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The Future of the Mentalist Framework: My Thoughts

ninjapiffninjapiff Posts: 282 Arc User
As it is, the Mentalist Framework has overall been getting less and less... well, in a word, "good". With Crowd Control getting weaker and weaker, and recent nerfs to things like the Master of the Mind miniset and various hold powers, Mentalists are taking blow after blow. The problem is a relatively common one for many games (for MMOs, PnP RPGs, Single-Player games, etc.) and isn't always solved easily; how do you make a certain playstyle that would REALISTICALLY be unbeatable god-tier be fair and balanced?

Crowd Control with no restrictions = Getting knocked prone indefinitely while things wail on you. You can't get back up, because before you do you get knocked back down again (Sorry Chumbawamba, not this time). That's CC at its best if you're using it, and its worst if you're on the controlled side. This is why it's necessary to "nerf" Crowd Control; I say "nerf" with quotations marks because anything less than total prone-lock is kinda a "nerf" to what "true crowd control" would be.

But the Mentalist Framework isn't just CC, and shouldn't just be CC. As we stand now, the Mentalist Framework is split into two Powersets: Telepathy and Telekinesis. I feel like this is sort of a mistake, especially in the case of Telepathy. By naming the powerset "Telepathy", you invite an ENORMOUS amount of possible powers and concepts that could fit that bill. "Telepathy", itself, if way too broad a category and should be broken up if we ever really want to see more Mentalist Powers. Here are some "new" Mentalist powersets that could replace Telepathy and further narrow down the various jumble of powers that the Framework currently holds:
  • Illusion: A handful of powers summon "entities" that help attack your foe, while others debuff your targets and cause DoTs. Powers like Summon Nightmare and Collective Will fit as powers that summon illusory enemies, while powers like those of the Master of the Mind Miniset could fall within the debuffing/DoT aspect of "Illusion".
  • Manipulator: Taking the name from the hallmark Form, the Manipulator Powerset would consist of most of the CC powers we know and love/hate from the Telepathy Framework. Holds, Incapacitates, and Stuns would fall into this category, as well as possibly including various debuffs.
  • Mental Empowering: Not the best name, but until I think of a better one that's what I'll call it. This would mostly include the healing/shielding powers of the Telepathy Powerset, as well as possible buffing powers that may or may not exist in the future (a girl can dream, can't he?).
There could be other subsets of the Mentalist Framework that aren't coming to me right now, but I hope my point gets across at least. The entire Framework could use some cleaning up, and really should be.
It makes sense, if you don't think about it.
__________________________________________________
Most often Slice N Dice@zap-the-eradicator in-game.

Comments

  • beerbanebeerbane Posts: 197 Arc User
    I like these thoughts - particularly the idea of adding some unique buffs/debuffs into the framework via mental entities and empowerment. Anything to help this set would be appreciated.

    I'm also a fan of revising CC for CO in general (love CC classes in other games and CO has some graphically pretty holds that I would like to actually use). I understand that strong holds and freeform builds with unlimited DPS don't necessarily mix, but maybe a simple change to casting mechanics would help resolve this:

    Holds - should always be a maintain but as a trade off should be much stronger. In fact, a character maintaining a hold should be allowed to constantly refresh the hold strength of their hold while it is being cast (so that teammates don't immediately break the hold when attacking). This would allow DPS on a team to attack the incapacitated target(s), while the character casting the hold is effectively occupied while 'locking down' the target(s). By making it a dedicated, effective maintain, you don't have to worry about freeform tank-mages trapping and obliterating everything all by themselves. This change might even facilitate 'teamwork' >:)

    Snares/Roots - should be click or short charge, degrading in effectiveness as the target(s) takes damage but also having a minimum threshold for some meaningful impact. Alternatively, add a lingering, minor debuff once the snare/root is broken so they aren't completely discounted in content like Alerts.

  • ninjapiffninjapiff Posts: 282 Arc User
    I sorta like the idea for maintained holds, though I'd rather add a new type of CC power that functions like that and keep Holds the way there already are. Perhaps Incapacitates could be reworked to act like that (as their current function isn't really that far off from what you suggest), but add in some sort of reverse-"break free" mechanic? Like how you need to hit the action key to "break out" of a hold, the holder could hit the action key to maintain said hold.

    Also, what if only characters with higher CC strength could effectively maintain the hold for the longest periods of time? Granted, that'd require a overhaul of the way CC strength/CC resistance works in CO (assuming it even works at all?) though based on what we've already said that's not really outside the realm of possibility if the rest of what is suggested here was actually done.
    It makes sense, if you don't think about it.
    __________________________________________________
    Most often Slice N Dice@zap-the-eradicator in-game.
  • beerbanebeerbane Posts: 197 Arc User
    I like the idea of CC strength being linked to hold efficiency - maybe add this functionality to Manipulator so it is worth ranking up? Rank 3 Manipulator = ability to hold up to Master Villain/Enforcer consistently?
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    ninjapiff said:

    As it is, the Mentalist Framework has overall been getting less and less... well, in a word, "good".

    Actually I have very much enjoyed playing my Control Tank in high-end content. It's rather good and in some instances invaluable.
  • violetnychusvioletnychus Posts: 136 Arc User
    Easy solution:

    Eliminate the fact that PVE enemies escape the hold when you attack. Keep the effect in PVP.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Easy solution:



    Eliminate the fact that PVE enemies escape the hold when you attack. Keep the effect in PVP.​​

    If you want to incapacitate stuff while you beat on it, use a stun. A high end crowd control build is quite capable of stunning most stun-vulnerable stuff for longer than it takes to defeat it.
  • ninjapiffninjapiff Posts: 282 Arc User
    See, that's why I never got into PvP much in MMOs. I enter a Battleground/Arena/Colosseum, instantly get stun-locked by three different players' incapacitate powers simultaneously, die before I can even make an opening attack, and go back to questing.

    THAT is what I mean by "True Crowd Control"; incapacitation to the point where you instantly win. And I'm not just talking about crowd control in MMOs, either; whether we think of the use of Mustard Gas and other chemical weapons in WW1, to the Romans' tactic of digging trenches around their forts with hidden spike traps, to using a tear gas grenade to dispel a rioting crowd in Ferguson, MO, being able to divert, repel, incapacitate and otherwise rout an enemy without any actual combat is oftentimes a goal in warfare. Being able to control an enemy through tactics can end a war before a single bullet is fired.

    Also @kamokami I'm not saying the Mentalist framework is "bad". But however well you use it now know that it was once even better.
    It makes sense, if you don't think about it.
    __________________________________________________
    Most often Slice N Dice@zap-the-eradicator in-game.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    ninjapiff said:

    Also @kamokami I'm not saying the Mentalist framework is "bad". But however well you use it now know that it was once even better.

    I believe that. But I also think that while it was even better, it was useless. Because everything worth holding was either killed too quickly or was immune. What needs immediate change are the targets of control powers overall.

    Right now crowd control is actually very very useful in fighting Qwyjibo, Kigatilik, and in Teleios Ascendant. In the case of the former it's actually pretty much required. This latest set of content makes holding targets an optimal choice in way more scenarios than we've seen for years. That's because those targets can:
    - make life hard if not held or killed
    - would take a serious effort to kill and/or would respawn right away
    - are not immune to crowd control

    The above 3 points are pretty unique to Qwy, Kiga, and TA. But if this latest content is any indication of a trend, we'll hopefully see more like it....where using this long-dead mechanic of the game is an optimal choice.
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    lol telepathy's been bad ever since the early days, when it was mind-breakingly OP. I know a few people have gotten it to work really well, Vixy here and Ravenforce being a few major ones, but IMO that more showcases the exception that proves the rule: Devs for this game have and always will hate telepathy. Any time something in the set is found that performs as desired, it's gonna be nerfed some time in the next 6 months. A few of the theorycrafting gods here will be able to take literally anything and make it look amazing. Hell, I saw Cyrone make Mind Link look fantastic once, I still can't wrap my brain around that one.

    But it's good to see the old rules have changed, I never agreed with the fact that most of the time it made more sense to burn the adds down than hold em.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • xkagearashixxkagearashix Posts: 397 Arc User
    ninjapiff said:

    But the Mentalist Framework isn't just CC, and shouldn't just be CC. As we stand now, the Mentalist Framework is split into two Powersets: Telepathy and Telekinesis. I feel like this is sort of a mistake, especially in the case of Telepathy. By naming the powerset "Telepathy", you invite an ENORMOUS amount of possible powers and concepts that could fit that bill. "Telepathy", itself, if way too broad a category and should be broken up if we ever really want to see more Mentalist Powers. Here are some "new" Mentalist powersets that could replace Telepathy and further narrow down the various jumble of powers that the Framework currently holds:

    • Illusion: A handful of powers summon "entities" that help attack your foe, while others debuff your targets and cause DoTs. Powers like Summon Nightmare and Collective Will fit as powers that summon illusory enemies, while powers like those of the Master of the Mind Miniset could fall within the debuffing/DoT aspect of "Illusion".
    • Manipulator: Taking the name from the hallmark Form, the Manipulator Powerset would consist of most of the CC powers we know and love/hate from the Telepathy Framework. Holds, Incapacitates, and Stuns would fall into this category, as well as possibly including various debuffs.
    • Mental Empowering: Not the best name, but until I think of a better one that's what I'll call it. This would mostly include the healing/shielding powers of the Telepathy Powerset, as well as possible buffing powers that may or may not exist in the future (a girl can dream, can't he?).
    There could be other subsets of the Mentalist Framework that aren't coming to me right now, but I hope my point gets across at least. The entire Framework could use some cleaning up, and really should be.

    missed one, I have a fairly successful ranged telepathy dps, that the only CC it uses is Ego sleep, thus a dps ranged Telepathy powerset would be a nice addition
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