Which is the best form for a Telekinetik Character?

criswolf09 · May 2016

Hello guys and girls, I've wondering for a long time which Form provides a larger damage bonus to a Telekinetik character. For example for a Melee Ego Blade character, Form of the Tempest is the recommended one, and for a Ranged one Concentration or Chilled form are the recommended ones, but what about Mental Discipline? I've heard that FoT, Concentration and Ego forms are "additive" damage bonus, while Mental Discipline is "multiplicative". That is confusing, can someone who is good with the game's math suggest or explain the difference between these two terms and in conclusion which form provides the best bonus please?

flowcyto · May 2016

There is no 'Ego form' toggle, unless you mean the Ego Form slotted passive.

CO uses multiple layers in its algorithms for determining damage, so trying to discuss these can get confusing. 'Additive' and 'multiplicative' aren't really accurate terms, in this case, but probably referring to a damage bonus that's only in one early layer vs. one that modifies all dmg variables. Check this thread for a bit more clarification:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/251612/damage-bonus-layers

Instead of using additive or multiplicative, its more direct to just describe the dmg layer its in (or that you think its in). ex. Most toggles like FotT's dmg bonuses are in the 'passive dmg' (or 'dmg strength') layer that's also shared by general things like SS dmg bonuses, Ego_Str dmg bonuses to ranged_melee, or the dmg bonuses from slotted passives (hence why I like to call it the 'passive layer', but this is just a personal pref). On the other hand, MDisc's dmg bonus is in the same layer as crit severity and Offense (or just 'the severity layer').

As to FotT/Conc vs. MDisc: MDisc is likely going to be better for pure dps for TK builds, mostly due to the flat crit it adds w/ Ego Leech stacks, but that's assuming that you don't have energy issues using it over an energy-granting toggle, and it will depend on the gear and the build a bit. If ur build does have energy issues when using MDisc, then it may not be a dps increase to use over the alternatives.

criswolf09 · May 2016

Thanks a lot Flow, always helpful when you are needed.

raighn · May 2016

On the note of energy issues with Mental Discipline... having run a TK blades build with Mental Discipline for years I can assure you that energy should be of little concern due to the way Ego Leech works and use of TK Annihilation/Lance with Ego Reverb as your EU... Ego Leech reduces the cost of mentalist powers so at a full 5 stack your powers are dirt cheap, using TK Annihilation or TK Lance with their advantages to consume your Ego Leech stacks will help keep your energy roling since it removes RNG from the equation on your Ego Leech stacks by insuring that you will get 1 stack per second over the next 5 seconds if you rotate TK Annihilation/Lance in every time you hit 5 stacks Ego Leech... the energy from Ego Reverb will more than make up for the fluctuating power costs. Additionally since TK blades scale with Ego instead of STR, if you go EGO PSS for cost reduction and crits then you'll find yourself with a very high damage potential.

I've had many people tell me that i should be using FoTT instead of MD, but since I have no energy issues with MD I don't see the point in switching to it, especially since with my personal experience I deal far more damage with MD than I do with FoTT. Even with my Ego Leech stacks constantly in rotation the way I have them.

riverocean · May 2016

There have been some good Shadow Form + TK Builds out there. I can't find any of my old links to them though. But if memory serves, Shadow Form + Ego Surge (w/Nimble Mind) makes for a great TK blader.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

Note that mental discipline doesn't require any particular stats and doesn't require you to focus on melee or ranged.

raighn · May 2016

riverocean said:
There have been some good Shadow Form + TK Builds out there. I can't find any of my old links to them though. But if memory serves, Shadow Form + Ego Surge (w/Nimble Mind) makes for a great TK blader.

That pretty well defines my TK blade build... though mine is a mix of TK blade and TK ranged...

xoriandruid · September 2016

So people pick mental discipline over ego form or id blades for a mix of ranged and melee then?

theravenforce · September 2016

xoriandruid said:
So people pick mental discipline over ego form or id blades for a mix of ranged and melee then?

Mental Discipline is not a Slotted Passive, it's a form power.

Ego Form & ID Mastery are Slotted Passives.

Mental Discipline is a good form power to choose if you are mixing both Ego Blades with ranged TK abilities since it doesn't necessarily require any scaling from stats etc.

sykov · September 2016

It would be neat for Mental Discipline to stack like most of the other forms.

kallethen · September 2016

Please no. MD's fine as it is. I'd rather not have another "flavor" of a stacking form.

xoriandruid · September 2016

I see, so maybe instead of picking ego or or id mastery maybe I should pick something like seraphim, I just dont want my melee for example out perform my ranged or vice versa.

theravenforce · September 2016

xoriandruid said:
I see, so maybe instead of picking ego or or id mastery maybe I should pick something like seraphim, I just dont want my melee for example out perform my ranged or vice versa.

Ego Form provides a damage boost to your ranged TK and Melee TK equally. It's only ID Mastery which focuses on melee TK bonuses

xoriandruid · September 2016

Hmmm well I was thinking of this other combo because of the self healing and the fact crit chances increase chance of healing from ego blade. And at low levels by default my tk burst was doing way more dps then frenzy.

kallethen · September 2016

Actually....

I have two toons that are in support role with Seraphim as a passive, one with ranged TK and the other melee TK. The support role makes energy management super easy (use TKL or EBA to feed Ego Reverb like raighn suggested). The role plus Seraphim also makes your heals good. You probably do sacrifice some DPS in because of the role, but you could also go Hybrid (though that will reduce energy management). I make up for the DPS with going Ego primary and Dex/Con secondary (building for high crits) and Guardian/Vindicator for the Best Defense/Aggressive Stance combo.

If you want as much DPS as possible, probably best to stick to an offensive passive. But Seraphim can make a pretty good balanced build in my experience.

xoriandruid · September 2016

kallethen said:
Actually....

I have two toons that are in support role with Seraphim as a passive, one with ranged TK and the other melee TK. The support role makes energy management super easy (use TKL or EBA to feed Ego Reverb like raighn suggested). The role plus Seraphim also makes your heals good. You probably do sacrifice some DPS in because of the role, but you could also go Hybrid (though that will reduce energy management). I make up for the DPS with going Ego primary and Dex/Con secondary (building for high crits) and Guardian/Vindicator for the Best Defense/Aggressive Stance combo.

If you want as much DPS as possible, probably best to stick to an offensive passive. But Seraphim can make a pretty good balanced build in my experience.

Thats exactly what im doing for hybrid actually. I am running seraphim with mental discipline though, it does seem to drain end so it may not work out.

flowcyto · September 2016

If using MDisc, then ur more dependent on an EU to give back energy. I assume that's Ego Reverb, so Ego will be more important then.

xoriandruid · September 2016

flowcyto said:
If using MDisc, then ur more dependent on an EU to give back energy. I assume that's Ego Reverb, so Ego will be more important then.

You mean ego stat or form?

flowcyto · September 2016

Ego the stat

xoriandruid · September 2016

flowcyto said:
Ego the stat

Ahhh I see now, anwyays I think im going to go back to ego form for soloing, I think the seraphim is for late builds.

xoriandruid · September 2016

theravenforce said:

xoriandruid said:
I see, so maybe instead of picking ego or or id mastery maybe I should pick something like seraphim, I just dont want my melee for example out perform my ranged or vice versa.
Ego Form provides a damage boost to your ranged TK and Melee TK equally. It's only ID Mastery which focuses on melee TK bonuses

Quick question about this, if I switched to ranged role wont that lower the physical dps? So for them to be balanced stay in hybrid?

flowcyto · September 2016

Ego Form boosts all Paranormal dmg, and to a lesser extent all Physical dmg (prob cause the set has TK Maelstrom, but this allows some build cross-over). ID Mastery boosts Paranormal melee dmg (basically just TK blades) by an even larger amount then Ego Form, but boosts all other (ranged) Paranormal dmg by an amount lower than Ego Form. They both also reduce the cost of Mentalist powers, and both give some general dmgRes, though ID Mastery's is higher, but Ego Form also gives extra dmgRes vs. inc Ego dmg in particular.

Basically, Ego Form is the more generalist passive of the two, while ID Mastery is more niche, but has more power w/in that niche.

Going for a dps role will only boost melee or ranged by ~25%, though it also doesn't offer a dmg penalty for non-boosted type. This means that, *all other things being equal* (and they aren't always) a Hybrid's ranged attacks will deal ~same dps as Ranged attacks from a toon in the Melee dps role, etc.

Physical vs. non-physical also doesn't matter when focusing on the Roles, as there's both Physical and Non-physical types for melee and ranged powers out there.

xoriandruid · September 2016

flowcyto said:
Ego Form boosts all Paranormal dmg, and to a lesser extent all Physical dmg (prob cause the set has TK Maelstrom, but this allows some build cross-over). ID Mastery boosts Paranormal melee dmg (basically just TK blades) by an even larger amount then Ego Form, but boosts all other (ranged) Paranormal dmg by an amount lower than Ego Form. They both also reduce the cost of Mentalist powers, and both give some general dmgRes, though ID Mastery's is higher, but Ego Form also gives extra dmgRes vs. inc Ego dmg in particular.

Basically, Ego Form is the more generalist passive of the two, while ID Mastery is more niche, but has more power w/in that niche.

Going for a dps role will only boost melee or ranged by ~25%, though it also doesn't offer a dmg penalty for non-boosted type. This means that, *all other things being equal* (and they aren't always) a Hybrid's ranged attacks will deal ~same dps as Ranged attacks from a toon in the Melee dps role, etc.

Physical vs. non-physical also doesn't matter when focusing on the Roles, as there's both Physical and Non-physical types for melee and ranged powers out there.

So what your saying is it wont make a difference if I go to ranged or melee form other then some of the other benefits? I thought ranged or melee roles had more then hybrid and the difference was hybrid offered more healing.

flowcyto · September 2016

Well, you can just compare the detailed tooltips on them in-game and see the nuances for urself

Either DPS role boosts their specialized type (melee or ranged) by ~25% (and this is a total dmg boost to that type), and allows ur 3 SS's to boost *all* of ur damage (buy a large amount) and reduce ur threat (by a smaller amount). The Hybrid role offers no melee_ranged 25% total boost, and doesn't lower threat, but still allows ur 3 SS's to boost all dmg (by a large mount) and bonus healing (by a smaller amount).

There's other details, like the DPS roles have a CC penalty and get less energy when blocking, but can get more energy from end building, and the stronger SS scalar for the DPS roles is the PSS, while the 2 SSS's bonuses scale up better in Hybrid role. But the main gist is: if ur using mostly ranged attacks, then the Ranged DPS role = more dps but less healing vs. Hybrid. Similar thing w/ melee builds and the Melee DPS role vs. Hybrid.

If ur using a melee/ranged mix build, then its up to you what to prioritize as a dps: more healing (Hybrid), stronger melee attacks (melee/Brawler role), or stronger ranged attacks (ranged/Avenger role).

xoriandruid · September 2016

I see, didnt know about the cc and it doesnt list everything I did read the describtions thats not the issue here, the issue is it doesnt exactly say how much more damage or less ill be doing in hybrid vs using one of the more specialized roles this does help clear some of it it up some so thank you.

Which is the best form for a Telekinetik Character?

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