Why offensive powers are a poor alternative to defensive powers.

eva1988 · August 2017

I'll start by clarifying what i mean by"offensive powers"; anything that is used to debuff a target's resistance, and/or applies damage, or a damage buff to the user... Defensive powers would include self heals, powers that reduce damage taken, things that reduce the enemies damage to the user...And support powers would of course be heals to other players, shields (when used on other players), and crowd control, i'm putting crowd control in support as it can be used to support both offensive and defense.

Now obviously some powers do a bit of everything, in that case i would categorize said powers by what appears to be their core function. An example would be lets say.. Knocks.. I would place knocks as an offensive power if their focus is on fall damage.. So lets say uppercut is an example of a power that is focused on dealing damage via knocking, and is therefore an offense power. On the other hand i would place something like rising knee under the support category as it's focus is on restricting movement over dealing damage...

Now that is out of the way..

I've noticed a trend in the way a lot of people make their builds. They will take one offensive damage dealing power, and then take the rest of their powers as defense...Powers i frequently see this done with are things like dragon's wrath, and haymaker..Now why do i take issue with this?

Well, it basically means that offensive powers have poor synergy. This also raises certain balance issues, and is probably one of the major culprits behind the do-everything-well builds often seen. Why would you take other damage dealing offense powers when you only really need one?

There are so many offensive damage dealing powers that just never get taken because they aren't needed when you don't need synergy to put out good damage.

Lets use might as an example of a framework with many damage dealing powers that simply aren't necessary due to one damage dealing power being good enough.

Mighty kick
uppercut
roomsweeper
havoc stomp
Unleashed rage
nuclear shockwave
beatdown
power chord
iron cyclone
iron chain
hyper voice
demolish*

This list would obviously be much much longer if i were to use all frameworks.. But you get the idea..In that one framework you have twelve unnecessary powers.

Why would you take any of these other powers for the purpose of putting out damage when haymaker just does it better? Sure, you'll miss out on some AOE, but a self heal, or an active defense will serve you better.. Afterall, it just means you have to punch each one individually, and so having an AOE is just a time saver, and not a necessity, and when you have lots of defense powers, you have all the time in the world. Demolish is still on the list as it does have SOME synergy when it comes to increasing damage output, but even then by the time you've charged demolish you'd have likely put out more damage had you just charged another haymaker...

So why is it defensive powers are just a more useful choice in this case? Because your overall damage isn't really going up at all by taking multiple damage dealing offense powers; but when you take defensive powers they all stack and work with eachother, increasing your overall survivability by a large amount.

There really needs to be more synergy between damage dealing offense powers so that it doesn't make so many of these powers unnecessary...I'd like to see less damage from standalone powers, and i'd like to see more attention being given to using offensive powers together to deal good damage.

In turn, do-everything-well builds will no longer do everything well, but instead they'd be a jack of all trades build, and a master of none; as opposed to master of all. Which only seems fair...Not only that, but this would put an end to just mindlessly pressing the same power over and over when fighting cosmics, and things of the like; you'll have to time things better.

pantagruel01 · August 2017

I think you're thinking of PvP setups as typical. A high end PvE dps build will usually have a single target spammable, an area spammable, one or two debuff procs, possibly a stack-builder or energy unlock trigger, an ult, and some active offenses.

flowcyto · August 2017

Part of it is that there's more attacks than defensive or healing powers in CO, so there's going to be more 'dead-weight' powers in that sort of category than others naturally. That said, dps is just about dealing dmg, but there's enough accessory powers in CO that you can further max ur dps in exchange for less slots devoted to survival, but just like w/ practically everything you'll get a diminishing return there (ie. the next offensive power boosts ur performance less than the last one, etc). On the other end, at least for PvE, there's def cases where one can go overboard on the defensive stuff and not end up using much of it in most encounters. There's a sort of DR there as well, and many high-end dps builds will likely just aim for a healthy balance of offense vs. defense.

eva1988 · August 2017

Note i'm not saying the best possible damage, i'm simply saying to get really good damage you don't have to take many powers at all; which leaves people plenty of room to stack a lot of defense, whilst at the same time having very solid offense. You can minimally increase your overall damage output by taking debuffs, but the brunt of the damage is coming from the single target damage dealing attack.

A lot of the things you mentioned increase offense pretty minimally when compared to stacked defense. You have bubbles, you have self heals, block, active defense; all of these increase your overall defensiveness considerably, and stack in tandem with eachother;, but on the offensive side the improvements are minimal... Most of the debuffs are pretty minor, in some cases the time used to put them on is wasted as you'd have put more damage out had you not used it; the only good buffs that pretty much everyone takes on whatever build they're using anyway are the stackers, which also double as energy builders, and an active offense; but even then, the active offense isn't a necessity for a good damage output. So all you need really is one heavy single target attack, and a stacker, and you're pretty much good to put out really solid damage.

This of course doesn't apply to every framework, there are some i feel have great synergy, like the fire framework, where everything builds up to a large damage output, so you have to actually commit more of your power points to getting good damage, instead of just one or two.

But for something like might? haymaker and enrage is all you're really going to need to have a really decent damage output, and this bugs me because on my might build, it is frustrating that i rarely find a moment where i'd use any of the other powers i've taken. I'd like to use the other powers that i have, instead of just repeatedly pressing haymaker, but there never seems to be an opportunity where it'd be more beneficial to do so.

darqaura2 · August 2017

There's one other reason why folks would take multiple powers in one framework . . . theme. You're right you don't need much attacks to do good dps. However if you have a certain theme in mind you may take those other powers just for that.

Remember that some folks play this game as a dress up simulator, or more accurately, a pretend to be the hero you read in comics simulator. For that some folks may take many offensive (or even defensive powers) if it allows them to mimic or pay homage to their favorite superhero.

kallethen · August 2017

This kind of reminds me of an ooooooold post by an old player that discussed how to build good characters on CO.

Here's the guide: https://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/227540/demon-keypos-tips-to-balanced-building

Anyhow, the really important part of that guide that I always think back to when I'm trying to come up with a build is Step Four. It's about the REAL trinity for this game. Not the DPS/Tank/Support trinity, but the Damage/Mitigation/Healing trinity. If you are focused on just one of those, you'll have a hard time. You need to mix it up. Get two of the three and you'll have a much easier time. Balance all three and you're unstoppable.

eva1988 · August 2017

darqaura2 said:
There's one other reason why folks would take multiple powers in one framework . . . theme. You're right you don't need much attacks to do good dps. However if you have a certain theme in mind you may take those other powers just for that.

Remember that some folks play this game as a dress up simulator, or more accurately, a pretend to be the hero you read in comics simulator. For that some folks may take many offensive (or even defensive powers) if it allows them to mimic or pay homage to their favorite superhero.

Right, i myself try to stick to a theme, but i'd rather the powers were useful as opposed to useless; wouldn't you?

eva1988 · August 2017

kallethen said:
This kind of reminds me of an ooooooold post by an old player that discussed how to build good characters on CO.

Here's the guide: https://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/227540/demon-keypos-tips-to-balanced-building

Anyhow, the really important part of that guide that I always think back to when I'm trying to come up with a build is Step Four. It's about the REAL trinity for this game. Not the DPS/Tank/Support trinity, but the Damage/Mitigation/Healing trinity. If you are focused on just one of those, you'll have a hard time. You need to mix it up. Get two of the three and you'll have a much easier time. Balance all three and you're unstoppable.

That is the problem; nobody should be unstoppable. Every build should have a weakness. If someone goes for defense, they should be weak at offense, if someone goes offense, they should have weak defense; if they're a hybrid they should be best at neither, but not worst either.

flowcyto · August 2017

Debuffs many times aren't minimal for dps (unless you chose one that doesn't jive w/ ur primary dmg type). That's also accounting for most debuffs also potentially helping others (same w/ some ults). Rather, bubbles on most dps are going to be pretty weak vs. a Support's; same w/ Pres-scaling heals. And if they have activation times, cast/channel times, and/or significant energy costs, then they can come at the cost of dps. ADs are nice conditionally or as emergency buttons, but their longer and shared cds means they shouldn't be relied upon as a dps.

Again, you can stack on the defense/heal powers all you want, but as a committed dps ur still using an offensive passive, and even then ur less likely to use all those defensive tools for most encounters vs. as a tank. Most encounters as a proper dps can be handled w/ a short-cd self-heal, an AD, and a threat wipe or self-res (and for higher-end stuff, a block enhancer); beyond that, ur likely getting minor return on ur other defensive tools. As for dps-hybrids, they lose ~25% vs. a dps role as is, and quite more if also using a defensive passive (in the range of 45%+ lower dps; I think that's large enough of a gap).

That is the problem; nobody should be unstoppable. Every build should have a weakness. If someone goes for defense, they should be weak at offense, if someone goes offense, they should have weak defense; if they're a hybrid they should be best at neither, but not worst either.

I'm not seeing how this isn't already the case in CO? Role and slotted passive differences already accomplish most of this separation w/o much else needing to be done. Its not like we still have that much stuff like the 65%+ cd reduction, OP 'tack-on' powers, or crazy dodge rating/gear of olde tymes to throw a huge wrench into the whole 'role balancing' thing.

I have a feeling most of these complaints are borne out of 1v1 PvP, which ofc doesn't reflect the rest of the game, nor is a focus of it.

eva1988 · August 2017

"Debuffs many times aren't minimal for dps (unless you chose one that doesn't jive w/ ur primary dmg type). That's also accounting for most debuffs also potentially helping others (same w/ some ults). Rather, bubbles on most dps are going to be pretty weak vs. a Support's; same w/ Pres-scaling heals. And if they have activation times, cast/channel times, and/or significant energy costs, then they can come at the cost of dps. ADs are nice conditionally or as emergency buttons, but their longer and shared cds means they shouldn't be relied upon as a dps.

Again, you can stack on the defense/heal powers all you want, but as a committed dps ur still using an offensive passive, and even then ur less likely to use all those defensive tools for most encounters vs. as a tank. Most encounters as a proper dps can be handled w/ a short-cd self-heal, an AD, and a threat wipe or self-res (and for higher-end stuff, a block enhancer); beyond that, ur likely getting minor return on ur other defensive tools. As for dps-hybrids, they lose ~25% vs. a dps role as is, and quite more if also using a defensive passive (in the range of 45%+ lower dps; I think that's large enough of a gap).

I'm not seeing how this isn't already the case in CO? Role and slotted passive differences already accomplish most of this separation w/o much else needing to be done. Its not like we still have that much stuff like the 65%+ cd reduction, OP 'tack-on' powers, or crazy dodge rating/gear of olde tymes to throw a huge wrench into the whole 'role balancing' thing.

I have a feeling most of these complaints are borne out of 1v1 PvP, which ofc doesn't reflect the rest of the game, nor is a focus of it."

So you're fine with a lot of the damage dealing powers being pretty much useless, and just pressing the same attack over and over again? Don't you find that boring? Don't you think it'd be more fun to use a wide array of damage dealing powers that all work together?

PvP is an important part of the game to me, and i think it should be a focus; but despite that, i just think it'd be more fun than repeatedly pressing the same attack over and over, and it would bring everything builds into line a bit more, which is a problem in PVE too if you ask me. .I mean, i don't like it when someone can do everything, because it means i'm less useful to the team than they are, and It renders other people obsolete to a degree if one person can just do everything without assistance.

I just think if someone invests so much into offense, someone shouldn't so easily be able to reach a similar damage output without similar investment.

blockwave · August 2017

Depends of what content we are talking about, TA, cosmics, Eido, you can do everything and the trinity is there, in alerts ? Sure, you can survive and chew the ennemies, but in end-game, you won't be able to heal, tank and dps.

darqaura2 · August 2017

eva1988 said:

darqaura2 said:
There's one other reason why folks would take multiple powers in one framework . . . theme. You're right you don't need much attacks to do good dps. However if you have a certain theme in mind you may take those other powers just for that.

Remember that some folks play this game as a dress up simulator, or more accurately, a pretend to be the hero you read in comics simulator. For that some folks may take many offensive (or even defensive powers) if it allows them to mimic or pay homage to their favorite superhero.
Right, i myself try to stick to a theme, but i'd rather the powers were useful as opposed to useless; wouldn't you?

Not every power needs to be equal in strength or utility. If it were, this would be a pretty boring game.

darqaura2 · August 2017

eva1988 said:

kallethen said:
This kind of reminds me of an ooooooold post by an old player that discussed how to build good characters on CO.

Here's the guide: https://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/227540/demon-keypos-tips-to-balanced-building

Anyhow, the really important part of that guide that I always think back to when I'm trying to come up with a build is Step Four. It's about the REAL trinity for this game. Not the DPS/Tank/Support trinity, but the Damage/Mitigation/Healing trinity. If you are focused on just one of those, you'll have a hard time. You need to mix it up. Get two of the three and you'll have a much easier time. Balance all three and you're unstoppable.
That is the problem; nobody should be unstoppable. Every build should have a weakness. If someone goes for defense, they should be weak at offense, if someone goes offense, they should have weak defense; if they're a hybrid they should be best at neither, but not worst either.

This is already the case sir.

It's why in some cosmic content the organizers specifically request people bring pure dps instead of hybrids.

darqaura2 · August 2017

eva1988 said:

PvP is an important part of the game to me, and i think it should be a focus; but despite that, i just think it'd be more fun than repeatedly pressing the same attack over and over, and it would bring everything builds into line a bit more, which is a problem in PVE too if you ask me. .I mean, i don't like it when someone can do everything, because it means i'm less useful to the team than they are, and It renders other people obsolete to a degree if one person can just do everything without assistance.

I just think if someone invests so much into offense, someone shouldn't so easily be able to reach a similar damage output without similar investment.

What exactly are you basing this on?

In the reality of the game someone who focuses on dps is going to out dps someone who doesn't. Do you really believe that a hybrid will do more dps than someone who focuses exclusively on dps. And when I say focus I mean: stats, powers, slotted gear.

I don't think you're coming at this from what's actually happening in the game.

EDIT:
I have to ask now, how much of the higher level endgame content BESIDES PVP do you actually participate in?
Secondly, do you understand why a pure dps character might be better in an encounter like the Teliosaraus Cosmic fight than someone trying to do "everything" or a hybrid?

flowcyto · August 2017

eva1988 said:

So you're fine with a lot of the damage dealing powers being pretty much useless, and just pressing the same attack over and over again? Don't you find that boring? Don't you think it'd be more fun to use a wide array of damage dealing powers that all work together?

PvP is an important part of the game to me, and i think it should be a focus; but despite that, i just think it'd be more fun than repeatedly pressing the same attack over and over, and it would bring everything builds into line a bit more, which is a problem in PVE too if you ask me. .I mean, i don't like it when someone can do everything, because it means i'm less useful to the team than they are, and It renders other people obsolete to a degree if one person can just do everything without assistance.

I just think if someone invests so much into offense, someone shouldn't so easily be able to reach a similar damage output without similar investment.

Imo, most of the powersets that have been revamped aren't really one-button wonders anymore. Sure, many of them can have relatively simple rotations at their core, but as the complexity of the fights ramps up (and newer ones have been) that's not necc a bad thing, and many of them still have room to further optimize dps beyond that, if you so choose. You also give Might as an example repeatedly, but Might is prob one of the worst culprits of that old design approach that's still around, and there's still powers and mechanics that could be revisited in that set alone.

Noone is forcing you to use only the most optimal dps attack in each framework, though. You even mentioned multiple times that you aren't referring to min-maxed dps here. Even sub-optimal attacks can still produce decent dps if built around, assuming we aren't going for max set dps as is. There's also plenty of debuffs and utility powers (CC, buffs, debuff refreshes, Restoration adv procs, EU procs, etc) to pad out an FF build with, and which can mix things up and prove useful in fights that go beyond tank n' spank. There's also alternatives to ye olde Guard/Wardicator specs that can change up a rotation and/or conditionally be better for dps or group dps (AvMastery, Setup, Flanking, RA, Preemptive Strike, Trapped, Wither, etc). Many of these change-ups do involve devoting more power slots to offense or utility, and not directly to self-defense, and can still be quite viable.

pantagruel01 · August 2017

eva1988 said:
So you're fine with a lot of the damage dealing powers being pretty much useless, and just pressing the same attack over and over again?

My best dps uses a rotation of four attack powers, two offensive devices, and two active offenses.

opalflame · August 2017

I'd like to see proof that someone who doesn't build for offense can get similar damage to someone who does build for offense. Judging by the huge differences in dps that I see on parsers between players with different builds, I highly doubt it.

flowcyto · August 2017

eva1988 said:

PvP is an important part of the game to me, and i think it should be a focus; but despite that, i just think it'd be more fun than repeatedly pressing the same attack over and over, and it would bring everything builds into line a bit more, which is a problem in PVE too if you ask me. .I mean, i don't like it when someone can do everything, because it means i'm less useful to the team than they are, and It renders other people obsolete to a degree if one person can just do everything without assistance.

I forgot to add, but I should also clarify that I'm not here to de-legitimize ur own pvp experiences nor what you want to see from them. Its just that you have to put that w/in its proper scope when extracting to the broader topics of overall game balance.

Unknown · August 2017

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eva1988 · August 2017

opalflame said:
I'd like to see proof that someone who doesn't build for offense can get similar damage to someone who does build for offense. Judging by the huge differences in dps that I see on parsers between players with different builds, I highly doubt it.

They're only using a few powers to do that. Tell me, how many powers out of 14 are they using to get that result? Ask them next time, and you'll find it isn't many.

When fighting cosmics, including my active offense and toggle, i'm using roughly four powers, and two devices. And i'm usually pretty high on the board. Those powers are :

Haymaker
Enrage (toggle)
Unstoppable (passive)
Aggressor (active offense)

Now i'm not saying my damage is the best, but with just four powers i'm able to achieve very good results.

Four powers out of fourteen. Do you see the issue here? It is way too easy to achieve good offense with little power investment. And worst of all, the only thing i'm pressing that is an actual attack, is haymaker; there are no other damage dealing powers necessary.

eva1988 · August 2017

gradii said:
This person ever only thinks about PVP and clearly has little endgame PVE experience.

Not true. Would you like it if people just made assumptions about you and tried to pass them off as truth? Probably not. So i'd appreciate if you didn't try to do the same to me.

The funny thing is, this issue doesn't really impact PVP that much, because you're forced to use a wider array of damage dealing powers depending on the circumstance. In "endgame" PVE you can get away with just haymaker. How do i know? Because i do.

But you see, people only resort to attempting to discredit the person when they've got no argument.

eva1988 · August 2017

"My best dps uses a rotation of four attack powers, two offensive devices, and two active offenses."

Would you be able to share what those powers are?

So even as your best DPS, you're only using six powers..That leaves eight powers for everything else..Now i'll take off two from that as i'm assuming you're using a toggle and a passive; that leaves six powers. Unless of course you included your passive, and toggle when you were referring to "attack powers".. In which case, it is still eight powers available.

Six powers left even when outputting the best damage. Now remember, i'm not even talking about "the best damage" but just very decent damage.

Six powers is a lot, it is one short of half the powers available. Surely someone dedicated to offense would use well over half to get the best damage? Not on champions online.

Now if we compare someone who is dedicated to defense; how many powers do they use? I'd be willing to bet it is well over half that are defensively based.. If you look at the powers from just their defense potential, they all stack together.

Why are defense builds so easily able to stack up their defense by taking defense powers, and it boosts their overall defense by doing so, where as i, as an offense, am stuck with just a handful of powers to up my damage output, and only require one attack? Why do hardly any powers work together to boost overall damage; but with defense they all stack together?

pantagruel01 · August 2017

eva1988 said:
"My best dps uses a rotation of four attack powers, two offensive devices, and two active offenses."

Would you be able to share what those powers are?

Dragon's Wrath, Eviscerate, Vorpal Blade, Reaper's Embrace, (device) Will of the Tiger Cub, (device) pungi stick trap, (device) neuroelectric pulse generator, Imbue, Ego Surge (haven't retconned yet).

eva1988 said:
So even as your best DPS, you're only using six powers..

Six powers is a lot, it is one short of half the powers available. Surely someone dedicated to offense would use well over half to get the best damage? Not on champions online.

That's six powers actively used in boss fights. Another two powers (passive and form) are passively used for offense in boss fights, plus an area attack, plus an energy builder (not used for anything). Only four powers are used for defense: threat wipe, active defense, block, self-heal.

opalflame · August 2017

So how many dps powers do you want to make required, exactly? Wouldn't this limit cross-framework builds a lot?

eva1988 · August 2017

opalflame said:
So how many dps powers do you want to make required, exactly? Wouldn't this limit cross-framework builds a lot?

Well, all of them really.. They should all synergize so when i pick an attack power, my overall attack goes up. .Maybe not for all AoE attacks, but for most single target attacks...

Also, in regards to it impacting cross-framework builds, i would say that it all depends on the advantages of the powers. Like take fireball for example, you can take a debuff that helps the fire framework more, for those that want it, or you can simply rank it up for plain damage, which would be what a cross-framework builder would do presumably do.

eva1988 · August 2017

"That's six powers actively used in boss fights. Another two powers (passive and form) are passively used for offense in boss fights, plus an area attack, plus an energy builder (not used for anything). Only four powers are used for defense: threat wipe, active defense, block, self-heal."

What you're doing looks more like what i'm suggesting for more powers; you're using your attacks to build up to a strong attack; and you're using it with a passive that allows for a lot of synergy between those particular powers. And as i stated in my original post, it is not all frameworks that are subject to poor synergy, but there are a lot that are.

Take wind for example.. Where is the big payoff there? Earth? No payoff there either. . Heavy weapons does have some good synergy, but it doesn't really build to anything that is stronger than just repeatedly charging Annihilate over and over. Ice is in a similar situation, where you have a lot of powers that build up to shatter, but you're just going to put out more damage by repeatedly charging icicle spear. Archery also has no payoff, and no real synergy either when you compare it to something like fire, or single blade. Dual blades is just a one power framework unless you're going to try and get the shredded debuff....Dragon's wrath has to be the most picked power on the game from what i've seen..nearly every melee damage dealer i see uses it because it is just a really strong standalone power.

Then take something like singleblade, huge payoff. Then fire, also a huge payoff (but it takes longer to get there than singleblade), and a lot of powers are used to get there; same with electricity (not the best synergy, but puts out a lot of damage when you followup a gigabolt with lightning ark and use the electrocute debuff)... These powers can either be used in quick succession for high damage, or build up to high damage for a big payoff.. Then just looking back at dual blades; dragon's wrath, and that is all you really need.. I mean, come on..

Fire for me is the staple for what i feel more frameworks should aspire for; all powers do some damage alone, but when used together they build up to something quite strong. Ice could be like this too if when shattering ice objects it put out more damage, and the ice objects were not so easily destroyed, and chill was applied with more ice powers.

darqaura2 · August 2017

eva1988 said:

opalflame said:
So how many dps powers do you want to make required, exactly? Wouldn't this limit cross-framework builds a lot?
Well, all of them really.. They should all synergize so when i pick an attack power, my overall attack goes up. .Maybe not for all AoE attacks, but for most single target attacks...

Also, in regards to it impacting cross-framework builds, i would say that it all depends on the advantages of the powers. Like take fireball for example, you can take a debuff that helps the fire framework more, for those that want it, or you can simply rank it up for plain damage, which would be what a cross-framework builder would do presumably do.

That would be boring as hell if they were all required. It's not a game I would play.

flowcyto · August 2017

I think the message is getting muddled here, between 'I want a big payoff' and 'I want more attack synergy', as those two don't necc go hand-in-hand. I have issues w/ some of the powerset examples cited, but instead of nitpicking I'll just say in general it'd mostly come down to that mixed message coming off here.

Overall, I think that a set getting strong (not necc the most optimal) ST dps from 2-3 attacks is fine, and this seems to be the pattern for the revamped sets. This is esp since pure ST dps is only one aspect of the game, and having too complex in-set rotations or interactions interferes w/ CO's bedrock: customization.

(that said, I'm not even really against a few cases of 'one-attack-rules-all' approaches, like DW- just have alternatives be good too; part of embracing customization is allowing both complex and simple stuff to fly, since not everyone plays the same way, has the same goals, or has the same standards)

And once again, just cause you have the option to get more defensive powers, doesn't mean you'll end up getting good return on them as a dps. You could get 3 ADs and 3 self-heals as a dps, sure, but I can't envision needing all of that for PvE- unless you regularly have things go pear-shaped or something. The risk of getting too much defensive stuff is that you won't end up using all of it that much, and then ur carrying dead-weight in ur build that could have been used for other things.

Unknown · September 2017

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layene · September 2017

eva1988 said:

opalflame said:
I'd like to see proof that someone who doesn't build for offense can get similar damage to someone who does build for offense. Judging by the huge differences in dps that I see on parsers between players with different builds, I highly doubt it.
They're only using a few powers to do that. Tell me, how many powers out of 14 are they using to get that result? Ask them next time, and you'll find it isn't many.

When fighting cosmics, including my active offense and toggle, i'm using roughly four powers, and two devices. And i'm usually pretty high on the board. Those powers are :

Haymaker
Enrage (toggle)
Unstoppable (passive)
Aggressor (active offense)

Now i'm not saying my damage is the best, but with just four powers i'm able to achieve very good results.

Four powers out of fourteen. Do you see the issue here? It is way too easy to achieve good offense with little power investment. And worst of all, the only thing i'm pressing that is an actual attack, is haymaker; there are no other damage dealing powers necessary.

I think you're forgetting your block and energy unlock (blocking is necessary regardless of what role you play, and the EU directly feeds your ability to do damage), so that would be six powers. If you were to properly set up your Haymaker with the in-set debuff, you'd be using 7, and with an ultimate (for dps checks) you are up to using 8 of your 14 powers (or 7 if you don't want to include your block, so half your powers are used to directly and indirectly increase your dps). If you are only using 4 then you're the only one holding you back.

Personally, every one of my builds uses every power chosen. I may not need to use my AOE attacks in a Cosmic battle, but I still need them for other content. At most, I will have 1-2 powers that are simply for theme, but even my Active Defenses help my DPS by allowing me to attack through Snow Storms, etc. so that indirectly increases my dps.

roughbearmattach · September 2017

For the Might build the OP keeps alluding to:

Haymaker (single target DPS, plus Enrage proc)
Demolish (single target debuff)
spammable AoE (multi-target DPS, plus Enrage proc, like Thunderclap, Room Sweeper, or Iron Cyclone)
Agressor (AO)
Unleashed Rage (ult)
Mighty Leap (lunge)

This is required for even just a pretty good Might DPS build. It takes more than spamming one power.

Unknown · September 2017

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roughbearmattach · September 2017

Sure, you could take an overpower Ultimate. Depends if you want the bigger damage burst from UR or not.

Still, my point stands--a great might build needs more than one power to work well.

spinnytop · September 2017

I make builds that take a whole bunch of offensive powers and then I lead a path of destruction through things and people are like "wow, you're strong!". "Kill them before they can kill you" and "disable them so they can't fight back" are two very powerful strategies in this game if you're willing to figure them out. Synergy isn't just "this buffs that, this makes that make energy" - there's also tactical synergy where powers complement each other without any direct mechanical interactions.

Why offensive powers are a poor alternative to defensive powers.

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