Glass Cannon

glortor · May 2016

@flowcyto has told me that dex primary nets the best overall dps if I'm not completely misunderstanding this.
I'd like to know what set-ups yield the best dps for ranged and melee both.

My suspicion for ranged is dex-ego-xx and for melee it's str-dex-xx. @Aiqa says ego-dex-xx is better for ranged.

For specs I'm wondering if vindicator is the best choice, with either avenger for ranged or brawler for melee.

Furthermore I'm wondering about survivability and solo capability of such builds, with special regards to melee and infernal/w epidemic where you cannot use range as an advantage.

Discuss!

flowcyto · May 2016

Selphea did some more controlled testing w/ Sniper Rifle w/ a few SS setups. Its a bit old now, but still pretty relevant:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/250770/superstat-mods-spec-testing-with-sniper-rifle

EGO PSS isn't too far behind for ranged dps (its often rather competitive), but DEX PSS still tends to be optimal on targets w/ some resist (for both melee and ranged dps). I'd still usually take Ego PSS for ranged, though, just cause of the cost discount and Defense from Force of Will making the tree a bit more versatile. Similar case w/ Str PSS and melee.

INT PSS isn't great for dps at first glance, until/unless ya start hitting targets w/ high resist, such that Detect Vuln gets some mileage. PRES PSS is similar: not competitive for dps, until/unless ya can roll Vuln most of the times (not easy to do; holds typically lower ur own dps, so this is more of a group DPS boost). More importantly, perhaps, is how well Pres PSS helps survival w/ good self-heals, but then ur choosing between Vuln, Moment of Glory, and Force of Will (can't have all maxed).

END PSS is still pretty bad for dps overall, but good for builds that tear through energy, and Hardened makes it okay for survival. REC PSS isn't great for dps w/o having high very energy, but can reduce cd timers and also help w/ energy issues. CON PSS isn't a dps tree - more or less strictly for survival and getting some knock resist w/o Str gearing. STR PSS for ranged builds is behind Ego and Dex for dps (and Int w/ DV resist, and Pres w/ Vuln), but does provide potentially quite more Defense than the other options via Juggernaut, and grants some knock resist.

If ya want "glass cannon", DEX PSS is ur go-to.

As far as specs: I'd only take Avenger w/ Blast builds using its Mastery, and/or maintains for RA. RA + Vind's Aggressive Stance is a strong pairing, but won;t cover builds not using maintains as staples. Brawler + Warden_Vind for melee can be higher dps than Wardicator, but only w/ certain conditions (Setup and/or Flanking), and it depends on the attack rotation; it ofc offers less Defense in any case.

raighn · May 2016

Another pretty decent option for melee DPS is Dex PSS w/ Brawler/Arbiter for Expose Weaknesses+Penetrating Strikes+Rend causing your Criticals to reduce tour opponents Resistance by up to 14% & Ignore another 10%... though it might not stack up to Brawler/Warden_Vindicator or Wardicator... Though it does do a pretty decent amount of damage and is a nice break from the norm... plus if you use combos it gives you access to Arbiter Mastery which can do wonders for keeping your glass cannon alive...

flowcyto · May 2016

Yeah Arbiter can work okay w/ Warden, but is more reliant on combo spam than the others, and is more of a semi-team support pick. If ya wanted to go a selfish 'glass cannon' route for melee, I'd find a way to make Brawler + Warden_Vind work.

Unknown · May 2016

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ajanus · May 2016

I'm not even sure dps even matters anymore. All the cosmic fights are based on total damage dealt...not dps. The main thing now is trying to have enough survivability to stay in the fight the whole time to keep up a continuous stream of damage. It doesn't matter if you can do 15k dps if you only are in the fight for a minute because you have to keep respawning and going to the fight. Someone that does only 4k dps, but can do that the whole 4 minutes still does more damage when the end numbers pop up. So in that regard, I would say that EGO and STR surpass DEX as primary dps stats.

Before On Alert, I was a huge fan of just absurd dps glass cannons. Now, there's just no need for it. Your third superstat can always be Con, which can lead dps to have north of 10k hp in the end. Your spec tree, which is just free damage, also has a ton of defensive options, which is yet another reason the ward/guardicator combo is so powerful. The defense/offense loop is too good since it serves double duty in staying power and damage. It is now pretty common to have dps with 10k+ hp and 300+ defense in the battle. On top of that, those same dpsers hardly ever have any kind of energy problems either. I use a pure fire toon to do these cosmics/colossi, and even through a steady stream of Conflag, my energy bar is usually maxed out the whole time.

A general rule of thumb I use on most of my toons is my primary stat matches my toggle form, 1 secondary stat matches my energy unlock (usually an energy stat as well), and the other is Con. This allows me to use any powers I want to level with or be silly with or whatever because my stats/talents/specs all work together on their own to grant me a very nice balance of damage, defense, and energy management.

If you want to mix ranged and melee on the same toon, I found that I like Aspect of the Machine for this. I ranked it up to 3 because that will probably push diminishing returns to the point that if you don't reach the 5th stack, it's not hurting much anyways. To further support this, I used Devour Essence and tanked Alerts with him the whole time and from around 20 all the way to 40, I never lost aggro on the boss unless something really drastic happened, so the damage from the last 2 stacks of AotM wasn't ever even noticed.

Unknown · May 2016

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flowcyto · May 2016

The Blade actually does pretty well defensively if speced and geared that way- at least for a melee dps. The issue w/ it isn't squishyness, imo, as much as lack of health recovery. But yeah good blocking mitigates most issues w/ being 'glassy'.

glortor · May 2016

Can we get a sticky on this? It's pretty relevant imo.

Unknown · May 2016

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flowcyto · May 2016

gradii said:

flowcyto said:
The Blade actually does pretty well defensively if speced and geared that way- at least for a melee dps. The issue w/ it isn't squishyness, imo, as much as lack of health recovery. But yeah good blocking mitigates most issues w/ being 'glassy'.
Oh no, my blade is as squishy as can be with less than 6k HP and less than 120 defense, I'm not even using the parry advantage, it would reduce my damage and I can't have that.

Haha, yea or ya can go the glass cannon way with it (to be fair, that's more natural for the AT). I guess I'm too much of a pansy to do that w/ mine :x

glortor · May 2016

@flowcyto what do you recommend to make The Blade viable in endgame/cosmics?

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squirrelloid · May 2016

I find it hard to believe Dex PSS outperforms Ego PSS on damage. You can still crank Dex with Ego PSS - which superstat you make primary determines spec options and only 40 points of superstats - you can gear for your secondary SSes instead.

And Dex's specs are *terrible* compared to Ego's. Even for straight damage. Sixth Sense alone vastly outperforms the entire Dex spec tree. (And its flat crit chance, not crit rating, so it doesn't interfere with diminishing returns from dex itself). I can't imagine ever taking Dex PSS on anything.

raighn · May 2016

squirrelloid said:
I find it hard to believe Dex PSS outperforms Ego PSS on damage. You can still crank Dex with Ego PSS - which superstat you make primary determines spec options and only 40 points of superstats - you can gear for your secondary SSes instead.

And Dex's specs are *terrible* compared to Ego's. Even for straight damage. Sixth Sense alone vastly outperforms the entire Dex spec tree. (And its flat crit chance, not crit rating, so it doesn't interfere with diminishing returns from dex itself). I can't imagine ever taking Dex PSS on anything.

Ego's Sixth Sense, last I checked is still actually crit rating despite not stating that in the description. When leveling an Ego PSS character I watched my Crit Chance when I ranked up Sixth Sense. The amount that my Crit% went up did NOT match the amount listed in the tooltip, I even removed and put my gear back on to make sure it wasn't just a refresh issue (something I've noticed many specs based off super stats encounter, you must load into a new instance or re-equip your gear to get full values) and while doing this did bump the Crit% up a little it did NOT bring it up to what the value in the tooltip should if it were a flat crit chance. Sixth Sense is Crit Rating.

Unknown · May 2016

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flowcyto · May 2016

My current Blade AT build:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Archetype: The Blade

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Blade
Level 7: Relentless
Level 12: Impresario
Level 15: Martial Focus
Level 20: Quick Recovery
Level 25: Acrobat
Level 30: Physical Conditioning

Powers:
Level 1: Reaper's Touch
Level 1: Reaper's Caress (Rank 2, Cleaving Strikes)
Level 6: Thunderbolt Lunge (Essence Assault)
Level 8: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Scything Blade (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Form of the Swordsman (Cut Where it Counts)
Level 17: Smoke Bomb (Concussive Escape)
Level 21: Parry (Rank 2, The Elusive Monk)
Level 25: Dragon's Bite (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 30: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 40: Reaper's Embrace (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Brawler: The Glory of Battle (1/3)
Brawler: Penetrating Strikes (2/2)
Brawler: Ruthless (2/2)
Brawler: Setup (2/2)
Brawler: Flanking (3/3)
Warden: Slaughter (1/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)

But like gradii said, for the current event's fights ya can do fine being 'glassy' as long as there's someone tanking (rel easy w/ all the 'OP' FF's running around you in open events) and doing/getting some occasional healing (can Team Up or get into a formal team to get noticed better, besides that, you have healing devices). At least for the shadow colossus, if ur not tanking but are just being a melee dps on the boss, then ya only have to block the long AoE charge it does about once every minute (looks like an energy wave blast- has its own indicator, and is really easy to see coming). Else, ur not aggroing adds, tanking the boss, handling orbs, or foolishly standing in front of the boss to get hit by its cleave dmg and frontal charge-ups.. and thus can just wail on it. The only annoyance there is if the tank(s) is moving the boss around often, but you have a lunge, and just stay to its back-side.

squirrelloid said:
I find it hard to believe Dex PSS outperforms Ego PSS on damage. You can still crank Dex with Ego PSS - which superstat you make primary determines spec options and only 40 points of superstats - you can gear for your secondary SSes instead.

And Dex's specs are *terrible* compared to Ego's. Even for straight damage. Sixth Sense alone vastly outperforms the entire Dex spec tree. (And its flat crit chance, not crit rating, so it doesn't interfere with diminishing returns from dex itself). I can't imagine ever taking Dex PSS on anything.

I've already shown you some raw data from controlled testing. If you don't believe Selphea's findings to hold as a general pattern, that's fine- but then ya should go parse the differences out for yourself and see what its like for ur own build.

And to clarify: Dex's teir 1 options are pretty bad; its T2 dps options are what makes it. 4-8% flat crit doesn't measure up to 10% -resist, in general, which is probably why Ego is slightly behind in dps.

Ego's Sixth Sense, last I checked is still actually crit rating despite not stating that in the description. When leveling an Ego PSS character I watched my Crit Chance when I ranked up Sixth Sense. The amount that my Crit% went up did NOT match the amount listed in the tooltip, I even removed and put my gear back on to make sure it wasn't just a refresh issue (something I've noticed many specs based off super stats encounter, you must load into a new instance or re-equip your gear to get full values) and while doing this did bump the Crit% up a little it did NOT bring it up to what the value in the tooltip should if it were a flat crit chance. Sixth Sense is Crit Rating.

I am not seeing this. On the PTS right now, wearing mostly heirloom gear and re-equipping it to update before I spend the stat points:

- Test 1, high Dex and crit:

EGO/Dex/Con, char sheet crit = 30.8% (crit offensive gear, Dex SS)
3/3 6th Sense tooltip = +7.7%.
After allocating those points = 38.6% on the char sheet.

The tooltips can beget rounding errors, due to lack of precision, but its on the mark considering that.

- Test 2, low Dex and crit:

EGO/Int/Con, char sheet crit = 12.6% (one +crit 2ndary offense used, no Dex)
3/3 6th Sense tooltip = +7.0%
After allocation = 19.6%

Again, its on the mark.

squirrelloid · May 2016

flowcyto said:

I've already shown you some raw data from controlled testing. If you don't believe Selphea's findings to hold as a general pattern, that's fine- but then ya should go parse the differences out for yourself and see what its like for ur own build.

And to clarify: Dex's teir 1 options are pretty bad; its T2 dps options are what makes it. 4-8% flat crit doesn't measure up to 10% -resist, in general, which is probably why Ego is slightly behind in dps.

So, there's a lot wrong with the tests, not least that the stat distributions aren't even remotely similar.

For example, the AOPM Ego/dex/con has more dex than ego. The AOPM Dex/ego/con has more ego than dex. These differences are large. We're talking a total superstat disparity in the ballpark of 150 points here (summed absolute value differences in superstats).

That particular test pair also features a difference in mods. (CC/DD/DD vs. CC/II/II) And for some bizarre reason, doesn't seem to be using Ego mastery because the ego primary actually gets less total AoPM SS bonus than the dex primary one.

You need to hold stat distributions roughly constant so you're only testing the spec trees themselves. Ie, swap mods so your Ego/dex/con has about the same stats for ego, dex, and con as the Dex/ego/con build. (obviously Ego/dex/con is going to have 40 total more stats, because of its mastery, but we're looking for getting close, not perfect). This is important because *stats are relatively fungible*.

(Ideally you'd test each PSS with multiple distributions of superstats).

At which point, the results are pretty worthless to me, because they aren't actually testing what we're discussing - which spec trees are better.

flowcyto · May 2016

Due to the high DR on passive dmg bonuses and crit rating/Dex's DR on crit%, the stat differences you describe will likely not bridge any sort of innate gap between flat crit (or 2/2 EO) vs. 10% resist. Besides which, you shouldn't need to equalize stat distributions on principle since diff SS setups naturally lead to diff stats.

Also, I am seeing Ego Mastery taken on the Ego PSS build Selphea referenced. I assume ya didn't meant 'CC/II/II' there, but CC/EE/EE. Again, I doubt that changing the EGO/Dex/Con setup to CC/EE/EE will make it overtake DEX/Ego/Con.

Glass Cannon

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