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bluegrassbeast
Posts: 1,906 Arc User
https://youtu.be/QKEzMz6FcXsThere are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Look at how few are based around crafting or exploring. as opposed to
go to strange lands, meet exotic people, kill things and take their stuff.
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Cosmic threats that no single hero can tackle alone is exactly the reason superhero teams like the justice league and the avengers even exist. It is a staple of the genre.
If this isn't what you're implying as "becoming a serious problem with the game." I'm not sure what is..
nerfs perhaps...but even with all the nerfs all the old content is just as challenging as it ever was... and by that I mean there is very little to no challenge at all.
Epic Stronghold
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I have an idea what you are getting at, BB, but I don't just want to presume. For us to really understand what the "serious problem" is that you are alluding to, you're gonna have to narrow it down before folks misunderstand your point........... although it looks like it may be too late for that
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
The Q realm seems like an odd choice as well. I thought just being near Q energy drove people insane or some such thing? Adding this over any of the previous abandoned stories is sad. Look at how many people love the APs and Comic Series or wish the nem system had an update. New content doesn't have that presentation, it's all about the loot grind.
I think a bigger problem with the game is sacrificing everything for the sake of monitization. OnSlaught was marred by that. Now we have a whole lot more grind which looks like an effort to push people into using the lockbox gear more.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Low and behind x men shooting and pounding on a boss, also this is from wolverine and the x men which is a good cartoon series worth checking out.
Cyclopse in an epic fight solo and looses.
I have no idea where you get your info but super heroes get their butts kicked allot. Especially the x men.
And the game isnt over grind, it may seem that way because people sit and only do alerts. Anyways this is an mmorpg if you want a super casual fest there are very few. Rpgs are meant to last and meant to have grinds.
Now, I agree that we've got too much invasions and qliphocrap, but that's not a new thing; CO has always had way too high a ratio of mooks to named foes. There should be way more supervillains in CO, and a lot less minions, aliens, demons, etc.
Epic Stronghold
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The closest CO has come to doing it right is in the VB Apocalypse and in some of the APs/CS. And those had the disadvantage of being grindable content that lost its genre impact on replay. But others disagree, and still others will not care as long as they find it matches their definition of fun.
Going beyond my tastes (and looking at the player base, I don't think my tastes are anything remotely in the majority) the comics genre is a lot of different things for different people. Do you go for Silver Age silliness? Bronze/modern age mix of grit and fun and character driven stories? Anime, becuse that's what all the kids like, and sod the old farts? Iron age with pouches and gritted teeth? WoD influenced Dark urban fantasy, because demons committing atrocities are a more attractive power fantasy to kids these days, and screw do-gooding losers in tights? Mystery Men style lowest common denominator parody? 40K's Briish influenced mix of grit and parody? Champs PnP is rooted in George MacDonald's love of bronze age Marvel, but will that sell to a modern audience? Or do you provide elements for all of them, and leave the audience to decide thematic issues for themselves, even if that means my oh-serious-hero has to run alerts with Sir Drops-His Pants-a-Lot, and Dark Viscerator?
Or do you really not care about genre emulation and are pointing at something else entirely, as if a few new boss mechanics and more difficult to achieve high end rewards are hurting immersion and/or fun? I think I can see an argument that can be made here, but I also think you need to separate the "leet player" aspect from the fun. It's not the only path. Though if you held a blaster to my head and asked me if things are becoming too grind-y and overpriced, I'd probably say yes by a factor of 50% or so. Grind is a compromise we accept when new content is difficult and time-consuming to make. It would be useful if we had numbers in lieu of general complaints.
Your link is an interesting think piece, and I thank you for sharing it, but I don't think the tonal restrictions it advocates would necessariy be a good fit here. Or in MMOs in general - even on games with servers that enforce RP, attempts to limit tone are often labellled snobbery. And I also have trouble with the intimation that the devs are getting this wrong only now. Either this has been bungled since launch (and was especially bad at launch and got better over the course of development), or they're not missing the mark at all. But llke zenith intimated, while the video is very good, to the point where I'd probably sit down and show it to any design team at the beginning of a project, I think you need to make a case that the team's recent efforts have strayed from the ideal, or it's missing the mark even more wildly recently.
(This was mostly written before most of the responses to the initial post, I'll adjust accordingly or delete it if it's irrelevant to what was intended. My concerns and sub-interests don't particularly match the player base.)
Personally I feel like this game does the Super Hero fantasy very well. I feel strong, I feel cool, I feel fast, and lately I feel like I'm being dispatched to take care of threats that only a Super Hero could take care of. Only thing we're missing is more directly saving people on more occasions.
^ this right here is why a lot of people are playing this game, because it's the "everything bagel" of super hero themes... heck I think we may have created a few new genres here and actually pulled in a few genres that were not super hero genres to begin with. It's almost like we're a.... Super Genre n_n. Also don't forget pink hair anime girl, she's in that alert too! And there's probably a furry in there.
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First you have the run up to it. After fighting their way through the invasion, the players come across the invader's best mages, and they're of a all things doing a strange ritual, rather than causing havok on the front lines. What this does is cement the oncoming threat as something very powerful. Every comic book villain will talk like whatever they are doing will be the end of everything, but having a summoning ritual reinforces the psychological strength of the monster by the mook's actions.
So, the team beats the mages, and the Harbinger makes it's entrance. In this case, it's introduced by a short cut scene, followed by UNTIL showing up and explaining the mechanics. It's perfect. It says 1: this boss is a badass and 2: this is what the noob who is doing this for the first time should be doing.
Then, there's the sound. The Harbinger has its own fight music. I know a few other bosses is the game use the same music, but frankly, it's the Harbinger fight music.
There is also the sound the boss itself makes. The Harbinger makes a huge roar than drowns out whatever else is making noise within a mile radius.
There's the environment. It's at the shoreline of Millennium City. The location implies that if the heroes fail, MC gets flattened, putting some emotional stakes to the fight. You have UNTIL providing a sky carrier and the Lemurians still sending fighters to help their respective sides, implying a lot of sentient beings that actually give a crap about the outcome of the fight.
Compare that to the three cosmics:
In terms of lead-up, Kigatillik is actually summoned by Rakshasha, and the single player quests do have you squaring off against his servants. Also, you've got a mountain that looks like a monster that he's got a temple on. So, Kiga does have a bit of lead-up to imply he's a bad-****. Qwyjibo does has a large statue carved out of the side of a mountain, but that's it. Teliosaurus has nothing.
There is no music for any of them. Kigatillik again is the only one who makes any real sound close to 'cosmic boss' threat with his 'I'll destroy the world' rants, but those are drowned out by the attacks of 40 heroes. I think the other two are using the same roars as the mooks make.
In terms of the environment, all three bosses are in the middle of nowhere. The stakes are stupid low. Qwyjibo and Teliosaurus are on their little island and aren't really a threat to any civilians. Really, the heroes could just leave them be. Maybe they'd have to punch Telios himself, but the dinosaur would have to be tamed to be an asset for evil, and it can't be. So, the heroes are beating them up just because they are there. Kigatillik however does seem to imply something worse, but he's going to what, make the frozen tundra a little colder and rule over the remote wilderness? No one cares. UNTIL cares so little they only got one lieutenant doing admin work for all three.
As for the mechanics of it, well, the level of coordination is kind of wrecking it too. Aggro management, while an MMO staple, *ruins* the fantasy. Fantasy wise, the boss is supposed to be a thinking lifeform. However, reality is that its "AI" will be a simple program. That's a technical limitation. What an 'artist' would do is hide the limitation by making it irrelevant.
When you make the players worry about aggro, you do the opposite. You force them to acknowledge the existence of the program which governs the behavior of the boss. They then have to control the behavior of that program by managing an arbitrary 'threat' number. Instead of fighting a monster, the players are doing the 2016 equivalent of the "Pac-man pattern".
Epic Stronghold
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Also these cosmics have been in the game for years... now this is suddenly an issue? Thing is, we don't have aggro meters, so aggro management falls to "wait a few seconds at the start of the fight until that big guy has the thing's attention, and occasionally use a power that makes it not notice you". That's not really all that jarring to the immersion.
Tanks like to feel useful, and this is a trinity game, so tanking is gonna be a thing. If you have a good idea for how to make tanks feel useful without relying on aggro then spit it out! No I'm serious, I've suggested no-aggro encounters many times over the years, the problem is I can immediately figure out how to do the encounter without a tank which means nobody would ever want a tank there. It's kind of an issue in a genre that so completely supports the idea of tanks ( there are many Super Heroes who fit the role ). And yet so many people hate that Rampage and think it sucks and needs a complete overhaul to be playable. I agree, it 'looks' great.. it just doesn't play so great. Also honestly I think the sound design could use a lot of work... you ever play that rampage with music off?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
To be fair though, Monster Island isn't about saving civilians. The theme there is that's its a jungle with huge threats roaming around seeking out challengers. My cop-out is that I'm not an artist. Some suggestions though: They could have large-area, small damage AoEs that force the squishies to go to a cover point while the tanks just shrug it off and pound away. They could make the boss damageable by a maguffin which damages the player holding/using it. They could make the boss take greater damage from the front. They could give the boss some kind of counter-attack mechanic. My real suggestion though is have scaled randomness somewhere between Gravitar's completely random attacks and Teliosaur's utter predictability. The boss should *probably* attack the tanks but *occasionally* pick a random target (but not get to wipe out the entire party if it launches one attack in the wrong direction). Well, sure the mechanics suck. The point was that the art is good though. (With the music on).
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
As far as emulating the super hero genre in Champions, it can be done. However, the major issue with current MMO thinking is they are following the WoW model almost to the letter. Like it or not, Champions is still, in essence, a WoW clone. Some of the pieces fit differently but yea. An as a result of that model, it also comes down to the fact there is little deviation from the norm in the grand scheme of things.
A super hero type feel and setting can be emulated quite well in an MMO. In fact, I am almost positive the experience can be nearly perfectly replicated. The problem is that convincing investors and bean counters from going outside what is considered the safe approach. And that is following what WoW and all the other MMOs before and after it do. Risk is... risky and most investors don't want to take risks these days and instead work with sure fire, and that has ended up costing them now to because they see sure fire isn't working like they thought it would and the end result is well investors won't invest.
I am sure, in some future, a super hero game that emulates the ideal of the super hero can be made, even as an MMO. The finding crime, clue solving, investigation, or saving people from burning buildings and such is all things that can be done. But right now, it isn't likely to happen as the current situation is with the market, and investors are only willing to go after tried and true instead of spreading outside of the box. So I wouldn't expect something new or different for a while.
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The game sets Dr. Destroyer up as the main antagonist then abandons him....
I also wish there were more prominent tights wearing villain groups and less military ones.
*shrug*
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Also, there are a bunch of Until troops on the island. They have interests in the area they need to keep an eye on. If they just cut and run then guess what... all the super villain forces on the island claim the island. Now, they have access to a giant flaming gorilla, and a giant poison-spike shooting acid spewing T-rex, and no good guys around to keep them from utilizing these assets - if you're wondering how that effects anyone not on the island, keep in mind that many of the evil forces on the island have the ability to air lift very large things to other locations, and potentially have the ability to clone stuff too. "Just leave" isn't a viable option.
In all your suggestions I can already see all the problems that every one of my suggestions had. I was going to go through point-by-point and list them, but that seems like a bit of a tangent ( anyone who cares, PM me lol ).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm fine with the Qliphothic Realm seeing new use again, it has been more than a few years now, after all.
In the long run I agree we really should have more super villains and super villain groups and there are tons of sourcebooks to draw from, often I feel the last time we got a real infusion of super villains was when the special alerts came along and we got the not so amazing GRAB alert with it's knock-happy Merc minions using knock attacks that still don't apply knock resistance to players.
I think the best implementation of a super-villain encounter in the game so far is still Viperia in the Serpent Lantern adventure pack, her encounter presents her with a nice mini cut-scene and the mechanics of the fight drive home the idea that she's an actual semi-divine being who no one player can defeat, so instead she must be temporarily dispelled from the area so the heroes can get on with the real job at the moment; saving the world. She even looks like she was drawn in the Coils of the Serpent source-book she was introduced in. [Thanks again, Scott, we all owe you so much!]
Something written by people whose primary interest is in the technicalities of combat, I suspect.
- More quiliasdjadsdgjppaphothic edgelord stuff
- More hardcore raid team-based content made by cannibalizing existing content currently accessible to everyone
- More price hikes because casuals are still getting gear and we can't have that
Hopefully I'm wrong, and instead, it'll be mostly...
- More power adjustments and fixes
- More human-themed costume pieces
- More story content
- A complete reevaluation of the current SCR/GCR pricing disaster with a 50%-75% reduction on gear costs
- Copies of group content available with several difficulties (Easy, Normal, Hard) instead of just one (Hard)
- More love for the Nemesis system
- Updates to older parts of the game most people avoid to make them relevant but not out of reach for most.
- More improvements to the silver player aspects (old ATs, inclusion in Onslaught, power tinting, etc)
...etc.
- More Supernatural / bleed powers and powers that get bleed shoehorned in.
- More premium ATs themed around / have powers shoved in from the supernatural sets.
- More premium ATs nearly identical to already existing premium ATs.
- More group content in a game without the population to support it well.
- Telepathy nerfs.
At this point, I think it'll be a miracle if we see love to other sets that keep getting talked about. It would also be super if that whole thing about making the Space Station a hub for more cool stuff actually happened. Or if OnSlaught was ever as much fun as piloting the Mega D at the end of Resistance. Or if the devs made content that attracted new players and found ways to keep them around BEFORE focusing on group content.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
The power changes have been mostly positive though, so there's that.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Anyway, not trying to be negative, but sprinkling in some 1-player do-it-yourself stuff would be really nice for those of us who like playing solo (or who don't want to stand around waiting for other people for most of our playing time).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ebon Ruin's pet thing turned out to be a bad idea, but only because pet AI is dumb.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.