And I could claim that people like you just want their FFs to be that more uber than other people by comparison. Let's not attack strawmen, okay?
But you're absolutely right, I want my FF to be more "uber" than people playing ATs, because why in the hell would I even have bothered playing FF when I could AT? Could it be that I wanted a premium service warranted by me investing actual money to get the higher-value quality of service that I expect from making that payment? Gee, what a concept!
What strawman? You continue to show a fascinating level of ignorance and stubborness with how you continue to show a complete disregard for how this game is structured as a product to be sold to people and exactly why the F2P matrix exists.
Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
Yeah sure, and I've yet to see your practical example of how a universal balance between FF and AT can be achieved. Detail how it's done through all powersets, especially when a FF can mix-and-match as they please while AT is severely much more restricted in that aspect. Give us this brilliant solution to the challenges that devs and players alike have been struggling to tackle ever since the game launched. Talk is cheap.
Nah, that's step 2. Step 1 is demonstrating how ATs were at the same power level before. How can you say ATs had any sort of balance at all when the DPS ones did wildly varying amounts of damage?
It is certainly not required. But balanced games are better than non-balanced ones. Unless you don't agree with that statement, in which case all the other balance changes were bad, because they would have been unnecessary. You're caught in a catch-22 there.
This thread has been downgraded into reaper's personal Echo Chamber from the start
ATs' DR bug was an exploit and it was never good neither Healthy for the game, GET OVER IT
Your claim would carry more weight if it didn't involve massive cognitive dissonance. If the AT DR was an exploit, then so is wardicator, and yet I don't see you calling for its removal.
But by all means, continue ignoring your own contradictions.
And I could claim that people like you just want their FFs to be that more uber than other people by comparison. Let's not attack strawmen, okay?
But you're absolutely right, I want my FF to be more "uber" than people playing ATs, because why in the hell would I even have bothered playing FF when I could AT? Could it be that I wanted a premium service warranted by me investing actual money to get the higher-value quality of service that I expect from making that payment? Gee, what a concept!
What strawman? You continue to show a fascinating level of ignorance and stubborness with how you continue to show a complete disregard for how this game is structured as a product to be sold to people and exactly why the F2P matrix exists.
Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
Yeah sure, and I've yet to see your practical example of how a universal balance between FF and AT can be achieved. Detail how it's done through all powersets, especially when a FF can mix-and-match as they please while AT is severely much more restricted in that aspect. Give us this brilliant solution to the challenges that devs and players alike have been struggling to tackle ever since the game launched. Talk is cheap.
FFs were already more "uber" than ATs before the changes.
Your pay-to-win argument isn't relevant because Golds get access to ATs too. It would be able to support the argument that subscribers should be stronger than non-subscribers, but that's not the debate here.
All right, then, since you obstinately refuse to read through the posts you've skipped, let's go through three examples of how things could be fixed:
1) The way things previously were. Every class had its own niche. 2) If AT PvP were a thing people actually did, then ATs would have the advantage of being able to access their own content, without threatening FF superiority. 3) If ATs had the full number of powers and role switching, then asymmetrical balance could be claimed on the basis that FFs couldn't just do the same build as an AT but better. You'd be effectively paying for the freedom that FF offers, which is sort of the point.
See? Easy. But you don't care about any of that, because you've now openly admitted that you want the game to be worse than it could be.
Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going, but since it is, I've been thinking about it and this is what I've come up with. CO has one of the most liberal F2P policy of any game. You can play the entire game and get the most elite gear, all without spending a single penny. There really are no restrictions on ATs. You don't even need to spend any money on costumes because there is already a nice selection for free in the Tailor. Heck, you can grind UNTIL, GCR, SCR and Questonite to actually buy more costumes, again without spending a penny. So, yeah, you can play the entire game with a nice looking super-hero without spending any money. I cannot imagine how any rational person could complain about that. That is super cool that the devs allow that.
However, that's a rough way to run a business, and it probably one of the reasons we have so few dev resources to improve the game.
So, this would be my suggestion. Restrict AT's to level 30. That way, for free you can get a good sample of the game to see if you like it. Then if you want to go further, you can convert your AT to a Freeform for a few bucks and finish the grind. I'd even say give them a free retcon to go with that. If you don't want to spend any money and stay at level 30, you can still participate in the events, the MC OMs, the OV missions, and all the comic book series, for as long as you want. Give a Silver player like 3 character slots, so they can try out a few different powersets, then convert the one they like the best.
I also think that Silvers should be interrupted every now and then with advertising cutscenes. I mean, this is exactly how Youtube works, and look how successful they are. Obviously, don't do it during combat, but maybe during idle or travel time.
The thing is, the WHOLE game should not be free. Freebies should be a sampling. Something to whet one's appetite. I mean, can you imagine going into your grocery store and everything is free? When you get a wine sample at your favorite wine store, do they give you the whole bottle? Of course not! They give you a little sip. Then if you like it, you BUY the rest of the bottle.
I think to go along with this, they should make the ATs more efficient. I mean, I have an Unleashed and it has weird stuff like Force powers that do not harmonize at all with the melee attacks. I'm not saying uncap their DR, but just make them more cohesive and efficient builds. This way, people who don't want to get into the whole building stuff can still have decent characters. Keep the AT string open even after someone upgrades to Freeform, so they still have the option of following a prebuilt character, OR they can go full-on Freeform and make their old build. I know that one reason people stick with ATs is because they do not want to bother with working out a build, and that is cool. It is just that the ATs need to be built better.
Would this drive off some freebie players? Maybe, but I don't see how that matters. If you are consuming resources and not contributing, you are actually hurting the game.
Plus, this would solve the problem of so many of the AT builds sucking because they are too bizarro and inefficient.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
@pwestolemynameI feel compelled to respond here, the advocating of business mindset I find personally abhorrent, since gaming is meant to be about fun or did people forget about that when Business is busy trying to hijack it?, some of us like to play with Passion then Profiteer, moving on, as for sampling, Silvers already start out with only have 2 slots to try out with limited free AT's and getting anything in game is a massive grind anyways, not to mention resource limitation of 500G, such is the nature of MMO's as I've come to understand, you could simply pay with arbitrary numbers people been taught to believe in transactions or/and use your time to gradually grind in game currency, either way, it's your choice on what you want to do.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
How can you say ATs had any sort of balance at all when the DPS ones did wildly varying amounts of damage?
Because that was their compensation for being inferior in all other ways. And despite that advantage, they were still usually the weaker option.
Uh.... you seem to be responding to a statement I didn't make.... The DPS focused ATs were not balanced with each other.... at all. some of them were strictly inferior to other DPS focused ATS. How is that compensation for anything?
Because that was their compensation for being inferior in all other ways. And despite that advantage, they were still usually the weaker option.
No it wasn't, it was a bug. You don't get compensated for something you're not supposed to have. The bug didn't even apply equally to all ATs, so it's a pretty stupid argument to say that it was an equalizer. The actual equalizer is that ATs are cheaper and simpler - that's what makes them equal choices.
You're basically standing at the store looking at two brands of Mac N Cheese, one of which is cheaper and saying "Well, the cheaper brand needs something to make it equal in quality to the more expensive brand". No, it doesn't, because you're paying less. It becomes even dumber when you're being given free Mac N Cheese and claiming it needs an equalizer to the expensive brand.
Damage output is not the only way that things get balanced relative to one another. Cost to acquire and simplicity of use are both balancing attributes as well. ATs don't need anything extra to make them equally as attractive as a freeform - their low cost and simplicity of use makes them attractive to the intended audience that values those attributes.
Cost to acquire cannot qualify as a balancing feature because gold ATs are equal to the same AT played by a silver. We've been over this. By your logic, ATs played by subscribers have to be equal to a FF. Then, and only then, could you make that argument with any validity.
As for simplicity, FFs have always had the option of copying an AT's build and slapping on two additional powers, so that doesn't really apply either.
How can you say ATs had any sort of balance at all when the DPS ones did wildly varying amounts of damage?
Because that was their compensation for being inferior in all other ways. And despite that advantage, they were still usually the weaker option.
Uh.... you seem to be responding to a statement I didn't make.... The DPS focused ATs were not balanced with each other.... at all. some of them were strictly inferior to other DPS focused ATS. How is that compensation for anything?
Show me two ATs that had identical features (which in this context means powers) to one another, and then I'll take you seriously.
Jokes on you, ATs weren't even assymetrically balanced with each other during the AT bug era, so if that's what you consider balanced then you should be fine with anything.
The reasons to play an AT are really quite simple to elucidate (and if someone has done so already, my apologies - I haven't the time to read through 14 pages of responses that mostly boil down to, "No, YOU!"):
1) There are a lot of free ones. You can play the game for free, in case you don't have money (I played that way for quite a long time, for that very reason). That helps with game population - we'd have even fewer players if everyone had to shell out up front. My roommate saves his money for his EvE sub, so he plays one of two free ATs - a Glacier and an Unleashed.
2) The premium ATs are a one-time purchase, something you can pick up when you're temporarily flush but know you still can't do a sub. (Used to pick one up every so often, when I was caught up on bills.)
3) Sometimes you have an idea for a toon that fits neatly into an AT, and don't want to have to spend the time to figure out exactly what powers you're going to need. Captain Americlown, for instance, is a Soldier, because he's a parody of a super-soldier. (His bio reads, "I knew we shouldn't have subcontracted the Super-Soldier Project to that guy from Ringling Brothers...") When he levels, I know what powers he's going to get, so I don't have to sit there and figure out what both works with his other powers and fits with his theme.
It isn't necessary to convince people with access to FFs to play ATs, and it shouldn't be. That's why we pay the big bucks (or did once, anyway - I still don't regret that LTS, and it'll start to be profitable in about six months.)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Comments
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But by all means, continue ignoring your own contradictions. FFs were already more "uber" than ATs before the changes.
Your pay-to-win argument isn't relevant because Golds get access to ATs too. It would be able to support the argument that subscribers should be stronger than non-subscribers, but that's not the debate here.
All right, then, since you obstinately refuse to read through the posts you've skipped, let's go through three examples of how things could be fixed:
1) The way things previously were. Every class had its own niche.
2) If AT PvP were a thing people actually did, then ATs would have the advantage of being able to access their own content, without threatening FF superiority.
3) If ATs had the full number of powers and role switching, then asymmetrical balance could be claimed on the basis that FFs couldn't just do the same build as an AT but better. You'd be effectively paying for the freedom that FF offers, which is sort of the point.
See? Easy. But you don't care about any of that, because you've now openly admitted that you want the game to be worse than it could be.
However, that's a rough way to run a business, and it probably one of the reasons we have so few dev resources to improve the game.
So, this would be my suggestion. Restrict AT's to level 30. That way, for free you can get a good sample of the game to see if you like it. Then if you want to go further, you can convert your AT to a Freeform for a few bucks and finish the grind. I'd even say give them a free retcon to go with that. If you don't want to spend any money and stay at level 30, you can still participate in the events, the MC OMs, the OV missions, and all the comic book series, for as long as you want. Give a Silver player like 3 character slots, so they can try out a few different powersets, then convert the one they like the best.
I also think that Silvers should be interrupted every now and then with advertising cutscenes. I mean, this is exactly how Youtube works, and look how successful they are. Obviously, don't do it during combat, but maybe during idle or travel time.
The thing is, the WHOLE game should not be free. Freebies should be a sampling. Something to whet one's appetite. I mean, can you imagine going into your grocery store and everything is free? When you get a wine sample at your favorite wine store, do they give you the whole bottle? Of course not! They give you a little sip. Then if you like it, you BUY the rest of the bottle.
I think to go along with this, they should make the ATs more efficient. I mean, I have an Unleashed and it has weird stuff like Force powers that do not harmonize at all with the melee attacks. I'm not saying uncap their DR, but just make them more cohesive and efficient builds. This way, people who don't want to get into the whole building stuff can still have decent characters. Keep the AT string open even after someone upgrades to Freeform, so they still have the option of following a prebuilt character, OR they can go full-on Freeform and make their old build. I know that one reason people stick with ATs is because they do not want to bother with working out a build, and that is cool. It is just that the ATs need to be built better.
Would this drive off some freebie players? Maybe, but I don't see how that matters. If you are consuming resources and not contributing, you are actually hurting the game.
Plus, this would solve the problem of so many of the AT builds sucking because they are too bizarro and inefficient.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
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My characters
You're basically standing at the store looking at two brands of Mac N Cheese, one of which is cheaper and saying "Well, the cheaper brand needs something to make it equal in quality to the more expensive brand". No, it doesn't, because you're paying less. It becomes even dumber when you're being given free Mac N Cheese and claiming it needs an equalizer to the expensive brand.
Damage output is not the only way that things get balanced relative to one another. Cost to acquire and simplicity of use are both balancing attributes as well. ATs don't need anything extra to make them equally as attractive as a freeform - their low cost and simplicity of use makes them attractive to the intended audience that values those attributes.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
As for simplicity, FFs have always had the option of copying an AT's build and slapping on two additional powers, so that doesn't really apply either. Show me two ATs that had identical features (which in this context means powers) to one another, and then I'll take you seriously.
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My characters
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
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My characters
1) There are a lot of free ones. You can play the game for free, in case you don't have money (I played that way for quite a long time, for that very reason). That helps with game population - we'd have even fewer players if everyone had to shell out up front. My roommate saves his money for his EvE sub, so he plays one of two free ATs - a Glacier and an Unleashed.
2) The premium ATs are a one-time purchase, something you can pick up when you're temporarily flush but know you still can't do a sub. (Used to pick one up every so often, when I was caught up on bills.)
3) Sometimes you have an idea for a toon that fits neatly into an AT, and don't want to have to spend the time to figure out exactly what powers you're going to need. Captain Americlown, for instance, is a Soldier, because he's a parody of a super-soldier. (His bio reads, "I knew we shouldn't have subcontracted the Super-Soldier Project to that guy from Ringling Brothers...") When he levels, I know what powers he's going to get, so I don't have to sit there and figure out what both works with his other powers and fits with his theme.
It isn't necessary to convince people with access to FFs to play ATs, and it shouldn't be. That's why we pay the big bucks (or did once, anyway - I still don't regret that LTS, and it'll start to be profitable in about six months.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.