The point I was trying to make is that it's bad design to base tank energy regeneration around taking damage (fuel my fire, force sheath, defiance, blocking, etc) while gimping their offense-based energy regeneration (energy builder, etc).
Tanks can use energy unlocks like anyone else.
Given the fact that the vast majority of Tanks in CO are using Might, HW, or Earth... no... no they cant... For the most part if you are using any of those power sets you don't have many options for energy management.... you can either Defiance Tank or load up on Knocks for Unstoppable... sure you can take MSA with short CD powers but as I've stressed many times before MSA is not a natural EU for most builds and feels forced most of the time... a forced EU will not provide reliable energy management.
Forced or not, you can use it.
Don't forget forms. My tanks don't have energy problems.
If anything people like you are part of the problem. You defend broken mechanics as "fine" in spite of other people's experiences.
You decry these mechanics as "broken" in spit of other people's experiences. I use these "broken mechanics" every day just fine. I'm not doing anything special, I'm just playing the game as intended.
Maybe instead of pointing the finger at the game and saying "broken" you should turn that finger around 180 degrees and say "needs to learn". Then put that finger down ( it's useless and will never solve the problem you're having ). Before you burn all your bridges, consider asking some of the people who are saying it's fine, in game, how they're managing that. You'll find they're more than happy to tell you their amazing secrets.
Enough already Spinny. You've made it clear numerous times that you don't agree with anyone's QoL suggestions for the simple reason of "It's fine for me". You are not everyone, you do not represent the majority, you do not know everything. And neither do we, but we see a different perspective that you are refusing to accept exists. Problems exist with the current design and need to be addressed. Just because there are options does not mean that the right options exist.
Lets look at a few various problem areas we've got.
Energy management.... sure people "can" take MSA... that doesn't mean it's a good fit for every build. And "forced or not, you can use it" is NOT a validation. Often times people have to go to great lengths to make an EU work within their build. And Forms don't provide enough energy for every build. There is also the fact that not everyone is going to use a DPS form, some of us do in fact use IDF. And before you say "you made a conscious decision to gimp your energy return for IDF", yes it is a conscious decision but that does not mean that there shouldn't still be other viable options available to supplement energy management with IDF. Every power set deserves a proper in-set natural EU, plain and simple.
Threat generation... Tanks need their threat gen boosted significantly to keep up with the threat generated by DPS builds. Not just to keep up actually, they need to have high enough threat gen to actually hold threat over the highest DPS builds, not merely balance out the threat from above average builds... Sure it's possible to build a tank who's DPS is up there with the upper end of DPS builds, but such builds require taking very specific powers (many of which have recently been nerfed)
Role association... Because of the "healer" stigma that's been associated with the Support role, players running non-healer support builds frequently have to run in Hybrid... we need more role options... even if they are carbon copies of existing roles with different names and icons... it's a QoL thing.
You decry these mechanics as "broken" in spit of other people's experiences. I use these "broken mechanics" every day just fine. I'm not doing anything special, I'm just playing the game as intended.
Maybe instead of pointing the finger at the game and saying "broken" you should turn that finger around 180 degrees and say "needs to learn". Then put that finger down ( it's useless and will never solve the problem you're having ). Before you burn all your bridges, consider asking some of the people who are saying it's fine, in game, how they're managing that. You'll find they're more than happy to tell you their amazing secrets.
It actually makes more sense to point that finger in your direction and say, "needs to chill." We all get it, you've probably been playing this game for a long time now, meaning you know exactly which cookie cutter abilities and specializations to pick, and have all the endgame gear with top-tier mods required to make things work in this "no problem at all" way you're rattling on about. Good for you! /golfclap
Maybe you fail to see any issues with the game mechanics because you've been playing for so long, you've become blinded to them. You know, like how a person with really bad body odor can't smell themselves since they've become noseblind to their own reek--except with game mechanics.
As for further elaborating the problems, raighn seems to have covered everything I was going to say already.
PS: What bridges am I burning exactly?
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Enough already Spinny. You've made it clear numerous times that you don't agree with anyone's QoL suggestions for the simple reason of "It's fine for me".
Actually, if you were paying attention, I said that it works for lots and lots of people who use these "broken" mechanics just fine every day. Maybe you're misunderstanding something ( reading your post makes it seem this is the case ): I'm not saying energy generation is fine, I'm saying it's not broken. Important distinction. Personally I could think of a lot of improvements that would make energy generation more interesting. Don't worry, I can assure you that what I mean by "interesting" is probably something you would hate and fear.
PS - if you can't handle people disagreeing with you, don't participate in discussions. nobody put you in charge, so your claim of "enough already" is limp and silly ^_^
PSS - an in case you were strawmanning, I'm certainly not saying everything is fine. That's just a big white flag some of you people like to hide behind sometimes
Energy management.... sure people "can" take MSA... that doesn't mean it's a good fit for every build. And "forced or not, you can use it" is NOT a validation. Often times people have to go to great lengths to make an EU work within their build. And Forms don't provide enough energy for every build. There is also the fact that not everyone is going to use a DPS form, some of us do in fact use IDF. And before you say "you made a conscious decision to gimp your energy return for IDF", yes it is a conscious decision but that does not mean that there shouldn't still be other viable options available to supplement energy management with IDF. Every power set deserves a proper in-set natural EU, plain and simple.
Good, at least you realize that you made a conscious decision to give up on that energy gain mechanic and that means that, in part, you're responsible for the problem you're complaining about. That said, I have builds that use Aspect of the Machine. I have builds that don't use an energy builder. Trying to complain to me about IDF making energy management impossible really isn't going to fly.
The rest of your post had nothing to do with energy management, so I'll assume it wasn't directed at me and ignore it.
It actually makes more sense to point that finger in your direction and say, "needs to chill."
Sure, that's one way you could go. It's not going to solve the issue you're having tho... if anything, this would likely push you further away from a positive conclusion.
What you need to take note of is that there are many many players who are generating energy well enough to use their abilities constantly, and they're not doing this by always using the same powers. You should take note of this, and perhaps find out how you can get them to inform you of how they're managing this.
I'll give you this hint for free: Blocking and taking damage are, at best, supplemental forms of gaining energy for tanks.
It actually makes more sense to point that finger in your direction and say, "needs to chill." We all get it, you've probably been playing this game for a long time now, meaning you know exactly which cookie cutter abilities and specializations to pick, and have all the endgame gear with top-tier mods required to make things work in this "no problem at all" way you're rattling on about. Good for you! /golfclap
Cookie cutter abilities and specializations? End game gear? Top tier mods? Oh right you're new so you don't know how ridiculous it is to make these claims about me ^_^ I'll just go ahead and let you know they're ridiculous and false on each count and let you do with that what you will.
Maybe you fail to see any issues with the game mechanics because you've been playing for so long, you've become blinded to them. You know, like how a person with really bad body odor can't smell themselves since they've become noseblind to their own reek--except with game mechanics.
Odd analogy ( pssst, Smackwell, bad analogies, time to lock the thread! ). This is an odd statement to make though, because as far as I can tell it's newer players who come in, don't know what they're doing, and then rage about how everything is broken. If anything, I know what's wrong with this game more than you do... probably several times over. I can assure you that energy generation is not one of those issues ( you can tell because one of the ways they're balancing over-performing powers is by making them cost more, to make energy generation an actual part of your build you have to consider )
Don't you dare try to strawman me. I never said anything about it being broken, I said it's a problem area that needs to be addressed. You have been the one constantly saying "broken". QoL issues are rarely about a broken mechanic, they are about IMPROVING the experience and removing unnecessary complications... and yes making things easier. The closest to "broken" i have said is that the current state of energy management for powersets that lack EUs is bad design. Fixing bad design falls under QoL. A mechanic doesn't have to be broken to be bad design. And not everything that needs to be fixed is necessarily broken either.
Regarding the latest balances with energy cost increases... almost all of those occurred on powers with an in-set EU and the ones that were on a set that did not have an in-set EU came with the addition of a new in-set EU for that very powerset... What does that tell you about energy management? It certainly doesn't say "it's fine for every powerset". And that has been my point this whole time. Yes it's fine for most sets, BUT there still exists multiple powersets & minisets that do NOT have a native in-set EU or even a truly viable out of set EU.
Force, Laser Swords, Might, Heavy Weapons, Earth, Sorcery... all of these lack a native in-set EU. Luckily Cryptic appears to be addressing the powersets that are lacking EUs lately though... With Ice & MA both recently having an EU added to them with their most recent power adjustments... and unfortunately there exists at least one EU that is highly impractical and largely considered useless (Hunter's Instinct, due to the low hit rate of Archery making a crit-based EU impractical)...
This has gone way off track, and frankly has become pointless. You can shout and scream and whatever as loud and for as long as you want, but just because you can't see a problem, that doesn't mean it's not there and it doesn't make you right.
Sometimes my INT/ REC END hybrid power armor tank holds aggro pretty well and without any crippling challenges. (has challenging strikes in the powers anyway). She also uses full Armadillo set.
YAAAAAH yeh A HYBRID TANK with no CON, dats what I call fun.
Don't you dare try to strawman me. I never said anything about it being broken, I said it's a problem area that needs to be addressed. You have been the one constantly saying "broken".
You defend broken mechanics as "fine" in spite of other people's experiences.
When I talk about someone saying things are broken, I'm referring to little miss-and-or-mister aesica here... and since you jumped in to defend them... yeah. You can't jump in to defend someone and then completely disown everything they said, that makes you a paper white knight. uwu
This has gone way off track, and frankly has become pointless. You can shout and scream and whatever as loud and for as long as you want, but just because you can't see a problem, that doesn't mean it's not there and it doesn't make you right.
To be fair, you can shout and scream and whatever as loud and for as long as you want claiming that things are broken... but so long as there are plenty of other people doing just fine, it doesn't make you right o3o
I like to tank, but I do so in hybrid role because:
1) This game's energy regen system is ****. No seriously, the concept of grossly-weak energy builders for dps, and fuel-my-fire regen for tanks is just awful. If someone out-threats me in the tank role, my energy regen is a lot gimpier since I need to block hits/take damage to get decent energy regen. Seriously, who's the moron who thought this was good design?
2) If there's other decent tanks (it happens a lot and it's really annoying) then I just fall back into dps. Yes, I actually designed my character to do both because this game's matchmaking system is such garbage.
Oh well
Whoever designed the Tank role to have an Energy Penalty, needs to be Shot, Unshot and Shot again
I absolutly Hate playing in the Tank Role, I can roll as a Healer in Support all day every day, but tanking? nope
Thats why all the characters of mine with Defensive Passives play in Hybrid as well
To see how useless the Threat generation in Tank Role is, Recently I have been pugged in Forum Malvanum with 3 players in Tank role, while I was playing as my TK Character who use Seraphim in Support role
Guess who kept agroing stuff and Bosses all the time... I did
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Don't you dare try to strawman me. I never said anything about it being broken, I said it's a problem area that needs to be addressed. You have been the one constantly saying "broken".
You defend broken mechanics as "fine" in spite of other people's experiences.
When I talk about someone saying things are broken, I'm referring to little miss-and-or-mister aesica here... and since you jumped in to defend them... yeah. You can't jump in to defend someone and then completely disown everything they said, that makes you a paper white knight. uwu
Oh, I was unaware that I am not allowed to voice my own opinion in a PUBLIC DISCUSSION. You cannot use what some one else said to claim that I have the same exact view. My view is that it is a problem and needs to be addressed, the mechanic may not be broken but that doesn't mean that it's not still flawed and poorly designed. I want to see the game improved not remain in the same state forever. If someone brings up a topic that is in fact in need of improvements then yes I will jump in and voice my opinion on it and try to get attention to the topic in hopes that it will be addressed. Sue me for wanting to see a game that I love improved upon.
When I talk about someone saying things are broken, I'm referring to little miss-and-or-mister aesica here... and since you jumped in to defend them... yeah. You can't jump in to defend someone and then completely disown everything they said, that makes you a paper white knight. uwu
I don't recall being defended by anyone. A few have voiced similar observations as me, about how energy generation needs to be reexamined, but agreeing with someone (even if only partially) has nothing to do with being a "white knight" in any way.
Serious question: Are you trolling? There's nothing wrong with sharing thoughts on how a game can be improved. Is there?
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
I thought tank energy management is simply a matter of lunge or groin kick + MSA or Flashfire + Thermal Reverb or Ball Lightning + Ionic Reverb.
Of course Might and Laser Sword really could use a native unlock but from the looks of it, we're slowly getting there.
Personally, I think they should just get rid of energy unlocks entirely, then up the base energy regen in a way that everyone innately has the X% per 3 seconds provided by most energy unlocks. (Getting rid of energy gimmickry in forms (penalties and bonus returns) would be a nice touch as well, but one thing at a time I suppose.)
Currently, energy unlocks only add cheap nonsense to most builds, and playing any build (especially ATs, omg) until it actually gains its energy unlock is...agonizing, to say the least.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
To see how useless the Threat generation in Tank Role is, Recently I have been pugged in Forum Malvanum with 3 players in Tank role, while I was playing as my TK Character who use Seraphim in Support role
Guess who kept agroing stuff and Bosses all the time... I did
If people being bad at something meant a mechanic was broken, wouldn't that mean that everything in the game was broken? you don't seem to have any complaints about your tank's threat generation when we're running TA!
My view is that it is a problem and needs to be addressed, the mechanic may not be broken but that doesn't mean that it's not still flawed and poorly designed.
Fair enough. What improvements do you suggest to the energy system?
A few have voiced similar observations as me, about how energy generation needs to be reexamined, but agreeing with someone (even if only partially) has nothing to do with being a "white knight" in any way.
Serious question: Are you trolling? There's nothing wrong with sharing thoughts on how a game can be improved. Is there?
Well see Raighn was being sensible. You're just raging cause you can't use something that other people are doing fine with, there's a difference.
PS - If you get in the habit of calling people who disagree with you trolls, you'll lose the ability to have discussions with anyone but people who agree with you.
Personally, I think they should just get rid of energy unlocks entirely, then up the base energy regen in a way that everyone innately has the X% per 3 seconds provided by most energy unlocks. (Getting rid of energy gimmickry in forms (penalties and bonus returns) would be a nice touch as well, but one thing at a time I suppose.)
Currently, energy unlocks only add cheap nonsense to most builds, and playing any build (especially ATs, omg) until it actually gains its energy unlock is...agonizing, to say the least.
If you take Endurance as your Primary Super Stat then you can have exactly what you're asking for! In Hybrid Role it literally gives exactly what you're asking for, a % of your max energy every 3 seconds. The mastery functions as an Energy Unlock and changes what it does based on your role. You're then free to take another power instead of an Energy Unlock... or even use both!
Having played a lot of ATs I don't feel like that first hour or so of play is particularly agonizing due to the lack of an energy unlock. Then again, I don't think I've ever felt agony while playing a video game.. except when I'm playing co-op with Rodyle...
My primary suggestion to fix the energy issue is to have an EU for every powerset & miniset... and a wider variety of general purpose EUs... Such as an EU that triggers off finishing combos or full charging powers... The EUs for every powerset should be a reality before to long... and with any luck that will include a few more general purpose EUs...
After that AotM needs to grant energy per stack like other offensive forms, and IDF needs some form of energy return proc. Personally I think IDF should return energy in the same manner as Defiance & Fuel my Fire, but it should only trigger when the person who is actually using IDF gets struck, not when anyone affected by it is struck.
Also remove the ridiculous energy penalties for Tank role... they really are unnecessary...
The last thing is a merger of End & Rec into a single stat... The new merged spec tree would need to be worked out in a way that is both balanced and reflective of the existing specs... and End Mastery should be kept over Rec Mastery.
Just a minor clerical correction... End mastery is every 5 seconds in hybrid, it's conditional triggers in other roles are 3 seconds.
Such as an EU that triggers off finishing combos or full charging powers...
Sounds very similar to some EUs I recently suggested in the suggestion forum check that out, when you stopped waggling your finger at me, we found out we have similar ideas!
As for AotM, it would likely have to have its damage bonus lowered if it also gave energy, so I'm not sure I'm in favor of that change.
I think it'd be particularly amusing if the Force energy unlock somehow counted as an Energy Form. As for Might I'll repeat it again - I think they should take the energy generation mechanic out of Might passives and make them separate EUs.
I disagree with merging End and Rec. I disagree with lowering the tank energy penalty - increasing the threat bonus seems like a better way to go.
If IDF is going to give energy, then it should also stack, and only at full stacks should it give the current amount of damage reduction. I also don't think it should stack on taking damage - instead, it should stack on using a bubble power on self or other, and should also become similar to Compassion in that it gives a bonus to bubbles, but not heals or damage, instead just make the bonus to bubbles even bigger and have it scale with presence/endurance.
Well see Raighn was being sensible. You're just raging cause you can't use something that other people are doing fine with, there's a difference.
PS - If you get in the habit of calling people who disagree with you trolls, you'll lose the ability to have discussions with anyone but people who agree with you.
Likewise, you lose the ability to have serious discussions with anyone when you refer to them as "raging" or "white knighting" (ad hominem) followed by a gross misinterpretation and exaggeration of their claim (strawman). That type of nonsense has no place in an actual discussion. Speaking of strawmen...
If you take Endurance as your Primary Super Stat then you can have exactly what you're asking for! In Hybrid Role it literally gives exactly what you're asking for, a % of your max energy every 3 seconds. The mastery functions as an Energy Unlock and changes what it does based on your role. You're then free to take another power instead of an Energy Unlock... or even use both!
We have this. My point was that EUs should go away entirely, and the amount of energy they're responsible for generating should become baseline for players.
Having played a lot of ATs I don't feel like that first hour or so of play is particularly agonizing due to the lack of an energy unlock.
Personal preference, then. The first few hours are typically, *charged attack*, *charged attack*, *huff-huff-pant-pant-pant-pant* (that's the energy builder), repeat. Once they finally get their energy unlock at, oh, somewhere in the mid 20s, there's more real attacks and less gasping for breath.
The last thing is a merger of End & Rec into a single stat... The new merged spec tree would need to be worked out in a way that is both balanced and reflective of the existing specs... and End Mastery should be kept over Rec Mastery.
I would love to see this. These two stats seem like they both want to do the same thing in different ways. I kind of feel the same way about strength and ego as well, however definite tweaking would need to happen. Currently, a single stat that both increases damage and knockback strength/resistance as well as hold resistance would be insanely powerful.
If IDF is going to give energy, then it should also stack, and only at full stacks should it give the current amount of damage reduction. I also don't think it should stack on taking damage - instead, it should stack on using a bubble power on self or other, and should also become similar to Compassion in that it gives a bonus to bubbles, but not heals or damage, instead just make the bonus to bubbles even bigger and have it scale with presence/endurance.
No, sorry but that's a really bad idea. It makes the power way too dependent on other powers to function properly. IDF is fine as it is now.
The only thing I'd advocate for forms (including IDF) in their current state is removing both the energy penalties and the energy generation. It seems really stupid to me to say, "there's an energy penalty for using this buff, but to offset that penalty, you'll get extra energy every time you build stacks!" Buff forms should be just that--straight buffs that you can use to augment your attack power, protect yourself and teammates, etc. Complicating energy in all that is completely unnecessary.
If people are coming up short on energy generation, just tweak the base regen rate. There's no reason to have energy generation as gimmicky as it is currently.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Why? If you want to actually convince anyone, you'll have to do better than just "I think X" without giving any reasoning to support your stance.
Oh, are we at that part of the debate where we debate how to debate? That's generally when the discussion becomes the most productive and when people are really listening to one another
Why? If you want to actually convince anyone, you'll have to do better than just "I think X" without giving any reasoning to support your stance.
Oh, are we at that part of the debate where we debate how to debate? That's generally when the discussion becomes the most productive and when people are really listening to one another
Or you could just explain why you think it's bad to merge endurance and recovery.
Or why you support the tank energy penalty.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Or you could just explain why you think it's bad to merge endurance and recovery.
Or why you support the tank energy penalty.
Sure. See I'm a proponent of variety. I like more choices, and more things to choose from. I like a slightly more complex system rather than a very simple system because it seems more interesting to me. From what I've seen "interesting" is what keeps people interested in a game like CO, and while the interplay between Endurance and Recovery and other stat options isn't the most complex thing ever, it still is a contributing factor to the game's complexity. I feel that merging the two into one would be a loss to the games "interesting" factor, which would be a shame since the devs seem to currently be working hard to increase that very same factor. I feel choosing recovery or endurance can actually be one of the more defining aspects of a character in how that character will actually play, as can choosing both - these three choices should remain three choices, because currently there seems to be a focus on making more choices viable, so I don't think now is the time to start lopping off choices.
If they remove the tank role energy penalty then that penalty would have to come out of somewhere else, and the only real place they could do that is to hit tank role's damage even harder. I find 80% equilibrium and max energy the much more favorable penalty to take. To be honest, I don't see how my energy going from 51/144 to 44/124 could cause my character to go from "playable" to "broken". 7 less equilibrium and 20 less max energy are not exactly a mountain to cross. In exchange for the power and utility that the tank role provides there have to be penalties - the ones they've implemented to energy are pretty light, considering they're offset by the large gain to energy from blocking. On top of that, the ways you're actually gaining energy, other than your energy builder, aren't even effected. If anything, this penalty encourages tanks to rely less on their energy builder, and more on their form, EU, blocking, and other sources, which is likely better for their threat and survival anyway. I feel like if anything has been holding tanks back it's the fact that some powers aren't performing as well as others - get a tank using the under-performers in a party with someone using the over-performers and the entire balance of threat vs damage falls apart. If any changes are going to be made to roles, they should wait to be done until after they're finished balancing out the individual powers - only then will we actually get to see if the threat values are functional, or if they need to be increased. The energy penalty however is one I don't feel needs to go, as it's off-setting any other penalties the tank role would have to take, and does so in a way that doesn't get in the way too much.
Sure. See I'm a proponent of variety. I like more choices, and more things to choose from. I like a slightly more complex system rather than a very simple system because it seems more interesting to me. From what I've seen "interesting" is what keeps people interested in a game like CO, and while the interplay between Endurance and Recovery and other stat options isn't the most complex thing ever, it still is a contributing factor to the game's complexity. I feel that merging the two into one would be a loss to the games "interesting" factor, which would be a shame since the devs seem to currently be working hard to increase that very same factor. I feel choosing recovery or endurance can actually be one of the more defining aspects of a character in how that character will actually play, as can choosing both - these three choices should remain three choices, because currently there seems to be a focus on making more choices viable, so I don't think now is the time to start lopping off choices.
Considering both try to do the same thing, the only "interesting" (Dr Evil finger-quotes here) choice is "which one is going to boost my energy gains in a way that gives me the greatest uptime on my abilities?" The two could easily be merged into one stat and, with some balancing, not much else would really change.
I mean hell, Recovery even increases your maximum energy by a lesser amount than Endurance, while Endurance boosts energy gains through any ability that bases its gains on maximum energy.
If they remove the tank role energy penalty then that penalty would have to come out of somewhere else, and the only real place they could do that is to hit tank role's damage even harder. I find 80% equilibrium and max energy the much more favorable penalty to take. To be honest, I don't see how my energy going from 51/144 to 44/124 could cause my character to go from "playable" to "broken". 7 less equilibrium and 20 less max energy are not exactly a mountain to cross. In exchange for the power and utility that the tank role provides there have to be penalties - the ones they've implemented to energy are pretty light, considering they're offset by the large gain to energy from blocking. On top of that, the ways you're actually gaining energy, other than your energy builder, aren't even effected. If anything, this penalty encourages tanks to rely less on their energy builder, and more on their form, EU, blocking, and other sources, which is likely better for their threat and survival anyway. I feel like if anything has been holding tanks back it's the fact that some powers aren't performing as well as others - get a tank using the under-performers in a party with someone using the over-performers and the entire balance of threat vs damage falls apart. If any changes are going to be made to roles, they should wait to be done until after they're finished balancing out the individual powers - only then will we actually get to see if the threat values are functional, or if they need to be increased. The energy penalty however is one I don't feel needs to go, as it's off-setting any other penalties the tank role would have to take, and does so in a way that doesn't get in the way too much.
I don't see why there needs to be a penalty at all. Why would some random penalty need to be applied elsewhere if the tank role's energy penalty was removed? The correct answer is, "it doesn't." The only penalty that really makes any sense, across any role, is the damage and threat reduction applied to support, but the huge energy boost it receives could arguably allow it to put out greater damage than actual dps roles.
Hybrid and both damage-dealing roles all increase damage dealt, so in a way, tanks already incur a damage penalty. Add to that the fact that tanks can't slot offensive passives and you've got plenty of penalty right there. Best of all, you don't even need to gimp their energy generation to impose those penalties!
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Considering both try to do the same thing, the only "interesting" (Dr Evil finger-quotes here) choice is "which one is going to boost my energy gains in a way that gives me the greatest uptime on my abilities?"
And there you go, an interesting choice that I would like to preserve.
I don't see why there needs to be a penalty at all. Why would some random penalty need to be applied elsewhere if the tank role's energy penalty was removed?
It wouldn't be random. The reason there needs to be penalties is to offset the benefits, and tank-role gets quite a few. Give it some time and you'll figure out how to make your character work with the slight energy penalty.
Considering both try to do the same thing, the only "interesting" (Dr Evil finger-quotes here) choice is "which one is going to boost my energy gains in a way that gives me the greatest uptime on my abilities?"
And there you go, an interesting choice that I would like to preserve.
You are using the term "interesting" to imply that an opinion is fact, though. To me, these are interesting choices:
Do I want to be a tank, healer, damage dealer, misc support provider, or a curious mix of all?
Do I want to theme my character around ice, poison, swords, big meaty fists, or something else entirely?
How will my character look?
Do I want high burst capability or high sustain?
Do I want to use mostly charge powers, or mostly maintain powers?
Do I want to focus on single target, or aoe?
And so on. That stuff is interesting.
Meanwhile, "which of the two painfully-similar energy management stats makes the stuff above less of a drag to deal with?" pales in comparison. It's about as much fun as "which energy unlock will work best with all my fire-themed powers?"
It wouldn't be random. The reason there needs to be penalties is to offset the benefits, and tank-role gets quite a few.
Uh, I just listed the disadvantages one has by taking the tank role when they don't actually intend on tanking. You don't hit as hard. You generate more threat. You can't slot an offensive passive. Keeping that silly energy penalty on top of all that is overkill.
Oh, are we at that part of the debate where we debate how to debate? That's generally when the discussion becomes the most productive and when people are really listening to one another
Choosing between end and rec is noot a meaningful or interesting choice since both stats actively require a certain amount of the other stat to be properly benefitial. Rec past a certain point increases your Equilibrium far past your max energy without also stacking End, and End eventually results in your equilibrium being so low that you're constantly running out of energy despite having an excessively large max energy pool.
The main draw to having a large pool of energy is to have a longer amount of time before you run out of energy, but that doesn't work when high End results in you sitting at about 5% of your max energy consistantly. A meaningful and interesting choice doesn't include it's own self-created pitfall. Look at every other stat, all of them are nothing but positives. End and Rec both inlude their own negatives that can only be rectified by the other. The two stats mechanically should be one.
It wouldn't be random. The reason there needs to be penalties is to offset the benefits, and tank-role gets quite a few.
Actually, not really. It's only actually interesting benefit is increased threat, the survival advantages of a slight increase in health and damage resistance are offset by significantly inferior self-healing.
Choosing between end and rec is noot a meaningful or interesting choice since both stats actively require a certain amount of the other stat to be properly benefitial.
This is not true. Taking one does not require taking the other.
It wouldn't be random. The reason there needs to be penalties is to offset the benefits, and tank-role gets quite a few.
Actually, not really. It's only actually interesting benefit is increased threat, the survival advantages of a slight increase in health and damage resistance are offset by significantly inferior self-healing.
The benefit to threat alone is huge. You've run TA, you've seen how different a fight is when aggro isn't controlled. It's a big deal. Now add in all the other advantages. I'm sure you're not going to try to push the idea that the energy penalty makes tanks impossible to play.
Oh, are we at that part of the debate where we debate how to debate? That's generally when the discussion becomes the most productive and when people are really listening to one another
Uh, I just listed the disadvantages one has by taking the tank role when they don't actually intend on tanking.
So... are you not intending to tank... or are you tanking in hybrid role?
Ugh...
Pointing out that you're trying to pass off your opinion (that end vs rec is somehow an interesting choice when I highly disagree) as fact is not a strawman.
As for the other thing, not sure what it's even supposed to mean or imply. Tanking as hybrid works well enough, and has the added benefit of allowing me to fall back on dps if I end up in a group where 2-3 other tanks show up and happen to outgear me.
My point was that there's no reason at all that someone will pop into the tank role unless they actually intend on tanking. DPS who want added survivability will get a lot more out of using hybrid + a defensive passive instead of trying to use the tank role. Where was I going with this? It was meant to illustrate that having the energy reduction penalty on tanks is unnecessary because the role is already undesirable to people who don't intend on actually tanking.
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The benefit to threat alone is huge. You've run TA, you've seen how different a fight is when aggro isn't controlled. It's a big deal. Now add in all the other advantages. I'm sure you're not going to try to push the idea that the energy penalty makes tanks impossible to play.
No, what it means is that tank role is only useful in multi-player instances where you want to be the tank, which is something like 1% of the game.
Pointing out that you're trying to pass off your opinion (that end vs rec is somehow an interesting choice when I highly disagree) as fact is not a strawman.
I never made the claim that my opinions were facts. You made that up so that you could criticize me for it. It's actually almost a combination strawman/ad hom falacy.
Removing the energy penalty wouldn't change that. Not even slightly.
True. The real flaw with the tank role isn't energy, it's that it doesn't get any heal scaling so you actually have lower survivability than hybrid. Having it scale self-heals with superstats would be my preference.
Pointing out that you're trying to pass off your opinion (that end vs rec is somehow an interesting choice when I highly disagree) as fact is not a strawman.
I never made the claim that my opinions were facts. You made that up so that you could criticize me for it. It's actually almost a combination strawman/ad hom falacy.
Hardly a strawman and definitely not ad hominem (no offense intended, but do you know what these actually mean?)
1) Your words -- "And there you go, an interesting choice that I would like to preserve" -- implies that it is an interesting choice, not that you think it's an interesting choice. I (and others) don't see it as an even remotely interesting choice. If that wasn't what you meant, then I'm sorry for misundestanding. Preceding such things with phrases such as "I think..." or "I feel..." can be very useful for distinguishing statement-of-fact vs statement-of-opinion.
2) This is starting to feel like a political debate, where both sides just shout their opinions at each other without any real chance of swaying anyone's opinion one way or another. When this is over, I'm still going to think the energy penalty for tanks is unnecessary and that energy in general is too bloated down with nonsense, someone else may just agree with the part about the tank penalty being unnecessary, you'll think they're all fine, and ultimately, nothing will change. On top of that, the devs (assuming they're even reading this drivel, which I doubt) have their own opinions on what's fine vs what needs to change. They'll go ahead with what they want regardless of what random players like us are shouting about.
So with that in mind, is there really any reason for us to discuss this any further?
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
1) Your words -- "And there you go, an interesting choice that I would like to preserve" -- implies that it is an interesting choice, not that you think it's an interesting choice.
You misunderstood.
Here's a bit of a tip: when people say "That's interesting" they're always giving you their opinion. If you need people to specifically tell you when they're giving you an opinion, you should make that known at the beggining of any conversation you have from now until the end of time because people generally don't need that pointed out for them and you'll need to inform others that you're an exception.
Removing the energy penalty wouldn't change that. Not even slightly.
True. The real flaw with the tank role isn't energy, it's that it doesn't get any heal scaling so you actually have lower survivability than hybrid. Having it scale self-heals with superstats would be my preference.
We already have tanks that can keep themselves up through TA ( heck, we have DPS who can tank TA and keep themselves up... ). To then throw hybrid-level healing on top of that seems like it would be overdoing it... now Tanks are holding the threat, and healing themselves ( and potentially others ) even more so than now, and it would be a bit too much inflation of the role's power. Tank role is primarily about the threat, so the only place I would want to see it get a buff is in that department. If you want the Hybrid-level heals, you give up the Tank-level threat ( unless you grab that one Spec that most people don't use 'cause wardicator ).
Each role has a major and a minor. Tank role has threat as its major, and survival as its minor. If we give it another minor then it's got a bit too much. Truth be told, there are a lot of tanks that already don't require any healing, and there are more methods to self heal being added to the game, so I can't really see the need for Tanks to be able to heal even better.
Here's a bit of a tip: when people say "That's interesting" they're always giving you their opinion. If you need people to specifically tell you when they're giving you an opinion, you should make that known at the beggining of any conversation you have from now until the end of time because people generally don't need that pointed out for them and you'll need to inform others that you're an exception.
Never assume people can just "know" what you meant. Be clearer when you state things.
I only asked if there was a reason to continue discussing tank energy regen/etc, not that I wanted to "bow out." However, I suspect you already have, since your last batch of posts seem more concerned with nitpicking minor things rather than trying to explain your position on why an energy penalty (or -any- penalty like that) needs to exist for tanks. Remember, they already do less damage than hybrids and melee, and can't slot offensive passives. You also failed to explain why exactly you think end vs rec is an interesting choice.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
We already have tanks that can keep themselves up through TA
So? They could do the same thing in hybrid role, and they're likely using effects that don't scale with heal strength such as sentinel mastery, necrullitic elixir, or regeneration. The point is, tank role should be 'sacrifice offense for survivability', not 'sacrifice offense for inferior survivability'.
Hybrids do not get bonuses to healing... hybrids get no bonuses or penalties what so ever... they are the base.
Tanks have a bonus to resistance & threat at a cost to healing & damage. Supports get a bonus to healing & CC at a cost to damage DPS get a bonus to damage at a cost to resistance
These bonuses and penalties are balanced out to encourage team play. Yes CO despite being freeform actually does have a trinity system basis to it's roles. Tanks are not meant to be able to heal themselves for massive amounts of damage, they are meant to be able to resist massive amounts of damage and can help sustain themselves through smaller heals. Supports are meant to be needed to provide backup to the DPS and Tank and offer tanks the large heals that they will inevitably need to survive the toughest content. DPS are not meant to be able to survive much on their own, they are damage plain and simple. Melee DPS get some added survivability via melee passives but otherwise suffer the same resistance penalties as ranged DPS. That's simply how things were designed. Now whether or not the game and community followed that design over the years is a different thing entirely (and it's pretty clear they did not).
As for the energy differences in the roles... I know Support has a bonus to energy to make it easier to keep up using strong healing abilities on allies, which was a necessity since strong heals come with a heavy energy cost (ignoring Iniquity, that's a whole other cup of tea). Tanks, I'm honestly not sure why they got their penalty but if I were to wager a guess it'd be that at one point it was meant to counter-act the high potential energy a tank could have had from defiance, or to discourage them from investing in high energy cost heals.
System mechanics were designed to drive a certain level of balance... of course the nature of freeform steered that entirely off track... but even still the system was designed to encourage & discourage certain choices within each role and this entire discussion has shown that it has indeed had that effect to some degree as people are aware of options that aren't truly viable for role X but are perfectly viable for role Y... the problem though is that the question of certain options being truly viable or not in certain roles was only brought into light when specs were released and a few select specs made people consider certain alternatives more seriously.
'This role causes your SUPER STATS to increase all Damage you deal and increase Healing you do'
straight off Hybrid's description
and neither damage role has any kind of resistance penalty - the only listed penalties they have are reduced control power strength and reduced energy from blocking
since your last batch of posts seem more concerned with nitpicking minor things
You're the one who wanted to start debating how to debate. If you didn't want to go down that path, then why did you start in that direction; since you clearly don't want to, I imagine this is the last I'll hear from you over it.
I very clearly explained my position on the energy penalty, go back and read the posts where I did so since apparently you missed them.
We already have tanks that can keep themselves up through TA
So? They could do the same thing in hybrid role, and they're likely using effects that don't scale with heal strength such as sentinel mastery, necrullitic elixir, or regeneration. The point is, tank role should be 'sacrifice offense for survivability', not 'sacrifice offense for inferior survivability'.
You're not sacrificing offense for inferior survivability. You're sacrificing offense for superior threat generation. Tank's survivability comes from their Defensive Passive, which is then augmented by their role bonuses.
And yes, they can switch to Hybrid Role and tank in that. Hell, some people are tanking in DPS roles. Nature of the game ey? That's why I think the only buff that Tank role needs is to it's role threat bonus, to make it the clear best at what the role is actually meant to do: keep aggro. Tanks are tough enough already, they don't need anymore self-healing.
If a tank is soloing or whatever and doesn't need the threat, then switch to Hybrid. ATs can't do that, but that's just the reality of ATs - none of the other role-locked ATs can do it either. FF tanks certainly don't need a collateral buff just so AT tanks can do some more damage while soloing( and let's not forget, people who pick Tank ATs very much know what they're getting into as it's common knowledge that tanks often do lower damage in trinity games ). Plus AT tanks get that fun AT damage scaling. Granted you didn't mention ATs, but I'm just covering that for good measure.
We already have tanks that can keep themselves up through TA
So? They could do the same thing in hybrid role, and they're likely using effects that don't scale with heal strength such as sentinel mastery, necrullitic elixir, or regeneration. The point is, tank role should be 'sacrifice offense for survivability', not 'sacrifice offense for inferior survivability'.
You're not sacrificing offense for inferior survivability. You're sacrificing offense for superior threat generation. Tank's survivability comes from their Defensive Passive, which is then augmented by their role bonuses.
So you're saying tank role should be useless when soloing? Outside of a few degenerate Sentinel-Protector tank setups that rely on % of health healing, any fight you can solo in tank role you can also solo (faster) in hybrid role, and there are a few fights you can solo in hybrid that you can't solo in tank.
You're the one who wanted to start debating how to debate. If you didn't want to go down that path, then why did you start in that direction; since you clearly don't want to, I imagine this is the last I'll hear from you over it.
I very clearly explained my position on the energy penalty, go back and read the posts where I did so since apparently you missed them.
1) You're making assumptions again. Pointing out your logical fallacies doesn't in any way say "I want to debate how to debate." It's actually mean to be more along the lines of, "hey, you're using a logical fallacy. Stop pls."
2) You clearly explained your opinions, yes. But you never actually backed them up with anything solid.
Hybrids do not get bonuses to healing... hybrids get no bonuses or penalties what so ever... they are the base.
They get an extra bonus to healing and damage that scales with their superstats. It doesn't really compare to the healing/damage bonuses given by dedicated roles (nor should it) but it's still enough to make their self-healing superior to that of tanks or dedicated damage-dealers, and their damage superior to that of tanks.
Edit: As an added bonus, there's less pressure to feel pigeon-holed into "just ranged dps" or "just melee dps."
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So I made a mistake with thinking DPS role had a resistance penalty (I could have sworn I saw one last time I looked at the bonuses to each role, my mistake. I havn't been able to get on to check due to my computer being in the shop, posting from a tablet). BUT, hybrid still doesn't actually provide a bonus to anything. Yes the role DESCRIPTION says it provides a bonus to damage and healing "based on superstats" but the actual role bonuses are all 0, there is no role penalty or role bonnus to Hybrid, it is 100% base-line all powers and stats function at their base values. Other roles will enhance or penalize certain statistics in relation to the roles function.
Comments
Don't forget forms. My tanks don't have energy problems. You decry these mechanics as "broken" in spit of other people's experiences. I use these "broken mechanics" every day just fine. I'm not doing anything special, I'm just playing the game as intended.
Maybe instead of pointing the finger at the game and saying "broken" you should turn that finger around 180 degrees and say "needs to learn". Then put that finger down ( it's useless and will never solve the problem you're having ). Before you burn all your bridges, consider asking some of the people who are saying it's fine, in game, how they're managing that. You'll find they're more than happy to tell you their amazing secrets.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Lets look at a few various problem areas we've got.
Energy management.... sure people "can" take MSA... that doesn't mean it's a good fit for every build. And "forced or not, you can use it" is NOT a validation. Often times people have to go to great lengths to make an EU work within their build. And Forms don't provide enough energy for every build. There is also the fact that not everyone is going to use a DPS form, some of us do in fact use IDF. And before you say "you made a conscious decision to gimp your energy return for IDF", yes it is a conscious decision but that does not mean that there shouldn't still be other viable options available to supplement energy management with IDF. Every power set deserves a proper in-set natural EU, plain and simple.
Threat generation... Tanks need their threat gen boosted significantly to keep up with the threat generated by DPS builds. Not just to keep up actually, they need to have high enough threat gen to actually hold threat over the highest DPS builds, not merely balance out the threat from above average builds... Sure it's possible to build a tank who's DPS is up there with the upper end of DPS builds, but such builds require taking very specific powers (many of which have recently been nerfed)
Role association... Because of the "healer" stigma that's been associated with the Support role, players running non-healer support builds frequently have to run in Hybrid... we need more role options... even if they are carbon copies of existing roles with different names and icons... it's a QoL thing.
Maybe you fail to see any issues with the game mechanics because you've been playing for so long, you've become blinded to them. You know, like how a person with really bad body odor can't smell themselves since they've become noseblind to their own reek--except with game mechanics.
As for further elaborating the problems, raighn seems to have covered everything I was going to say already.
PS: What bridges am I burning exactly?
PS - if you can't handle people disagreeing with you, don't participate in discussions. nobody put you in charge, so your claim of "enough already" is limp and silly ^_^
PSS - an in case you were strawmanning, I'm certainly not saying everything is fine. That's just a big white flag some of you people like to hide behind sometimes Good, at least you realize that you made a conscious decision to give up on that energy gain mechanic and that means that, in part, you're responsible for the problem you're complaining about. That said, I have builds that use Aspect of the Machine. I have builds that don't use an energy builder. Trying to complain to me about IDF making energy management impossible really isn't going to fly.
The rest of your post had nothing to do with energy management, so I'll assume it wasn't directed at me and ignore it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What you need to take note of is that there are many many players who are generating energy well enough to use their abilities constantly, and they're not doing this by always using the same powers. You should take note of this, and perhaps find out how you can get them to inform you of how they're managing this.
I'll give you this hint for free: Blocking and taking damage are, at best, supplemental forms of gaining energy for tanks.
Cookie cutter abilities and specializations? End game gear? Top tier mods? Oh right you're new so you don't know how ridiculous it is to make these claims about me ^_^ I'll just go ahead and let you know they're ridiculous and false on each count and let you do with that what you will. Odd analogy ( pssst, Smackwell, bad analogies, time to lock the thread!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Force, Laser Swords, Might, Heavy Weapons, Earth, Sorcery... all of these lack a native in-set EU. Luckily Cryptic appears to be addressing the powersets that are lacking EUs lately though... With Ice & MA both recently having an EU added to them with their most recent power adjustments... and unfortunately there exists at least one EU that is highly impractical and largely considered useless (Hunter's Instinct, due to the low hit rate of Archery making a crit-based EU impractical)...
Stahp pls. What an unpleasant creature you are. Yeah I think I'm done with you.
Sometimes my INT/ REC END hybrid power armor tank holds aggro pretty well and without any crippling challenges. (has challenging strikes in the powers anyway). She also uses full Armadillo set.
YAAAAAH yeh A HYBRID TANK with no CON, dats what I call fun.
Also, that spec doesn't make sense, at all.
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When I talk about someone saying things are broken, I'm referring to little miss-and-or-mister aesica here... and since you jumped in to defend them... yeah. You can't jump in to defend someone and then completely disown everything they said, that makes you a paper white knight. uwu
To be fair, you can shout and scream and whatever as loud and for as long as you want claiming that things are broken... but so long as there are plenty of other people doing just fine, it doesn't make you right o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I can sacrifice DPS for Survability any day
Whoever designed the Tank role to have an Energy Penalty, needs to be Shot, Unshot and Shot again
I absolutly Hate playing in the Tank Role, I can roll as a Healer in Support all day every day, but tanking? nope
Thats why all the characters of mine with Defensive Passives play in Hybrid as well
To see how useless the Threat generation in Tank Role is, Recently I have been pugged in Forum Malvanum with 3 players in Tank role, while I was playing as my TK Character who use Seraphim in Support role
Guess who kept agroing stuff and Bosses all the time... I did
Serious question: Are you trolling? There's nothing wrong with sharing thoughts on how a game can be improved. Is there?
Of course Might and Laser Sword really could use a native unlock but from the looks of it, we're slowly getting there.
Currently, energy unlocks only add cheap nonsense to most builds, and playing any build (especially ATs, omg) until it actually gains its energy unlock is...agonizing, to say the least.
Well see Raighn was being sensible. You're just raging cause you can't use something that other people are doing fine with, there's a difference.
PS - If you get in the habit of calling people who disagree with you trolls, you'll lose the ability to have discussions with anyone but people who agree with you.
[ ^ someone gets it.
I think it would be neat if they removed the energy generation effects from Defiance and Unstoppable and turned them into seperate Energy Unlocks. If you take Endurance as your Primary Super Stat then you can have exactly what you're asking for! In Hybrid Role it literally gives exactly what you're asking for, a % of your max energy every 3 seconds. The mastery functions as an Energy Unlock and changes what it does based on your role. You're then free to take another power instead of an Energy Unlock... or even use both!
Having played a lot of ATs I don't feel like that first hour or so of play is particularly agonizing due to the lack of an energy unlock. Then again, I don't think I've ever felt agony while playing a video game.. except when I'm playing co-op with Rodyle...
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
After that AotM needs to grant energy per stack like other offensive forms, and IDF needs some form of energy return proc. Personally I think IDF should return energy in the same manner as Defiance & Fuel my Fire, but it should only trigger when the person who is actually using IDF gets struck, not when anyone affected by it is struck.
Also remove the ridiculous energy penalties for Tank role... they really are unnecessary...
The last thing is a merger of End & Rec into a single stat... The new merged spec tree would need to be worked out in a way that is both balanced and reflective of the existing specs... and End Mastery should be kept over Rec Mastery.
Just a minor clerical correction... End mastery is every 5 seconds in hybrid, it's conditional triggers in other roles are 3 seconds.
As for AotM, it would likely have to have its damage bonus lowered if it also gave energy, so I'm not sure I'm in favor of that change.
I think it'd be particularly amusing if the Force energy unlock somehow counted as an Energy Form. As for Might I'll repeat it again - I think they should take the energy generation mechanic out of Might passives and make them separate EUs.
I disagree with merging End and Rec. I disagree with lowering the tank energy penalty - increasing the threat bonus seems like a better way to go.
If IDF is going to give energy, then it should also stack, and only at full stacks should it give the current amount of damage reduction. I also don't think it should stack on taking damage - instead, it should stack on using a bubble power on self or other, and should also become similar to Compassion in that it gives a bonus to bubbles, but not heals or damage, instead just make the bonus to bubbles even bigger and have it scale with presence/endurance.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The only thing I'd advocate for forms (including IDF) in their current state is removing both the energy penalties and the energy generation. It seems really stupid to me to say, "there's an energy penalty for using this buff, but to offset that penalty, you'll get extra energy every time you build stacks!" Buff forms should be just that--straight buffs that you can use to augment your attack power, protect yourself and teammates, etc. Complicating energy in all that is completely unnecessary.
If people are coming up short on energy generation, just tweak the base regen rate. There's no reason to have energy generation as gimmicky as it is currently.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Or why you support the tank energy penalty.
If they remove the tank role energy penalty then that penalty would have to come out of somewhere else, and the only real place they could do that is to hit tank role's damage even harder. I find 80% equilibrium and max energy the much more favorable penalty to take. To be honest, I don't see how my energy going from 51/144 to 44/124 could cause my character to go from "playable" to "broken". 7 less equilibrium and 20 less max energy are not exactly a mountain to cross. In exchange for the power and utility that the tank role provides there have to be penalties - the ones they've implemented to energy are pretty light, considering they're offset by the large gain to energy from blocking. On top of that, the ways you're actually gaining energy, other than your energy builder, aren't even effected. If anything, this penalty encourages tanks to rely less on their energy builder, and more on their form, EU, blocking, and other sources, which is likely better for their threat and survival anyway. I feel like if anything has been holding tanks back it's the fact that some powers aren't performing as well as others - get a tank using the under-performers in a party with someone using the over-performers and the entire balance of threat vs damage falls apart. If any changes are going to be made to roles, they should wait to be done until after they're finished balancing out the individual powers - only then will we actually get to see if the threat values are functional, or if they need to be increased. The energy penalty however is one I don't feel needs to go, as it's off-setting any other penalties the tank role would have to take, and does so in a way that doesn't get in the way too much.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I mean hell, Recovery even increases your maximum energy by a lesser amount than Endurance, while Endurance boosts energy gains through any ability that bases its gains on maximum energy. I don't see why there needs to be a penalty at all. Why would some random penalty need to be applied elsewhere if the tank role's energy penalty was removed? The correct answer is, "it doesn't." The only penalty that really makes any sense, across any role, is the damage and threat reduction applied to support, but the huge energy boost it receives could arguably allow it to put out greater damage than actual dps roles.
Hybrid and both damage-dealing roles all increase damage dealt, so in a way, tanks already incur a damage penalty. Add to that the fact that tanks can't slot offensive passives and you've got plenty of penalty right there. Best of all, you don't even need to gimp their energy generation to impose those penalties!
It wouldn't be random. The reason there needs to be penalties is to offset the benefits, and tank-role gets quite a few. Give it some time and you'll figure out how to make your character work with the slight energy penalty.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Do I want to be a tank, healer, damage dealer, misc support provider, or a curious mix of all?
Do I want to theme my character around ice, poison, swords, big meaty fists, or something else entirely?
How will my character look?
Do I want high burst capability or high sustain?
Do I want to use mostly charge powers, or mostly maintain powers?
Do I want to focus on single target, or aoe?
And so on. That stuff is interesting.
Meanwhile, "which of the two painfully-similar energy management stats makes the stuff above less of a drag to deal with?" pales in comparison. It's about as much fun as "which energy unlock will work best with all my fire-themed powers?" Uh, I just listed the disadvantages one has by taking the tank role when they don't actually intend on tanking. You don't hit as hard. You generate more threat. You can't slot an offensive passive. Keeping that silly energy penalty on top of all that is overkill. I already know how. It's called "tank as hybrid."
So... are you not intending to tank... or are you tanking in hybrid role?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The main draw to having a large pool of energy is to have a longer amount of time before you run out of energy, but that doesn't work when high End results in you sitting at about 5% of your max energy consistantly. A meaningful and interesting choice doesn't include it's own self-created pitfall. Look at every other stat, all of them are nothing but positives. End and Rec both inlude their own negatives that can only be rectified by the other. The two stats mechanically should be one.
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Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Pointing out that you're trying to pass off your opinion (that end vs rec is somehow an interesting choice when I highly disagree) as fact is not a strawman.
As for the other thing, not sure what it's even supposed to mean or imply. Tanking as hybrid works well enough, and has the added benefit of allowing me to fall back on dps if I end up in a group where 2-3 other tanks show up and happen to outgear me.
My point was that there's no reason at all that someone will pop into the tank role unless they actually intend on tanking. DPS who want added survivability will get a lot more out of using hybrid + a defensive passive instead of trying to use the tank role. Where was I going with this? It was meant to illustrate that having the energy reduction penalty on tanks is unnecessary because the role is already undesirable to people who don't intend on actually tanking.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
1) Your words -- "And there you go, an interesting choice that I would like to preserve" -- implies that it is an interesting choice, not that you think it's an interesting choice. I (and others) don't see it as an even remotely interesting choice. If that wasn't what you meant, then I'm sorry for misundestanding. Preceding such things with phrases such as "I think..." or "I feel..." can be very useful for distinguishing statement-of-fact vs statement-of-opinion.
2) This is starting to feel like a political debate, where both sides just shout their opinions at each other without any real chance of swaying anyone's opinion one way or another. When this is over, I'm still going to think the energy penalty for tanks is unnecessary and that energy in general is too bloated down with nonsense, someone else may just agree with the part about the tank penalty being unnecessary, you'll think they're all fine, and ultimately, nothing will change. On top of that, the devs (assuming they're even reading this drivel, which I doubt) have their own opinions on what's fine vs what needs to change. They'll go ahead with what they want regardless of what random players like us are shouting about.
So with that in mind, is there really any reason for us to discuss this any further?
Here's a bit of a tip: when people say "That's interesting" they're always giving you their opinion. If you need people to specifically tell you when they're giving you an opinion, you should make that known at the beggining of any conversation you have from now until the end of time because people generally don't need that pointed out for them and you'll need to inform others that you're an exception. If you want to bow out, feel free.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Each role has a major and a minor. Tank role has threat as its major, and survival as its minor. If we give it another minor then it's got a bit too much. Truth be told, there are a lot of tanks that already don't require any healing, and there are more methods to self heal being added to the game, so I can't really see the need for Tanks to be able to heal even better.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Tanks have a bonus to resistance & threat at a cost to healing & damage.
Supports get a bonus to healing & CC at a cost to damage
DPS get a bonus to damage at a cost to resistance
These bonuses and penalties are balanced out to encourage team play. Yes CO despite being freeform actually does have a trinity system basis to it's roles. Tanks are not meant to be able to heal themselves for massive amounts of damage, they are meant to be able to resist massive amounts of damage and can help sustain themselves through smaller heals. Supports are meant to be needed to provide backup to the DPS and Tank and offer tanks the large heals that they will inevitably need to survive the toughest content. DPS are not meant to be able to survive much on their own, they are damage plain and simple. Melee DPS get some added survivability via melee passives but otherwise suffer the same resistance penalties as ranged DPS. That's simply how things were designed. Now whether or not the game and community followed that design over the years is a different thing entirely (and it's pretty clear they did not).
As for the energy differences in the roles... I know Support has a bonus to energy to make it easier to keep up using strong healing abilities on allies, which was a necessity since strong heals come with a heavy energy cost (ignoring Iniquity, that's a whole other cup of tea). Tanks, I'm honestly not sure why they got their penalty but if I were to wager a guess it'd be that at one point it was meant to counter-act the high potential energy a tank could have had from defiance, or to discourage them from investing in high energy cost heals.
System mechanics were designed to drive a certain level of balance... of course the nature of freeform steered that entirely off track... but even still the system was designed to encourage & discourage certain choices within each role and this entire discussion has shown that it has indeed had that effect to some degree as people are aware of options that aren't truly viable for role X but are perfectly viable for role Y... the problem though is that the question of certain options being truly viable or not in certain roles was only brought into light when specs were released and a few select specs made people consider certain alternatives more seriously.
straight off Hybrid's description
and neither damage role has any kind of resistance penalty - the only listed penalties they have are reduced control power strength and reduced energy from blocking
I very clearly explained my position on the energy penalty, go back and read the posts where I did so since apparently you missed them.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And yes, they can switch to Hybrid Role and tank in that. Hell, some people are tanking in DPS roles. Nature of the game ey? That's why I think the only buff that Tank role needs is to it's role threat bonus, to make it the clear best at what the role is actually meant to do: keep aggro. Tanks are tough enough already, they don't need anymore self-healing.
If a tank is soloing or whatever and doesn't need the threat, then switch to Hybrid. ATs can't do that, but that's just the reality of ATs - none of the other role-locked ATs can do it either. FF tanks certainly don't need a collateral buff just so AT tanks can do some more damage while soloing( and let's not forget, people who pick Tank ATs very much know what they're getting into as it's common knowledge that tanks often do lower damage in trinity games ). Plus AT tanks get that fun AT damage scaling. Granted you didn't mention ATs, but I'm just covering that for good measure.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
2) You clearly explained your opinions, yes. But you never actually backed them up with anything solid. They get an extra bonus to healing and damage that scales with their superstats. It doesn't really compare to the healing/damage bonuses given by dedicated roles (nor should it) but it's still enough to make their self-healing superior to that of tanks or dedicated damage-dealers, and their damage superior to that of tanks.
Edit: As an added bonus, there's less pressure to feel pigeon-holed into "just ranged dps" or "just melee dps."
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained