I am fine with 8k base HP, just not with 6HP/CON. CON right now is to powerful due to both health and Nimble Mind scaling, but cutting it down that much is already causing proposals on how to buff it up again and Nimble Mind needs to be adressed seperately.
If CON was nerfed to 6 HP per CON point Nimble mind really wouldn't be as much of an issue. Gaining 25-40% crit chance for a few seconds makes it one of the only worthwhile active offenses. the only PROBLEM was that you could stack truckloads of HP AND have that only help your crit.
"The only worthwhile" just means it's better than any other AO, which means it needs to be brought in line. Having 1 AO completely outperform any other, is the worst thing you can have if you want to have variety. And that is completely separate from health scaling on CON.
8k is just too high . That is almost a 40% a 63.9% increase in base health. There is no content that is going to be challenging and no reason not to just play for DPS since everyone will have ample amounts of health without having to invest anything into getting it.
Looking at the graphs, I do think the current proposals have a bit low CON where health starts being lower than the current health, I think 350 CON is a nice value for that. After messing around with different options, I've found 6660|10 to be the best one.
I am fine with 8k base HP, just not with 6HP/CON. CON right now is to powerful due to both health and Nimble Mind scaling, but cutting it down that much is already causing proposals on how to buff it up again and Nimble Mind needs to be adressed seperately.
If CON was nerfed to 6 HP per CON point Nimble mind really wouldn't be as much of an issue. Gaining 25-40% crit chance for a few seconds makes it one of the only worthwhile active offenses. the only PROBLEM was that you could stack truckloads of HP AND have that only help your crit.
"The only worthwhile" just means it's better than any other AO, which means it needs to be brought in line. Having 1 AO completely outperform any other, is the worst thing you can have if you want to have variety. And that is completely separate from health scaling on CON.
I think Ego Surge should scale with Ego instead of Con. Because you know, it's in the name. EGO Surge, not Con Surge. That and the scaling definitely needs some toning down anyway. Buuut, that's a bit off topic.
I think 6500/10 is probably the way to go here. It's a good balance of boosting the Base Health and Con to Health scaling. I took a look at 7200/8 and 6000/12 and I think that they may be good candidates as well.
I think Ego Surge should scale with Ego instead of Con.
It probably shouldn't scale with anything at all. No other active offense powers do. Given that you're sacrificing R3, it should be somewhat better than Lock N Load, maybe 12-15%.
8k is just too high . That is almost a 40% increase in base health. There is no content that is going to be challenging and no reason not to just play for DPS since everyone will have ample amounts of health without having to invest anything into getting it.
Going from 4880 base HP to 8000 HP is about a 63.9% increase.
Currently, the range of 'effective hit points' (counting both base health and mitigation, but not active defenses and the like) for reasonably well-equipped characters in CO ranges from about 7k (support build, no Con statting but some +HP on gear, around +25% for Defense) to about 70k (defiance with 20k base health). It's very difficult to build content for that much variance.
Currently, the range of 'effective hit points' (counting both base health and mitigation, but not active defenses and the like) for reasonably well-equipped characters in CO ranges from about 7k (support build, no Con statting but some +HP on gear, around +25% for Defense) to about 70k (defiance with 20k base health). It's very difficult to build content for that much variance.
70k?!?!?!?!?!?!!?
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Effective hit points = (actual HP) * (ratio of incoming damage to real damage). If someone has +250% damage resistance (defiance, defense, tank role) and 20k base hit points, it takes 70k damage to actually defeat them.
8k is just too high . That is almost a 40% increase in base health. There is no content that is going to be challenging and no reason not to just play for DPS since everyone will have ample amounts of health without having to invest anything into getting it.
Going from 4880 base HP to 8000 HP is about a 63.9% increase.
A base of 6500 with 10 per con would be the best in my opinion. A base of 8k, especially a team of heroes with that health, would make all the game's current content trivial and would relegate CON to min/maxing of HP.
Or better yet, can we go with 7000 | 8.5 ? Can we do decimals? Is that a thing? Although 6.5k | 10 is preferable for the game's content and the difficulty of new content being developed, the only down side I'd see with it is you'd have to revisit the issue again if there was more powerful gear or a level increase since the scaling is still a tad high (but it is great for level 40 and the current ranges of stats possible).
This idea in general is probably the best and most important balancing fix that the devs could implement. The fact that everyone in this thread is mostly in agreement shows how crippling CON is in regards to balancing content for all players, making ATs viable for all content, and opening up building varieties in both PVE and PVP. This before any other content should take priority.
I'm not going to poke a dev about this thread, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't
Considering the new paradigm that Teleios Ascendant is going to offer, I still think that 8k would be optimal for that piece of content, as well as most of the most challenging rampages/onslaught battles. Though it's entirely valid that that much HP will make a huge chunk of the game's content way too easy, that's what's going to lay groundwork to essentially apply base buffs to every mob in the game. But then again, that's just my vision.
As for your bolded point, that really is the takehome here, because aside from minutae of how exactly this should be scaled, basically everyone posting agrees that base HP goes up, and CON benefit goes down.
How're you going to do this without trivializing Tanks that use Con to make a difference, especially for Defiance, sure this will bring DPS builds up but what of Freeforms soft caps on Raw stats? you give AT's HP and with greater Raw damage, where does that leave Tanks? it's more or less going to encourage Hybrid builds to balance out since pushing HP isn't going to be worth it, should raise the Ego/Str soft caps to compensate.
How about using a soft cap on CON instead, ~300-400 Super stats, that way you would keep tanks somewhat ahead when it comes to their role and discourage single stating CON, either that or personally maybe 6K Base and 10HP per 1 CON point could work, would bring down those 20K HP Tanks to 15/16K, if I did the math right. O.-.o
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
You need to re read the OP. Base HP will be higher. this only really hurts those with more than 350 CON at all. Most tanks don't HAVE more than 350 CON. (only the most OP super tanks who probably should not be allowed to have more than 15k HP)
*Re-reads* Oh there it is, I see it now, I see it...
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
The thing that leads me to believe that a base of 8k is too is the fact that my PBR build is often mistaken as a tank (Even when in ranged role!) during Fire and Ice due to the fact I can keep Kenina's aggro and withstand her attacks with only 8k-ish HP. I have Con as a secondary superstat that is not heavily invested in - if I could swap that Con out for a Stat like Dex, I would be doing DPS through the roof without any sacrifice to my ability to take on even Kenina.
Future content may warrant a higher durability (such as more HP) but I think that could be solved in other ways, such as builds trading off DPS for more defense. And alternative and much more prefered solution would be the increase of base HP to even higher numbers (8K or more) and the buffing of all health and damage for enemies in the game. I think this would give healers and CC players more leeway to do their thing.
The thing that leads me to believe that a base of 8k is too is the fact that my PBR build is often mistaken as a tank (Even when in ranged role!) during Fire and Ice due to the fact I can keep Kenina's aggro and withstand her attacks with only 8k-ish HP. I have Con as a secondary superstat that is not heavily invested in - if I could swap that Con out for a Stat like Dex, I would be doing DPS through the roof without any sacrifice to my ability to take on even Kenina.
Future content may warrant a higher durability (such as more HP) but I think that could be solved in other ways, such as builds trading off DPS for more defense. And alternative and much more prefered solution would be the increase of base HP to even higher numbers (8K or more) and the buffing of all health and damage for enemies in the game. I think this would give healers and CC players more leeway to do their thing.
I think if future content needs significantly higher health, that should be solved with gear giving a percentage health bonus. The reason I agree with changing CON is not so much any specific fight, but more that a difference between 6k and 20k is just to high.
But in the end it will continue to stay tricky to balance all that tank/dps stuff. On my PA tank build I didn't take CON (since PA is just to energy hungry and I wanted ok ish dps), so that put me at about 8k health in tank role, and with about 150% resistance from invulnerability, defense and phalanx adv on energy shield. Now when I play my healer with AoRP she gives the rest of the team a 138% resistance bonus. So all in all my PA tank teamed with a healer with the Seraphim passive, is very close in survivability against bosses compared to a dps build with 8k health that is teamed up with a AoRP healer.
The thing that leads me to believe that a base of 8k is too is the fact that my PBR build is often mistaken as a tank (Even when in ranged role!) during Fire and Ice due to the fact I can keep Kenina's aggro and withstand her attacks with only 8k-ish HP. I have Con as a secondary superstat that is not heavily invested in - if I could swap that Con out for a Stat like Dex, I would be doing DPS through the roof without any sacrifice to my ability to take on even Kenina.
That's their mistake, almost any dps can tank kenina with a little skill and use of the block button. If it was frosticus you were talking about there might be an issue.
I can't tank Frositicus, but I can hold him for a while until I get held and am unable to block.
The thing that leads me to believe that a base of 8k is too is the fact that my PBR build is often mistaken as a tank (Even when in ranged role!) during Fire and Ice due to the fact I can keep Kenina's aggro and withstand her attacks with only 8k-ish HP. I have Con as a secondary superstat that is not heavily invested in - if I could swap that Con out for a Stat like Dex, I would be doing DPS through the roof without any sacrifice to my ability to take on even Kenina.
That's their mistake, almost any dps can tank kenina with a little skill and use of the block button. If it was frosticus you were talking about there might be an issue.
But see, that's to allow for not the Holy trinity, I don't think that should be taken away, ever. Then theirs going to be two trinity endgames in the game, this new thing, and F&I(which actually is the only rampage besides Gravi that I care about) . The HP thing suggested by the OP is fine, just don't make F/I into trinity, or Teleios.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Considering the great benefits Con provides through Juggernaut (which feeds into the Gwardicator loop), through Nimble Mind in Ego Surge, and as a secondary superstat in a variety of spec trees won't a lot of people still want Con as a SS even if there is some change to how many HPs it provides? Would just a change to HPs make all that much a difference?
(...) Dps toons struggle with being constantly one shotted and feeling pathetically weak despite their impressive damage (...) Tanks can keep their defense and high HP, but it shouldn't be FOUR TIMES the HP of a dps.
In every single game I have been looking, with a role system, this happens, thats why tanks exist, to get the damage to their, and protect the dps weak-but-overdamage guys safe, it happens in MMORPGs, In MOBAs, just need more teamwork.
I do agree that base hp must be more, that will help most of dedicated dps builds and most ATs, but nerfing Tanks is not the way to deal with this problem
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Considering the great benefits Con provides through Juggernaut (which feeds into the Gwardicator loop), through Nimble Mind in Ego Surge, and as a secondary superstat in a variety of spec trees won't a lot of people still want Con as a SS even if there is some change to how many HPs it provides? Would just a change to HPs make all that much a difference?
Yes, to those of us who make characters without Con as a SS and without Strength as a PSS. We do exist. In droves.
well at the end, it's all about the maths behind, if they are gonna make something, they must, if it's going to be this way, will be for the best, hope that if devs take this in consideration doesn't mess up more than already is
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
I think the degree of con nerfing is a bit too high, but I do think the concept is good, important, maybe instead of 6 the new con could be 10 with a base [at level 40 in balanced role] of 6000 health + 10/con. Stacking con should be useful for more than scaling specs, fair game adv and defiance.
it is definitely too good at the moment, but the level of adjustment you propose is .. a bit much.
Considering the great benefits Con provides through Juggernaut (which feeds into the Gwardicator loop), through Nimble Mind in Ego Surge, and as a secondary superstat in a variety of spec trees won't a lot of people still want Con as a SS even if there is some change to how many HPs it provides? Would just a change to HPs make all that much a difference?
Yes, to those of us who make characters without Con as a SS and without Strength as a PSS. We do exist. In droves.
^ This. I use Intelligence Primary, and Constitution for my tanking mode near-exclusively because of the HP. The only power I have that benefits from the Constitution is Defiance. That's why I'm on the side of not-eviscerating the stat at its core.
Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
The thing that leads me to believe that a base of 8k is too is the fact that my PBR build is often mistaken as a tank (Even when in ranged role!) during Fire and Ice due to the fact I can keep Kenina's aggro and withstand her attacks with only 8k-ish HP. I have Con as a secondary superstat that is not heavily invested in - if I could swap that Con out for a Stat like Dex, I would be doing DPS through the roof without any sacrifice to my ability to take on even Kenina.
That's their mistake, almost any dps can tank kenina with a little skill and use of the block button. If it was frosticus you were talking about there might be an issue.
But see, that's to allow for not the Holy trinity, I don't think that should be taken away, ever. Then theirs going to be two trinity endgames in the game, this new thing, and F&I(which actually is the only rampage besides Gravi that I care about) . The HP thing suggested by the OP is fine, just don't make F/I into trinity, or Teleios.
Oh I agree theres already too much trinity rigidity in Fire and Ice.
That isn't the point. The point is that with just 8k you CAN tank kenina. So fine, get your DPSer up to 8k and tank em. However, a base of 8k would mean that without any investment towards it, just with the base hp you can take keninas attacks all day - in fact everyone will be able too to varying degrees. There is something to be said for not getting flattened easily, but you don't want people with durable builds to look at players using a Targeting Computer passive with base HP being just fine. Those defensive builds wonder, "Well geez, what the heck did I put all those stats in defense for then?!" So yeah 8k is just too high.
Oh I agree theres already too much trinity rigidity in Fire and Ice.
That isn't the point. The point is that with just 8k you CAN tank kenina. So fine, get your DPSer up to 8k and tank em. However, a base of 8k would mean that without any investment towards it, just with the base hp you can take keninas attacks all day - in fact everyone will be able too to varying degrees. There is something to be said for not getting flattened easily, but you don't want people with durable builds to look at players using a Targeting Computer passive with base HP being just fine. Those defensive builds wonder, "Well geez, what the heck did I put all those stats in defense for then?!" So yeah 8k is just too high.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking. That's really the only thing a tank would be batting an eye at and getting the urge to say "dey tuk ar jerbs" about. I don't think any player with a durable build is going to look at someone tanking kenina and feel like their existence is somehow less meaningful for it. "Kenina Tank" isn't really some great title that tanks strive for.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking.
Personally I'm on the opposite side : buff HP from CON so talents like Adrenaline Rush (on CON tree) and Arbiter Mastery would stop to look like troll talents.
Oh I agree theres already too much trinity rigidity in Fire and Ice.
That isn't the point. The point is that with just 8k you CAN tank kenina. So fine, get your DPSer up to 8k and tank em. However, a base of 8k would mean that without any investment towards it, just with the base hp you can take keninas attacks all day - in fact everyone will be able too to varying degrees. There is something to be said for not getting flattened easily, but you don't want people with durable builds to look at players using a Targeting Computer passive with base HP being just fine. Those defensive builds wonder, "Well geez, what the heck did I put all those stats in defense for then?!" So yeah 8k is just too high.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking. That's really the only thing a tank would be batting an eye at and getting the urge to say "dey tuk ar jerbs" about. I don't think any player with a durable build is going to look at someone tanking kenina and feel like their existence is somehow less meaningful for it. "Kenina Tank" isn't really some great title that tanks strive for.
It isn't an issue of having your "role" invalidated (Why are you guys so hung up on roles?) but that worrying about defense and durability becomes a non issue because everyone is decently durable. In other words - it makes content too easy even at just base health, so just focus on dps since you aren't going to die much anyways.
Oh I agree theres already too much trinity rigidity in Fire and Ice.
That isn't the point. The point is that with just 8k you CAN tank kenina. So fine, get your DPSer up to 8k and tank em. However, a base of 8k would mean that without any investment towards it, just with the base hp you can take keninas attacks all day - in fact everyone will be able too to varying degrees. There is something to be said for not getting flattened easily, but you don't want people with durable builds to look at players using a Targeting Computer passive with base HP being just fine. Those defensive builds wonder, "Well geez, what the heck did I put all those stats in defense for then?!" So yeah 8k is just too high.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking. That's really the only thing a tank would be batting an eye at and getting the urge to say "dey tuk ar jerbs" about. I don't think any player with a durable build is going to look at someone tanking kenina and feel like their existence is somehow less meaningful for it. "Kenina Tank" isn't really some great title that tanks strive for.
It isn't an issue of having your "role" invalidated (Why are you guys so hung up on roles?) but that worrying about defense and durability becomes a non issue because everyone is decently durable. In other words - it makes content too easy even at just base health, so just focus on dps since you aren't going to die much anyways.
Right but what bluhman is saying is this isn't intended to balance survival to current content, his numbers are based off survival in the new lair, and what seems to be shaping up as FUTURE content. He's suggesting this in order to make said future content easier to balance.
Existing content can always be adjusted, same as future content, but we should be looking at how to make said future content easier to balance for a wider variety of build types.
This is pretty much the case. We shouldn't be restricting players because of their survivability, or lack thereof. The incoming content is supposed to promote coordination between the team, and that doesn't exactly work all that well when players whose builds restrict them from having durability to fend off something as random as Gravitar's Cascades can't even play alongside those who build to have an obscenely high 20k+ Max Health. The new lair shouldn't be focusing on numbers, but rather coordination between its team. And it's somewhat hard to do that against unavoidable attacks that consume well over the amount of Max HP some players stick with.
Most of my beef is with Gravitar's unfairness as a boss, I will admit... even though that's getting changed in the lair. But it brings up a pretty important point to me. I like fighting Gravitar and her randomness, I just hate how she doesn't require much thought and instead is just a tank-n-spank boss. If you don't have some sort of survivability on you, you're likely dead. That's all. You're being punished for playing a specific type of character, rather than being punished for missing a telegraph or being unable to find the right thing to interact with. To me, that doesn't seem right at all.
Adjustments to health and how to gain it would help, but we also need mechanics changes so the game isn't unfair. I choose spend my time running around with just 5k HP, but that doesn't mean I should be punished for it at random intervals. "Be the hero you want to be", not the hero you're being pushed to be. Nobody should be forced to become a supertank just to enjoy content.
Oh I agree theres already too much trinity rigidity in Fire and Ice.
That isn't the point. The point is that with just 8k you CAN tank kenina. So fine, get your DPSer up to 8k and tank em. However, a base of 8k would mean that without any investment towards it, just with the base hp you can take keninas attacks all day - in fact everyone will be able too to varying degrees. There is something to be said for not getting flattened easily, but you don't want people with durable builds to look at players using a Targeting Computer passive with base HP being just fine. Those defensive builds wonder, "Well geez, what the heck did I put all those stats in defense for then?!" So yeah 8k is just too high.
If someone with a durable build is looking at someone with 8K and targeting computer tanking FROSTICUS, then they probably need to report someone for hacking. That's really the only thing a tank would be batting an eye at and getting the urge to say "dey tuk ar jerbs" about. I don't think any player with a durable build is going to look at someone tanking kenina and feel like their existence is somehow less meaningful for it. "Kenina Tank" isn't really some great title that tanks strive for.
It isn't an issue of having your "role" invalidated (Why are you guys so hung up on roles?) but that worrying about defense and durability becomes a non issue because everyone is decently durable. In other words - it makes content too easy even at just base health, so just focus on dps since you aren't going to die much anyways.
Decently durable and tanking frosticus are two different neighborhoods. Folks getting a few more hit points won't make defense a non-issue, since defense effectively multiplies hit points. Quite frankly, "so just focus on dps" should be a valid choice, instead of "so just focus on dps... if you want to constantly get flattened". There is still enough damage floating around that getting even more than base hit points and defense will still be valuable - it just won't be required. Think of it as the difference between:
"Hi, I have base HP and defense only... I have to spend a lot of time blocking and stuff to make sure I stay up, and have to rely on various defensive tactics and heals. If I don't do this well, I'll get smooshed."
and
"Hi, I invested in Con and Defense, I can go buck wild and face tank things while swinging my fists around like a crazy person. I don't have to worry about being careful because I'm an unstoppable tank - occasionally I have to block when something really huge comes at me... you know, the kind of thing where that other guy scrambles to get out of the way. I'm gonna flex my pecs now. Yeah... yeah you like that don't you? ... yeah you do."
The only thing we're getting rid of is this guy:
"Hi, I made a true glass cannon so I spend the majority of a lot of fights licking the pavement. Do you need to know some pavement facts? I know a lot of pavement facts... mostly about how it smells and tastes. No? ...okay then, well I guess I'll... oh... oh nevermind, a big attack hit me, time to lay down again. If you see a rezzer point them in my direction okay?"
Right but what bluhman is saying is this isn't intended to balance survival to current content, his numbers are based off survival in the new lair, and what seems to be shaping up as FUTURE content. He's suggesting this in order to make said future content easier to balance.
Existing content can always be adjusted, same as future content, but we should be looking at how to make said future content easier to balance for a wider variety of build types.
I don't think it is about balancing future or past content, it is just about closing the huge gap between those with Con and those without it, while still making Con a worthwhile stat that noticeably makes you more durable.The entire game's content isn't going to get a balancing pass just because of adjustments to Con.
Right but what bluhman is saying is this isn't intended to balance survival to current content, his numbers are based off survival in the new lair, and what seems to be shaping up as FUTURE content. He's suggesting this in order to make said future content easier to balance.
Existing content can always be adjusted, same as future content, but we should be looking at how to make said future content easier to balance for a wider variety of build types.
I don't think it is about balancing future or past content, it is just about closing the huge gap between those with Con and those without it, while still making Con a worthwhile stat that noticeably makes you more durable.The entire game's content isn't going to get a balancing pass just because of adjustments to Con.
Missing the point again. Adjusting HP disparity in turn makes future content easier to balance in terms of numbers.
You are neglecting the consequence - it affects the balance of all previous content which in reality will not be rebalanced for the adjusted Con. Either way, I wasn't missing the point, the issue was that Foxi said glass cannons would benefit from not getting squashed all the time, I said that they were by nature going to get squashed a lot. I don't think bluhman is proposing this based on future or pass content, just on the obviousness of HP disparity and how to fix it in general. My previous comments have already stated that I think this is very important for balancing future content - it just wasn't relevant to restate that in regards to what foxi said.
You are neglecting the consequence - it affects the balance of all previous content
But all previous content is NOT balanced, that's the problem. It heavily favors high HP and high Defense builds. That's why CON stacking is a necessity for late game content, not an option.
We may as well compose a list of content that CON-less builds cannot do (at least without dying dozens of times).
Rampages
PVP
Elite difficulty Adventure Packs
Fighting Onslaught Villains
Some world events like Mechanon
Right now the only thing CON-less builds are best at are Costume Contests, because they spend more time staring at their costumes and not fighting.
You are neglecting the consequence - it affects the balance of all previous content
But all previous content is NOT balanced, that's the problem. It heavily favors high HP and high Defense builds. That's why CON stacking is a necessity for late game content, not an option.
We may as well compose a list of content that CON-less builds cannot do (at least without dying dozens of times).
Rampages
PVP
Elite difficulty Adventure Packs
Fighting Onslaught Villains
Some world events like Mechanon
Right now the only thing CON-less builds are best at are Costume Contests, because they spend more time staring at their costumes and not fighting.
I wasn't going to reply to this because I really shouldn't need to since I don't disagree with anything you said, but just for the sake of clarity:
I agree with all of that, the only difference in my opinion compared to some others was that 8k was TOO high. 6.5 or 7k is a much more reasonable number and with a raise of 10-8 hp on Con points. Gears give health, mods give health, specs increase health, you don't need a base of 8k to be able to do any of those things listed - it is just CONVENIENT for those glass cannons who want to put all their stats into dps instead of having to consider durability .
The remark about considering how it affects all existing content just as much as considering future balancing is just in regards to the fact that you don't want to BUFF up people for harder future content. The goal should just be to make HP disparity not so severe. This will naturally make older content easier (with a base HP increase), but there is a medium and it should kept in mind that too large of an increase will make older content trivial as most of it is already fairly easy.
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almost a 40%a 63.9% increase in base health. There is no content that is going to be challenging and no reason not to just play for DPS since everyone will have ample amounts of health without having to invest anything into getting it.I think Ego Surge should scale with Ego instead of Con. Because you know, it's in the name. EGO Surge, not Con Surge. That and the scaling definitely needs some toning down anyway. Buuut, that's a bit off topic.
I think 6500/10 is probably the way to go here. It's a good balance of boosting the Base Health and Con to Health scaling. I took a look at 7200/8 and 6000/12 and I think that they may be good candidates as well.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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As for your bolded point, that really is the takehome here, because aside from minutae of how exactly this should be scaled, basically everyone posting agrees that base HP goes up, and CON benefit goes down.
How about using a soft cap on CON instead, ~300-400 Super stats, that way you would keep tanks somewhat ahead when it comes to their role and discourage single stating CON, either that or personally maybe 6K Base and 10HP per 1 CON point could work, would bring down those 20K HP Tanks to 15/16K, if I did the math right. O.-.o
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Future content may warrant a higher durability (such as more HP) but I think that could be solved in other ways, such as builds trading off DPS for more defense. And alternative and much more prefered solution would be the increase of base HP to even higher numbers (8K or more) and the buffing of all health and damage for enemies in the game. I think this would give healers and CC players more leeway to do their thing.
But in the end it will continue to stay tricky to balance all that tank/dps stuff. On my PA tank build I didn't take CON (since PA is just to energy hungry and I wanted ok ish dps), so that put me at about 8k health in tank role, and with about 150% resistance from invulnerability, defense and phalanx adv on energy shield. Now when I play my healer with AoRP she gives the rest of the team a 138% resistance bonus. So all in all my PA tank teamed with a healer with the Seraphim passive, is very close in survivability against bosses compared to a dps build with 8k health that is teamed up with a AoRP healer.
42 40s, LTSer.
I do agree that base hp must be more, that will help most of dedicated dps builds and most ATs, but nerfing Tanks is not the way to deal with this problem
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
it is definitely too good at the moment, but the level of adjustment you propose is .. a bit much.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This is pretty much the case. We shouldn't be restricting players because of their survivability, or lack thereof. The incoming content is supposed to promote coordination between the team, and that doesn't exactly work all that well when players whose builds restrict them from having durability to fend off something as random as Gravitar's Cascades can't even play alongside those who build to have an obscenely high 20k+ Max Health. The new lair shouldn't be focusing on numbers, but rather coordination between its team. And it's somewhat hard to do that against unavoidable attacks that consume well over the amount of Max HP some players stick with.
Most of my beef is with Gravitar's unfairness as a boss, I will admit... even though that's getting changed in the lair. But it brings up a pretty important point to me. I like fighting Gravitar and her randomness, I just hate how she doesn't require much thought and instead is just a tank-n-spank boss. If you don't have some sort of survivability on you, you're likely dead. That's all. You're being punished for playing a specific type of character, rather than being punished for missing a telegraph or being unable to find the right thing to interact with. To me, that doesn't seem right at all.
Adjustments to health and how to gain it would help, but we also need mechanics changes so the game isn't unfair. I choose spend my time running around with just 5k HP, but that doesn't mean I should be punished for it at random intervals. "Be the hero you want to be", not the hero you're being pushed to be. Nobody should be forced to become a supertank just to enjoy content.
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"Hi, I have base HP and defense only... I have to spend a lot of time blocking and stuff to make sure I stay up, and have to rely on various defensive tactics and heals. If I don't do this well, I'll get smooshed."
and
"Hi, I invested in Con and Defense, I can go buck wild and face tank things while swinging my fists around like a crazy person. I don't have to worry about being careful because I'm an unstoppable tank - occasionally I have to block when something really huge comes at me... you know, the kind of thing where that other guy scrambles to get out of the way. I'm gonna flex my pecs now. Yeah... yeah you like that don't you? ... yeah you do."
The only thing we're getting rid of is this guy:
"Hi, I made a true glass cannon so I spend the majority of a lot of fights licking the pavement. Do you need to know some pavement facts? I know a lot of pavement facts... mostly about how it smells and tastes. No? ...okay then, well I guess I'll... oh... oh nevermind, a big attack hit me, time to lay down again. If you see a rezzer point them in my direction okay?"
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I don't think it is about balancing future or past content, it is just about closing the huge gap between those with Con and those without it, while still making Con a worthwhile stat that noticeably makes you more durable.The entire game's content isn't going to get a balancing pass just because of adjustments to Con.
Either way, I wasn't missing the point, the issue was that Foxi said glass cannons would benefit from not getting squashed all the time, I said that they were by nature going to get squashed a lot. I don't think bluhman is proposing this based on future or pass content, just on the obviousness of HP disparity and how to fix it in general. My previous comments have already stated that I think this is very important for balancing future content - it just wasn't relevant to restate that in regards to what foxi said.
Namely, that she is concrete sniffer.
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
We may as well compose a list of content that CON-less builds cannot do (at least without dying dozens of times).
- Rampages
- PVP
- Elite difficulty Adventure Packs
- Fighting Onslaught Villains
- Some world events like Mechanon
Right now the only thing CON-less builds are best at are Costume Contests, because they spend more time staring at their costumes and not fighting.I agree with all of that, the only difference in my opinion compared to some others was that 8k was TOO high. 6.5 or 7k is a much more reasonable number and with a raise of 10-8 hp on Con points. Gears give health, mods give health, specs increase health, you don't need a base of 8k to be able to do any of those things listed - it is just CONVENIENT for those glass cannons who want to put all their stats into dps instead of having to consider durability .
The remark about considering how it affects all existing content just as much as considering future balancing is just in regards to the fact that you don't want to BUFF up people for harder future content. The goal should just be to make HP disparity not so severe. This will naturally make older content easier (with a base HP increase), but there is a medium and it should kept in mind that too large of an increase will make older content trivial as most of it is already fairly easy.