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Captain America is [SPOILER]

moxiedangermoxiedanger Posts: 189 Arc User
It's a great day for popping popcorn and watching Nick Spencer's Twitter mentions.

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    hehe, the ending of Civil war made me really wonder. :)
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  • moxiedangermoxiedanger Posts: 189 Arc User

    hehe, the ending of Civil war made me really wonder. :)

    Well, the one doesn't have anything to do with the other.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    Honestly, I checked out of the comic when Time Bullets became a thing. So nothing that happens in those pages will affect my reading at all. Just glad the movies are a separate continuity.
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  • moxiedangermoxiedanger Posts: 189 Arc User
    jonsills said:

    Honestly, I checked out of the comic when Time Bullets became a thing. So nothing that happens in those pages will affect my reading at all. Just glad the movies are a separate continuity.

    Different writer, different editors, et cetera. If I checked out of a book every time something silly happened, I'd miss a lot of great stories later.
  • tigerofcachticetigerofcachtice Posts: 551 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Hi guys, I was just reading this all new, all different (TM) Steve Rogers: Captain America Issue Number 1. Some notes:

    1. Yeah, it's a cheap marketing ploy, likely to leech off of the recent film's popularity, though they are unrelated

    2. But also, even in-story, it's suggested this is some ploy, an undercover or even body-swap plot

    Thus, please consider taking it with some salt (the quantities of which will vary greatly from person to person). It is pretty clear IMHO this is a case of THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN like how Cap became Nomad/a werewolf/power-armoured/dead/old which they will reverse in about a year's time. In case you are wondering why, spoilers (pls highlight the below to read):

    The comic opens and frequently returns to flashbacks back to 1920s New York, where a certain Sarah Rogers is being aided by a seemingly kind Hydra recruiter. There's a little boy there, presumed to be young Steve.

    It never indicated that either she or he joined. I would not be surprised if it'll show that he rejected Hydra, even at a young age.

    Scenes later, a group of B-list side characters, like Jack Flag and American Spirit and even Rick Jones, who actually joked about how Cap was a werewolf/power-armoured in the past, lampshading the fact that silly things happen to Cap ALL THE TIME.

    On that note, the comic actually described how the last silly thing that happened to Cap was him suddenly aging due to problems with the super soldier serum, but was reverted thanks to a magical girl who's actually a Cosmic Cube.

    (Yes, there's a magical girl who's a Cosmic Cube. I felt pretty much all bets were off once I read that.)

    Then came the big betrayal, but please note what happens, to whom.

    The heroes have been tracking down a scientist who can find magical Cosmic Cube girl, kidnapped by Baron Zemo. Cap, Jack Flag and American Spirit FLEW in on these hover discs that follow them around, in and out of combat.

    (They actually look a lot like CO's hover disc travel power, which is cool.)

    Baron Zemo at the time was talking about how he and Red Skull were basically fighting each other for control of Hydra.

    Baron Zemo takes off on a jet, but Cap jumped on it just in time, beat up the hull to get in. Jack Flag notices this and FLEW on his smart hover disc to help. They knock out Zemo, BUT THEN, SUDDENLY...

    Cap threw Jack Flag off the jet, turned around to the scientist, saying, "Hail Hydra."

    Please note, the guy Cap threw out of a plane has a FLYING SMART HOVER DISC THAT FOLLOWS HIM.

    Thus, I believe this whole thing is a ruse, a setup up for multiple WHAT A TWEEST!s. I'm thinking the scientist kidnapped by Baron Zemo is, in fact, a Hydra agent that's actually working for the Red Skull, or some such. Cap is just trying to win his confidence; he's had so many years fighting Hydra he can impersonate them really well.

    (Alternatively, there's some Cosmic Cube body-swap thing, or it's really Cap's evil brother posing as him, 'cos anything goes.)


    TL;DR - many signs suggest this is just a gimmick, so much so the writer AND even the characters realise it. Now, a lot of the above points are speculation, but it really looks like a breadcrumb trail of plot devices stringed together.
    jonsills said:

    Honestly, I checked out of the comic when Time Bullets became a thing.

    Mwahahahaha, well put. "Time Bullets", tee hee. I still have those issues in my collection.

    -----

    None you are wrong to feel the way you do about this. Not only do you have the right, I too agree with your general feelings.

    Just don't let it get to you. There's so much Wink Wink Nudge Nudge in this comic it's hilarious to me. And the art is great! The artist is this guy Jesus Saiz with very creative colouring decisions to create this dynamic lighting. It surpasses the story.

    But yeah, expect all this THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN to become the same again by 12 months' time.
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited May 2016


    Grant Ward did it 1st.
    And then he went full Elder God.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Cap goes undercover. How utterly boring. In the months that will have Batman punch Dr Manhattan in his big blue nuts I thought is this how Marvel counters that?
    As the biggest Marvel fan girl in CO Nepht is disappoint -_-"


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  • tigerofcachticetigerofcachtice Posts: 551 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Nepht raises a surprisingly great point that probably explains this betrayer Cap gimmick best.

    This isn't meant as a gut punch to the fans. This is meant as a gut punch to DC Comics.

    DC Comics just got rebooted (again) with DC Rebirth, the huge revelation being, spoiler, pls highlight the below to read:

    Last time DC Comics was rebooted, it was implied the cause was The Flash, who tried to alter history to save his mother, who was murdered when he was young. That caused ripples in time that changed more than he intended.

    In short, the last DC reboot (i.e. the New 52) was an accident...or so we were lead to believe. There was a plan.

    It was meticulously put together, like by a watchmaker, by DR. MANHATTAN AT THE END OF WATCHMEN. THIS was what Dr. Manhattan left Earth to do after telling Ozymandias, "Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

    (Dr. Manhattan, in his Before Watchmen prequel mini-series, demonstrated not only could he manipulate matter or space, but time as well. He actually traveled back to his past to ensure the accident that killed/created him. Because quantum.)


    In short, considering the mastermind behind all this, it is a plot twist 30 YEARS IN THE MAKING!

    This is huge! A cult favourite cast/universe embracing mainstream DC! Finally, after all the disappointments of the New 52, of Snyder's films, THIS would be what brings DC back, baby! This was the huge story DC wants heard around the world!

    Then Cap drowned all that DC coverage out by softly saying just 2 words, spoiler, pls highlight to read: "Hail Hydra."

    -----

    This was a case of interference marketing. Right before a competitor releases a new product, you drown it out with bigger, better, flashier headlines, to draw some/most/all of the attention away. Cap was all I saw on mainstream news yesterday.

    This was not the first time Marvel did this to DC, but usually it was in the films. Like when Batman v Superman had bad reviews, Marvel flooded the Internet/TV with new trailers for Captain America: Civil War. That's just the most recent example.

    Not saying Marvel was right to do this. But considering this is the news people are talking about...they pulled it off.

    EDIT - these are the thing I've observed, having read Nepht's just point. It does NOT mean I think the twist makes for a good story, or that I favour Marvel or DC over the other, but IMHO it explains what's going on.
    Post edited by tigerofcachtice on
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Also, it's Cap, he's not evil.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited May 2016

    snip

    All this kinda gets me down as not that long ago I would spam off topic with bi weekly threads about Batman was stupid. The past year with BatGordon ( Jim Gordon Batman was oddly good ) and now this DC seems to actually be getting their crap together.

    What has Marvel done...another arc where Dr Doom saves the Marvel Universe ( again ), Gwenpool, a failed attempt at replacing the X-Men with the Inhumans ( fans went f*&^ off so the Inhumans movie is canned and Agents of Shield is on its death bed ) , Gay Ice Man ( I am part of CO's LGBT community and even I think this is stupid ) and now we have undercover Steve. Marvel's comics are just a pile of arse these days :V

    Marvel seems more interested in movies than comics these days. DC/WB also make comic book movies that rake in-between $600m and $1 billion these days also but they somehow manage to get out good comics and games* as well ( PC ports of those games kinda suck though U_U" )

    Then DC has TV stuff like Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and even Gotham the worst of the TV stuff is half decent due to ANGER GORDON!

    Agent Carter canned, Agents of Shield on the verge of getting canned the only decent TV show Marvel has put out is Daredevil ( I would say Daredevil is the best super hero TV show of recent years BTW ).

    Yes fair play to Marvel they make the best comic book movies but DC isnt too far behind them on this front and on the whole DC is putting out the DCU to people in more formats in an overall higher quality.



    *lets not mention that the best Marvel games are made by a company owned by Warner Brothers.
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  • tigerofcachticetigerofcachtice Posts: 551 Arc User
    Excellent, because again, all these seemingly peripheral points relate back to this issue, which is this ongoing shift where Marvel at least doesn't want to make comics for the sake of comics. Instead, they make comics to make:

    1. Headlines - to shock people into noticing their comics, which they might buy for shock value

    2. Movies or TV Shows - the prime example is Mark Millar, who not only wrote the original Civil War, Kickass, Kingsman: the Secret Service, which were all adapted to films. When he returned to comics proper, he wrote an arc for the Wolverine series called Old Man Logan...which is now the basis for the 3rd Wolverine film.

    And it seems this plot twist with Cap definitely seems to be clearly making Headlines. Perhaps with its cloak & dagger spy thriller angle, it hopes to become a movie, because the MCU continues to defy expectations IMHO.
    nepht said:

    Gay Ice Man

    Yeah...on that note, that same writer, Brian Michael Bendis, is now writing Civil War II, this year's big Marvel event.
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited May 2016
    It's silly, but it will all turn to be a hoax.

    It's written precisely to get people to pick this issue.


    I'm more interested with DC Rebirth atm, though, so...


    Bendis is writer I learned to dislike. I'm giving this year Marvel event a try, but I'm on alert for stupid ideas. Bendis can write nice scenes and dialogues, but he's literally unable to respect the continuity. Always was that way. He's also too random and too much in love with his ideas.​​
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    The Inhumans movie wasn't "canned" - it was rescheduled. Seriously, have you looked at the MCU release schedule for the next couple of years? It's insane! Better to stretch things out just a little more, methinks, than risk burning out your audience all at once. (Theaters are expensive, yo.)
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited May 2016
    DCU started soo "well" with BvS that it already changed producers and coordinators for next movies.

    Which may be, actually, quite needed. Seems like BvS not quite meeting WB expectations may prompt them to keeping lunatics like Snyder in check.
    Here's me hoping to no more see him unrestrained. It's bad enough that after "masterpieces" like Sucker Punch or borderline racist and filled with cultural approximation drivels like both "300" (hmm, which is actually quite fitting, he's like no1 Miller's fan so he's following his idol, after all...) movies he got to work on DCU.

    But for MCU I care only about GOTG2 and Cap Marvel, so... I don't care who's putting more movies as long as they aren't Snyder's trademark work to suffer through.

    Also, DC Rebirth and its ties to Flashpoint already caused Moore going upset because how they dare to touch his writing!!!

    Nothing's as hilarious as a writer with special snowflake starlet syndrome who forgets that he's just a commissioned pen working with not his own IP.

    Pretty please, someone finally give this kind of treatment to Bendis...​​
    Post edited by meedacthunist on
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    jonsills said:

    The Inhumans movie wasn't "canned" - it was rescheduled. Seriously, have you looked at the MCU release schedule for the next couple of years? It's insane! Better to stretch things out just a little more, methinks, than risk burning out your audience all at once. (Theaters are expensive, yo.)

    I know they said its been put back. But lets be honest its been "put back" because Marvel fans didn't like how The Inhumans were being shoved in their faces. Kinda like how Agents of Shield hasn't been "canned" yet but it might as well been as next season its in a crappy time slot. Seriously no ones gives a f*&^% about Quake.

    Its just the same as what Capcom does with Darkstalkers they be like "NO THE SERIES ISNT DEAD we just not dong anything with it anytime soon, but we will but not soon....honest."

    Hey maybe Capcom and Marvel can team up again and do Inhumans Vs Darkstalkers : Fate of Axed heroes :P
    Post edited by nepht on
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    You know I realized something today that suddenly made the timing of the TMNT and GB make sense.... neither property is owned by Marvel/Disney or DC. TMNT is actually being done by Nickelodeon. GB is Universal IIRC.
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited May 2016
    But Crystal looks kickass in new Inhumans books.

    And I never really liked this character before. Or disliked. Or cared at all.

    So at least one ok thing came out of it.


    I'm still salty at Marvel for making Greg Land an interior artists to one of the two X-Men ongoings. Nothing beats having to drop the book because of an artists. The one book with Magneto inside... >_>​​
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Land isn't THAT bad.... He draws better than McFarlane and Liefeld :p
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User

    Land isn't THAT bad.... He draws better than McFarlane and Liefeld :p

    Liefeld did get the last laugh on all his haters though. I mostly hate Deadpool but you cant ignore the fact he has replaced Wolverine as the most bankable X-Men character.
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    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User

    Land isn't THAT bad.... He draws better than McFarlane and Liefeld :p

    Not exactly a high bar, mon ami. :lol:
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  • tigerofcachticetigerofcachtice Posts: 551 Arc User
    Hi guys, quick replies.

    Re: Inhumans

    To be clear, the Inhumans film was scheduled, then pushed back, THEN taken off the schedule entirely...for now.

    "Movie industry experts" have taken that to mean it's effectively been cancelled quietly. Trying to save face, etc.

    However, other/those very same "experts" have also mentioned Marvel really wants to build up its Inhumans as an alternative to the X-Men, because Fox owns their movie rights. Writer Chris Claremont (for those of us that remember the X-Men's run in the '90s outright stated the "X-Department" aren't to create more characters, because they just end up being film property for Fox. If anything that suggests more eagerness to put forth their own Inhuman films.

    Meanwhile, in Marvel Comics currently, I kinda feel like they're using the Inhumans for X-Men-esque storylines, like they're a substitute for them. The new Marvel Civil War II, for example, introduces a teenager who manifests new powers like a mutant, no wait, X-Men, nono, not that, like Layla Miller from X-Factor oh dammit, I meant like an Inhuman.

    Joking aside, it seems like they want to build up the Inhumans a bit more, let it cook, let fans warm up to them some more. And to be fair, with this new arrangement Marvel has with Sony Pictures and Spiderman films sharing a universe with them, they really do have a lot more on their plate.

    In other words, the skeptics have their reasoning about the Inhumans film being cancelled, but many of them pointed out Spiderman would NEVER be in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, again for good reason. My point is MCU continues to surprise us, never say never with them.

    You know I realized something today that suddenly made the timing of the TMNT and GB make sense.... neither property is owned by Marvel/Disney or DC. TMNT is actually being done by Nickelodeon. GB is Universal IIRC.


    This is very astute and very relevant. Were you aware Batman v Superman rescheduled to avoid clashing with Civil War? Marvel basically "reserved" early May for their big film releases, as they thought it a prime time, right before the summer blockbuster season. Other films are giving them a wide berth, as not to compete head-to-head with them.

    But yeah, notice Marvel is owned now by Disney, which also owns Star Wars. They're carefully avoiding each other on the film schedules, as to avoid stepping on each other's toes. Next few years, this is what the calendar kinda looks like.

    May: a big Marvel film, like a new Avengers

    December: a new Star Wars film, like Rogue One or Episode VIII

    It's a strange, strange dance right now.
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited May 2016
    Land isn't THAT bad.... He draws better than McFarlane and Liefeld :p

    I'm not an academic-senior-art-school-style-of nazi. I can cut some slack to anyone as long as they're drawing their things on their own. Not like comic books are a realistic art and they're produced on a tight schedule, so sometimes things end rushed at the expense of quality.
    Land is, technically, a better artist who did prove some skills back when he was penciling for DC and Crossgen's Sojourn character concepts, but then he threw it all through the window to just trace as much as he can.
    That's the issue here.

    Felt a bad taste in my mouth supporting it by buying the book.​​
    Post edited by meedacthunist on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Yeah, marketing is always gonna try to get the best time they can.
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    Regarding the Inhumans in Agents of SHIELD, and a possible MCU movie featuring them, there is another factor at work. You might have read that late last year, Marvel Studios prez Kevin Feige ceased reporting to Marvel Entertainment CEO Ike Perlmutter. Reportedly, Feige often conflicted with the notoriously stingy Perlmutter. However, Perlmutter retains control of Marvel's television properties, so would have to be cooperated with on any use of those properties in the movie division. The Inhumans having become such a prominent element of AoS, that weighs against their chances of making it to the big screen. I don't think it's a coincidence that the announcement of an Inhumans movie being pushed back, then taken off the MCU schedule, post-dates that of Feige's new status.
  • eiledoneiledon Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Regarding the Inhumans in Agents of SHIELD, and a possible MCU movie featuring them, there is another factor at work. You might have read that late last year, Marvel Studios prez Kevin Feige ceased reporting to Marvel Entertainment CEO Ike Perlmutter. Reportedly, Feige often conflicted with the notoriously stingy Perlmutter. However, Perlmutter retains control of Marvel's television properties, so would have to be cooperated with on any use of those properties in the movie division. The Inhumans having become such a prominent element of AoS, that weighs against their chances of making it to the big screen. I don't think it's a coincidence that the announcement of an Inhumans movie being pushed back, then taken off the MCU schedule, post-dates that of Feige's new status.

    There may also still be issues of character 'ownership' that are being dealt with behind the scenes. Depending on the agreement with Fox regarding Fantastic 4 - Crystal, Medusa & Gorgon all appeared individually in Fantastic 4 comic iin the mid 60s and then the Inhumans Royal Family/Black Bolt et al) were introduced shortly in the same series. Attilan and the concept of the Inhumans as enhanced humans was mentioned a lot earlier (1941 in a back up story in Captain America ) - this could explain why we get Inhumans on TV but none of the most famous characters from their history aside from them saving those for a possible movie.​​
  • tigerofcachticetigerofcachtice Posts: 551 Arc User
    The 2nd issue of Captain America: Steve Rogers is out, with the relevant revelation.

    Previously, the word was shocked at him saying "Hail Hydra" and I wrote the following:

    (Alternatively, there's some Cosmic Cube body-swap thing, or it's really Cap's evil brother posing as him, 'cos anything goes.)

    But yeah, expect all this THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN to become the same again by 12 months' time.

    It turns out, Cap becoming Hydra was really a Cosmic Cube thing. Previously, we found out Steve Rogers, who had become an old man again after his supersoldier serum expired, was changed back to his younger, peak of human perfection self by a Cosmic Cube who was a little girl, because that's just how Marvel Comics goes these days.

    That Cosmic Cube Magical Girl also implanted false memories into Cap when she restored him. The reason - she's under the influence of the Red Skull. She's not malicious, in fact it's suggested she genuinely likes Cap, but she honestly believes in Red Skull's vision of a world united by Hydra (because she's an impressionable child).

    It'll probably take less than 12 months for everything to return to normal now.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Heh, sounds legit. :p
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  • reiwulfreiwulf Posts: 442 Arc User
    ah, I had figured it had something to do with the cosmic cube. I guess all the shitstorm was in vain? how shocking...
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    I expected it to be fake in some way. :p
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  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    Why are they vilifying Captain America? The contract from the movie made it out like the UN was wanting to create a collective empire and using the Avengers as enforcers...of coarse Cap. would protest that! Hydra conspiracy??

    ^darn Marvel Movie UN


    ...i havent read a comic book since the comic/D20 shop closed down near me...so i have no clue whats going on in the comics. Last Captain America comic i seen was Marvel VS DC, Captain America fought Batman.


    Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    batman and cap were chosen by the literal embodiments of the DC and Marvel universes for that fight, and yeah they spent the entire time talking about how evenly matched they where...you know, despite cap being all hopped up on super solider drugs and bats just being a crazy guy in a bat suit.



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