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Archetype Changes Discussion Thread

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  • n8mcdn8mcd Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    The Specialist is a solid AT and in Hybrid makes good sense; the powers are balanced between ranged and melee and the hybrid role allows it to capitalized on that while maintaining strong survival capabilities. The AT was recently retooled, and although some complained about the changes to 2GM, I find the melee BB build I run to by very effective.​​
    Post edited by n8mcd on
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    But playing something like glacier (11 levels of ice blast, 30 levels of snow storm) is not a great experience

    I confess, I gave up on the Glacier at around level 33. And the Blade, too. The speed of power progression on ATs is horrible, in most cases (I know we keep talking about this but honestly, it's as big an issue as how OP they can be without diminishing returns).

    On the subject of DR, is there any way of changing the curve/equation? Seems to me that ATs need to be given a more sudden fall off in effect, so that they get some form of compensation for their lack of utility up to a point but not to be able to outgun an FF simply by stat maxing....
  • n8mcdn8mcd Posts: 332 Arc User
    Most of the talk here and in the game from people with access to PTS is from people overjoyed that ATs are getting 'gimped', largely it seems out of spite that some AT or other can out-play them at a particular OM, event, or duel.

    I am concerned that there will be very little constructive and honest feedback about the negatives of the change, as most folk who play ATs nigh-exclussively do not have access to the PTS, and are therefore unable to provide sufficient perspective or feedback on the new AT experience.

  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 923 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    n8mcd said:

    The Specialist is a solid AT and in Hybrid makes good sense; the powers are balanced between ranged and melee and the hybrid role allows it to capitalized on that while maintaining strong survival capabilities. The AT was recently retooled, and although some complained about the changes to 2GM, I find the melee BB build I run to by very effective.

    Well... I do think BB is the best of way to get some damage out of the AT. But, your powers really aren't balanced between ranged and melee. FotT throws that balance off by making the Specialist better at Melee. You can also take a melee damage passive, but (sadly) still be stuck in hybrid role. Not quite sure what hybrid role is really doing for you... I mean you only have holdout shot for healing. You have no Con SS, so you aren't going to be that tanky... and you don't even have the complimentary dodge/avoid powers to let you take full advantage of the defensive passive option. Also, you can't afford to run 2GM, so it is kind-of a false option... and sword cyclone is a bit of a stretch too.

    It would be nice if the specialist got an option between Concentration and FotT... so you could make a propper 2GM build.​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    I think Spinnytop has some videos, and at the level you're fighting Talos and Poe there isn't really any difference between an AT and a FF anyway (I mean, I might have gotten my passive at level 6 instead of 8, but only if it's an in-set passive). I should try it using only quest gear, though, as that's really cruddy compared to, say, heirlooms. There's an argument for adding level 6 greens for all slots to the starter box, as you don't get gear very fast in the early mission arcs.
  • likoran#4992 likoran Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    I feels a bit out of place to where this discussion go...... anyway I back right down to the AT changes.

    (My english isn't good so I apologize if things get confusing and please don't mind the noob kitty)

    The Soldier

    New power path:
    • 1 Steady shot
    • 1 Submachinegun Burst
    • 6 Shotgun Blast
    • 8 Targeting Computer
    • 11 Frag Grenade or Concussion Grenade
    • 14 Concentration
    • 17 Retaliation
    • 21 Assault Rifle
    • 25 Killer Instinct
    • 30 Lock N Load
    • 35 Smoke Grenade or Gattling Gun
    • 40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket

    • This layout is well build and decent enough to not distance the original concept of the AT before the effect hit live, but since AR is change to dish out flat damage when maintain so it would be best to buff the damage if the damage of this power is low like what other testers said.

      Gaining Furious stacks from Gattling Gun's Advantage and SMG is a good bonus to self healing outside the spec tree, especially when healing device all shared the same CD. Though small but help a lot :)

      Since AT suggestion is also welcome, would like to see some changes to the Impulse AT as well since the force framework doesn't seems to have anything special beside knocks and containment bubble that reduce damage to the mob... which can be annoying :/
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    But playing something like glacier (11 levels of ice blast, 30 levels of snow storm) is not a great experience

    I confess, I gave up on the Glacier at around level 33. And the Blade, too. The speed of power progression on ATs is horrible, in most cases (I know we keep talking about this but honestly, it's as big an issue as how OP they can be without diminishing returns).

    On the subject of DR, is there any way of changing the curve/equation? Seems to me that ATs need to be given a more sudden fall off in effect, so that they get some form of compensation for their lack of utility up to a point but not to be able to outgun an FF simply by stat maxing....

    snowstorm on the Glacier, never used it.I get Frost breath. Then shatter, then spammed Avalanche at 40​​
    Stuffing up Freeform builds since Mid 2011
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    But playing something like glacier (11 levels of ice blast, 30 levels of snow storm) is not a great experience.

    Is spamming the same attack over and over suddenly unusual in this game? What happened to the claim that most AT attacks are completely redundant? Now we want more attacks?
  • Suggestion
    Add Absorb Heat or Resurgence to the Devastator AT.


    Suggestion
    Add the Power Chord ultimate as an alternative to Unleashed Rage on the Rockstar AT, so it can be chosen if you have the power unlocked on the account.


    Suggestion
    Replace either of the Hexslinger AT's role tree with Vindicator. I think that any of the combinations would work better for the AT than its current one.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    Is spamming the same attack over and over suddenly unusual in this game? What happened to the claim that most AT attacks are completely redundant? Now we want more attacks?

    Go and level up a Glacier. It suffers from the usual main problems of ATs - cul de sac power "choices" where one route is so much better than the other, a weird combination of superstats and specs that no-one else, reasonably, would take, and getting the best power at level 40. It's really dull.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Is spamming the same attack over and over suddenly unusual in this game? What happened to the claim that most AT attacks are completely redundant? Now we want more attacks?

    I have leveled Gracier TWICE in the past (never again)

    Snow Storm sucks, its sucks SO BAD, it sucks so bad it makes leveling this AT a nightmare and I wanted DEVs to buff this power

    Yeah I could go with Frost Breath, but I dislike breath powers

    when you reach lvl 40 and get Avalanche, you will NEVER use Snow Storm or Frost Breath ever again​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    I...actually liked Snow Storm w/ advantage? Granted, it takes a certain mindset and playstyle. I tended to full charge the maintain and then focuesd on different things while the damage lingered. I wouldn't say no to a damage buff but I'm fine with what it does. The Glacier felt worlds easier to level than the Behemoth. Glacier was my second lvl 40 while I gave up on the Behemoth.

    I disagree with not ever using Snow Storm of Frost Breath at 40. Especially Frost Breath considering the advantage makes aoe Chill setup so easy.
    "Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."

    -Sterga
  • gemini2099gemini2099 Posts: 118 Arc User
    I am going to go against the grain and say I have way more fun on my AT than my free form character.

    So, from my view I have a vested interest in seeing the AT be a lot of fun to play with the rebalancing proposed in this thread. I do not care about numbers like others are worried about.

    Is it fun?

    On paper the new soldier changes look fun, but that sticking point for me is having to choose between Gattling and Smoke Grenade. Smoke Grenade makes soldier so much better as an AT (even if it annoys your melee teammates every time you put it down :P.)
    Gemini - Lvl 4x - Soldier
    Omicron - Lvl 4x - Mind
    Emerald Myst - Lvl 2x - Claws/Fighting Hybrid
    Epsilon - Lvl 2x - Blade
    Asterius - Lvl 1x - Electric/Void Hybrid

  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 736 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    On paper the new soldier changes look fun, but that sticking point for me is having to choose between Gattling and Smoke Grenade. Smoke Grenade makes soldier so much better as an AT (even if it annoys your melee teammates every time you put it down :P.)

    That is how I see it as well. The choice is either a giant aoe that scream Soldier and a nade that can help prevent the Soldier from grabbing attention. At the very least, I would have the Smoke Grenade become a choice between another Grenade instead.

  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,078 Cryptic Developer
    Build FC.31.20170112.0058d.10 ======================================​​
  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    The Blade looks good. I was about to comment about removing Inexorable Tides but with Scything Blade gaining a knockdown w/ advantage, the AT maintains some soft control and at a lower level too. The one bit of weirdness is that the level 40 choices are useful but underwhelming. I'd almost suggest swapping the order of the lvl 35 and 40 choices but I have a feeling that would be unpopular.

    While still annoyed at the changes, the revised progression for the Soldier looks much better and will be more playable. I genuinely didn't know Gatling Gun was Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. The choices now make better sense and should make choices feel more different.

    For those who take it, faster startup on Force Snap will help the Unleashed a fair bit. Though I have to ask if Way of the Warrior is a hard replacement for Unstoppable or will it be an either/or option? The KB resistance on Unstoppable is still valid.
    "Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."

    -Sterga
  • gemini2099gemini2099 Posts: 118 Arc User

    6 Holdout Shot OR Rifle Butt
    11 Concentration
    14 Shotgun OR Gatling Gun
    30 Lock N Load OR Smoke Grenade
    35 Frag Grenade OR Concussion Grenade


    The new progression for soldier looks really good on paper.

    Blade also seems to be a lot better power progression wise as well.


    Gemini - Lvl 4x - Soldier
    Omicron - Lvl 4x - Mind
    Emerald Myst - Lvl 2x - Claws/Fighting Hybrid
    Epsilon - Lvl 2x - Blade
    Asterius - Lvl 1x - Electric/Void Hybrid

  • servantrulesservantrules Posts: 312 Arc User
    kaizerin said:


    The Soldier

    New power path:

    • 1 Steady shot
    • 1 Submachinegun Burst
    • 6 Holdout Shot OR Rifle Butt
    • 8 Targeting Computer
    • 11 Concentration
    • 14 Shotgun OR Gatling Gun
    • 17 Retaliation
    • 21 Assault Rifle
    • 25 Killer Instinct
    • 30 Lock N Load OR Smoke Grenade
    • 35 Frag Grenade OR Concussion Grenade
    • 40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket
    This looks better! Thanks for taking the suggestion to add Rifle Butt in there somewhere (a situational power, but fits the theme). Pairing it with Holdout shot is ok, I think, as it gives options. Most players would choose holdout, but it's nice to have choices.

    Shotgun or Gatling Gun. Interesting. Makes the choice tough at first glance.
    kaizerin said:


    The Unleashed

    New power path:

    • 1 Rain of Steel
    • 2 Blade Tempest
    • 6 Form of the Tempest
    • 8 Way of the Warrior
    • 11 Force Snap or Strike Down
    • 14 Force Eruption or Eye of the Storm
    • 17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence or Mind Wipe
    • 21 Dragon's Wrath
    • 25 Force Shield
    • 30 Relentless
    • 35 Intensity or Field Surge
    • 40 Containment Field or Force Geyser

    Yes! Way of the Warrior! Thank you! Unstoppable isn't a bad passive, but it really is better suited for tougher builds with CON as one of the SSS. This synergizes more with BCR and RR and the DEX tree.
    kaizerin said:



    The Blade

    Corrected diminishing returns.

    New power progression:

    • 1 Reaper's Touch
    • 1 Reaper's Caress
    • 6 Thunderbolt Lunge or Cut Down
    • 8 Way of the Warrior
    • 11 Scything Blade
    • 14 Form of the Swordsman
    • 17 Reaper's Embrace OR Dragon's Bite
    • 21 Parry
    • 25 Relentless
    • 30 Smoke Bomb or Bountiful Chi Resurgence
    • 35 Masterful Dodge OR Intensity
    • 40 Shuriken Throw OR Chained Kunai
    ​​
    BCR for the Blade? Yes! Finally. This balances it a bit more as a viable AT choice that can solo without relying on a ton of healing consumables/devices. Placement is odd (Level 30) as it will still be a struggle for new players, but at least there's something to look forward to. Interesting that the Ranged option is so late as well, but all in all, Blade is looking promising and almost as good as Unleashed now.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    avianos said:


    when you reach lvl 40 and get Avalanche, you will NEVER use Snow Storm or Frost Breath ever again​​

    I played a Glaciar for years. Continued using frost breath at 40 cause you can move while using it, and cause it creates a bunch of ice cubes nice and quick for shattering. There's really no issues with Glaciar aoe, it has an okay setup, and there's reason to do more than just use Avalance and Frost breath, glacier has some neat stuff. On the other hand, you wanna talk about Glacier single target? Cause that's a short conversation - Ice Blast. That's where the AT needs something: single target.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    My only issue with the blade AT is scything blade -- its only selling point ever has been Swallowtail Cut, which is notoriously broken when it does anything at all. Scything blade should either be modified further (for example, it would actually be useful if it could stack bleeds) or made optional (say, move dragon's bite down to a choice with it).
  • edited February 2017

    When I said an AT that had most of the features of a FF, I was thinking more along the lines of an AT that could choose any powers but not the role changing or extra two powers. That would play very much like a FF.

    That wouldn't be an AT. The fundamental thing that makes it an AT is the limits on what powers you can choose.

    If we are going to talk about what we would do if it were us, I would personally let the FFs have their higher dps, if they want it so much, and then throw some minor bone to ATs

    They're getting a bone: a lot of horribad builds are being updated to be saner.
    ATs already have some options. FFs just get more of them. The ability to change role and have two extra powers are therefore a bigger portion of what it means to be FF, because ATs can't do that to any degree at all. Of course, these are arbitrary definitions anyway, and have no relevance to anything. A FF is a FF because the game engine says it is, not because of any particular mechanics they have, because those mechanics can theoretically be changed at any time.

    If ATs are having their only advantage removed and not being given another, then they aren't being given a bone; they're having their only bone taken away.

  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Unleashed's Build is not obnoxious anymore, that's quite an accomplishment, I always hated that AT's build

    I don't like Relentless for this, Steadfast would be better, but i guess you want to encourage players to use Blade Tempest (which is a GREAT AoE combo, and you are a criminal for not using it) instead of brainlessly spamming Dragon's Wrath

    Didn't even notice Storm's Harvest was removed until people mentioned it, it's worthless power really, once you get DW
    The Blade
    Corrected diminishing returns.
    New power progression:
    1 Reaper's Touch
    1 Reaper's Caress
    6 Thunderbolt Lunge or Cut Down
    8 Way of the Warrior
    11 Scything Blade
    14 Form of the Swordsman
    17 Reaper's Embrace OR Dragon's Bite
    21 Parry
    25 Relentless
    30 Smoke Bomb or Bountiful Chi Resurgence
    35 Masterful Dodge OR Intensity
    40 Shuriken Throw OR Chained Kunai

    So blade got upgraded from no Self healings into having 2 self healing options, that's pretty neat

    However, i don't like the choice between Reaper's Embrace OR Dragon's Bite​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • Relentless is more worthless than Storm's Harvest, because Storm's Harvest has edge cases where it is helpful (does the Unleashed even have another way of rooting?). Relentless does absolutely nothing for the Unleashed.

    It would be better if players could choose between the two.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Tested the Devastator AT, it's damage is somewhere between 5.8k and 6.3k for me (6.3k in some parses when crit chance spiked quite a bit for some reason). That is ok ish, but does require the flanking spec so it's not always possible to get that.
  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    Now that I sit and think about it, shouldn't the choice for Blade and Unleashed be Relentless vs Dragon's Wrath/Dragon's Bite? It would mean picking between an EU or an attack that gives energy management.
    "Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."

    -Sterga
  • > @spinnytop said:
    > But playing something like glacier (11 levels of ice blast, 30 levels of snow storm) is not a great experience.
    >
    > Is spamming the same attack over and over suddenly unusual in this game? What happened to the claim that most AT attacks are completely redundant? Now we want more attacks?

    Well, it's not my fault people endlessly spam 1 good attack. The point that I hope the devs get out of this side discussion is that mathematical balance and play-style balance are both issues. Redundant attacks may not be as redundant as people think, how many glacier and 2-blade methods have people listed, and they all work. Love the old frost breath - shatter .. I miss the little borken energy return it had [and old hard frost spam] .. but that's a fight for when Glacier is on the list

    On to blade .. and .. yup .. play style issue again.
  • ordinaryplayer#2642 ordinaryplayer Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    > The Blade
    > Corrected diminishing returns.
    > New power progression:
    > * 1 Reaper's Touch
    > * 1 Reaper's Caress
    > * 6 Thunderbolt Lunge or Cut Down
    > * 8 Way of the Warrior
    > * 11 Scything Blade
    > * 14 Form of the Swordsman
    > * 17 Reaper's Embrace OR Dragon's Bite <------- It's sophie's choice of blade attacks!
    > * 21 Parry
    > * 25 Relentless <--- you mean SteadFast ?right?
    > * 30 Smoke Bomb or Bountiful Chi Resurgence <---- Yes a heal!
    > * 35 Masterful Dodge OR Intensity
    > * 40 Shuriken Throw OR Chained Kunai <--- Anticlimactic, but needs to go some where??

    <font color="#4a86e8">Suggestion</font> Play-style problem here, classic blade is building, maintaining, and popping bleeds. It differs from 2-blade/Unleashed with it's ability to crank out massive bursts of damage (Burst vs Avg-DPS). This is playable, but comes of as very 'unleashed-like' if Dragon's byte is chosen. (Eye of Storm + Force attacks vs. Reaper's Embrace + bleeds). Nice not to have Sohpie's choice here.

    <font color="#4a86e8">Suggestion</font> Relentless vs Steadfast: Ret scales with endurance (tool tip is correct?). Blade doesn't have END. All the attacks are MA tree (? missing something here ?) so Steadfast. EU will help effective combo play (3xRC->charge attack + 20% combo bonus ... yes!) as some one mentioned for unleashed.

    -- UPDATE: Relentless Changing to REC scaling, Steadfast still better choice.


    Side Note .. nearly suggested Steadfast for 2-Blade, but the force tree is there. Does Unleashed need a more proper EU [End SS scaling, no END]

    Seeing if I can keep both good attacks, do it logically, and keep ranged, and follow current example. I'd suggest changing Lunge/Scything Blade order. We may need a new player to say if lunge or attack is better sooner, lunge would assist poor travel power choices and newbie closing the gaps on tripped mobs.

    <font color="#4a86e8">Suggestion</font> Blade V1: Dragon Byte as EU Keep both attacks
    -Blade V1-
    1. Reap Touch
    2. Reap Caress
    6. Thunder Bolt or other Lunge .....> [alt: Scything Blade]
    8. WOW
    11. Scything Blade ......> [alt: Lunge Choice]
    14. Swordsman
    17. Reapers Embrace
    21. Parry
    25. *SteadFast* or Dragon Byte ......> Cause they're both energy management ! ? !
    30. Chi-Heal or <the other thing no one picks>
    35 Dodge or Intensity
    40 ..Ranged Attacks..

    Looking at Unleashed, looks like the choice is lunge vs ranged (yes irony using unleashed to make it less unleashed-like)

    <font color="#4a86e8">Suggestion</font> Alternate Blade: Ranged vs Melee Choices - Keep both attacks

    1 Reaper's Touch
    2 Reaper's Caress
    6 1 Lunge or 1 Ranged Attack <-- now I've made problems here removing a ranged attack
    8 WOW
    11 Scything Blade <-- + so optional "or" the other ranged attack here --> Shuriken Throws
    14 Swordman
    17 Dragon's Bite
    21 Parry
    25 Steadfast
    30 Heal or Something Else
    35 Dodge or Intensity
    40 Reaper's Embrace

    And then massage the the order of powers. Kind of removed the more ninja qualities at first, so went back .. now Shuriken could be a Scything alternate (both proc an initial bleed). Again i'd reverse 6/11 power choice.
    Post edited by ordinaryplayer#2642 on
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 923 Arc User
    That new soldier and blade actually look pretty decent! O.O

    Switching the Unleashed's unstoppable for WotW gives me mixed feelings. I mean, I enjoyed Unstoppable's energy from knocks aspect. And the new lunge has a knockdown... so increased synergy there. But, WotW has that synergy with BCR, so that's a plus.

    BCR really makes more sense for the Blade. You have parry and WotW, so it all works nicely together. What about keeping the Unleashed's Unstoppable passive and switching out BCR? Conviction is a decent heal... but it lacks that HoT to tick away under yer Eye of the Storm shield. Vala's light? No... maybe a restoration power of some kind?
  • criswolf09criswolf09 Posts: 748 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Instead of having a forced change from Unstoppable to WoTW could we have this choice for the Unleashed?


    Suggestion
    Also in the Blade AT, I wonder if we could keep Reaper's Embrace at level 17 and then choice between Dragon's Bite and Relentless please?


    Suggestion
    Could the Open Wound adv on several powers and Eviscerate's Deep Wound be counted to work with Relentless please?


    Suggestion
    I think Steadfast is a better option for the Unleashed given it can only apply Shredded on the third strike of Blade Tempest could we have at least a choice between both Energy Unlocks please?
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  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 736 Arc User
    The new Soldier Setup looks great, though I'm curious as to why you didn't just make Smoke Grenade a choice between another Grenade instead.
  • Suggestion
    Make it an option for the Grimoire to choose the Sentinel role tree instead of Guardian, for those who want to focus more on the support aspect of this AT. The Grimoire has too many Sigil choices. I'd suggest a few changes in it's power progression:

    17 Arcane Vitality
    30 Sigils of Ebon Destruction/Hex of Suffering/a sorcery DPS power OR Vala's Light


    Also when you were doing changes to the Grimoire AT you mentioned that Concentration may be replaced with Spellcaster.
    Is this something that is still considered and would it only be a change to the form or the AT's powers too?
  • Suggestion
    Change the Witch AT power progression. Right now it seems like it isn't good enough to be a healer or a crowd controller.
    It should have an option for a direct 50-100 ft heal for allies that are not nearby you. It could use more CC options too, like Ego Sleep and Mind Lock.


    1: Infernal Bolts
    1: Condemn OR Venomous Breath
    6: Life Essence
    8: Aura of Arcane Clarity
    11: Sigils of Ebon Weakness OR Ego Sleep
    14: Compassion OR Manipulator
    17: Grasping Shadows OR Iniquity
    21: Voodoo Doll
    25: Supernatural Power OR Mephitic
    30: Curse OR Will-o'-the-Wisp
    35: Death's Embrace OR Imbue(this power is not really needed IMO)
    40: Rebirth OR Mind Lock
  • I second the idea for the unleashed to be able to choose between wow and unstoppable. The trend lately has been towards more options in ATs, and this is a case where it makes perfect sense.

    And again, let us choose between storms harvest or relentless, if only for the sake of reverse compatibility.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    The Soldier:

    Is Rifle Butt getting a heal advantage that I missed? If not, then I'm going to point out, again, that the choice between the only heal in the entire build and a power that doesn't heal is dumb. Especially considering there are other control effects that don't require being in melee range on a squishy mcsuper squish toon.

    Shot Gun VS Gat Gun and Lock'n'Load VS Smoke 'nades? ... *sigh*

    The Automaton:

    Cybernetic tether is only 25ft. It's annoying to use on this ranged toon. Minimines and Particle Mine are pretty 'meh' for a ranged AT.


    I don't understand why ATs, which are gimped by their lack of power selection ability and lower number of total powers, need to have these other ridiculous issues. An amazingly put together AT still won't be as good as a decent FF.​​
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  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    1 Steady shot
    1 Submachinegun Burst
    6 Holdout Shot OR Rifle Butt
    8 Targeting Computer
    11 Concentration
    14 Shotgun OR Gatling Gun
    17 Retaliation
    21 Assault Rifle
    25 Killer Instinct
    30 Lock N Load OR Smoke Grenade
    35 Frag Grenade OR Concussion Grenade
    40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket

    Hmm. This isn't right.

    I don't get Rifle Butt. This is a great power for enemies to annoy Heroes but given that it doesn't affect bosses, and that normal groups of enemies appear in groups of three, what's the point of a single target stun? I also don't see why there's any reason to fixate over Holdout Shot (which you don't really need) or choose between Shotgun and Gatling. Try this one. It's pretty close to the current Soldier AT but gives you a self-heal at lower levels (if you want it), and a logical choice throughout of Damage vs Self-preservation. Swap Retaliation and KI over if I've got the Tiers wrong (but I don't think I have...)

    1 Steady shot
    1 Submachinegun Burst
    6 Shotgun or Holdout Shot
    8 Targeting Computer
    11 Concentration
    14 Frag Grenade OR Concussion Grenade
    17 Killer Instinct
    21 Assault Rifle
    25 Retaliation
    30 Lock N Load OR Smoke Grenade
    35 Gatling Gun
    40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket


  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    Shotgun vs Gatling technically makes sense considering it somewhat mimics the old choice of Rocket vs Gatling in that it's mitigation and burst damage versus dps. It just feels somewhat weird. However, I do feel that Rifle Butt can be dropped entirely. While some of the ranged AT's can play in melee, I really wouldn't suggest it for the Soldier, especially since it already has mitigation.

    @servantrules Thing is, the old version of the Soldier felt fairly optimized. A heal actually was the only thing it lacked. Different choices felt like varied playstyles as opposed to gimping. Adding onto that, a lot of the ATs have been improved from what they once were.
    "Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."

    -Sterga
  • ztarztormerztarztormer Posts: 33 Arc User
    What purpose does the new Relentless energy unlock serve on the Unleashed? Your attacks don't cause bleeds or shredded. Steadfast would be much better imo.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    What purpose does the new Relentless energy unlock serve on the Unleashed? Your attacks don't cause bleeds or shredded. Steadfast would be much better imo.

    Unleashed has a combo that applies Shredded.
  • I see the design choices so far as making the ATs "well enough" not "great" and "you can try this power and that power for free on this AT" while sticking to a theme. IMHO, approach the suggestions with that perspective.

    Stick to theme, probably yes. Things like turning soldier from heavy weapons guns into light weapon (2gm) probably isn't going to happen. That's just a different AT. Chances are you can't make them all wardicator/vindicator loop either. You may have slim chance of re-super-stating them as new ATs have squeezed CON SS in. Plus some SS trees options really need a dev pass.

    But you want great ATs. Flop down some builds, now is the time devs ears are open.


  • edited February 2017
    spinnytop said:

    What purpose does the new Relentless energy unlock serve on the Unleashed? Your attacks don't cause bleeds or shredded. Steadfast would be much better imo.

    Unleashed has a combo that applies Shredded.
    Specifically, the third hit of Blade Tempest. This is why some Unleashed players mix it into their DW routine.

    But if we're really going to talk about improving AT builds, then a lot of them need to have Con as an SS. It's a staple for a reason. At the very least, all of the melee ones should have it, simply because they're likely to take so much damage.
  • hemslordhemslord Posts: 164 Arc User
    Re The Soldier Changes:

    Rifle Butt vs Holdout Shot - No contest here for the Holdout Shot w/adv for the heal. Not entirely sure on the thinking here.

    Shotgun vs Gatling Gun - Again, not sure about this as both powers are used for such different reasons. I've never considered Shotgun an AoE DPS, and always used it to keep the enemy at a distance. I'll need to test this out and see how it performs.

    Lock N Load vs Smoke Grenade - I'd have thought that since the DR on AT's are being fixed, the high end geared characters would have their damage heavily reduced so they shouldn't be pulling aggro from the tank as often without an AO, making smoke grenade almost obsolete immediately? Especially since Smoke Grenade doesn't actually work as a threat wipe half the time (for me at least).

    Frag Grenade vs Concussion Grenade - A good pairing with pros and cons for both sides, I would have preferred to have seen concussion grenade and its advantage as separate advantages for Frag Grenade. It seems a little odd to have them separate to me. Additionally, if you did combine them, you could choose between Smoke Grenade and Frag Grenade as opposed to Smoke and LnL which seems bizarre.

    Sniper Rifle vs Rocket - No complaints on this one. I've always been a huge fan of the Sniper Rifle and use it more often than my Assault Rifle. Both powers and nice openers.

    Speaking of Assault Rifle, it feels like it got hit with the nerf hammer pretty harshly. The damage I got on the PTS was awful, but that may just be because I'm so used to my current damage that I am assuming its bad. I'll have to test it a bit more.

    I will ask again but I know it will go unnoticed, please can we get retrain tokens on the PTS so that we can actually compare AT vs FF using our current mods/gear, some of which are not available on the PTS and likely never will be.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Posts: 227 Arc User
    hemslord said:

    Re The Soldier Changes:

    Rifle Butt vs Holdout Shot - No contest here for the Holdout Shot w/adv for the heal. Not entirely sure on the thinking here.

    Usually, developers disregard metagame issues, presenting game elements as equal, regardless of usefulness in practice.

    This particular instance, if I were to wager a guess is probably because the two abilities are presented as "do you want the ability to physically smack your opponents with your rifle, or would you want to use your pistol for an emergency projectile attack?" ...probably disgregarding advantages, no matter how useful. It might help more if you point out the imbalance both powers have in the metagame and the reasoning behind it, as opposed to assuming the devs are minding the metagame at all initially.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    I think I did that earlier, tbh. My advice overall for the AT changes would be:

    a) Implement DR
    b) update the obvious power choice failings in the older AT builds - the ones that attract too much aggro and have no threat wipe, the ones that need a self-heal and don't have one
    c) Give Gold users a Retrain token for their ATs if they don't like the new builds
    d) leave the rest alone. This includes stats, specialisations and, tbh, non-broken powers. You don't need to move things around Tiers, change things from three to five targets and then back to three. At the moment there are so many changes flying about I can't keep track, and the effects on the FF builds are even more irritating than ever (I know I mention this a lot, but there are 2 more blasted Retcons in the Munitions changes, and I've just fixed one of the characters from the Overdrive nerf...).

    Overall I suspect this process will break more than it fixes, and that's a shame.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    A melee build without Con is not a good build, though. That's why it became a staple in the first place.

    If we want ATs to be effective methods of training new players to make good builds, then they need to have the necessary ingredients. That means they need to be internally complete (ie, have all the things they need to do their job effectively). That usually includes Con, unless you consider builds that die instantly in rampages to be "good".

    That said, I am doubtful the developers would ever consider it.

    Builds with no CON do not die instantly in anything. I've seen folks without CON as a superstat do just fine.

    EDIT: With that said I would suggest making it as an option that melee ATs can select, not mandatory or automatic.
  • servantrulesservantrules Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    A melee build without Con is not a good build, though. That's why it became a staple in the first place.

    I disagree. CON is a staple in many builds because it's mostly for survivability. Moreover, it fuels the better specs and advantages (i.e. Juggernaut, Ego Surge+Nimble Mind). But there are good FF builds without CON that do well enough. They're not "great" or "the best" builds, but they do fine (which is, once again, the perspective the ATs are being approached with).
    darqaura2 said:

    With that said I would suggest making it as an option that melee ATs can select, not mandatory or automatic.

    That would be an interesting update. Having at least one Super Stat be "optional". However, it would probably be limited to only have one other selection that still matches the theme.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    A melee build without Con is not a good build, though. That's why it became a staple in the first place.

    Things become staples because they're easy not necessarily because they are good. Running AoPM in Hybrid is not good in team content....but it's a staple because it's easy to play that setup.

    As another example, none of my melee dps builds have Con as an SS. But they perform really well as far as melee dps goes.

    If we want ATs to be effective methods of training new players to make good builds, then they need to have the necessary ingredients. That means they need to be internally complete (ie, have all the things they need to do their job effectively). That usually includes Con, unless you consider builds that die instantly in rampages to be "good".

    If you say "ability to survive" instead of "Con", then I would agree. I think ATs should get players interested in the game enough to want to invest money and time into it. ATs don't have to train them to build or do anything. They do need to provide an intriguing experience for someone trying out the game for the first time.
  • thebuckeyethebuckeye Posts: 814 Arc User
    edited February 2017


    Archetype: The Grenadier

    Super Stats:
    Level 6: Ego (Primary)
    Level 10: Int (Secondary)
    Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

    Talents:
    Level 1: The Grenadier (10 Ego, 10 Int, 10 Rec, 8 Dex)
    Level 7:
    Level 12:
    Level 15:
    Level 20:
    Level 25:
    Level 30:

    Powers:
    Level 1: Particle Rifle
    Level 1: Submachinegun Burst
    Level 6: Pulse Beam Rifle
    Level 8: Targeting Computer
    Level 11: Smoke Grenade or Entangling Mesh
    Level 14: Concentration
    Level 17: Frag Grenade
    Level 21: Incendiary Grenade or Flame Thrower
    Level 25: Molecular Self-Assembly
    Level 30: Energy Shield
    Level 35: Stun Grenade
    Level 40: Implosion Engine

  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,078 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2017
    Build FC.31.20170112.0058d.13 ======================================​​
  • criswolf09criswolf09 Posts: 748 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Suggestion: Can the Scourge and Cursed ATs have their power progression changed to this one as well having their diminishing returns fixed?

    Level 1: Infernal Bolts
    Level 1: Infernal Blast OR Lash
    Level 6: Condenm
    Level 8: Pestilence
    Level 11: Vicious Cyclone OR Venomous Breath
    Level 14: Aspect of the Infernal
    Level 17: Vile Lariat OR Locust Swarm
    Level 21: Ebon Void
    Level 25: Supernatural Power OR Mephitic
    Level 30: Resurgence OR Rebirth
    Level 35: Epidemic
    Level 40: Defile
    ​​
    Useful Guides about Archetypes and General Gameplay of the Game Click Here
  • puppyfartspuppyfarts Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    suggestion: Revert Specialist changes just correct diminishing returns that AT is good as it is... or maybe just change the SS to Strength (Primary) Ego (Secondary) Dexterity (Secondary)
This discussion has been closed.