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Things that have run TA.
spinnytop
Posts: 16,467 Arc User
So there's a lot of claims being made about what you have to be or what you have to do to run TA, claims about 10k hit points and perfect builds, no archetypes, 1%, etc..,. Let's clear the air here and make a list of things that have run TA that defy these claims. The purpose of this list isn't to brag or to rub things in people's faces. The purpose of this list is to show people who are doubting their ability to ever go in there that they too can go. I can only mention the things I've seen, and I'm wondering what others have seen that I haven't. As folks mention them I'll add them to the list.
The list:
- A PFF tank ( tho only Telios as main tank, add tank otherwise )
- DPS Archetype ( Soldier )
- Tank Archetype ( Behemoth[main tanked], Glacier[add tank], Invincible[add tank])
- Hybrid Archetype ( Specialist )
- Healer Archetype ( Radiant )
- DPS FF with ~5k hp ( one frankenbuilt, and one heavy PA theme build )
- Glass cannon dps FF with no self heals
- FF tank without CON as superstat ( main tanked all bosses )
- No tank ( Medusa, Gravitar, Grond, Teliosaurus )
- Regen Tank ( tho one of them was SilverSpar so it really shouldn't be a surprise... )*
- Behemoth in half heroics, half merc gear with mostly rank 5 mods
- Group entirely pug'd in zone
- Non-defensive passive tank with lots of Con
- Healers tanking adds
- Turando was healer, tanked adds, and dpsed all at the same time, what a champ
- A healer that hasn't played in a bit more than a year in blue and green gear**
- A group that didn't have a healer for most of the first four bosses (because I was healing and I was dead)**
- A wimpy dark/melee glass cannon.
- DPS in full heirlooom gear.
- A stretched-thin "do it all" build that switches between damage, tank, healer, and crowd-control roles.
- 3 dps tanking Telios while tank holds adds
- Glass cannon doing "add control"
- 4 man with chat offline
- no main tank at all (had an add tank in Grond and Teleios).
* - only included because multiple people in runs have said it was unusual
** - these were both the same healer
As a second list, the only requirements that seem to be consistent is:
- a tank
- a healer
- someone who can keep the adds controlled
- the ability to pay attention to what's going on
- the ability to block/move as needed
- the ability to react quickly when things go horribly wrong
- the patience to fail a few times
- ~an hour of free time ( may vary depending on how much of the other requirements your group meets )
If you have these things you can do TA.
The list:
- A PFF tank ( tho only Telios as main tank, add tank otherwise )
- DPS Archetype ( Soldier )
- Tank Archetype ( Behemoth[main tanked], Glacier[add tank], Invincible[add tank])
- Hybrid Archetype ( Specialist )
- Healer Archetype ( Radiant )
- DPS FF with ~5k hp ( one frankenbuilt, and one heavy PA theme build )
- Glass cannon dps FF with no self heals
- FF tank without CON as superstat ( main tanked all bosses )
- No tank ( Medusa, Gravitar, Grond, Teliosaurus )
- Regen Tank ( tho one of them was SilverSpar so it really shouldn't be a surprise... )*
- Behemoth in half heroics, half merc gear with mostly rank 5 mods
- Group entirely pug'd in zone
- Non-defensive passive tank with lots of Con
- Healers tanking adds
- Turando was healer, tanked adds, and dpsed all at the same time, what a champ
- A healer that hasn't played in a bit more than a year in blue and green gear**
- A group that didn't have a healer for most of the first four bosses (because I was healing and I was dead)**
- A wimpy dark/melee glass cannon.
- DPS in full heirlooom gear.
- A stretched-thin "do it all" build that switches between damage, tank, healer, and crowd-control roles.
- 3 dps tanking Telios while tank holds adds
- Glass cannon doing "add control"
- 4 man with chat offline
- no main tank at all (had an add tank in Grond and Teleios).
* - only included because multiple people in runs have said it was unusual
** - these were both the same healer
As a second list, the only requirements that seem to be consistent is:
- a tank
- a healer
- someone who can keep the adds controlled
- the ability to pay attention to what's going on
- the ability to block/move as needed
- the ability to react quickly when things go horribly wrong
- the patience to fail a few times
- ~an hour of free time ( may vary depending on how much of the other requirements your group meets )
If you have these things you can do TA.
Post edited by spinnytop on
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Silverspar on PRIMUS
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Now if the whole team was naked I'd say it counts. A decked out team carrying one person doesn't really count.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You can add "non-defensive passive tank" to the list if you'd like. I main tanked all bosses with an offensive passive, but I am loaded up on CON.
42 40s, LTSer.
EDIT: Now folks saying its more difficult than they can handle or think should be in this game, is a different story. (I'd disagree with them, but still different than saying it can't be beaten.)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
"The stubborn people wouldn't believe that they could beat it even if they had literally just beaten it."
There are definitely people saying that. Some of them even said it during a run I was in. I always love that "Fine, one more try but then I'm done, this is impossible" moment... and then that's the time we beat it. Some people seem to think that they "have no place" in the lair, but I'm hoping that some of the less stubborn ones will see that something similar to what they are is on this list.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
42 40s, LTSer.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yes, we get it, you want CoH style tank and spank ultra casual game play.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Yes, we get it, you want CoH style tank and spank ultra casual game play.
Or..or I want to see something not be trinity!
Oh and I believe I have what you seek:https://us.battle.net/account/creation/wow/signup/
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
In other words, you don't want team game play. I get it. But sorry, not everything needs to be piss easy ultra casual game design, like you want. You've got the majority of the game for that. Including 5 adventure packs, and additional content that was dumbed down from team game play. I think you can be settled for that.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Excellent. Carry on, then.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
It's a game that prides itself on not having a standard "Trinity" setup. It has a "soft Trinity" of "damage, control and support".
However, for the vast majority of the game's lifespan, the "soft trinity" was basically just "pile on all the damage in super glass cannon builds and use active dodge/invuln abilities to trivialize the few attacks the enemies make before they die."
They completely failed at their design goal of making teamwork a thing, and instead ended up with everyone-for-themselves melee gankfests that would burst down the hardest bosses in the game in seconds, without ever letting them get more than a few attacks off. The only "support" at all was stacking damage buffs on other party members.
It led to boring, stale, elitist, rigid gameplay.
That's the sort of thing that happens in MMOs with non-trinity setups. People gravitate to milking as much damage as they can out of everything, and people who try to play builds that aren't super glass cannons get ostracized.
They misjudged their target audience and the unintended consequences of their decisions so badly that they added healing- and tanking-dedicated (at least by that game's standards) specializations in their expansion, which also added raiding.
MMOs without Trinity gameplay end up being glass-cannon gankfests where anyone who wants to build anything other than max damage doesn't get to do any group content. Because players, when given the choice, will gravitate to damage builds over everything else, due to the lack of responsibility and lack of required teamwork they entail.
PSO2's another example (it's further towards the "action game" end of the spectrum).
In trinity setups, at least everyone has a chance to contribute, even people who don't want to play incredibly fragile glass cannons.
The only MMO that's managed to both include Trinity gameplay as well as make it non-mandatory is City of Heroes.
And it did that by enabling Support characters and Tanks to run rampant with buffs, debuffs and crowd control, not by making Healers/Tanks useless or even unwanted.
The support/self-healing/buff/debuff/survivability powers (what I like to call the "boring but important" powers) in this are far too limited (both thematically and mechanically) to reliably enable even random Freeform teams to put together a working setup without having predefined roles.
Half the benefit of even having defined Roles is that it lets other players know what to expect from your build and gives you a starting point on a strategy and tactics to approach the dungeon.
Without that, you end up having either a lot more communication be necessary or running into a lot of arguments. Neither of which most people want to deal with.
And all of the above are still just problems with Freeforms. You have an order of magnitude more problems in trying to make non-Role AT teams actually work, because all of the ATs are horrible from a build standpoint.
The devs would need to make it a point to start including more theme-neutral support/self-sufficiency/buff/debuff powers before they tried to remove role-based gameplay.
And I kinda doubt that's going to happen at this point in the game's lifespan. So your railing against the trinity is about as "constructive" as anything else.
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In other words, you don't want team game play. I get it. But sorry, not everything needs to be piss easy ultra casual game design, like you want. You've got the majority of the game for that. Including 5 adventure packs, and additional content that was dumbed down from team game play. I think you can be settled for that.
Quote me where I said that
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
That being said, control was definitely overpowered in CoH and debuffing was a bit ridiculous, but the one thing that attributed to coH ease of boss fights was, well, the AI was pretty damn simple. Very rare was the time that any AV fight wasn't a debuff regen, DPS till dead. If there wasn't some tank, buff rest of team with proper defenses, DPS till dead. It really was that simple. Before that it was even simpler, as GMs could be solo'd, and of course the AV's didn't have what would be known as purple triangles to give them a fighting chance against the players.
That of course lost all luster once Incarnate came out rendering all that content moot at the point and soloable. The only real thing that made the incarnate trials hard was the ridiculous levels of control enemy mobs had making the one buff that gave everyone hold protection pretty much mandatory for those runs.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
No doubt about that, that's for sure. Though tanky DPS would probably be slower damage wise than having dedicated DPS. A team designed to support with buffs and debuffs would be best solution in this.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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42 40s, LTSer.
Well, you sure have an weird way of asking by telling people to go play WoW.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I made you guys a pit to fight in o3o go splatter it with each other's blood.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And then made the gatekeeper for the new Raid specifically require crowd control, DoT damage and direct damage, and mostly "require" a dedicated healer (it's "doable" without, but you'd need almost perfect execution of everything else and to overgear it a bit).
Still wasn't enough to make me actually want to play it (if Thief had gotten the healing spec instead of Ranger, that might've done it...), but it was pretty hilarious.
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_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Otherwise you end up with everyone playing leader, running off in different directions, aggroing everything and dying horribly.
And imagine doing that same song and dance every time you queue for a group thing. With the attendant arguments and disagreements and people being butthurt that will inevitably entail.
The trinity setup's most important contribution to MMO gameplay is that it sets expectations for your role in a group, what you can do and what you won't be expected to do.
It's possible to do without those things in CO even now, if you're playing with friends and want to tweak the system a bit. Without any onerous dungeon entry requirements on groups or anything.
But having it in place as a baseline means you might not spend the first ten minutes of every queue arguing with people over who does what.
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_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
42 40s, LTSer.
Well, you sure have an weird way of asking by telling people to go play WoW.
I'm not asking people, I'm asking you. And you still haven't answered my question?. Stop dancing around it, stop trying to hide from it, Give me at least One reason why not doing trinity is bad in a team situation/not having lairs and team content based around it. Seems like you can't
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.