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Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    AOPM is nice and all, but i've gained a new appreciation for AOED - and those who build it well - after the dino fight i was involved in last night...must've failed the DPS check over a dozen times before someone swapped to an AOED support, and then the entire fight turned from an exercise in futility to a cakewalk literally instantaneously​​
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    So yesterday I used my Regen tank as soak tank on Ape. Only got KOed about a dozen times and most were when I missed a block.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User

    So yesterday I used my Regen tank as soak tank on Ape. Only got KOed about a dozen times and most were when I missed a block.

    Regen is plenty for a soak tank; it just struggles at solo tanking. A normal punch through an R3 block on a juggernaut-wardicator tank does about a bit under 8k to a defiance tank, 11k to a regen tank, or 13k to a regen tank that wasn't at max hp. That won't one-shot, but in combination with something else it can easily be death.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,927 Arc User

    So yesterday I used my Regen tank as soak tank on Ape. Only got KOed about a dozen times and most were when I missed a block.

    To be fair, my tank uses Defiance and I also get KO'd when I miss a block. And even sometimes if I don't, if the healers aren't pushing heals hard enough. Tanks aren't really expected to be self sufficient in that fight.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,779 Arc User
    Test out your regen tank as an off-tank.
    Go to Q Warzone, and find groups of tough mobs, and see how long you can kite them. If you can do it indefinitely, you have a good OT.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    I can do that pretty much endlessly with Strength of Takofanes.

    Speaking of Tako.... that's a good example of the sort of thing I meant earlier. The adds in his boss fight need to be dealt with, but not by the main group.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,779 Arc User
    Strength of Takofanes isn't a good test for an OT that will be used in QWZ or TA. Doesn't put out enough damage.
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  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 68 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    avianos said:

    Here is an Idea

    How about creating NEW content instead of recycling existing one over and over again?​​

    You don't start building a new house until you made sure the one you're working on now is built right. Fact is our playerbase was so weak when Cosmics were first updated that it was very difficult to tell just what the long term "right strength" for cosmics was going to be. As time has gone on we've continually proven that cosmics were still not strong enough to face up to the community's potential. Someone once told me "As a dev you make an encounter that you're pretty sure is impossible, and then players have it on farm two weeks later". That's what's been happening here. The cosmic content may be new, but it's not finished yet and it still needs to be adjusted - they can't just keep expanding the game's content if what's here now isn't right. Just be happy we got a really long grace period where we were allowed to farm them because the devs underestimated us and were too busy to keep up with our growing potential.

    Oh and like Vixy pointed out they have been adding new content o3o
    Indeed. People like easy go as planned things. God forbid you boot em outta the box! Personally I think devs should up the difficultly and then Destroyer should swoop in and raze MC .... again. Knock us all back to the stone age. That would alleviate some boredom and monotony. Now you may burn me at the stake for speaking such blasphemy!
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User

    Strength of Takofanes isn't a good test for an OT that will be used in QWZ or TA. Doesn't put out enough damage.

    Hmm... What about Fred C. Dos? Back when the cowboy robot thing was up I tanked him several times.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    Incidentally, Negalodon reminded me of the easy way to make Tuff DPS practical: have sufficient levels of untankable damage that squishies die like flies. The problem is making tough and squishy dps viable at the same fight, because the basic thing about durability is that excess beyond what you need to survive and function doesn't do anything useful.
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 965 Arc User
    I came in late, but I do want to point out that the Cosmic content IS already difficult and takes a lot of time. Sure, the actual kill time might be only 10 minutes, but you have to count the often 30+ minutes of organizing, waiting for the right roles to show up.

    Hybrids and useless Shield roles tend to be fairly irrelevant if we otherwise have a decent mix. 5 or 6 vets can carry everyone else with little contribution from the other 30+ people there. #truthhurts So, I see the hybrid/shield/tuffDPS issue as a non-issue in actual combat. There seem to be more of them at fights now than in the past, and with the exception of Eddie, completion time is still pretty fast.

    Where they really drag time is in setup. If we have a bunch of low-contributors, we need to wait until enough of the high-contributors to show up before we can start. So, that is where the problem comes in.

    I admire the OPs desire to give these characters something more interesting to do than mooch, but I have no such interest. The problem is that most people who play underperforming characters don't really care to contribute. They are just there to mooch. So, if you tried to give them something useful to do, it is unlikely they would take on the responsibility.

    I am more inclined to encourage them to do better. My suggestion would be to raise the loot threshold to 500,000 (yes, I know o.O). The real issue with this is that ACTUAL contribution would need to be figured, instead of the clumsy method used now.

    What I mean is that, for example, I often show up with my CCer, even when not CCing. This is because her 95 point AoPM and defense debuffs actually contribute more to damage than just a bland DPS. (She can also backup heal and keep a tank up in case a healer goes down temporarily) But, she does not get credit for all that additional damage she is causing other players to do. So she actually gets a LOWER score by helping everyone else get a HIGHER score. I mean, she is adding a couple hundred DPS to most people, but they get credit for it, instead of her.

    Other retunings of the algorithm would need to be made, as well, including the oft-suggested damage-mitigated instead of damage-taken. But, again, all of this is doable with tweaks in the calculations, it just depends on if the old Model T can handle Nitrous.

    That would need to be fixed, and it could be; however, I do realize this would require a lot more calculations being made during combat, and since the engine can barely handle what we have now, this might not be possible. But, if it COULD be done, it would certainly fix the problem of moochers. It would also reflect a more realistic contribution in the final scoring and might even encourage more people to play buffers/debuffers, which would speed the fights up even more.

    Again, the place this would really speed things up is the organizing time because people would be less likely to show up with underperforming characters. I expect the Cosmics would need to be retuned to be tougher, too, otherwise the fights would go ridiculously fast.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Hmm last night I managed to soak tank ape without dying once. :D On the same regen tank that got KOed a dozen times last time. The difference was mainly in learning to guess when Ape was gonna hit me.

    Oh and here's a video example of what I like about the Tako fight:


    You can't really have all the DPS guys chase Doomlords all the time. You need to have a group that focuses on DPSing Tako, while others run around smashing Doomlords.

    Where they really drag time is in setup. If we have a bunch of low-contributors, we need to wait until enough of the high-contributors to show up before we can start. So, that is where the problem comes in.

    I admire the OPs desire to give these characters something more interesting to do than mooch, but I have no such interest. The problem is that most people who play underperforming characters don't really care to contribute. They are just there to mooch. So, if you tried to give them something useful to do, it is unlikely they would take on the responsibility.

    You seem to have misunderstood, it's not so much a question of bad builds vs good builds, but defining what is useful.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User

    You can't really have all the DPS guys chase Doomlords all the time.

    Well, you could -- they only spawn every 20s and have 500k hp, so if you have 50k dps available they'll go down in 10s and you have another 10s to shoot at Tako. In practice, there are always enough people focus firing Tako that you should go after Doomlords full time.

    You seem to have misunderstood, it's not so much a question of bad builds vs good builds, but defining what is useful.

    The question is whether changing which build types are useful would make any difference to people who currently use hybrids.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    Yes, I'd considered that, but the level of cat herding required to get the DPS to shift fire every time a Doomlord spawns...
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 965 Arc User

    Hmm last night I managed to soak tank ape without dying once. :D On the same regen tank that got KOed a dozen times last time. The difference was mainly in learning to guess when Ape was gonna hit me.

    Oh and here's a video example of what I like about the Tako fight:


    You can't really have all the DPS guys chase Doomlords all the time. You need to have a group that focuses on DPSing Tako, while others run around smashing Doomlords.

    Where they really drag time is in setup. If we have a bunch of low-contributors, we need to wait until enough of the high-contributors to show up before we can start. So, that is where the problem comes in.

    I admire the OPs desire to give these characters something more interesting to do than mooch, but I have no such interest. The problem is that most people who play underperforming characters don't really care to contribute. They are just there to mooch. So, if you tried to give them something useful to do, it is unlikely they would take on the responsibility.

    You seem to have misunderstood, it's not so much a question of bad builds vs good builds, but defining what is useful.
    Um... you just contradicted yourself.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User

    You seem to have misunderstood, it's not so much a question of bad builds vs good builds, but defining what is useful.

    Um... you just contradicted yourself.
    Not necessarily. Good and bad builds are not universal, they depend on the content.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,927 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Um... you just contradicted yourself.

    Not really. There is a very clear difference. For example, tank builds are currently defined as useful. This, however, does not make all tank builds good. Currently hybrid builds are defined as not useful, however there are still some very good hybrid builds that will even outperform many people's dps builds (because their builds are not good, despite being defined as useful). This is an example of how a build can be defined as "not useful" but still be a good build.

    The definition of "useful" is up to the design of the encounter. Wether a build is good or bad depends on its performance.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User

    You seem to have misunderstood, it's not so much a question of bad builds vs good builds, but defining what is useful.

    Um... you just contradicted yourself.
    Not necessarily. Good and bad builds are not universal, they depend on the content.
    Yeah, a truly bad build is something that doesn't do what it's designed to do. This is qualitative, so there are varying degrees of it. Some builds are truly pathetic while others are merely weak.
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