Martial Arts build advice required for Batman inspired toon

reapfield · September 2017

I am once again in need of advice. This time regarding the building of a unarmed melee martial artist inspired by Batman. I know the Night Warrior passive fits the theme, but I struggle to get mileage out of it in practice. I've considered using either lightning reflexes or Way of the Warrior as a slotted passive.

Unlike my electric DPS(Aptly named Electron), I have no idea where to start with this one.

flowcyto · September 2017

NW is good for dps and for Sneaking around. I'd prob take adv of its synergy w/ Ricochet Throw for ranged AoE and as a strong stealth opener:

(Unnamed Build) - Freeform
v2.3.1-25

Super Stats
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Specialist (Dex: 10, Con: 10, Int: 8, Rec: 10)
Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 9: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 12: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
Level 15: Coordinated (Dex: 5, Int: 5)
Level 18: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Ricochet Throw (Rank 2, Microelectronic Controllers)
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 20: Trip Wire (Stim Pack, Open Wound)
Level 23: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Parry (Rank 2)
Level 32: Thunderbolt Lunge (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 35: Lock N Load (Rank 2)
Level 38: Rebirth
Adv. Points: 33/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Slaughter (2/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Can use TKicks and DU for up-close dps. Trip Wire, Conviction, and the lunge can proc MSA. Gears mostly for Dex, w/ some Con and Int, and skips severity rating on gear once you get Dex Mastery.

nornsavant · September 2017

Night warrior is good for sneaking around basic content and one-shotting bosses there but be super careful in events and group content, do not get hit. You are super fragile and will shatter like delicate glass.

flowcyto · September 2017

Yeah, outside of most solo content, you do have to be careful setting up Shadowstrike. Sometimes its just not worth it, though.

nornsavant · September 2017

Wow... its real hard to make a sturdy version of this that still has damage. There just isn't much that will keep you safe with MA powers.

flowcyto · September 2017

Easiest way to be sturdier is to just use a defensive passive in Hybrid role, but ofc that comes w/ a considerable dps hit.

professor · February 2022

Flow, sorry to bring this thread back from 2017, but is this still a viable build? I see that you have a similar STR-based build from 2019. If this is still viable, I think I'd rather go DEX-based and Dodge-based, like this build.

For reference, here's your 2019 STR-based build:

Well, here's a mix of Unarmed, stealth, and boomerang stuff:

https://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=32&n=&d=11230abKPG9A0000007200E209EF07B8007505EL00K503ET0HEJ08ON01E809EG0166042Q002jN742iK2MGB50000000000&e=

Super Stats
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Master (Str: 8, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10)
Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 9: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 12: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 15: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 18: Martial Focus (Str: 5, Dex: 5)
Level 21: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Demolishing Strikes)
Level 6: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Ricochet Throw (Rank 2, Microelectronic Controllers)
Level 14: Steadfast
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2, Dragon Rush)
Level 23: Smoke Bomb Lunge (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2, Flowing Strikes)
Level 32: Parry (Rank 2)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Sleight of Mind)
Level 38: Fiery Embrace
Adv. Points: 34/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Strength: Swole (2/3)
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (1/3)
Strength: Overpower (2/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)

Ricochet Throw can be charged from Sneak for a heavy AoE opener to sweep up trash with, and as a general spam-able ranged AoE. TKicks can put up Demolish, while DU is your main single-target attack. Inex Tides can AoE/CC when up-close and quickly refresh Demolish. Gears mostly for Dex, w/ some Con.

flowcyto · February 2022

I wouldn't get Dex PSS's T2 dodge/avoid options, if that's what you mean, cause they aren't that great and also come at the cost of not getting Deadly Aim or Expose Weakness. Dodge isn't generally as good for non-tanks, since it's rng-based mitigation, but it can still be okay for some content- just not something to count on when taking large inc AoE hits. You can still use a DEX/Rec/Con SS setup, but you'd still want the dps-related options in Dex's tree, and otherwise that build can still work okay, if you like it.

Also, just because that build uses Str PSS, doesn't mean that it's Str-based; it's main stat is still Dex (for FotTempest and Steadfast). Your main stat does not have to be your PSS; it can be one of your 2ndary SSs instead, and then you're picking the PSS mainly for its spec tree options (and Str PSS is a good generalist pick for melee builds).

warcanch · February 2022

Not sure if you'd consider this a Batman-esque power, but consider adding in Mini Mines.

It is AoE, Melee, knock down, can use Stim pack advantage.

I've found this to be a nice addition since it is tagged Melee for some melee toons.

professor · February 2022

flowcyto wrote: »

Also, just because that build uses Str PSS, doesn't mean that it's Str-based; it's main stat is still Dex (for FotTempest and Steadfast). Your main stat does not have to be your PSS; it can be one of your 2ndary SSs instead, and then you're picking the PSS mainly for its spec tree options (and Str PSS is a good generalist pick for melee builds).

Thanks for the great advice and for helping me to understand the inner workings of the build!

professor · February 2022

flowcyto wrote: »

I wouldn't get Dex PSS's T2 dodge/avoid options, if that's what you mean, cause they aren't that great and also come at the cost of not getting Deadly Aim or Expose Weakness. Dodge isn't generally as good for non-tanks, since it's rng-based mitigation, but it can still be okay for some content- just not something to count on when taking large inc AoE hits. You can still use a DEX/Rec/Con SS setup, but you'd still want the dps-related options in Dex's tree, and otherwise that build can still work okay, if you like it.

I had been hoping to make a melee DPS unarmed fighter that relied on Dodge for survivability. But, Flow, if I understand you correctly, Dodge as a whole isn't really a winning approach for survivability for a DPS character? That is, for a melee unarmed fighter like in the builds above, Martial Arts powers like:

* Bountiful Chi Resurgence self-heal with Resurgent Reiki advantage (heals when you successfully Dodge),
* Parry with The Elusive Monk advantage (increase in Dodge & Avoidance ratings),
* Lightning Reflexes defensive passive (also increases Dodge & Avoidance ratings),
* Masterful Dodge, an active defense that increases Dodge chance (same for Archery's Evasive Maneuvers), or
* Thundering Kicks with the Floating Lotus Blossom advantage (increases Dodge chance)

are all essentially broken or woefully inadequate? And is that why the various builds above use the following powers instead?

* Conviction self-heal, since BCR BCR penalizes damage by 10% and its Dodge increase is of little help,
* Parry without the The Elusive Monk advantage or some other parry since the advantage does little for Dodge,
* Evasive Maneuvers with Slight of Mind advantage that trades increasing Dodge chance for a threat wipe, or
* Thundering Kicks with Demolishing Strikes advantage, applying Demolish rather than increasing Dodge since Dodge is ineffective.

Have I understood this correctly? If so, I guess the concept of a dodging fighter is off the table for actual in-game play, at least for non-tanks.

Here's an example of what I had hoped to build as a DEX-Dodge-dependent unarmed melee DPS fighter, but which if I understand correctly is not going to be effective:

Vixen - Freeform (Melee Damage)
v3.44:37

Super Stats
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Samurai (Dex: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 10, End: 8)
Level 6: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 9: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 12: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 15: Martial Focus (Str: 5, Dex: 5)
Level 18: Relentless (Str: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Righteous Fists (Drunken Master)
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Floating Lotus Blossom)
Level 6: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Ricochet Throw (Rank 2, Microelectronic Controllers)
Level 14: Steadfast
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2)
Level 20: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2, Dragon Rush)
Level 23: Smoke Bomb Lunge
Level 26: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 29: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2, Flowing Strikes)
Level 32: Fluidity (Flowing Like the River)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Slight of Mind)
Level 38: Masterful Dodge
Adv. Points: 35/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35: Swinging

Specializations
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Slaughter (2/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Devices

Additional Notes:
Not sure about having both Evasive Maneuvers & Masterful Dodge. Advantages need fine-tuning.

jaazaniah1 · February 2022

The issue with Dodging is that it is RNG dependent. When it works it is great, when it doesn't you take a lot of damage (especially bad if you are trying to be a dodge tank). The only way to get a lot of Dodge ability is to take Lightning Refelexes, but since that is a defensive passive, you can kiss your dps out the window. I haven't chekced in a good while, but if you are a dps trying to build up Dodge/Avoidance I think the best you can get for Dodge is around 40%, which is OK for leveling (since everything is pretty easy leveling) but it will be more a problem in more end game content.

Imo, the way around it is just to build up regular defenses and take powers that in your mind give you the feel that you are jumping around and dodging things. Many newer players obsess over the names of powers or what sets they are in, rather than focusing on the end result and using their imaginations to give their character the flavor they want.

flowcyto · February 2022

Yea, in easy content it doesn't really matter too much what sort of defenses you have/use, but dodge is still not ideal for non-tanks overall, even if you have a few powers in MA that work off of dodge (some better than others). It's not that dodge is ineffective as much as it's not something that should be depended on for a dps build (you could get ranked MD to get over 100% dodge temporarily, and pair that w/ BCR/RR if you want a nice combo, but these days it's easier and arguably better to just take Resurgence in a dps build).

Edit: Oh, I should also add that you should usually avoid getting Fluidity as your block power, since it replaces the large dmgRes bonus that normal blocks give w/ just a moderate dodge/avoid boost. I also wouldn't consider Parry's EM adv to be that great, since it costs 3 adv points, its buff is pretty short, and it lowers your base damage at all times. BCR also comes w/ a dmg penalty, but only when it's used; Conviction also technically is a minor hit to dps w/ its own activation time, so BCR isn't necessarily a bad alternative there. I also would generally not rank up energy builders, since you ideally shouldn't be using them often (or even at all) at higher levels.

professor · February 2022

Jaazaniah, thanks for the gread advice!

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Many newer players obsess over the names of powers or what sets they are in, rather than focusing on the end result and using their imaginations to give their character the flavor they want.

I suspect I have fallen into that trap. Thanks for helping me see past it.

professor · February 2022

Flow, great takedown of my Dodge-dependent build--very helpful; thanks! I will change my build above accordingly to match what you have above in your STR/DEX/CON build (i.e., changing advantages away from Dodge/Avoidance to R2 or R3 or adding Demolish, etc.), but I think I'll use DEX/REC/CON as my Super Stats instead (I think that should work). Thanks for the help in really understanding what's going on with these powers, advantages and stats.

flowcyto · February 2022

Yea, something like DEX/Rec/Con can work just fine for the build (though you'll prob want a decent amount of cost discount rating on utility gear for it, since you won't have Str PSS's Physical Peak). Regardless, have fun out there 8)

reapfield · February 2022

Thanks for the build advice, guys. I'm gonna take a look at these in the lab.

ragadolf · February 2022

Sorry late to the party, (Discussion)
here is the basic 'batman-esque' build that I currently use, (Admittedly based off of one of FLOWS build suggestions)

The last few powers can be whatever you want, depending on what kind of 'utility belt' powers you want. Or if you want another heal/self rez/etc instead.
And there are many devices that can go well with the build as well, (If you are like me, and like to play with such things)

https://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=37&n=BatFox (FLOWCYTO)&d=12730iKPGaLQ0600907200E209BC077505EG01B800EQ0XCI00EU03ON01EJ007D037K05EA040mTO2MGB42iK40000000000&e=

BatFox (FLOWCYTO) - Freeform (Melee Damage)
v3.44:37

Super Stats
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Chiller (Dex: 10, Con: 10, Rec: 8, End: 10)
Level 6: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 9: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 12: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 15: Amazing Stamina (Rec: 5, End: 5)
Level 18: Accurate (Dex: 5, End: 5)
Level 21: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Demolishing Strikes)
Level 6: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 8: Ricochet Throw (Rank 2, Microelectronic Controllers)
Level 11: Parry (Rank 2)
Level 14: Form of the Tempest
Level 17: Dragon Kick (Rank 2, Dragon Rush)
Level 20: Steadfast
Level 23: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Smoke Bomb Lunge
Level 32: Sonic Device (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Gas Pellets (Rank 2, Oversized Pellet Bag)
Level 38: Smoke Bomb (Concussive Escape)
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35: Swinging

Specializations
Dexterity: Combat Training (3/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (2/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Devices

Martial Arts build advice required for Batman inspired toon

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