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What could CO learn from WoW? what could WoW learn from CO?
gradii
Posts: 11,717 Arc User
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/239798-two-months-world-warcraft-legion-review-blizzard-expansion
Please don't post unless you have actual experience in both games.
Please don't post unless you have actual experience in both games.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Wow, just like other Fantasy MMO's, needs to use a character creator that is similar to CO, sliders included. It is annoying for a FANTASY MMO to have LIMITED character creation choices. WoW also needs to take a look at CO when it comes to costume choice/availability. WoW seems to like to have player characters look and dress similar to one another within their race/profession/deity. This is especially true for the half-elf race; they still look mostly elven and little human.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
When I played WoW (and I know they fixed this to a degree) you got gear hat changed your appearance but then you needed better gear...to which point everyone looked the same to a degree.
CO could take map environment design and cinematics. Gawd....imagine if they made a CO animation showing the begin of an epic battle.
As for appearance, WoW has vastly improved the transmogrification feature of the game. That said, they could still learn from CO (and SWTOR) for that matter with regards to how our characters appear. Transmogrification is great... but you have to update it every time you change a piece of gear.
To expand on my previous point... CO could take away from WoW the concept of polish. I really enjoy Champions, but it is rough. So many things just do not work as intended and it is just left that way. I am not saying WoW is bug free by any stretch but the game is, and really always has been, polished (it also has way more money and people to work on it).
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My characters
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My characters
What can WoW learn from CO? Um, aside from customization, maybe they can use CO as an example of what not to do to a game.
I was just wandering around, didn't really know much but I was learning as I went.
Then I got invited into a guild. A small guild looking to expand.
Things were so different for me then. People helping me with group content, showing me things, giving me bags, all that stuff.
Then the guild "turned serious" about raiding and I got shuffled way on down the pecking order and I ended up letting my sub go.
I came back some time later, after Cataclysm, and tried some of the new stuff out, but I now had an issue with trust.
I wanted a guild that I could stick with and that would stick with me, but I couldn't trust any guilds after what happened to me before.
I ended up just soloing my way through and quit again after a little while.
Then I went back one more time. Thought that I would give it one more try. A guild invited me in and I figured "what the heck?" and joined them.
But they were a guild focused on raiding and there was no new content at the time... A lot of their members were either taking time off or only logged in briefly. No real concern with helping others or teaming up to do other things that I could see.
I just felt sort of adrift. I managed to level a couple of characters decently... The changes they made to their skill system helped push people towards making the "right" decisions, so I learned how to play the classes/roles I selected better than I had before, but the guild thing just didn't sit well with me.
So I left again.
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Anyway, the #1 thing that CO could learn from WoW?
Team content - There is some, but Nemcon? Therakiel's Temple? These are things barely touched any more. I don't think that I have ever done, or at least completed, the Mandragalore but who ever bothers?
There are alerts/rampages, and they do not count in my mind, and there is TA.
They need to bring those other group things up to par. If not a cosmic version of the lairs then a legit level 40 version with rewards that would entice people into running them.
Viper's Nest, Moreau's Lab, all of it.
What could WoW learn from CO?
Really I think it just comes down to adding more customization options.
Not familiar with the transmogrification (I saw it but it didn't seem to be anything that I felt worth bothering with until I thought that I had "final" gear), I just mean more different faces, hair styles, facial hair, and all that other stuff that you do at character creation.
Maybe there are only so many things that they can do with a Tauren, but I'll bet that if they wanted to they could do more than they have done so far.
Community was a major issue with me and WoW.
I picked a few servers this most recent time and made some characters on each of them.
I got out there and played for a bit, paying attention to the chat.
I wanted to play alliance but on every server I tried the alliance chat was terrible. Stupid, vulgar, insulting.... The horde was not always much better, but it was better.
Maybe that's why in WoW I feel the need for a guild of some sort. Because the community at large seems desperate to meet all the bad stereotypes that geeks/gamers can get, so I want to find some shelter from that.
A group of players that I can ask questions or seek help from without being insulted for daring to speak.
I just don't know if I can say that the at-large community here is better all the time, though.
I would say that it usually is, but there are times...
Also, this is a smaller community. Add that much more to the population and general chat in MC may well approach what I saw alliance-side in WoW.
The "build x stacks of y buff then rupture with z ability" shouldn't be attached to every powerset.
I played again for a month last year and it was deserted. After playing up to WOTLK or maybe the one after. I had max levels at 85.
1 of each class-
what are we doing this dungeon repeatedly for?(I did do all the way to the lich king on my first one)
To get gear.
why?
so we can go do the next dungeon.
why?
To get gear for the next dungeon.
stuff that for a joke, next character.
Note:
1.Few people doing missions.
2. Missions have been dumbed down and a lot removed to make people feel super faster. Mobs which used to be aggro are now neutral. Experience increased on missions
3. Huge crowd of max levels standing doing nothing in the high level town.
Dungeons have been dumbed down, someone called them 5minutes, I thought they were joking. AFter doing one I knew from before had 3 difficult fights in,the third of which I remembered what the boss attack was while standing in it, with only half gear. NO death.
4. spec trees- last time I played they did the first of the dumb downs on spec trees. Making you spend 30pts in one before you could spend points in another. That got rid of all the hybrid builds. currently, under the excuse, there are too many choices. You get 7 choices during 100 levels. I found at least 2 of the 3 choices in each set to be very similar.
5. People complaining about too many levels, causing (as far as I can see) a proliferation of private servers with only the first 3 expansions.)
6. people rush through the new content and then start complaining, some skip the rush part and complain straight away.
7. ranked PVP still has hack programmes being used.
8. the AH had stuff all in it, due to the lack of players/players doing anything.
9. the server I was on , was a large PVP server(it was the one I was started on, I learnt how to deal with the arseholes) when I retried it, it was being merged with 2 other realms to try and get the population up.
CO can learn NOT to dumb down the spec trees to a choice of 3 similar abilities
CO can learn that when you put a HUGE team of Devs and a HUGE team of QA people on a game, more gets done
and people will still **** about updates not being exactly what they want.
WOW can learn that making people wait for travel powers is not a a good thing. slowly jogging everywhere is not fun
Making people go through all the levels is not fun, especially when you increase it with each update pack. One persons suggestion was to lower the level to about 85 and allow people to level through whichever zones they want by making all quests variable level.
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Silverspar on PRIMUS
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
1) When WoW was first born, there wasn't really a tried and true path for continued content releases. They had to pretty much write the book themselves once they released Burning Crusade and onward.
2) If you release new content regularly, you generally have to give players motivation to play it. This is done by making each new tier harder, but with better rewards. Raid progression in wow is a combination of learning the encounters, but also, upgrading your gear. Under a flat model, many guilds would just power through new content on the first week while others would elect to skip it entirely because they already geared up 2-3 raids ago.
3) What if you never increased the level cap? Then what? You'd keep piling raid tier after raid tier on top of each other until finally, you had this giant, impassible donald trump border wall that would take new players forever to scale.
4) Raising the level cap allows them to reset growth curve so that a new player (or old player with a new character) doesn't have to climb through several dozen raid tiers just to finally reach a point where the current endgame is accessible.
Sure, they could've left the level cap at 60 and kept all raid tiers flat. With all the content they've released, that'd give players TONS of choice in terms of which dungeons to run...
...But if the gear never scaled, who would run them? I'd already have fantastic gear from 10 years ago. Why would I want to run any of the new content more than once to sightsee?
In short, you explained nothing, you tried to side track the actual answer with a bunch of meaningless jargon, and you are doing it once again in a vane attempt to try and sound clever. WoW did not do anything revolutionary other than have the largest fall off in history by trying to appease this weakest link. WoW might be the biggest but they do continuously repeat mistakes and it has cost them, big time.
There are plenty of games and MMOs on the market now that do not raise the level cap. The level cap is just the easiest. Hell, TSW does it just fine, instead they provide levels of side grades instead that offer different ways to play the game. Not just ever increasing the numbers for no apparent reason.
Raising the level cap reset the curve, but they created a new problem. The gulf between level 1 and level whatever. You're just spinning your tires, at this point, and just trying to prove that they have the answers when they make the mistakes. And don't feed me some narcissistic non-sense that Blizzard was in uncharted waters. By the time Blizzard launched WoW there was already at least 5 major MMOs on the market, at least 3 of which were theme parks like WoW and two sandbox games (Ultima Online, Everquest, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot and Star Wars Galaxies) and that's not even including the smaller titles as well like Meridian 59 and the countless MUDDs at the time that have been around since the 70s. This was not uncharted waters Blizzard was going into, they are very well known for taking ideas from their competitors and incorporating them.
And gear is not the only reason to run the dungeon, you well know that, and not just sight seeing. There are other things they can input into the game. If you went outside of that proverbial bubble, you might see that. WoW is not the first to pioneer what they do now, not by a long shot. They were just the ones with the biggest name on the market. The curve is not reset with each expansion for new players either. It's not reset at all. It's only reset to those at the end game already as they have to again go through the paces to reach the new end game. If it wasn't for the fact that they keep boosting XP gains for lower levels with each expansion, the gulf between new player and vet player would be wider. Why do you think Blizzard implemented the instant level X program? Because the gulf has become so wide it becomes unreasonable, and new players, once they hit the level cap have a new wall to get through called gear score, which is even more unreasonable than a tier progression system use to be back in vanilla. You have this bizarre notion that a level cap boost resets the game for new players when it doesn't. That's the furthest from the truth and always has been.
New content doesn't require raid tiers to be able to compete in it, raid tiers should be their own thing. Even raiders know that much. The world content should be doable by anyone and should be independent of the raid tier. And to claim that levels are required to inspire people to play new content is both just false and bogus. In fact, the Legion expansion proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt because they had to completely dump level gating in their new isles and allow people to progress as they see fit. Why? Because TESO was doing that successfully now after they got rid of the whole level non-sense and started allowing players to play the content their way. And that's another game that proves that exponential gear and power progression is not always the answer. Side grades can be just as rewarding by offering differing things to earn. Hell if the levels were the things that made people play then everyone would level up in each WoW expansion, then quit until the new expansion instead of actually playing the raids because the raid gear itself has become meaningless when people can just quest for equivalent loot now.
In short, you've explained nothing and clearly demonstrated you are stuck in that box and never even gone beyond it, looked outside of it, or even dared to bother. Even when you are pointing at WoW everything you mention is demonstrably wrong. Considering even now, in Legions lifetime, leveling is now just a formality and does little for the growth of a character at this point beyond the mandatory stat changes, it's becoming increasingly apparent that level cap raises are actually not the way to go.
Hell if you want proof that leveling has become less of a power boost and more of a formality look at the boom in sandbox single player titles, and the desire of many MMO gamers to want to go back to the sandbox style MMO since it had been abandoned when WoW came about. Even if the sandbox game has a leveling system in it, like Skyrim or Fallout 4, it does little to actually make you much stronger and the gear in said games (outside of mods or hacks) is rarely going to turn the tide of a battle for you if you, yourself don't use it wisely. The Arkham and Deus Ex games are examples of that as well, I might get more levels, but that isn't going to turn the tide of a fight to where I can mow down enemies willy nilly. And those games have a lot of replayability but no super gear that I will get because I beat some arbitrary boss. Even in Dark Souls games you might get a new weapon but a new weapon doesn't mean it's a better weapon.
There are other methods of progression, basically, beyond the ever increasing number bloat. It's why they added that artifact weapon system in WoW now in the first place, to have an alternative progression system, but since it still relies on exponentially bloating numbers, it's still in the same rut that they were in the last two expansions; will require stat squishes.
And you are talking about Blizzard who proclaimed that they didn't want to do housing in WoW because no one wanted it, which judging by UO, SWG and DAoC was completely false, and of course these days Blizzard likes to say that no one really wants a legacy server despite many people do want a legacy server in WoW.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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1) Blizzard did end up implementing player housing in a very fitting way. It's called a Garrison. One could even consider Sunsong Ranch player housing of a sort, because only you can enter your specific Sunsong Ranch, just like only you can enter your Garrison. (Unless you specifically invite someone else in, of course)
2) Vanilla servers. LOL. "Many people" does not imply a majority, and in this case, just indicates an overly-noisy minority. I suspect that most people don't care one way or the other about vanilla servers. If they opened one up, I'd check it out, probably dink around for a few days, week at the most, but then, I'd go back to the real game. The one that's actually moving forward and regularly releasing new content. From what I've seen in every game, most players seem to want new content, not the same static, unchanging crap day after day, year after year. Even people here on CO want new content.
Vanilla wow wasn't as good as people remember, but any rational judgment gets tainted by the huge nostalgia factor. There's nothing like playing a big, new exciting game for the first time, when everything feels magical.
Whether they would segregate players in CO depends on how they're done. Ultimately we would all have the option to level up together through Grabs, so the process of leveling up wouldn't produce much segregation. Ultimately, levelers would still be leveling, and max levels would still be doing the same end game, so overall player segregation is not an effect that a new level cap would produce.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That said, it wouldn't really segregate the playerbase any more than it is now. If anything, it might bring them together, even if only for a brief period while they all slogged through alerts (or quests if alerts were rigged to not give experience past 40) before the endgamers picked up the edngame chase again while everyone else went about their normal gameplay activities.
That said, it'd be ridiculous to do one right now because CO only has one real layer of endgame content. This game's at the WoW equivalent of the beginning of an expansion. The way I see it is something like this:
Merc gear: Normal dungeon or high-end quest gear
Heroic gear: Heroic dungeon gear
Legion gear: Heroic dungeon gear (warforged/titanforged)
GCR gear: First-raid-of-the-expansion gear.
At this rate, CO will never need a level cap increase. Ever.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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My characters
What could CO teach WoW? Perhaps how to compromise. To make do. To not be depressed at not being allowed to do the best you possibly could do, but rather be satisfied with doing the best you can do with what you have right now.
These are hard lessons. Tough as hell to accept, not just in game development but in work in general. I've lost track of the number of times I have had to put on my best "win" face when presenting a project that I knew I could have done better with even a marginal increase in budget (time or money), while high-fiveing my entire team and doing everything in my power to help them to be proud of their achievement, even as I saw only the areas that weren't as good as I had wanted them to be.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.