SUPPORT! And all that it entails (QUESTIONS)

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• pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

  February 2016

  smileyfaceofdoom said:

  
  

  1. Between AoPM and AoRP, which one is generally more appreciated and/or recognizable?
     
  2. Following up on that, are there any numbers for effective HP that you're expected to have in order to comfortably survive that content, and can an AoPM user (assuming Wardicator) ever get away with taking a hit sans block?
     
  3. Damage debuffs have always been a mystery to me. Do they subtractively reduce some arbitrary bonus that mobs have?
     
  4. Manipulator. While it (and control gameplay in general) pales in comparison to That Other Game, is there ever any practical reason to build a character around it, or does it at least do something that a character running compassion can't?
     
  5. Only vaguely related: what DPS numbers are considered passable & exceptional these days?
     

  1. Depends on the content. AoPM is primarily an offensive bonus, AoRP is primarily a defensive bonus.
     
  2. Why would you put wardicator on a support build? A con-stacked Juggernaut/Wardicator build can be plenty tough but doesn't provide much team support. As for how tough you need to be, depends on the content.
     
  3. Far as can be determined, add up all debuffs, and divide damage by (1 + 0.01 * total) -- so 40% in debuffs divides damage by 1.4
     
  4. Manipulator is for situations where you want to hold or stun people for really really long times.
     
  5. Passable/acceptable for what character type? A lot of support builds have terrible dps. Top of the line dps builds are in the 6-7k range at the moment.
     

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• morigosa Posts: 710 Arc User

  February 2016 edited February 2016

  1: I, personally, tend to prefer AoRP. On the other hand, I hear that multiple people with AoRP in the same group can cause problems.
  
  2: I tend to aim for a minimum of around 8k EHP, but I also haven't tried the new lair; you may need more; you may be able to get away with less. AoPM with Wardicator should be able to survive reasonably well, I'd expect; you obviously don't want to be tanking with that, but I'd be surprised if it had trouble surviving stray damage short of things like Gravitar randomly deciding she's just going to kill you now.
  
  3: They're definitely not subtractive; I believe they're multiplicative, but won't promise that's accurate. Not sure about the practicality of Ebon Sigils, but I can tell you this: as a Frosty tank in Fire and Ice, I definitely appreciate any damage debuffs other people bring.
  
  4: Not my thing, I'll let someone else answer this. (That said, I hear the new lair works best with decent CC - the boss fights include nuisance adds that respawn very quickly when killed, so it's more efficient to CC them than to kill them.)
  
  5: Not a clue, sorry. I think my main hits somewhere around 3k dps with Devour Essence in hybrid role, and doesn't have too much trouble holding threat with that...
  
  6: Celestial Conduit, you say? I'll have to try that. My current support character "heals" by standing around with AoRP, IDF, Sentinel Aura, and Sentry Aura. Which is very effective in normal alerts/lairs, but isn't good enough for rampages - so I'm assuming I'll need more actual healing for the new lair as well.
  
  For non-support characters, I've tried a variety of options for self-healing; my current favorite is Ascension + Illumination - hit the former, throw the latter on the boss you're fighting, smile to yourself as the boosted healing applies to the full five minute duration of the debuff. The fact that this also heals everyone else is just added bonus.

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• smileyfaceofdoom Posts: 5 Arc User

  February 2016

  pantagruel01 said:

  
  

  1. Depends on the content. AoPM is primarily an offensive bonus, AoRP is primarily a defensive bonus.
     
  2. Why would you put wardicator on a support build? A con-stacked Juggernaut/Wardicator build can be plenty tough but doesn't provide much team support. As for how tough you need to be, depends on the content.
     
  3. Far as can be determined, add up all debuffs, and divide damage by (1 + 0.01 * total) -- so 40% in debuffs divides damage by 1.4
     
  4. Manipulator is for situations where you want to hold or stun people for really really long times.
     
  5. Passable/acceptable for what character type? A lot of support builds have terrible dps. Top of the line dps builds are in the 6-7k range at the moment.
     

  I'll confess that I run Wardicator on almost all of my characters at this point, mostly because (in a game where getting 1-shotted out of nowhere is a fact of life) I'm aggressively concerned with defense and I find the support trees either redundant or overkill when you account for how strong healing already is. But the capstones for a PRE SS Wardicator are pretty miserable.
  
  I've tried other things, like a STR SS, con-stacking rezbot w/ unbreakable but things get a bit awkward when the only one not dying is you. I just suck at finding a middle ground.
  
  Also, that means -400% damage equals divide by 4? That seems about accurate for how the ebon sigils actually work, but it does sort of devalue the minor debuffs (at least, when they're used together). Puts things in perspective though.

  morigosa said:

  
  Celestial Conduit, you say?
  

  SAY I DO. Mostly because of the annoying tap-hold thing that puts its burst (and HPS) a billion miles above any other heal. It doing decent damage and the illumination shenanigans are just a bonus. And it's easier to use as a self-heal if you make a self-target macro out of it.
  
  And I guess that is my number one concern at the end of it all: being able to survive something like Gravi giving you the random death glare. That's why I mostly build (questionably effective) tanks.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  February 2016 edited February 2016

  
  Between AoPM and AoRP, which one is generally more appreciated and/or recognizable? Particularly in difficult content. I tend to gravitate toward a presence-heavy AoPM mostly because it covers any personal energy problems, but a presence-heavy AoRP gives an impressive amount of resistance too.

  Both are good. Ideally you go into a group w/ two support heroes running both effects. As Penta said, AoPM is the more offense-oriented option, and AoRP is purely for defense. Many FF's run AoPM builds in hybrid role, but aren't high-Pres or trying to be Support, they just want the versatile self-related boosts of the passive. Its one of the easy ways to make a jack-of-all trades build, though its still not really for committed tanking on the high-end.
  
  Which one ya like may just depend on ur goals for the build, or how you prioritize. Players will notice AoPM's effects more readily, ofc, but that doesn't mean AoRP's dmgRes boost is worse- just less visible.
  
  Med Nanites is being buffed to give a smaller AoRP style effect in addition to its heal aura, which will make it better for groups than it was before. I'd prob use it in tech-themed support builds, and/or w/ charged moves and Overseer or Arbiter specs w/ Honor, since it can passively proc that w/ teammates nearby.
  
  AoAC is also a bit better now that CDR has been nerfed- it has a more stark effect on builds heavily reliant on cd-based powers. Its still quite niche as a passive, though. AoED is mostly still best left for pet array builds, and Seraphim for hybrid heal/dps builds using Paranormal attacks (can also proc Honor). I'd still stick w/ AoPM or AoRP for the high-end aura passives.

  Following up on that, are there any numbers for effective HP that you're expected to have in order to comfortably survive that content, and can an AoPM user (assuming Wardicator) ever get away with taking a hit sans block? Balancing PRE and CON has always been one of my bigger issues, but only because I have a "last man standing" mentality and enjoy bubble-rezzing people when it comes down to it.

  ~7k HP at the lowest for me; usually aim for the 8-10k range for non-tanks. 10-12k for tanks in most content. 12k+ for F&I. Not sure about the new instance, but prob on the higher ends for it, based on what I've heard. Sometimes its not as much about defense numbers as giving you enough of a visible HP cushion to react; its rather subjective and contextual.

  Manipulator. While it (and control gameplay in general) pales in comparison to That Other Game, is there ever any practical reason to build a character around it, or does it at least do something that a character running compassion can't? I tested a PRE SS+Sentinel+Overseer build that spammed vengeance w/adv to keep up res debuffs as a way to justify the build, but ended up scrapping the idea in favor of more personal defense.

  For bosses where CC isn't worthwhile, it'd come down to how much ya value the related debuffs it can bring. The right build can debuff enemy resistance by ~20-30% much of the time, which can considerably boost team dps, though ofc that usually comes at a good hit to personal dps. The new instance seems to value conventional CC higher, though; if ur running Telios Ascendant heavily then there's definitely good value to considering a controller build now. For most other areas of the game that's still not really the case, though (ie. if the mobs can be CC'd, then stuns and knocks hold up better to inc dmg than holds).

  Only vaguely related: what DPS numbers are considered passable & exceptional these days?

  Depends on many things (one of them being player expectations, so GL nailing anything down there), though if ur Support then don't expect great dps w/o doing something like a pet master build w/ AoED (and then ur more of a dps unit in disguise). Or just picking the highest dps powers and using a dps toggle or skeleton (but there again, ur not really much of a Support).
  
  I try to make my lvl 40 FF dps builds at least around 1.5-2k base sustained ST dps, Tanks and Support around 40-50% that at least. Ofc they can do way more, but I'd consider that a lower bar for contributing enough to a group to tag along. 6-7.5k is/was the highest for purely optimized dps builds that are decked out, but you could also call them unbalanced at that level, and most builds won't get nearly that high no matter how well they are made and played (due to gear, varying application of debuffs, and -mostly- the very wide base dps gulf between many diff attack powers).

  Post edited by flowcyto on February 2016

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• riverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User

  February 2016 edited February 2016

  - A Con/Pre/Rec support build w/AOPM can reach very high levels of CON and Defense, while supporting the team. The best heal in this case would be Iniquity - which is a fast activating heal that costs health instead of energy. But having high con makes that a non-issue. Plus CON's spec tree offers plenty of options to further increase your survival.
  
  - Juggernaut (Strength Primary) + Wardicator + AOPM = can be the basis for a very powerful and sturdy DPS'r. As the offense/defense loop can scale stupidly high with good gear. And Brutality actually helps both ranged and melee damage. There are plenty of those builds around.
  
  - I'm a big fan of Selphea's guides to building survivable DPS & Healer builds. You check them out here: http://www.fulldive.nu/2014/03/12/how-to-build-survivable-dps-for-gravitar/ (The link to building a survivable healer is located below the Gravitar DPS guide).
  
  Good luck.​​

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• falchoin Posts: 363 Arc User

  February 2016

  1) Between AoPM or AoRP I generally prefer to run AoRP on support builds, but that's because I'm more defensive minded. As others have said, AoPM is good for increasing dps and to a lesser extent survivability. AoRP is purely defensive. High Presence can yield over +100% resist to team while in support role.
  
  2) My AoRP/AoED support character has all of 6.1k hp (Pre with Con/Dex) and has completed Teleios Ascendant and all the rampages (not solo of course). In TA a tank may still die without blocking some of the heavier hitting attacks (like Teleiosaurus Hatchling breath). I wouldn't try to build enough hp to take a heavy hit unblocked, though you can supplement with high Presence and Protection Field or Mindful Reinforcement. Knowing when to block and where to stand is much more important than support having a giant hp pool in my opinion.
  
  3) I don't have any hard math, but I do use the ebon sigils in my support build. Against normal enemies they make a *huge* difference in damage. Against cosmics and lair bosses they don't make that much of a difference due to higher tier enemies having debuff resistances. It's for that same reason Psychic Vortex is hilariously effective vs normal mobs but useless against actual bosses. Anyway, ebon sigils can make clearing trash or dealing with adds much less of an issue and give you needed time to heal, debuff, buff, etc.
  
  4) I'm probably a weird one as I like using Manipulator. 540 PRE with full stacks gives my support character a 7.8 second AoE stun with Thunderclap on a 5.4 second cooldown (R2 w/ wider AoE advantage). Against CC immune enemies it's still a resist debuff and passive healing due to Sentinel tree bonuses and mastery.
  
  5) With AoRP active, assuming no direct healing or shielding necessary, my support character does about 1.7k dps (taken over a 2 minute period, without pre-building Manipulator stacks) against the regenerating test dummy in the Powerhouse. Exact same build (dual passives) and methodology as before with AoED has my support character at 3.2k dps over a similar 2 minute period. She does use Summon Shadows and Pyro Blades powers (with Commander tree for faster cast times of pets and sigils) and had Teleiosaurus Pheromones active for both trials. Obviously dps will suffer if shielding and healing directly is required, so take those numbers as the best possible outcome. As to whether those numbers are high, low, or somewhere inbetween I'm not sure.

  [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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• nbkxs Posts: 776 Arc User

  February 2016

  I've been playing support in TA for a while now; 2 weeks? And I say AoRP: HANDS down. Especially on some of the heavy hitting battles, like gravitar. Once she goes below 33% hp, you really need an r2 block + aorp to effectively block the blue bubbles, and not die; or nearly die. And the geysers, and yanks are doing about 15k? Or such before that; so those are one shotters too, that just come out of nowhere. AoRP helps mitigate the threat they pose, and bring it down to a manageable level. I run about 11.8k hp on my healer, so that I can take the hits; pop on dex to get those crits up, and pre primary, hovering around the ~350 mark. This is about even with the second step of DR where it basically becomes pointless to stack anymore. Got about 55% heal crits with the specs, and it works out quite nicely. Put a bubble on there for soaking while I res. And using mostly aoe heals for the quickness, and ease of use. You need split second timing, and release, and clunky heals like empathic feel very dangerous to me, you could get stuck in an animation; and not be able to block in time.​​

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• hasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User

  February 2016

  Just an odd little thought... I have been making AoPM builds with INT as their main. Using the Specialty that grants greater benefit from Super Stats and Non Super Stats with AoPM adds some disturbingly powerful synergy. Then throw in Pre as a secondary and if you want to go for maximum survival Con. You will not have issues with energy... Like as in I never need my energy builder for any reason nor an energy unlock of any sort. You can take a few hits before death. Also using something like Smoke Grenade with Escape Artist, or Evasive Maneuvers, or Palliate with Absolve to get anything that is troubling you off your back is great. This is even easier if you happen to carry around something targetable like Storm Sigils to make themselves the new target for your enemies.

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