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PSA: Reviving During Kigatilik Fight
xrazamax
Posts: 979 Arc User
There seems to be some confusion with reviving during Kigatilik encounters. People are saying that healers should NOT revive players during the fight with Kigatilik. The thinking is, "Well, they'll just die again and thus heal Kigatilik once more since he heals when players die."
This is incorrect.
When you die, there is an internal cooldown that prevents Kigatilik from healing again due to your death. Therefore, you do not need to worry about giving Kigatilik health if you die right after being revived.
Now, the argument is usually then made, "Healers should still not revive players. It is faster if they just respawn/ dying twice in a row sucks, better if I start far away/the healer should just heal, not waste time reviving."
These are also incorrect statements and bad strategy for the most part for the following reasons:
TL;DR - give the healer a chance to revive you if it looks like they might be able to. You'll keep your stars, and you won't give kiga healing if you immediately die again due to an internal cooldown mechanic that prevents it.
This is incorrect.
When you die, there is an internal cooldown that prevents Kigatilik from healing again due to your death. Therefore, you do not need to worry about giving Kigatilik health if you die right after being revived.
Now, the argument is usually then made, "Healers should still not revive players. It is faster if they just respawn/ dying twice in a row sucks, better if I start far away/the healer should just heal, not waste time reviving."
These are also incorrect statements and bad strategy for the most part for the following reasons:
- When you die, you cannot give Kigatilik healing for a set amount of time afterwards. If you choose to respawn, you'll be wasting that cooldown timeon traveling back to Kigatilik.
- If you know a healer won't have the ability to revive you in a timely manner, then the proper thing to do is respawn. However, if you see they are providing other players with revives, wait just a moment. The healer will make the decision if they have the ability to respawn at that time.
- When you respawn, you lose a star. This diminishes your damage bonus. You will now do less damage for the rest of the encounter unless you recover those stars. If all DPSers are respawning, there is a major drop in the team's damage output.
- If you think a healer is making things worse by reviving instead of constantly healing, consider that each time you respawn and lose a star that your healing bonus diminishes. Your self healing is now lower and you put more stress on the healer.
TL;DR - give the healer a chance to revive you if it looks like they might be able to. You'll keep your stars, and you won't give kiga healing if you immediately die again due to an internal cooldown mechanic that prevents it.
Post edited by xrazamax on
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
In such a situation, if the team is going to reset, then rezzing becomes a non factor because a wipe is... well.. a wipe. Everyone has to respawn because everyone is dead - including the healer. However, if it is not established that the team is going to wipe and reset, the same rules apply in normal circumstances.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Losing stars isn't that much of a deal. You can just refresh it with the Star Refills quickly. That's what they're made for, right?
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I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Typically, after aggro slips up and some DPS or Nutcase-using-Crippling-Challenge-who-isn't-a-tank causes a mass of people to die, we need to revive more than we need to heal the tank. Aggro messing up causes healers to die too, and we want them up 24/7. Hitting recover and traveling back takes more time than people realize. If we see an opportunity, we'll take it. If not, then you are free to hit Recover. A single healer can heal or revive, but not both at the same time, so be aware of the entire battle's situation before making the call to Recover.
We want you back on the front ASAP, but we also have other duties to attend to. Help your supports and take the time to pass your own judgement. If we both can agree on it based on what's going on without saying a word, things go much smoother. It's a matter of assessing the situation, and deciding the best course of action. Things get clunky when our judgements disagree, such as when others expect revival when the healer is hard at work keeping the fire going, or when others believe it best to walk all the way back when the healer sees revival opportunity to be a safe bet. Do not automatically assume "X choice is better," instead just be aware of what's going on on both the macro and micro scales.
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2. Before you spend too much time invested in "you lose stars when you respawn", check the numbers for you damage and healing at different amounts of stars. On level 40 toons with toggles, R3 passives, high-end gear, etc., the stars make very little difference in DPS/HPS. When my Lightning Arc drops from 2200 DPS to 2160 DPS . . . so?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I'm not saying that healers need to make sure they are reviving people or that you need to wait for a revive instead of respawning in every circumstance. You need to be aware of whether a healer will be able to revive you, if it is possible to revive soon, if the tanks are needing constant healing, etc.. The Healer will also need to decide if they can spare a moment to revive. The issue is that there are players who will tell healers to NEVER revive and to stop reviving players and even go so far as to accuse them of making things worse.
If you find it is better for you to respawn because you can get back into the fight quicker or for any other reason, then PLEASE RESPAWN. However, many healers will have the ability to keep their tank alive and still pull off revives with no problem and in doing so they will be greatly helping out.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
From my point of view the main problem were a few (melee) dps players dying again and again. But it might not have been only their own fault, the positioning of all melee players seemed to be a bit off. Both the tanks and the dps were not making proper use of their 10 feet range.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Healers want to res, it's up to them and whether they think they can get it off safely.
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But if you're on a non-healer and yelling at healers if they rez someone.. quite frankly bug off. Do your job and let the healer do theirs. And the opposite - if you're on a dps and screaming for a rez every few seconds.. bug off. Sometimes I might choose to rez a dps'r if things are going smoothly. Sometimes I may not - especially if the tank is getting hit very hard or if there's a dot that prevents me from charging powers.
It's the healer's decision not yours... play your own toon.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
1. We miss a frost tomb
2. A couple dogs get loose
3. A DPS peels Kiga aggro off of the main tank and he starts AOE bombing squishies
4. A griefer shows up
5. etc.
... then you might as well be doing any of the things that we yell at DPS for doing. The cooldown on healing from individual death is irrelevant when it doesn't prevent Kiga from healing more than we can dps. It would take a group of 33 people averaging 2k dps over 18 seconds to undo the healing gained from four people who keep dieing.
If the dogs are under control, and Kiga is under control, any DPS who is dead on the altar is probably hurting the group a lot more than they are helping it and should be left out of the fight as long as possible. That's the sign. It doesn't really get much clearer than that. There's not a lot of grey area or need for discretion.
These guys show up... level 22, level 26, etc. I invite them to team. I ask them to sidekick. I ask them to click the open mission team up button. I explain the fight. The level 22 who has never done this before has no problems blocking the ice storm, shooting the tombs, and not dieing.
So who is dieing in this fight? Who is healing Kiga? Are there people who are not using block during the storm because they know you are just going to rez them anyway?
However long this cooldown is, I'm sure it's over by the time the next ice storm comes around. We want the people who would die to ice storm to still be dead from the last time so we can make progress in the actual fight instead of stalling until it falls apart. Don't even tell them to hit the recover button. Just let them keep calling for a rez. We need them out of the fight as often as possible without healing Kiga.
We aren't losing the Kiga fight because we don't have enough dps. We lose it because people keep dieing. Don't rez those people.
How much dps does someone who dies every ice storm have to do to make up for that 300k heal to Kiga? 10k dps? 15k dps? How are we supposed to win if you keep rezzing 3-5 of those people?
TL: DR
1. Rez tanks and healers
2. Trick DPS into calling for help
3. Profit.
As for stars, I consider those largely irrelevant. As a dps, that 15% extra healing won't do anything meaningful for my ability to survive ( a heal for 1000 becoming 1150 won't save my butt ), and each star appears to increase my damage by about 0.1%. People can just ignore stars as a factor in anything.
Also Mira, keep in mind, people are going to keep getting on your case about this because some people are just going to do that. Don't let it bug you, and don't be too disappointed when people don't listen.
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In that case, yes, I frequently use my group rez when a bunch of heroes get defeated at Kiga. They come back with 1/3 health, and that is immediately followed with more healing to everyone rezzed. I paid careful attention to this tactic on Kiga yesterday, and I did not have any instance of this strategy being bad for the group.
Rezzing the same person over and over, who gets defeated once a minute or two, is definitely unhelpful, though.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Rezzes are super useful in instanced content where there is a lockout. But for Cosmics, you can rarely go wrong by hitting Recover right away.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
1) Tanks
2) Healers
If you pay attention to the list I made, DPS is not there (check 1 and 2 again just to be sure).
Most often than not, at the beginning of Kiga we have barely enough Tanks and Healers to pull it off (more show up when the chat in Cosmic is looking positive and they are guaranteed a succesful run). We are frequently running 4 dog tanks, 4 dog healers and 1 main tank and 1 main healer.
With that distribution, even if the situation is looking ideal, all it takes is for Solidarity the Healer to get distracted trying to revive Faceplant the DPS while Unlucky the Tank suddenly gets Frost Caged. While held Unlucky cannot block Kiga's continued attacks so he dies and the whole thing goes to chaos.
All because Faceplant couldn't bother to respawn 20 feet away and pull the mobs on the path to Kiga to get the dog healers killed.
In CO many players think that when they can't tank or can't heal they're dps. But playing a dps is not that easy, you need to:
- survive while being dependent on healers as little as possible
- do your part to complete all the dps checks
- not pull agro from tanks that need to block more than half the time
Almost all dps players fail at least one of those, and many two or even three.
By "great", I mean the ones that are well-informed about each aspect of the cosmics. Ones who can exploit openings in each cosmics' attacks to resurrect/heal others, deal continuous damage, generate threat, and tell the clueless what to do. Ones who know the attacks and their own capabilities well enough to correctly sort them into blocking categories like: always full-block, should block, half-blockable, unnecessary to block. Ones who know when to take risks to ramp up or take precaution and slow down their threat generation. Ones who adjust according to the current situation to position themselves in safer areas, to plan for the next attack, and to resort their constantly changing list of priorities. Ones who are able to stay calm and manage stress when attempting a common goal with 49 other, sometimes uncooperative, players.
Players with situational awareness, knowledge on threat/blocking/power mechanics, a drive to improve and question current methods of taking on cosmics, and a will to cooperate through defeats until victory. Only a very small group of players have some of these traits or do some of these things. They're the ones who are really the deciding forces that are making cosmics succeed, or fail when they are absent.
We don't only need great experienced players, but new players as well who can grow to fill in these spots. They've got to be good listeners and be willing to learn, which isn't simply declaring that you want to learn. They need to show some incentive by asking questions when they can't seem to beat something. They read the update notes and read guides on game mechanics. They identify that they are making mistakes and the mistakes they are making. They're the ones who are making changes in their playstyle rather than repeating the same thing over and over in expectation of a different outcome.
Might sound like too much, but it really isn't a lot to ask for, for something so endgame. It actually gives players something to work on after reaching level 40; a reason to focus on growing a main character rather than making new ones repeatedly.
Furthermore, to those players that attend cosmics ONLY for the GCR and are sitting in that "aren't willing to improve" category, stop. We have enough dead weight already with the scaling changes that are being made and the same dead weight players seem to be inhibiting changes that would make cosmics better and an actual challenge (being able to clear cosmics with such dead weight attests to its current low difficulty level). People who do this don't need it anyway since they don't care to experience content. Players that are new and improving are the ones who really need it since they'll actually put it to good use and will actually be returning something to the community with their skills and services.
Cosmics are a great challenging addition to the game, but we are short on much more than what you think and I fear that they may be left to die if players continue their current mindset. I want to see the game grow and I see this as another good stepping stone in that direction, so let's not waste the opportunity.
On topic post:
It's all situational, really. Up to both the DPS and the healer to make separate decisions. Resurrecting is a great help, provided that it's done correctly and meaningfully. There should be careful discretion by the healer as they shouldn't abandon their current job in order to resurrect if doing that would cause a problem. Most of the time though, there is definitely spare time to resurrect and I find that healers that claim otherwise are either lazy or can't make decisions correctly. However, in an emergency case where tanks are getting started on grabbing aggro again after a wipe or where you don't see healers around, as DPS it's better to just recover by yourself.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The times when you really want to tell how well you're doing are *during* the run.....especially when it's failing.....not after it's already succeeded. Very few people are thinking about how they could have done better when they're grabbing loot from the reward circle.
It'd be great to have a visible scoreboard *during* the run. Doesn't have to be real-time. It could just first show up when the cosmic is down to 2/3rds hp and get updated when it's down to 1/3rd hp.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE