test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Power Changes Discussion Thread

13

Comments

  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User

    Lyn, why do you never post the full screen of your parses?

    It's wasted space. I consider posting only the relevant numbers more readable.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    the pie charts are a nice visual, but you can already calculate rel% done w/ the data given pretty easily. I may cut them in the future myself as they take up lotsa space.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Ok here are comparisons for just single target maintains. Here's the setup used:




    All parses were started at 8 form stacks. No other powers were used with the exception of the main attack power + toggle form + passive.

    100 ft. Range

    LARC: 3,636 DPS (62% crit)


    SOUL BEAM: 3,565 DPS (59% crit)


    TK ASSAULT: 3,464 DPS (64% crit)


    50 ft. Range

    TWO GUN MOJO: 3,423 DPS (42% crit)*


    INCINERATE: 3,710 DPS (59% crit)


    *Note that something appears to be wrong with 2gun mojo. That crit chance is way too far off the other parses to be coincidence if anything it should be higher due to Furious. I suspect 2gun has lost its status as a single target power for the purposes of spec tree crit chance buffs....this may have happened when it went from a single target to an AoE and then back to single target again.

    Also worth noting that crit rates varied quite a bit. I actually did more parses than this...about 3 runs for each power but this is the closest I could bring the crit rates to each other. Keep this in mind when comparing DPS.

    My take is that Incinerate should likely cost a bit more to be in line with the others but keep its base dmg where it's at. It's slightly higher than the other powers but it's also at 50ft which is slightly significant. Or it could get 100ft of range and be brought down to the Larc/Soul Beam range.

    Full rotation parses coming up next.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Some other weirdness going on with the onslaught burst hits.
    All those attacks hit once per 0.5 seconds, which is also the internal cooldown on sniper gloves.
    But some attacks got far less onslaught bursts per hit.

    LA 512/587=87%
    SB 433/496=87%
    TKA 364/532=68%
    TGM 598/604=99%
    INC 384/530=72%

    Not sure if the parser is missing those, or if the internal cooldown should be lowered to 0.45 seconds to make sure it can actually proc every 0.5 seconds. Of course it's not going to make a huge difference in overall dps, but still weird.

    Also reposting my own TGM parse from a few days ago.

    That is with TC passive. Compared to 58% crit chance from most other parses, I also got a few percent lower crit than expected. But that was in the normal variance range, there was not such a huge difference for me.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    kamokami said:


    *Note that something appears to be wrong with 2gun mojo. That crit chance is way too far off the other parses to be coincidence if anything it should be higher due to Furious. I suspect 2gun has lost its status as a single target power for the purposes of spec tree crit chance buffs....this may have happened when it went from a single target to an AoE and then back to single target again.

    Huh, yea that's some weird crit depression going on for TGM there. Its still not triggering stuff like Locus or Round Em Up when the AoE adv isn't taken. I mean, even deducting 6% crit from Focused Strike isn't enough for that gap. I didn't see that loss of crit for my TGM test either (was elevated due to TC), so this result is a bit of a head-scratcher.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    What specs were you using with 2GM? I did a parse and got what I expected, but the specs on my munitions toon are weird (and should probably be changed).
  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 727 Arc User
    Yeah, I made a thread about TGM and AR issue with one particular spec, Surprise Attack. I guess it not the only spec that both power isn't affecting so well. I want to say it has to do with that munition update where there that adv that treat it like an aoe as well.
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1209397/surprise-attack-does-not-work-with-assault-rifle-and-two-gun-mojo-maybe-other-power-too
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    qawsada said:

    Yeah, I made a thread about TGM and AR issue with one particular spec, Surprise Attack. I guess it not the only spec that both power isn't affecting so well. I want to say it has to do with that munition update where there that adv that treat it like an aoe as well.
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1209397/surprise-attack-does-not-work-with-assault-rifle-and-two-gun-mojo-maybe-other-power-too

    Hm, I assumed the spec was Guardicator when looking at the char sheet, but if that was actually using Avenger w/ RA and Surprise Attack, then the latter being bugged can explain the large %gap.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    How would you improve over an ego/dex/rec or ego/dex/end build (apart from PA), in a way that has some specific in set synergy and that ends up with better performance? And if you do end up with a bit higher dps on say dex/ego/rec or dex/ego/end, how would that be tied to 1 set?

    I wouldn't really expect dps numbers on a generic build to vary much between sets because it doesn't try to showcase what a set is capable of. Not interested in telling you how to "improve".


    Curious: Lightning Tendrils and now Scorching Ray?​​
    YouTube - Steam - Twitter
    [at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    qawsada said:

    *Surprise Attack*

    Mhm, yes that would make the difference in crit chance. I've never really considered using that spec for parsing myself. Does the spec work as advertised for the "targets above 90% health" part? I mean, does it actually stop working on lower health targets?
    sterga said:

    Not interested in telling you how to "improve".​​

    It's not about teaching me, it's about backing up your claim that builds need to be optimized per set to do proper parses. There are some specific sets that require some minor tinkering like force or PA, but most sets can be tested just fine with just one build in my experience.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 751 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I would be careful increasing the cost on incinerate, it's already almost impossible to keep the ammo above 90% in order for the rec prime spec to work correctly without a circle, and making it any higher will make it even more impossible.

    Edit: Any chance the passive could get an ammo bonus setup like the lightning one did that made end prime feasible? This one needs it too if you're going to use the fire will toggle.​​
    [NbK]XStorm
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Speaking of rec: basing a form on Rec is horrible, because Rec is a terrible stat to invest heavily in (it's nice to have small amounts of) -- the increase to equilibrium does nothing at all once equilibrium goes above max energy, the bonus to energy strength has strong diminishing returns, and the best feature of the Recovery primary stat tree (second wind) doesn't even scale with Recovery, it scales with your secondary superstats.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    nbkxs said:

    I would be careful increasing the cost on incinerate, it's already almost impossible to keep the ammo above 90% in order for the rec prime spec to work correctly without a circle, and making it any higher will make it even more impossible.

    Edit: Any chance the passive could get an ammo bonus setup like the lightning one did that made end prime feasible? This one needs it too if you're going to use the fire will toggle.​​

    Again, I think that's partly just cause atm Fiery Will's energy return isn't properly scaling w/ Rec. Once it does, I suspect Rec-focused Fire setups to have lots of energy generating potential.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 727 Arc User
    aiqa said:


    Mhm, yes that would make the difference in crit chance. I've never really considered using that spec for parsing myself. Does the spec work as advertised for the "targets above 90% health" part? I mean, does it actually stop working on lower health targets?

    Dummies are always above 90% and it kind of hard to tell if the spec drop when the target is below 90%.

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    qawsada said:


    Dummies are always above 90% and it kind of hard to tell if the spec drop when the target is below 90%.

    On pts, took a character in support role with r1 concussor beam (155 damage per tic) and no +crit except the spec (so 2.2% nominal rate). I continued to get a respectable rate of crits all the way down to zero on a (non-regen) dummy.

    Note that, working as intended, it's a terrible spec (an average of +1% crit rate over the fight), so a fix should probably make it check for >80% or something.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Ok full build rotation parses below. Here is the setup used for all of them:




    Sorcery and Larc powers and rotations were basically identical...except for the relevant bits (debuff, passive, eu). TK was slightly different due to the synergy requirements and what was optimal for the rotation. And Fire was of course very different in terms of powers for the same reasons.

    All parses were done at 50ft. Keep in mind that Larc is the most disadvantaged at this range.....it does its best at either 100ft or 10ft. TK does great at 100ft in addition to 50ft. Sorcery takes a substantial hit at 100ft and is best at 50ft. Fire is most advantaged at 50ft as most of its attacks are at this range....and is utterly worthless at 100ft.

    I did not test Munitions because 2-gun mojo is confirmed to be bugged and not working with the Surprise Attack spec. And PA crushes everything below as per usual.


    LARC: 6.75k DPS


    TK RANGED: 6.77k DPS


    SORCERY: 6.77k DPS


    FIRE: 7.1k DPS


    The point of these parses was to push each set of attack powers to see what their potential was. It's clear that Fire is higher. It was also a lot of fun to run the rotation. Considering that this is a test dummy parse and that Fire has no flexibility with regards to range, it seems to be appropriately stronger than the other sets.
    Post edited by kamokami on
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,535 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Note that, working as intended, it's a terrible spec (an average of +1% crit rate over the fight), so a fix should probably make it check for >80% or something.
    Honestly, just get rid of the energy threshold check. It works fine for something like Endurance, which gives you a huge pool to work with, but Recovery isn't like that. Making it a flat bonus would probably be best, since it means minimal BS for players to deal with and minimal bloat for the servers to get bogged down by. Everybody wins!

    Edit: That said, Recovery should probably get a few of its abilities tweaked. It really is a horrible specialization tree.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • surprise attack i would just name something else and give it a scaling crit chance buff that slowly decreases as your target's health does...that way it's not wasted spec points for more than the first second of a non-cosmic fight​​
    RIP Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks & Calvin Munerlyn

    blacklivesmatter.png

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    surprise attack i would just name something else and give it a scaling crit chance buff that slowly decreases as your target's health does...that way it's not wasted spec points for more than the first second of a non-cosmic fight​​

    Well, the intent is to allow one-shot kills I assume. I don't mind the >90%, it's just the buff needs to be bigger.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User

    surprise attack i would just name something else and give it a scaling crit chance buff that slowly decreases as your target's health does...that way it's not wasted spec points for more than the first second of a non-cosmic fight​​

    Well, the intent is to allow one-shot kills I assume. I don't mind the >90%, it's just the buff needs to be bigger.
    The whole avenger tree is focused on big spike aoe (fc). Surprise attack is not the defining spec of the tree, but a 20% crit bonus every time you start a fight with a fully charged fc is not useless at all.
  • spookyspectrespookyspectre Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Bug
    Where it happens: Casting Flame Prison and then Incinerate
    What happens: Incinerate's maintain cancels early. Sometimes even on a second attempt to maintain Incinerate. I'm not sure what seems to be interupting the maintain.

  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    aiqa said:

    surprise attack i would just name something else and give it a scaling crit chance buff that slowly decreases as your target's health does...that way it's not wasted spec points for more than the first second of a non-cosmic fight​​

    Well, the intent is to allow one-shot kills I assume. I don't mind the >90%, it's just the buff needs to be bigger.
    The whole avenger tree is focused on big spike aoe (fc). Surprise attack is not the defining spec of the tree, but a 20% crit bonus every time you start a fight with a fully charged fc is not useless at all.
    If you mean Force Cascade, that's AoE so it doesn't count for Surprise Attack (sadly). Its more-or-less best for opening w/ Sniper Rifle on a trash unit.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    flowcyto said:

    aiqa said:

    surprise attack i would just name something else and give it a scaling crit chance buff that slowly decreases as your target's health does...that way it's not wasted spec points for more than the first second of a non-cosmic fight​​

    Well, the intent is to allow one-shot kills I assume. I don't mind the >90%, it's just the buff needs to be bigger.
    The whole avenger tree is focused on big spike aoe (fc). Surprise attack is not the defining spec of the tree, but a 20% crit bonus every time you start a fight with a fully charged fc is not useless at all.
    If you mean Force Cascade, that's AoE so it doesn't count for Surprise Attack (sadly). Its more-or-less best for opening w/ Sniper Rifle on a trash unit.
    Good point.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    It's not about teaching me, it's about backing up your claim that builds need to be optimized per set to do proper parses. There are some specific sets that require some minor tinkering like force or PA, but most sets can be tested just fine with just one build in my experience.

    What I was pointing out is that different build goals can have different results. Someone that compares highest potential isn't going to use a generic build and they aren't wrong by default for having different results. Considering you aren't doing testing for different goals and no one cares if you do, the arguing seem pointless. Devs can figure out which parses to care about for their set performance goals.​​
    YouTube - Steam - Twitter
    [at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    sterga said:

    What I was pointing out is that different build goals can have different results. Someone that compares highest potential isn't going to use a generic build and they aren't wrong by default for having different results. Considering you aren't doing testing for different goals and no one cares if you do, the arguing seem pointless. Devs can figure out which parses to care about for their set performance goals.​​

    This whole argument started back in the Lightning review thread, where it was claimed Lightning could reach 6.7k dps while other sets could not. A parse for Lightning was provided, but no parses for other sets when using the same buffs. At the time I thought that just saying "for balancing purposes, you can't compare that parse to other parses that were made using other builds" would be convincing enough. But in this new Fire review it became clear that argument wasn't very convincing so I pushed some more.

    Highest potential itself, for 1 set, is not hugely important when talking about balance. And balance is the only thing that makes parses interesting for use in these power set reviews. No parse is wrong by default, but when using 1 parse with 1 build to make claims about power balance the conclusion can be a bit shaky.

    For example, I've done a second parse with tk lance some pages back. The difference between the results (5.8k dps in the first tk lance parse, 6.7k dps in the second) is achieved only by adding a 3rd AO, Ebon circle, and lowering my health to buff up imbue. I could have not told you about those differences, and just posted the Fire parse doing 6k dps and the tk lance parse doing 6.7k dps. But that would have had little worth when talking about balance, not to mention quite dishonest. The Fire build could have used exactly those same buffs for even higher dps.

    By now we have 3 people that posted parses for multiple sets with their own single build. And the dps across the sets is all very similar for all 3, but the dps was very different across the people doing the parses. So I think I can safely conclude it doesn't really matter all that much what build you use, as long as you only compare dps from parses using similar builds.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    Bug?: It seems that, via Fiery WIll's description, Firesnake, Leaping Flames, and Engulfing Flames are Burning effects, but if so they don't individually seem to proc Boundless Energy until/unless CF procs on its target(s). FW's tooltip seems to let on that they should, but I'm not certain about that.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,962 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    A new support suggestion...

    Suggestion - New Support Power - Endothermal - PBAoE Healing Maintain
    You draw heat and warmth out of a target, transferring it yourself and your allies, to revitalize yourselves. This process often leaves your targets weakened.


    - Pretty much a Fire version of Life Essence (I'd really like it to use similar animation to Life Essence that it took from Energy Storm)
    - Endothermal would function at 50ft range and have a 20ft PBAoE
    - Endothermal should innately apply Chill to a target upon full maintain of the power and have a slightly higher energy cost if necessary to accommodate this.
    - Endothermal should have a few advantages:

    1) "Scorch" which allows Endothermal to deal fire damage whilst maintained vs a target with clinging flames.
    2) "Enfeeble" which allows Endothermal to apply a strong snare to the target during the maintain.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,675 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Power Suggestion
    Kindling
    (Self-Heal similar to Bountiful Resurgence. Only that it has fire effect than chi.)
    Heals XXX hp every sec (depends on role) every sec and has a 10% chance to apply Clinging Flames to enemies within 15ft or 25ft. Scales with Recovery or Presence, whichever is higher. Lasts for 15secs.
    Advantages:

    2 pt Warmth: Heals allies around you for XXX hp every 3 secs.
    2 pt Fired Up!: Now gives you +6/8/10 Energy every 3 secs

    mfZ37eB.png
    __________________________________________________________________
    Alts:
    Lord Sans (Full Healer FF)/Axel Leonard (Crowd Controller/Off-Tank)
    - - - - - -
    Feel free to visit my websites!^^:
    DeviantART|FurAffinity|
    Twitter
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    For the people that don't have a good idea how things compare to PA, here is a parse (no circles used). To manage the energy cost I did have to change the build away from ego/dex/rec to ego/end/rec, and changed to distinguished efficiency gear.


    While other sets struggle to get to 6k dps (using similar buffs), PA gets to 8.5k. That is 40% higher dps than other sets.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    For the people that don't have a good idea how things compare to PA, here is a parse (no circles used). To manage the energy cost I did have to change the build away from ego/dex/rec to ego/end/rec, and changed to distinguished efficiency gear.


    While other sets struggle to get to 6k dps (using similar buffs), PA gets to 8.5k. That is 40% higher dps than other sets.

    How exactly are you getting those numbers and are able to maintain 3x toggles without circles? Yeah I don't see it, what is the build/gear/specs that you used?
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,962 Arc User
    nightr0d said:


    aiqa said:

    For the people that don't have a good idea how things compare to PA, here is a parse (no circles used). To manage the energy cost I did have to change the build away from ego/dex/rec to ego/end/rec, and changed to distinguished efficiency gear.


    While other sets struggle to get to 6k dps (using similar buffs), PA gets to 8.5k. That is 40% higher dps than other sets.

    How exactly are you getting those numbers and are able to maintain 3x toggles without circles? Yeah I don't see it, what is the build/gear/specs that you used?
    I'm probably the furthest thing from a truly well built pro PA DPS, but it isn't that difficult to run three toggles without a circle. I do it with EGO/REC/END w/ Overdrive (I do need better gear though)

    At a guess, aside from what has already been stated: (Ego/END/REC + Distinguished Efficiency Gear), I'd imagine maybe a Neuroelectric Pulse could have been used?

    Possibly Electric Form too? (TC is more likely though)
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User

    nightr0d said:


    aiqa said:

    For the people that don't have a good idea how things compare to PA, here is a parse (no circles used). To manage the energy cost I did have to change the build away from ego/dex/rec to ego/end/rec, and changed to distinguished efficiency gear.


    While other sets struggle to get to 6k dps (using similar buffs), PA gets to 8.5k. That is 40% higher dps than other sets.

    How exactly are you getting those numbers and are able to maintain 3x toggles without circles? Yeah I don't see it, what is the build/gear/specs that you used?
    I'm probably the furthest thing from a truly well built pro PA DPS, but it isn't that difficult to run three toggles without a circle. I do it with EGO/REC/END w/ Overdrive (I do need better gear though)

    At a guess, aside from what has already been stated: (Ego/END/REC + Distinguished Efficiency Gear), I'd imagine maybe a Neuroelectric Pulse could have been used?

    Possibly Electric Form too? (TC is more likely though)
    You can use 3 toggles without circles (I know it's possible) but he claimed 3x toggles without circles and doing 8.5k dps. Now that is something I'm interested in.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,962 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    nightr0d said:

    You can use 3 toggles without circles (I know it's possible) but he claimed 3x toggles without circles and doing 8.5k dps. Now that is something I'm interested in.

    She did, and I don't doubt it. (I mean the data is right there)

    Parses like this tend to push the limits (sometimes), so I would imagine the "standard" DUC was used along with the in set debuff...probably Electric Form to compliment the energy stats and the energy damage that was being pumped out.

    PA core 9...Overdrive...and some other stuff.

    You could try messing around with a base build around those three powers, EGO/END/REC + Concentration + RDPS role + Electric Form+ two AO's (maybe) and some other crazy stuff to try and achieve those values.

    I agree its insane, but it's good to see for comparison purposes.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    nightr0d said:

    You can use 3 toggles without circles (I know it's possible) but he claimed 3x toggles without circles and doing 8.5k dps. Now that is something I'm interested in.

    She did, and I don't doubt it. (I mean the data is right there)

    Parses like this tend to push the limits (sometimes), so I would imagine the "standard" DUC was used along with the in set debuff...probably Electric Form to compliment the energy stats and the energy damage that was being pumped out.

    PA core 9...Overdrive...and some other stuff.

    You could try messing around with a base build around those three powers, EGO/END/REC + Concentration + RDPS role + Electric Form+ two AO's (maybe) and some other crazy stuff to try and achieve those values.

    I agree its insane, but it's good to see for comparison purposes.
    I made a build on PTS that uses the standard stuff you mentioned and I can get 7.5k dps but not 8.5k. That's a whole 1k dps which I cannot account for and that build needs to use a circle to run 3x toggles. So the 8.5k dps 3x toggles no circle build sounds quite absurd.

    Even though there are numbers I don't know how those were gotten because from my tests that should not be possible. Was that using 3xAOs + toggles as well.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Just ego/rec/end with guardian/vindicator specs with the TC passive. I've used both LnL and imbue (at full health), like I did that for all the other parses (except the one TK lance parse where I explicitly stated I added some more buffs). The only sources of energy were overdrive, concentration and efficiency gear.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    aiqa said:

    Just ego/rec/end with guardian/vindicator specs with the TC passive. I've used both LnL and imbue, but I did that for all the other parses. The only sources of energy were overdrive, concentration and efficiency gear.

    Well I tested that build out and you can't do 8.5kdps with it so unless you actually post the build so I can reproduce the numbers from my tests your claims are impossible to actually do.

    EDIT: So I just tried the build without LnL and Imbue and I get around 6.5kdps. I will try it with those added but I doubt that will give me a whole 2kdps more.

    EDIT2: I tried adding 2xAO and the dps did not increase by much maybe 200-300 dps. So yeah I have no idea how you get 8.5kdps on that build.

    EDIT3: So apparently it's possible (just parsed aiqa on PTS) but I have no way to tell how that is the case. I cannot reproduce those numbers with the build specified so I'm suspecting that some sort of hidden/secret "exploit" to boost the damage is used. Can anyone else test to see if they can get 8.5k dps on an ego/rec/end build?
    Post edited by nightr0d on
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,962 Arc User
    nightr0d said:

    EDIT3: So apparently it's possible (just parsed aiqa on PTS) but I have no way to tell how that is the case. I cannot reproduce those numbers with the build specified so I'm suspecting that some sort of hidden/secret "exploit" to boost the damage is used. Can anyone else test to see if they can get 8.5k dps on an ego/rec/end build?

    I'd be curious as to what you think it could possibly be.

    If you've parsed with aiqa and seen that it is possible...I mean...you should be able to see powers wise what is affecting her DPS. I haven't parsed anything in years, so I don't take note of my own DPS.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    The difference in dps is probably just optimizations in timing. You can cancel the PA toggles to perfect that easily.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    aiqa said:

    The difference in dps is probably just optimizations in timing. You can cancel the PA toggles to perfect that easily.

    I didn't have to do that so I doubt that's the cause. Also I doubt maintain cancelling would lead to a 1k dps difference.

    I stopped to type stuff in chat during the test so I don't know how much that effected the results. Same setup. I think this is just fine considering how restricted PA is and how much toggle management there is - lightning doesn't come close to having those kinds of restrictions and management duty nor does any other set so this level of dps makes sense.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    I think this is just fine considering how restricted PA is and how much toggle management there is

    That is an interesting claim (even more so after the stuff that was edited out). What is so difficult about pressing 234, or 223344 if you don't want to bother with timing to much. And for all that management you already get the only set that does high dps at 100 feet with full mobility. And unlike many new sets PA doesn't depend on any status effect refreshes. In my opinion, any set that has to refresh any important status effect is at least is "difficult" to use as PA.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    nightr0d said:

    EDIT3: So apparently it's possible (just parsed aiqa on PTS) but I have no way to tell how that is the case. I cannot reproduce those numbers with the build specified so I'm suspecting that some sort of hidden/secret "exploit" to boost the damage is used. Can anyone else test to see if they can get 8.5k dps on an ego/rec/end build?

    I'd be curious as to what you think it could possibly be.

    If you've parsed with aiqa and seen that it is possible...I mean...you should be able to see powers wise what is affecting her DPS. I haven't parsed anything in years, so I don't take note of my own DPS.
    I just tried it out again and for the life of me I cannot get it to reach 8.5k. I've seen the parse and I can't guess what's going on. It's literally concussor beam, chest laser and eye beams and they do 8.5k while my build does 7.5k. Considering we are talking about 1k dps difference that's quite huge considering I was running the same powers on an almost identical build (at least I tried to use the same stats she said she had) and I still cannot reach 8.5k.

    The only other thing that I could think of is a macro for power rotations optimized for the timings. But could that really be the reason for the 1kdps difference?! And IF that is the case then the argument falls flat because nobody can do perfect rotations and during cosmics you cannot count on being able to perfectly time the toggles. I still suspect shenanigans going on here :D

    But again, I am curious if anyone else can get 8.5k dps on that build.
    spinnytop said:

    aiqa said:

    The difference in dps is probably just optimizations in timing. You can cancel the PA toggles to perfect that easily.

    I didn't have to do that so I doubt that's the cause. Also I doubt maintain cancelling would lead to a 1k dps difference.

    I stopped to type stuff in chat during the test so I don't know how much that effected the results. Same setup. I think this is just fine considering how restricted PA is and how much toggle management there is - lightning doesn't come close to having those kinds of restrictions and management duty nor does any other set so this level of dps makes sense.
    So you got 8.5k dps or am I misunderstanding what you were saying with the "I think this is just fine considering how restricted PA is" ?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Refreshing status effects is easy for other power sets. You just count how many maintains/charges between the cooldown on your refresh power and then you don't have to look at your hotbar at all - you can pay complete attention to the fight. With PA you have to pay attention to your hotbar more than any other set, which means your attention is split and split attention makes any task more difficult. Yes, there is no skill required in doing this on a targeting dummy, but the game does not consist of dpsing targeting dummies.

    Then there's the issue of ramp up. Other sets, you push down the button for your main nuke and you're doing full dps right away. With power armor you have to get three maintains up and running, which means in block-heavy situations you're often going to miss out on the opportunity to do full dps. Lightning may have had a comeback for this before when LA had ramp up, but that's no longer the case.

    Then there's the restrictiveness of the set. PA maintains lock out anything else, and there's a delay after toggles go off before something else can be used, which makes it difficult for PA toons to use many useful tools as effectively as a set that doesn't have that restriction. This includes heals and ADs, as well as many stuns and knocks. PA is often forced to live or die on its damage output, something that the other sets do not share.

    PA has a list of reasons to justify its dps. Lightning, and other ranged dps sets do about the same dps because they don't have any list whatsoever to set them apart from one another - except fire, which has "50 range". How big you consider each entry on PA's list is up to you, but the fact that it has a list with several entries, and the other sets don't have a list at all, is something that must be considered.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I would like to add the Gear requirements to your list. I do not believe there is a set out there that is as gear dependent to run.

    I still cannot get 8.5k tho -_-
This discussion has been closed.