having a melee or ranged tag, for interaction with forms and passives, doesn't matter much.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    The knock-to powers are for

    1. getting target in range
    2. applying a buff or debuff

    3. interrupting attacks
    4. dealing damage

    They do deal damage, and they apply debuffs relevant to their power sets which deal damage, which is why they're balanced according to those sets. There is a reason that the OP wants a 50 range power that applies bleed, rather than just taking the 50 range version that applies poison.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    Ah, I focused more on the second solution, decreasing the range of the other powers.

    That being said, I know that they do damage, but that is a tertiary (or quaternary) effect.

    Question: is a chain power with 50' range bleed unbalanced (compared to 25' range)?

    Can one of the 50' chains inflict bleed as an advantage? If so, maybe an advantage could increase the range of Barbed Lariat to 50 feet, to maintain some sort of parity?

    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    Tertiary, bestiary, penitentiary doesn't matter what descriptor you apply they deal damage and it has to be considered.

    The 50 range chains cannot apply bleed. Is a 50 range bleed applying chain unbalanced? Well, we used to have them and now we don't, there's clearly a reason. Probably something to do with those Reapers Embrace builds that would apply bleeds at range. Was pretty fun how they could effectively be a ranged build that just has to swoop in every few moments to do a big burst. So you tell me, is it balanced that a melee build can spend a lot of its time at range and not see any real hit to their burst potential? That 25 range is still two and a half times the 10 that a melee build normally has to work with.

    The 50 range chains have no advantages that allow them to apply bleed, so no equivalence there. Well, there is Shuriken, which you can turn into a 50 range chain with a 10% chance to apply bleed for an investment of 4 points. So if we're talking an advantage that raises the range to 50 and nerfs the chance to apply bleed severely, maybe, though it would have to cost 4 points to keep people from taking Messy.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,344 Arc User

    The knock-to powers are for

    1. getting target in range
    2. applying a buff or debuff

    They aren't for dealing damage, so having a melee or ranged tag, for interaction with forms and passives, doesn't matter much.

    It matters more for other power interactions, such as whether it triggers laser knight/elusive monk. In practice, I find knock-to powers so unreliable that I don't include them on builds in the first place, making the issue moot.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    thebuckeye wrote: »
    Iron Chain, Lash, Lariat and Vile Lariat are all 50 foot range powers. While Barbed Chain and Lariat can only be used at a range of 25 feet.
    This is incorrect. There are chain powers in 3 different frameworks:
    • Might (melee) => Iron Chain/Barbed Lariat => 25 feet
    • Bestial (melee) => Barbed Chain/Barbed Lariat => 25 feet
    • Infernal (ranged) => Lash/Vile Lariat => 50 feet

    There's a few lariat-type powers in other frameworks too, such as laser sword, shadow, telekinesis, and martial arts. They mostly follow the same pattern of:
    if (framework.isRanged) range = 50; else range = 25;
    

    The outliers are telekinesis, which is half ranged so I guess that justifies it, and the chained kunai advantage on shuriken throw, which appears to be 50 feet despite the neighboring chained kunai power which is only 25 feet. I wouldn't be surprised if the chained kunai advantage being 50 feet was simply an oversight.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The 50 range chains cannot apply bleed. Is a 50 range bleed applying chain unbalanced? Well, we used to have them and now we don't, there's clearly a reason. Probably something to do with those Reapers Embrace builds that would apply bleeds at range.
    I think you're overthinking this and should probably give your poor brain a rest. If you honestly think that being able to stack [generic stacking consumable buff/debuff] from range before swooping in for a melee burst is overpowered, then let me point you toward telekinesis. In fact, Telekinetic Strike behaves like a chain power (combo-based with ramping hits/increased application chances on the last hit) but goes all the way to 100 feet. So there's that.

    I feel pretty safe in saying that the reason the barbed chains are 25 feet while the infernal chains are 50 feet is because the barbed chains are in a primarily melee framework while the infernal chains are in a primarily ranged framework. I'd be surprised if the devs' reasoning was any more complicated than that.

    PS: You can apply open wound (applies bleed stacks over time) from 50 feet via frag grenade w/ the open wound advantage. Quick, call the balance police.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    aesica said:


    If you honestly think that being able to stack [generic stacking consumable buff/debuff] from range before swooping in for a melee burst is overpowered

    I'd send you back in time to experience the kinds of things we did with that tech back in the day firsthand, but my time machine is in the shop.
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