Aspect of the machine

ryokoryu · October 2017

Ok looking at the detailed info it seems to me Aspect of the Machine is inferior in every way to other forms except maybe IDF. First of all it seems that the bonus per stack is less than other forms as per the advanced description in game looking at forms scaling off of ego and str for their specializations, but also the lesser bonuses for melee with concentration and ranged with unstoppable will be higher due t the higher stack counts as well. The lower stack count overall is also low and thus even when at full stacks any other form seems to be better for damage. While this is coupled with the kill to stack aspect it really has no redeeming qualities. Am I missing some advantage it has? going off base numbers 6.8 bonus per stack at 5 stacks is 34 while the 4.8 bonus for melee on concentration at 8 stacks is 38.4.

revanantmorituri · October 2017

Nope, you've nailed it. Even the AT the form was designed for no longer uses it.

magpieuk2014 · October 2017

The damage output is fine - it's actually greater than other forms if you can maintain it - the problem is that the stacks don't generate energy when you get them and that (obviously) it's impossible to maintain the stacks against a single target (like a boss). It should really work as ; stacks up to 5 and boosts both melee and ranged, energy boost on gaining a stack, followed by a 15 second period of substantial additional damage when you've got all five stacks (call it Frenzy!) to compensate for the eventual drop off of the stacks.

ryokoryu · October 2017

how does it get more damage at full stacks when it gives less of a boost per stack and has less stacks overall

spinnytop · October 2017

The advantage it has is that it gives equal damage bonus to both melee and ranged, and in higher amounts than any other form that gives equal bonus to both. At 3 stacks ( which you can maintain easily by ranking it to 3 ) it has almost as much damage bonus as one of the specialized forms.

This is, the whole "Equal damage to both melee and ranged" is something people often claim is important to them, but it never seems to be important enough for them to sacrifice anything for it. AotM was a great experiment in testing if people mean what they say about what they want.

jonesing4 · October 2017

If you rank it up to 3 (so that you always have 3 stacks), and use it in a build that isn’t very energy hungry, it’s really not that bad. Plus, its stacking mechanic is so worthless that you don’t even need to pay attention to it; in an alert/cosmic/group setting, you’re almost never going to be able to stack it past the resting number anyway, so you can pick/use any powers you want. So you trade energy management and a bit (but not a TON) of damage for melee/ranged equality and the ability to totally ignore your number of toggle stacks. I use it sometimes for variety.

All that being said, it would obviously be better to have a ranged/melee form that offered energy and the ability to use its full potential in all content.

aesica · October 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

The advantage it has is that it gives equal damage bonus to both melee and ranged

Except that argument falls apart when you realize it stacks based on the higher of strength (melee) or ego (ranged). So unless you're willing to stack both of them equally, you're still making the same choice as with other forms.

If it was instead based on int or dex, both of which would make more sense for machines as well as both being ranged/melee neutral, only then would it truly be an equal boost to melee and ranged.

Of course, then there's the ranged vs melee role selection to contend with.

spinnytop wrote: »

AotM was a great experiment in testing if people mean what they say about what they want.

If that's the case, it was conducted poorly, both because of what I mentioned above as well as the fact that it doesn't stack as reliably or even in the same way as other forms.

If you really want a "great experiment" regarding the mixture of melee and ranged, and to see if people really wanted that, then the following would need to happen:

Aspect of the Machine
Scales with the higher of int or dex. Stacks up to 8 times. Every time you charge or maintain a power all the way, gain a stack. When using the hybrid role, damage bonuses are increased enough to compensate for the gap between hybrid and ranged/melee damage roles.

And there you have it, a real, legitimate option to see if people actually want to use ranged and melee together.

Spoiler: I don't use the current Aspect of the Machine because it's a terribly designed form with a lousy stacking condition and stats that encourage a choice between range and melee, not because I have no interest in mixing ranged and melee.

ryokoryu · October 2017

spinnytop said:
The advantage it has is that it gives equal damage bonus to both melee and ranged, and in higher amounts than any other form that gives equal bonus to both. At 3 stacks ( which you can maintain easily by ranking it to 3 ) it has almost as much damage bonus as one of the specialized forms.

This is, the whole "Equal damage to both melee and ranged" is something people often claim is important to them, but it never seems to be important enough for them to sacrifice anything for it. AotM was a great experiment in testing if people mean what they say about what they want.

Unfortunately AOTM still gives less overall bonus due to low stacks and unlikeliness to even be able to maintain 5 stacks. at 5 stacks both melee and range get base bonuses of 34% total while a person using concentration will get melee bonuses at full stacks of 38.4% so someone going hybrid will still get better damage in BOTH melee and ranged damage and that assumes you can keep 5 stacks. Even if you were using this on a speed solo build you would have weaker damage on BOTH melee and ranged than a melee or range specific form. Yeah it boosts both by equal amounts but your better off using enrage for a force toon than this. the math puts it behind on EVERY comparison outside of IDF which does no damage boost, that is a support form. In it's current form it has no advantage, it would need 3 more max stacks to make it better for a hybrid speed clearing solo mission runner. BTW there is no good reason people need to sacrifice damage to run a hybrid damage character anyway in this game. the mechanics don't really provide for a significant advantage in it if any.

vonqball · October 2017

Yeah the powers that be really seem to love the ol range/melee segregation. TK got 2 toggles, both of em based on dex. Gotta keep the melee and ranged characters in their own neat lil boxes.

spinnytop · October 2017

ryokoryu said:

Unfortunately AOTM still gives less overall bonus due to low stacks and unlikeliness to even be able to maintain 5 stacks.

Yes, and despite some people's claims this is not a worthy sacrifice to have both melee and ranged have the same damage bonus. You should see the passionate arguments people make for needing that... but when it comes down to it, it's not important to them at all.

spinnytop · October 2017

aesica said:

Except that argument falls apart when you realize it stacks based on the higher of strength (melee) or ego (ranged). So unless you're willing to stack both of them equally, you're still making the same choice as with other forms.

I see you don't realize how little Str and Ego damage bonuses actually effect your damage. I'll add it to the list.

vonqball · October 2017

spinnytop said:
Yes, and despite some people's claims this is not a worthy sacrifice to have both melee and ranged have the same damage bonus. You should see the passionate arguments people make for needing that... but when it comes down to it, it's not important to them at all.

So, because people don't want to spend 4 adv points to have lower damage, and no energy generation, they don't really care about having hybrid damage options? You are the opposite of a mind reader.

Defending AotM is futile, we all know its trash tier.

spinnytop · October 2017

vonqball said:
So, because people don't want to spend 4 adv points to have lower damage, and no energy generation, they don't really care about having hybrid damage options?

People don't want to sacrifice anything whatsoever. They basically want a version of Form of the Tempest that gives max bonus to both ranged and melee. And yes, that was in fact suggested at one point. It's essentially a case of "this is important to me so long as I give up nothing".

vonqball · October 2017

spinnytop said:
People don't want to sacrifice anything whatsoever. They basically want a version of Form of the Tempest that gives max bonus to both ranged and melee. And yes, that was in fact suggested at one point. It's essentially a case of "this is important to me so long as I give up nothing".

That is an extreme position, but I think your stance is equally unbalanced. Gameplay-wise, the benefits of a ranged/melee hybrid toggle would be quite small. I think a small hit to efficiency would be appropriate... but AotM is not a small hit by any stretch.

revanantmorituri · October 2017

Before I add any commentary to this thread that will irritate somebody, does anyone have a link to the theoretical damage formulas for this game? Because if damage stats have only marginal effects on damage, something is horribly broken.

spinnytop · October 2017

revanantmorituri said:
Before I add any commentary to this thread that will irritate somebody, does anyone have a link to the theoretical damage formulas for this game? Because if damage stats have only marginal effects on damage, something is horribly broken.

Not sure why that would mean it's horribly broken. Your damage stat is whatever you're using to scale up your Form. Not every melee character should have to stack Strength, and not every Ranged character should have to stack Ego. Forms give you more freedom than that( heck even AotM does ). Strength and Ego give a bit of a bonus.

vonqball said:
Defending AotM is futile, we all know its trash tier.

Btw if you think I'm defending AotM you missed the point. My argument is that what AotM represents is irrelevant. The form should be completely rethought and none of its current ideas should be reimplemented.

magpieuk2014 · October 2017

You'll be wanting Kamokami's Endgame DPS thread in Builds and Roles. Don't ask me to explain it, because I can't.

There is a lot more stopping range and melee working together in this game than a toggle form like AoTM, tbh.

Overall I disagree the power is trash. It may be "sub-optimal" from a Spreadsheets Online point of view but from a theme and gameplay perspective it's actually quite fun. The damage stacks are added quickly, and they drop off quickly, which promotes an aggressive style of gameplay not found elsewhere. It should be made to give more of a "feast or famine" effect in keeping with the theme of a machine which feeds off the defeat of others but lapses when there is nothing to feed on; generating energy and perhaps even giving bonus rewards if maintained at 5 stacks for a significant period of time, giving nothing if the enemy is not killed.

The new Automaton AT is a right laugh if played ultra-aggressive, btw: (toggle on your EB and you'll have to attack everything in your path...) and a reformed AoTM would go nicely with it.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

revanantmorituri said:
Before I add any commentary to this thread that will irritate somebody, does anyone have a link to the theoretical damage formulas for this game? Because if damage stats have only marginal effects on damage, something is horribly broken.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/239794/mecha-teddys-attribute-and-passive-scaling-thread/p1

Adding a hundred points of STR gets you 7.4% from stats, and gets you 26.4% from enrage.

flowcyto · October 2017

I do hope they revisit AotM and make it more functional, but unique. Reforming the Automaton to be w/o it strikes me as the devs not being happy w/ it. But we'll see, I guess.

shadowolf505 · October 2017

My thoughts on this is that the Devs have decided to 'fix' this after doing the reviews that they have planned.

pwestolemyname · October 2017

I tried using AoTM on a Force build. The idea was that at R3 it was more of a bonus from a standing start than any other form at R3. The toon was designed to be an alpha strike killer. Basically, stand at 100' and wipe out a full mob with 1 shot. There were a bunch of problems with that strategy, particularly that it was not fun in a group. Then, once Cosmics came along, they pretty much ruined any benefit that AoTM might have had.

ryokoryu · October 2017

spinnytop said:

ryokoryu said:

Unfortunately AOTM still gives less overall bonus due to low stacks and unlikeliness to even be able to maintain 5 stacks.
Yes, and despite some people's claims this is not a worthy sacrifice to have both melee and ranged have the same damage bonus. You should see the passionate arguments people make for needing that... but when it comes down to it, it's not important to them at all.

Again your missing the point. Giving us a full stack of 8 might make it a viable speed clearing hybrid form that makes sense in a niche, as it stands however your better off using enrage for force cascade. That is a melee form giving a much smaller boost per stack to ranged. If they did better math and put it at 7.8 per stack for each type of attack they would again be in better shape and still behind. Nothing less than 8 base bonus per stack would work which would still be less than the full bonus of a specialized form and being 8 base and stacking to 8 would put it right where it should be IF you think there should be a sacrifice of some sort of effectiveness. This is part of a school of outdated thinking from an era where game mechanics needed this division for the significant advantages that being able to hit at range had over melee and vice verse. With lunges, reverse lunges, pulls, and repels the mechanics of this game do not need those differences as the advantages are pretty well nullified. I play both forms of DPS and even in cosmics there is little to no difference in how I play. it goes like this, use big damage, use big damage, block AOE, use big damage. In this game a hybrid is more of a tank/DPS, support/tank, support/DPS. the division of range and melee the way it is is deliberate and artificial.

magpieuk2014 said:
You'll be wanting Kamokami's Endgame DPS thread in Builds and Roles. Don't ask me to explain it, because I can't.

There is a lot more stopping range and melee working together in this game than a toggle form like AoTM, tbh.

Overall I disagree the power is trash. It may be "sub-optimal" from a Spreadsheets Online point of view but from a theme and gameplay perspective it's actually quite fun. The damage stacks are added quickly, and they drop off quickly, which promotes an aggressive style of gameplay not found elsewhere. It should be made to give more of a "feast or famine" effect in keeping with the theme of a machine which feeds off the defeat of others but lapses when there is nothing to feed on; generating energy and perhaps even giving bonus rewards if maintained at 5 stacks for a significant period of time, giving nothing if the enemy is not killed.

The new Automaton AT is a right laugh if played ultra-aggressive, btw: (toggle on your EB and you'll have to attack everything in your path...) and a reformed AoTM would go nicely with it.

Except other forms pretty much do the same thing, stack up quickly and decay fast. the only issue is the lack of stacks and the lack of being able to use this effectively against anything that lives longer than 16 seconds. Again I could see this as a speed clearing niche power with tweaks but as it is there is no reason. Think of the following as a design change. Let's keep a small penalty in damage for the hybrid state of it just for arguments sake. Stacks up to 8 times, gives a stack on kill, 25% chance to gain a stack on crit (to be adjusted with testing) 8% base per stack scales with the higher of dex, rec, end. The adaptability here also allows for viable recovery and end builds which may allow for more adaptive and diverse builds. The high cost powers in some power sets may thus have good alternatives to STR and EGO cost reductions and add some variety for perhaps some real hybrid buids.

aesica · October 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

I see you don't realize how little Str and Ego damage bonuses actually effect your damage. I'll add it to the list.

Cute. The point is that it still does affect the damage and thus, anyone trying to minmax is still pushed into choosing.

spinnytop wrote: »

People don't want to sacrifice anything whatsoever. They basically want a version of Form of the Tempest that gives max bonus to both ranged and melee. And yes, that was in fact suggested at one point. It's essentially a case of "this is important to me so long as I give up nothing".

Why do people need to "give up something" in this particular case? That's completely nonsensical. Let's say I want a ranged single target attack but a melee pbaoe attack. I choose concentration as my form, but it just as easily could've been any other ranged form. Alright, so why does the melee attack need to be weakened by my form choice when instead, I can just take a ranged sphere attack like Lightning Storm and then say "I'm only going to use this when things are within melee range of me." Should my Lightning Storm be weaker when things are in melee range? If anything, I'm already "giving something up" by choosing a melee-range PBAoE over a ranged sphere attack. Or with my ranged ST attack. I'm already "giving something up" by choosing something that's probably rooty and more energy intensive due to being a ranged attack.

spinnytop · October 2017

For every benefit you need to give up something, otherwise you begin the inexorable slide towards dominant strategy.

magpieuk2014 · October 2017

Except other forms pretty much do the same thing, stack up quickly and decay fast.

They do, but it's pretty easy to maintain them, whereas with AoTM it's not. If I use Concentration it's child's play to keep adding one stack here and there to keep the whole eight stacked. With AoTM they would drop off unless I moved fast and was aggressive, and they'd drop off completely against bosses if they didn't spawn adds.

If you wanted to take the concept to the extreme (and to be honest, I think they should) AoTM's stacks should give even bigger bonuses so that there's a real surge feel to it..... almost like an AO effect.

aesica · October 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

For every benefit you need to give up something, otherwise you begin the inexorable slide towards dominant strategy.

How is mixing the two a benefit, though? As stated in my example, someone using a range-focused form and single target attack who chooses the melee PBAoE over the ranged lightning storm is actually giving up the flexibility of a ranged aoe by choosing the melee one. Lightning storm can be used at range or melee, whereas a melee PBAoE is limited to melee.

The "giving something up" has already happened.

Consider the possibility that you're defending the ranged vs melee segregation in this game because it's something you've grown used to, not because it's an actual balancing factor in a well-designed system.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

aesica said:

Consider the possibility that you're defending the ranged vs melee segregation in this game because it's something you've grown used to, not because it's an actual balancing factor in a well-designed system.

The max single target dps powers in the game are melee. The best area effect attacks are all ranged (mostly because enemies are rarely willing to group up closely enough to reliable hit target cap with melee range). A number of utility damage add powers are also ranged. Thus, being able to use both melee and ranged at full effect would be a noticeable power buff, and should have an associated cost. I'm not convinced that aspect of the machine succeeds at being the right penalty, but there should certainly be something.

aesica · October 2017

pantagruel01 wrote: »

The max single target dps powers in the game are melee. The best area effect attacks are all ranged (mostly because enemies are rarely willing to group up closely enough to reliable hit target cap with melee range). A number of utility damage add powers are also ranged. Thus, being able to use both melee and ranged at full effect would be a noticeable power buff, and should have an associated cost. I'm not convinced that aspect of the machine succeeds at being the right penalty, but there should certainly be something.

Rather than being a valid reason to continue keeping them segregated, I'd say that's more a symptom of another problem. Specifically, the decision to "balance" short range vs long range attacks by making the short range attacks stronger.

I suspect you'd know better than I would, but with melee attacks being stronger in single target, does that mean most people who take cosmics seriously use melee attacks?

pantagruel01 · October 2017

aesica said:
I suspect you'd know better than I would, but with melee attacks being stronger in single target, does that mean most people who take cosmics seriously use melee attacks?

Most of the cosmics don't have dps thresholds that are high enough for the difference to matter.

aesica · October 2017

That's what I expected. Without any segregation dividing melee and ranged, some would probably take the minmax route you mentioned, but not everyone would. Different people like different styles, so someone taking ranged single target, but melee aoe, or just pure melee/pure ranged in spite of the now-present option to mix the two is just as likely.

spinnytop · October 2017

aesica said:

Consider the possibility that you're defending the ranged vs melee segregation in this game because it's something you've grown used to, not because it's an actual balancing factor in a well-designed system.

Okay, considering it now. Hmmm... nope, still coming to the same conclusion.

kallethen · October 2017

Where AotM falls apart is the condition needed to generate a stack of the buff. Having it be only on dealing a 'killing blow' to enemies makes the Form terrible for A) boss fights and

team play. Guess what most of the end game content is centered around? Boss fights and team play.

spinnytop wrote: »

So, because people don't want to spend 4 adv points to have lower damage, and no energy generation, they don't really care about having hybrid damage options?

People don't want to sacrifice anything whatsoever. They basically want a version of Form of the Tempest that gives max bonus to both ranged and melee. And yes, that was in fact suggested at one point. It's essentially a case of "this is important to me so long as I give up nothing".

It's not that I wouldn't put up with sacrifice. I could live without the energy return that other forms have. I could live with having a lower maximum damage bonus compared to other forms. But to have a condition that actively goes against the current gameplay direction (team play and boss fights) is a bit much of a sacrifice. It's that condition that had kept me away from the power besides using it on the original Automaton progression.

ryokoryu · October 2017

pantagruel01 said:

aesica said:

Consider the possibility that you're defending the ranged vs melee segregation in this game because it's something you've grown used to, not because it's an actual balancing factor in a well-designed system.
The max single target dps powers in the game are melee. The best area effect attacks are all ranged (mostly because enemies are rarely willing to group up closely enough to reliable hit target cap with melee range). A number of utility damage add powers are also ranged. Thus, being able to use both melee and ranged at full effect would be a noticeable power buff, and should have an associated cost. I'm not convinced that aspect of the machine succeeds at being the right penalty, but there should certainly be something.

While the number of large damage single target abilities may in fact be higher in melee this is simply not true, nor is it true that those abilities will put out more DPS than the ranged AOE stuff. Force Cascade is a good example. While not a single target ability you will certainly be able to come almost right up to the best melee in single target and this is not even the most DPS of the ranged lot. Sniper Riffle also has extreme single target possibility.

spinnytop said:
For every benefit you need to give up something, otherwise you begin the inexorable slide towards dominant strategy.

while this would be true if there were a real significant advantage to ranged or melee attacks in this game the mechanics don't play that out. The school of thought of separating these 2 comes from a long line of outdated ideas that have proven to be less tha universal as they were once considered to be. Hybrid DPS characters in MMOs of yesteryear kept their hybrids DPS less than that of say a pure caster or pure melee for example. They would argue that their ability to be flexible was a good reason to do this, and then they proceeded to make content that created opportunities for the flexibility to be used. What ended up being the result is in a raid it was just simply better to bring 10 wizards and 10 rogues for example instead of 4 wizards, 4 rogues, and any mix of hybrid DPS classes. would raids include those hybrids? yes because it was a lot easier than trying to find 12 more people good enough to play the raid pulling those classes. This caused less than optimal raid performance which the solution to this issue was to give the hybrids raid wide benefit utility. Same goes for the group they used their group buffs to help the group. They compensated by making the hybrid DPS make everyone better. In CO this is not an option as to do this effectively you need to be a support. If your a support you are most definitely NOT a DPS and if you show up to Teliosaurus as a hybrid trying to do some support your just gonna piss off the supports for making them less effective at what they do and thus being an overall detriment to your run. By the way changing ALL forms to effect both would STILL leave you taking a LOSS of damage to one type or another being as one kind would only be 75% as effective as the other one. You may have said you "considered it" but you didn't really as doing so would have required you to honestly question your ideas overall and you were not willing to do that.

spinnytop · October 2017

ryokoryu said:

While the number of large damage single target abilities may in fact be higher in melee this is simply not true, nor is it true that those abilities will put out more DPS than the ranged AOE stuff.

You need to spend some time in the powerhouse with a parser. Melee gives the highest damage potential in the game. There's a reason that when we had a dps contest the goal for ranged was 5.5k, while the goal for melee was 7k.

Also, ranged absolutely gives advantages, huge ones in fact. That's so basic to the game that it's mind boggling how anyone could not know that. It's like someone saying "Oh the fire flower in super mario bros doesn't give you any advantage over just jumping on things".

aesica · October 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

Also, ranged absolutely gives advantages, huge ones in fact.

Those advantages aren't nearly as significant as they are in other games though, such as your favorite one, WoW. CO has gap closers with stupidly-short cooldowns (3 sec? really?) and roots/snares/stuns/etc attached that practically guarantee you'll be able to get into melee range if you aren't already--barring the occasional weird failure, of course. I mean, it's so easy to get into melee range in this game that the only real disadvantage melee has is that it can be easier to get caught in a boss's cone attack if the tank goes full potato and spins it around, loses aggro, etc.

vonqball · October 2017

I thought running 3 PA toggles had the highest dps potential.

spinnytop · October 2017

vonqball said:
I thought running 3 PA toggles had the highest dps potential.

For ranged yes.

aesica said:

Those advantages aren't nearly as significant as they are in other games though, such as your favorite one, WoW.

You are correct they are not as significant. They are more significant, because of Travel Powers.

You think the only issue is getting into range to attack your current target? Interesting. I'll add it to the list.

aesica · October 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

You are correct they are not as significant. They are more significant, because of Travel Powers.

Care to explain that one? If anything, most travel powers considerably reduce the disadvantages of melee compared to ranged even more.

spinnytop wrote: »

You think the only issue is getting into range to attack your current target?

aesica wrote: »

I mean, it's so easy to get into melee range in this game that the only real disadvantage melee has is that it can be easier to get caught in a boss's cone attack if the tank goes full potato and spins it around, loses aggro, etc.

I mean sure, maybe there's other disadvantages melee has. Feel free to share instead of trying to "gotcha" me.

spinnytop wrote: »

Interesting. I'll add it to the list.

"The list?" Oh wait, you're doing "it" again.

eviltwintwo wrote: »

Sometimes your replies leave a lot to be desired. You may not intend it, but it can sound condescending.

spinnytop wrote: »

It would help me work on it if people could give me specific examples of why that is u3u

pantagruel01 · October 2017

aesica said:

I mean sure, maybe there's other disadvantages melee has. Feel free to share instead of trying to "gotcha" me.

The primary disadvantages of melee are:

Many NPCs do higher damage in melee than at range.
Time to engage target. This is usually not an issue in boss fights, as bosses tend to be immobile, but it can be a significant hassle if rapid target switching is needed or if the boss is fond of moving about.
Target motion. Most bosses don't move around much, but lower ranked stuff does, and it doesn't take a lot of motion for attacks to miss.
Alpha strike potential. The effective range of melee powers is less than the aggro radius of foes, so if you run up and try to charge an attack, there's a good chance you'll be attacked before it goes off. Ranged can easily charge an attack without drawing aggro. Again, this is mostly not an issue for boss fights.
Area attack splash. Some bosses have PBAoEs, tank-centered spherical AoEs, or zones that ranged can get out of range of, but melee cannot.
Pushing and crowding. The space available for melee to stand at a boss fight is often quite limited, resulting in crowding, as well a problems with area powers that target random characters hitting other nearby melee.
Area attacks. A 10' radius just isn't that big.

Is it perfectly balanced? Probably not. However, there are real drawbacks to melee.

spinnytop · October 2017

aesica said:

"The list?" Oh wait, you're doing "it" again.

To add to Panta's excellent and well-informed list, Ranged has a huge defensive benefit over melee. Not only can ranged alpha strike from safety, but it can draw enemies apart to safely alpha strike them again mid-battle. Ranged can use 'range dancing' to hop in and out of attack range to stagger npc offense, and even to interrupt attacks, all while keeping up a solid offense. Ranged can also make better use of line of sight. As someone who actually uses these advantages I can assure you they are quite strong.

jonesing4 · October 2017

If you don’t think ranged offers some advantages that make up for its lower damage numbers, then you aren’t playing the game very well. I don’t mean that to sound unkind, as I myself don’t typically play the game well. It’s easy enough to charge in, use no tactics whatsoever, and watch the pretty effects on your attacks. You’ll kill most stuff that way, and there’s really no penalty if they kill you instead.

But, just because I don’t use the advantages doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Panta and spinny pretty much covered it, and spinny’s QWZ videos do a pretty great job of showing some of them in action.

So yeah, for that Soul Siphon alert against Viper X, it pretty much doesn’t matter if you’re at 100’ or giving him a hug. But, many situations in game offer a real discernible advantage to fighting from range. Melee/ranged difference is real, and the raw damage numbers do/should reflect that in some way.

Aspect of the machine

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