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CHAMPIONS ONLINE: STATE OF THE GAME - 10/29/15

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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User


    hatepwe said:

    Heck City of Heroes had.

    That's where that sentence should stop.

    photo Its a stiff.png

    photo it has ceased to be.png


    Why is that every time CoH or CoV is brought up in a sentence people on the forums react in this manner?(general question), just curious.

    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Mainly, and personally, because we know what CoH or CoV "had" and we're (I'm) not interested. This game was never meant to be CoH, and it gets compared to CoH all the time. "CoH had this, CoH had that, CoH was this, CoH was that." Well, to be succinct, if this game had this, that and was this and that, it's not a game I would like. I found that game really boring, with not a whole lot of stuff to like about it, so usually when people tell me that this game should be more like CoH or when they mention that CoH had this or that, I tend to tune it out, because why would I want features in this game that I like so much, from a game that bored me so much?

    We get tired of it. We know a lot of people liked CoH, and that's fine, but we shouldn't feel like apologizing that this is their "last resort" game and that it's not enough like their game. We're tired of hearing "As soon as CoH comes back or X game launches, I'm done with this piece of **** game forever."

    We get it. Champions isn't exactly like CoH. That's why we picked it.
    biffsig.jpg
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Why is that every time CoH or CoV is brought up in a sentence people on the forums react in this manner?(general question), just curious.

    Probably because people are tired of hearing about it and the many people that act like CoH was the victim of a vast conspiracy, instead of the mismanagement of the people in charge that sank it that ended it's life tragically. And instead of wanting to make a good super hero game, people want to go back into the way back machine to a time when "good game play" was evidently the same four maps repeated in a different order with a text box to it instead of involving game play.

    Many of us here have fond memories of CoH, or CoV in my case, but it gets tiring listening to people put up make belief facts about the game that, in the end, just weren't true.​​
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    And let me add an addendum to that;

    A large portion of Champions players welcomed the City of refugees to this game quite warmly, despite a large number of City of players had intentionally and with malice started hate campaigns against this game on review sites, on public forums and even had a thread dedicated to bashing Champions on their own forum. And this was not some random set of malice, this was malice that was intentional since Champions was in pre-alpha, with people falsely claiming that Cryptic was trying to recruit people through the City of forums, which turns out, was one casual conversation and any other claims were false accusations admitted to at the time by the community manager on the Paragon forums.

    And let's not forget that a large number of people in the beta had already threatened to never buy Champions to begin with despite they kept making assertions that Champions needed to be more like City of during the beta. And no it wasn't because of bad game play, it was because of the City of perception and consistent hate mongering of Jack Emmeret (aka Statesman) that still persists to this day. Hell, I remember when Paragon swapped over to their new forums and as a result Statesman account was inadvertently banned. A couple hundred page thread of whooping and cheering started over that one to, like a bunch of children, and yet we still accepted you people. And why did people hate on Jack? Because he took responsibility for Enhancement Diversification and took the blame away from the devs, yep he's a monster.

    I personally had my forum count set to 50 posts per page, and the direct, moderator authorized hate Champions thread that was put up and it had over a thousand pages, a lot of it from people just hating on the game just to hate on it with friend of a friend information as the best thing offered. How bitter and resentful and disgusting the CoH player base got towards insulting fellow super hero gamers, this supposedly more mature community dedicating themselves to bashing anything not City of. And yet Champions players still accepted you with open arms.

    And let's not forget when it came to new reviews even to this day, for Champions, there can at least be counted on several people who will blatantly say, "I hope Champions dies soon, because City of was better," or any form of rhetoric along those lines. Despite that every time a review came up it was always a City of fan coming in and saying "Champions will be dead soon and City of will still be here" and despite that Champions still took you in and welcomed you with open arms.

    And then of course the big shocker to find that City of was closing down. Most people were just as shocked as City of players to find this out. And yet, all sorts of blame was being levied by City of players. For the first few days, there was even blame being thrown at Cryptic for secretly pulling the license of the Cryptic engine and the hate exploded against Cryptic and Champions in general. Even though it's been debunked there are still people who post that up as a fact. Just like people want to post up as a fact that NCSoft hated American's and closed City of out of spite and just hates money, and not that it was being poorly managed by Paragon and they drove the game into deep debt with an expansion that bombed and a costly F2P conversion update.

    And despite all that, we welcomed the refugees and even felt sorry for them they lost their beloved gem that they thought was untouchable and that would last forever. We tried to help many of them along, but we still got spat in our faces for our efforts, because of course, the ultimate insult we don't know how it feels though a number of us have seen beloved games closed down and the fact City of players pretend they are the only ones who truly cared about their game and all the games that got shut down before those people didn't care at all, is just an insult and to many of us leaves a bitter taste in our mouth at how a once community that use to be considered so great and warm, understanding, and accepting, acts no different, and many cases worse, than the rest of the internet.

    It's sad City of is gone, genuinely, some of us feel that at least there should be a memorial to it in Champions. After all it was Cryptic's baby once, and Champions did inspire the City of Heroes setting, regardless of what people may believe. But City of players become intolerable with their incessant hate speeches and bashing of the Champions, because they would rather burn it instead of actually helping it become the super hero game we all want.​​
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  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User

    The hostile attitude has been well-earned by the CoXers who can't let it go by this point. I can remember when the refugees came in, and were welcomed with open arms back in '12. The noisy minority of them that remain have been working to instill this 'hostility' to the games in us since soon after.

    What about the quiet majority of us former CoX players that like CO but are more than a little tired of being insulted? The open arms back in 2012 was why I originally came here but nowadays I don't see much of that goodwill in the forums. I feel there's plenty of things from CoX that could improve CO but I also feel there's tons of things from CO that are major innovations over CoX. But...we can't really have those conversations because things will devolve.

    EDIT: Silverspar just posted. That's...unfortunate. I think both games benefited from both being around at the same time (because it was actual competition) but I'll admit that there a disappointingly high amount of hate for CO on the CoX forums. It's saddening that those of us not involved have to suffer from the longstanding ill will. Sins of the father and all that.

    As far as Jack Emmeret, I remember some people having other issues with him separate from ED (which was before my time) though some comments sounded like Jack simply didn't know how to word things properly for what he meant.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    zamuelpwe wrote: »
    The hostile attitude has been well-earned by the CoXers who can't let it go by this point. I can remember when the refugees came in, and were welcomed with open arms back in '12. The noisy minority of them that remain have been working to instill this 'hostility' to the games in us since soon after.

    What about the quiet majority of us former CoX players that like CO but are more than a little tired of being insulted? The open arms back in 2012 was why I originally came here but nowadays I don't see much of that goodwill in the forums. I feel there's plenty of things from CoX that could improve CO but I also feel there's tons of things from CO that are major innovations over CoX. But...we can't really have those conversations because things will devolve.

    EDIT: Silverspar just posted. That's...unfortunate. I think both games benefited from both being around at the same time (because it was actual competition) but I'll admit that there a disappointingly high amount of hate for CO on the CoX forums. It's saddening that those of us not involved have to suffer from the longstanding ill will. Sins of the father and all that.

    As far as Jack Emmeret, I remember some people having other issues with him separate from ED (which was before my time) though some comments sounded like Jack simply didn't know how to word things properly for what he meant.

    I would agree with you @zamuelpwe if it wasn't for the fact if I go to the dedicated CoX channel nine times out of ten there is a group of someone's already starting another bash on champions about how it is not CoX. It's tiring, it's old, and every time I've pointed out the actual facts they deny it and say that's not how it happened.

    Champions players really wanted to help CoX, but this is proof positive of how a bunch of bad apples can spoil the bunch, because it's not just a few people. Champions is under regular attack like this regularly because it is not City of.​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    Zam, there are former CoX players, and then there are the CoX bittervets who hate CO simply because it exists and their imaginary Shangri-La doesn't. (No, guys, I played CoX, and it wasn't nearly as good as your memory paints it, okay?)

    My patience finally wore thin about a year after the closing, when someone told me in Chat that there was nothing CO did better than CoX. I pointed out that CO was at least superior at continuing to exist, to which he replied, "That's not better." Huh?
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User

    And let me add an addendum to that;



    A large portion of Champions players welcomed the City of refugees to this game quite warmly, despite a large number of City of players had intentionally and with malice started hate campaigns against this game on review sites, on public forums and even had a thread dedicated to bashing Champions on their own forum. And this was not some random set of malice, this was malice that was intentional since Champions was in pre-alpha, with people falsely claiming that Cryptic was trying to recruit people through the City of forums, which turns out, was one casual conversation and any other claims were false accusations admitted to at the time by the community manager on the Paragon forums.



    And let's not forget that a large number of people in the beta had already threatened to never buy Champions to begin with despite they kept making assertions that Champions needed to be more like City of during the beta. And no it wasn't because of bad game play, it was because of the City of perception and consistent hate mongering of Jack Emmeret (aka Statesman) that still persists to this day. Hell, I remember when Paragon swapped over to their new forums and as a result Statesman account was inadvertently banned. A couple hundred page thread of whooping and cheering started over that one to, like a bunch of children, and yet we still accepted you people. And why did people hate on Jack? Because he took responsibility for Enhancement Diversification and took the blame away from the devs, yep he's a monster.



    I personally had my forum count set to 50 posts per page, and the direct, moderator authorized hate Champions thread that was put up and it had over a thousand pages, a lot of it from people just hating on the game just to hate on it with friend of a friend information as the best thing offered. How bitter and resentful and disgusting the CoH player base got towards insulting fellow super hero gamers, this supposedly more mature community dedicating themselves to bashing anything not City of. And yet Champions players still accepted you with open arms.



    And let's not forget when it came to new reviews even to this day, for Champions, there can at least be counted on several people who will blatantly say, "I hope Champions dies soon, because City of was better," or any form of rhetoric along those lines. Despite that every time a review came up it was always a City of fan coming in and saying "Champions will be dead soon and City of will still be here" and despite that Champions still took you in and welcomed you with open arms.



    And then of course the big shocker to find that City of was closing down. Most people were just as shocked as City of players to find this out. And yet, all sorts of blame was being levied by City of players. For the first few days, there was even blame being thrown at Cryptic for secretly pulling the license of the Cryptic engine and the hate exploded against Cryptic and Champions in general. Even though it's been debunked there are still people who post that up as a fact. Just like people want to post up as a fact that NCSoft hated American's and closed City of out of spite and just hates money, and not that it was being poorly managed by Paragon and they drove the game into deep debt with an expansion that bombed and a costly F2P conversion update.



    And despite all that, we welcomed the refugees and even felt sorry for them they lost their beloved gem that they thought was untouchable and that would last forever. We tried to help many of them along, but we still got spat in our faces for our efforts, because of course, the ultimate insult we don't know how it feels though a number of us have seen beloved games closed down and the fact City of players pretend they are the only ones who truly cared about their game and all the games that got shut down before those people didn't care at all, is just an insult and to many of us leaves a bitter taste in our mouth at how a once community that use to be considered so great and warm, understanding, and accepting, acts no different, and many cases worse, than the rest of the internet.



    It's sad City of is gone, genuinely, some of us feel that at least there should be a memorial to it in Champions. After all it was Cryptic's baby once, and Champions did inspire the City of Heroes setting, regardless of what people may believe. But City of players become intolerable with their incessant hate speeches and bashing of the Champions, because they would rather burn it instead of actually helping it become the super hero game we all want.​​

    Actually no, the hate towards Jack stems from the fact that he was trying to force his beliefs of a "fun" game on the players(and not through ED, personally I didn't care about pre-ED to post-ED..IOs helped greatly :D), now, I don't exactly remember all that was said as back when I started playing('06) I didn't care, but there were multiple accounts of this.
    Also, in regards to the mega hate post on CO, -that- I can't argue against as being false, though, the moderators did not support it, at all. In fact, they told the posters on multiple occasions to cease, and even went as far as to ban posters who were more vocal. Also, I do recall that it was taken down hastily, as one day, before I logged on it was locked(?), and when I logged off later that day, it was completely gone.
    And as far as that expansion goes? Yeah, no, it didn't bomb. at all. In fact, it was very well recieved, as it revolutionized the game in a way that had not been done by any MMO before(side-switching and whatnot): Paragon Studio management was pretty decent(constant updates to the game and whatnot), also, I'm pretty sure it was NCSoft that wanted to go FTP(not 100% sure, mind you.) Also, a group of loud mouth idiot CoH refugees does not in any way show the true CoH community(it's like saying CO's community was bigoted due to how back in '09 some people who were awaiting the launch of CO and saying how it would shut CoH down in the first few weeks/years).



    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    xcel, it's from the former Paragon devs themselves that we get word that CoV was pretty much a flop - it paid for itself (barely), but apparently that was mostly because people bought it for the supergroup bases, then went back to playing hero-side. The issues with the villain side have been plentifully charted by people with far more experience at CoV than I...
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  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    I believe that Going Rogue did well (the devs were shocked at the game closing) but the devs actively commented that CoV was subpar in numbers. It had a bit of a negative loop where fewer players meant less development which in turn led to fewer players. Superhero MMOs just aren't designed for two factions since I believe DCUO also has drastically fewer villains to heroes.

    I would agree with you @zamuelpwe if it wasn't for the fact if I go to the dedicated CoX channel nine times out of ten there is a group of someone's already starting another bash on champions about how it is not CoX. It's tiring, it's old, and every time I've pointed out the actual facts they deny it and say that's not how it happened.



    Champions players really wanted to help CoX, but this is proof positive of how a bunch of bad apples can spoil the bunch, because it's not just a few people. Champions is under regular attack like this regularly because it is not City of.??

    I think it's the disappointing problem of cooler heads not prevailing. People get a little too much breathing room to rant. From being more regular on that channel, I see a lot of those complaints. Some are raw hate while others are poorly worded but otherwise valid comments. CO has problems with crowd control so I can easily see people being a bit miffed that their characters feel substandard compared to the CC heavy CoX. Melee has weird problems here (which I keep meaning to start a discussion about). Still, I do see compliments. Some players you just have to ignore or rerail. I've seen a fair bit of positivity about the recent event and the new team. Also, I tend to forget you, Brou, and a few others have access to the channel due to how rare it is seeing you there.
    jonsills said:

    My patience finally wore thin about a year after the closing, when someone told me in Chat that there was nothing CO did better than CoX. I pointed out that CO was at least superior at continuing to exist, to which he replied, "That's not better." Huh?

    I find this hilarious (in a sad kind of way) since I remember the one time the CoX forum grudgingly gave CO props for something it did better. Actually prompted the devs to fix something.
    "Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."

    -Sterga
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    It's sad City of is gone, genuinely, some of us feel that at least there should be a memorial to it in Champions. After all it was Cryptic's baby once, and Champions did inspire the City of Heroes setting, regardless of what people may believe. But City of players become intolerable with their incessant hate speeches and bashing of the Champions, because they would rather burn it instead of actually helping it become the super hero game we all want.
    Actually no, the hate towards Jack stems from the fact that he was trying to force his beliefs of a "fun" game on the players(and not through ED, personally I didn't care about pre-ED to post-ED..IOs helped greatly :D), now, I don't exactly remember all that was said as back when I started playing('06) I didn't care, but there were multiple accounts of this.
    Also, in regards to the mega hate post on CO, -that- I can't argue against as being false, though, the moderators did not support it, at all. In fact, they told the posters on multiple occasions to cease, and even went as far as to ban posters who were more vocal. Also, I do recall that it was taken down hastily, as one day, before I logged on it was locked(?), and when I logged off later that day, it was completely gone.
    And as far as that expansion goes? Yeah, no, it didn't bomb. at all. In fact, it was very well recieved, as it revolutionized the game in a way that had not been done by any MMO before(side-switching and whatnot): Paragon Studio management was pretty decent(constant updates to the game and whatnot), also, I'm pretty sure it was NCSoft that wanted to go FTP(not 100% sure, mind you.) Also, a group of loud mouth idiot CoH refugees does not in any way show the true CoH community(it's like saying CO's community was bigoted due to how back in '09 some people who were awaiting the launch of CO and saying how it would shut CoH down in the first few weeks/years).

    Actually it did bomb, because it didn't make back the money that was spent on it. And the people that bought it were only those veterans to CoH, the amount of new blood to the game was marginal at best, and even NCSoft and Paragon themselves said the sales were disappointing. Disappointing is not a word used to describe good sales.

    And yea, people are always on about that but when I actually read what was said and not the quote taken out of context, it just stems from the fact people want to hate to just hate.

    And your point about bigotted posts of how CO would shut CoH down, with which was truly a few people versus the multitude of posts, constant zone chat yammering and dedicated CoX channels, and post after post on public forums and news review sites that are still on and on and on about how Champions is going to shut down any day now or that CoX was always superior.

    And management of a game means both financially as update wise. This is the part many CoH people tend to stick their fingers in their ears on. The F2P update was a last ditch effort to save the game even back then, because it still had not recouped the losses of Going Rogue. The devs might have been good people with good intentions but there is a lot people miss in the fact the only excuse, the only excuse that they have is that NCSoft just hates America, despite a business that is about making money must obviously hate money then because they hated American's so much that they just wanted to shutter the game down, because people that don't understand how financing works always point to the income CoH made but never bothered to look in to how much it cost to keep that development or studio open, or the cost that Going Rogue incurred, or the F2P conversion or any of the massive number of developers they had. It was always a grand conspiracy.​​
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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    jonsills said:

    My patience finally wore thin about a year after the closing, when someone told me in Chat that there was nothing CO did better than CoX. I pointed out that CO was at least superior at continuing to exist, to which he replied, "That's not better." Huh?

    Jonsills, while the person CoHer in question wasn't very accurate in saying what he said, in no way were you. That comment is another reason why actual vets of CoH(not last-minute-joining whiners that constantly take any potshot at CO they can) are abit..withdrawn about getting more involved in the community.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    jonsills said:

    xcel, it's from the former Paragon devs themselves that we get word that CoV was pretty much a flop - it paid for itself (barely), but apparently that was mostly because people bought it for the supergroup bases, then went back to playing hero-side. The issues with the villain side have been plentifully charted by people with far more experience at CoV than I...

    I don't see how Going Rogue is City of Villains but ok... :o
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User


    jonsills said:

    My patience finally wore thin about a year after the closing, when someone told me in Chat that there was nothing CO did better than CoX. I pointed out that CO was at least superior at continuing to exist, to which he replied, "That's not better." Huh?

    Jonsills, while the person CoHer in question wasn't very accurate in saying what he said, in no way were you. That comment is another reason why actual vets of CoH(not last-minute-joining whiners that constantly take any potshot at CO they can) are abit..withdrawn about getting more involved in the community.
    I was inaccurate? So you're saying that CO's nonexistence would be preferable to its existence? Because that was his contention - that CoX was superior at even being online, a year after NCSoft pulled the plug.

    So first off, guy's gotta take an obviously-humorous comment seriously, and then he's gotta double down by hating on the very game he's playing. And thus my headshake and loss of patience. And every day, some bittervet has to wear at it a little bit more, by declaring that NCSoft will suddenly bring back CoH, or sell the license to someone else (a move they've shown no interest in for three years and counting), and the revival of their beloved game will suddenly kill CO. (Okay, not literally every day, and it's been dwindling a bit over the past six months or so, but you know what I mean.)
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    jonsills wrote: »
    (a move they've shown no interest in for three years and counting)

    Believe it or not, NCSoft had (key word had) interest in selling, but no one was willing to take on the debt CoH had as well as paying for it. Despite what the bitter vets tend to spout, there was no grand conspiracy.​​
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  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    I am happy that there are so many people playing CO that we have the luxury to alienate CoX vets. The game must be doing pretty well this days. :*

    I know comparisons tends to be hurtful. I am not delusional in thinking that CoX closed because some conspiracy. The age and competition got CoX. However, the survival of CO does not mean that it is much better. Low cost of operation and PR are the reasons of that survival.

    The development last 2 years have been really scarce. I hope this SoTG marks a turning point but I am not expecting anything different. Imho, CO has already passed the point of return, but I sincerely hope somebody prove me wrong.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User


    No, I just pointed out your reading comprehension is as competent as always and your skill at hyperbolic mangling of others positions when they trump your own ability to counter them objectively or counteract your myopic worldview remains fully intact.

    Cheers, Spin-to-Lose. Back to your toybox now.

    So then you don't deny that you said all "power fantasy" stuff. Works for me.

    See Jon, he did say that stuff, my logic was spot on.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    And it's exactly that sort of negativity that we're all so tired of.

    ^ a good, quality, ironic statement.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    jonsills said:


    jonsills said:

    My patience finally wore thin about a year after the closing, when someone told me in Chat that there was nothing CO did better than CoX. I pointed out that CO was at least superior at continuing to exist, to which he replied, "That's not better." Huh?

    Jonsills, while the person CoHer in question wasn't very accurate in saying what he said, in no way were you. That comment is another reason why actual vets of CoH(not last-minute-joining whiners that constantly take any potshot at CO they can) are abit..withdrawn about getting more involved in the community.
    I was inaccurate? So you're saying that CO's nonexistence would be preferable to its existence? Because that was his contention - that CoX was superior at even being online, a year after NCSoft pulled the plug.

    So first off, guy's gotta take an obviously-humorous comment seriously, and then he's gotta double down by hating on the very game he's playing. And thus my headshake and loss of patience. And every day, some bittervet has to wear at it a little bit more, by declaring that NCSoft will suddenly bring back CoH, or sell the license to someone else (a move they've shown no interest in for three years and counting), and the revival of their beloved game will suddenly kill CO. (Okay, not literally every day, and it's been dwindling a bit over the past six months or so, but you know what I mean.)
    Err, sorry, didn't mean to say inaccurate..more like, well..kinda rude and snarky, and from what your saying then yeah, that CoHer..Kinda didn't make sense? I mean, superior at being online..what even..? Anyway, that aside. NCSoft actually -was- interested(and is) in selling CoH, and would have done so pre-shutdown had some hot heads at Paragon Studios not messed it up. Currently they are working with THeM to work out license transfer business stuffs :P.(They actually, when approached about selling, were the ones to actually -propose- selling of i23 in maintenance mode, of which I thought really neat :>).


    Personally, I honestly feel it most definitely will return, but it won't kill any games in the process, as it will just be CoH i23 in maintenance mode(well, until APR gets made, but that won't kill any games either). I personally plan on getting a LTS to CO after I get one to CoH(assuming that'll be possible :P) to support both, as I've met some kind people in CO.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited November 2015


    Err, sorry, didn't mean to say inaccurate..more like, well..kinda rude and snarky, and from what your saying then yeah, that CoHer..Kinda didn't make sense? I mean, superior at being online..what even..? Anyway, that aside. NCSoft actually -was- interested(and is) in selling CoH, and would have done so pre-shutdown had some hot heads at Paragon Studios not messed it up. Currently they are working with THeM to work out license transfer business stuffs :P.(They actually, when approached about selling, were the ones to actually -propose- selling of i23 in maintenance mode, of which I thought really neat :>).


    Personally, I honestly feel it most definitely will return, but it won't kill any games in the process, as it will just be CoH i23 in maintenance mode(well, until APR gets made, but that won't kill any games either). I personally plan on getting a LTS to CO after I get one to CoH(assuming that'll be possible :P) to support both, as I've met some kind people in CO.


    ok, i am going to have to request actual evidence on that one, because that sounds like a bunch of nonsense made up by co fanboys who want to cast paragon in a negative light. so please provide substantiation that nc was willing to sell but paragon screwed it up, because every bit of info i had was that it was ncsoft who would not accept any offers for it from paragon and thats how things died off before the second nc post that basically told us to piss off.

  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    i appreciate that they finally keep me logged in, but quoting really stinks now.


  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    rianfrost wrote: »
    Personally, I honestly feel it most definitely will return, but it won't kill any games in the process, as it will just be CoH i23 in maintenance mode(well, until APR gets made, but that won't kill any games either). I personally plan on getting a LTS to CO after I get one to CoH(assuming that'll be possible :P) to support both, as I've met some kind people in CO.

    I am still curious where the idea CoH is even coming back is coming from. No, really, Titan Network has been saying it will be coming back in the next few months or a deal was almost brokered for the past three years. And if a deal had been brokered I would think news sites would be flooded with this data. So where exactly is this coming from?​​
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  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    that part was his quote, i do not think ncsoft would ever allow it to come back on the principle that they cant admit that the decision to close it n the first place and not allow paragon to purchase the i.p was rash. im assuming he was going by the seemingly stalled efforts by the one player to get the rights from ncsoft and bring the past game back up. I haven't been following much lately but given how long has elapsed from the last update, one can assume that ncsoft decided not to go any further with it.
    that said, i'm not sure news site would be flooded since it was a niche game. apb, hellgate and dream of mirror online all came back in the u.s ,and istaria has changed hands at least 3 times, and nobody heard a peep, not sure news sites care much about the smaller tier games.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    rianfrost wrote: »
    that part was his quote, i do not think ncsoft would ever allow it to come back on the principle that they cant admit that the decision to close it n the first place and not allow paragon to purchase the i.p was rash. im assuming he was going by the seemingly stalled efforts by the one player to get the rights from ncsoft and bring the past game back up. I haven't been following much lately but given how long has elapsed from the last update, one can assume that ncsoft decided not to go any further with it.
    that said, i'm not sure news site would be flooded since it was a niche game. apb, hellgate and dream of mirror online all came back in the u.s ,and istaria has changed hands at least 3 times, and nobody heard a peep, not sure news sites care much about the smaller tier games.

    APB Reloaded was reported on by a few news sites when it was purchased by G1. Hellgate, it's been talked about as well, but it hasn't really been discussed in large MMO print since it's not really being pushed outside of the Asian market. Never heard of Dream of Mirror, to be honest, and Istaria or better known as Horizons, has pretty much fallen off the planet. But then agian I don't think Istaria's player base is even as big as COs.​​
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  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    istaria actually has a small but active core i still get their newsletter since i played back at launch, so actually id say they are pretty comparableto co, a tiny but dedicated group, but regardless i supposed it helps to quantify what we mean by "in the news". I doubt you would see it in the kotaku/polygon/ign group of sites with larger readerships, maybe smaller places like massively(EDIT: ok, apparently massively is dead, but the smaller mmo focused sites that still float around). so if we count smaller niche locations maybe they would mention it, but certainly would not bump into the larger news sites.

  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    rianfrost wrote: »
    istaria actually has a small but active core i still get their newsletter since i played back at launch, so actually id say they are pretty comparableto co, a tiny but dedicated group, but regardless i supposed it helps to quantify what we mean by "in the news". I doubt you would see it in the kotaku/polygon/ign group of sites with larger readerships, maybe smaller places like massively(EDIT: ok, apparently massively is dead, but the smaller mmo focused sites that still float around). so if we count smaller niche locations maybe they would mention it, but certainly would not bump into the larger news sites.

    I played Horizons when it was known as Horizons. I had a dragon. And even then the player base was not that large. One of Istaria's main issues is it tries to be a sandbox MMO, but it is very much a theme park without any of the theme park stuff. Not to mention a crafting and housing system that makes EVE Online look positively casual friendly. And considering how long it took them to make their biggest draw, the dragon race, actually comparable to every other race in that game...yea.

    I enjoyed what they attempted but honestly it was clear to me Horizons never had any big aspirations past the hope the player base would do the stuff for them. Especially since they were trying to go up against Dark Age of Camelot as the alternative PvP game in their promotions (HA!) and going to be the UO killer (HAHA!).​​
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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    rianfrost said:

    that part was his quote, i do not think ncsoft would ever allow it to come back on the principle that they cant admit that the decision to close it n the first place and not allow paragon to purchase the i.p was rash. im assuming he was going by the seemingly stalled efforts by the one player to get the rights from ncsoft and bring the past game back up. I haven't been following much lately but given how long has elapsed from the last update, one can assume that ncsoft decided not to go any further with it.
    that said, i'm not sure news site would be flooded since it was a niche game. apb, hellgate and dream of mirror online all came back in the u.s ,and istaria has changed hands at least 3 times, and nobody heard a peep, not sure news sites care much about the smaller tier games.

    http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9675.0.html
    and
    http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.0.html
    The first: by the person who suggested/started the effort(front page summarizes alot of what the reason for shutdown was)
    Second: Describes in the first page(maybe a bit more throughout the pages,) by the THeM itself.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    edited November 2015



    rianfrost wrote: »

    Personally, I honestly feel it most definitely will return, but it won't kill any games in the process, as it will just be CoH i23 in maintenance mode(well, until APR gets made, but that won't kill any games either). I personally plan on getting a LTS to CO after I get one to CoH(assuming that'll be possible :P) to support both, as I've met some kind people in CO.



    MMO sites have talked about it, but granted, NDAs are in place, so not too much will be open to discussion. A deal like CoH does not happen over night and has not been going on for 3 years, it's only been going on for one, granted, previous efforts have been attempted over the 3 years, but none have gotten this far. And over the course of a year, this deal has actually been going Pretty fast considering NC has never really done this before for one of their closed MMOs
    http://www.examiner.com/article/details-revealed-of-negotiations-for-city-of-heroes-return: I believe this discusses the deal abit before NDAs began cracking down on THeM(I can't find the MMORPG.com article about the deal, i'm sure it's listed somewhere in titan network :P)
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    Maybe take yer "CoX is coming back!" drama to a forum that is relevant to that topic and that believes it.

    It's boring and old hat.

    Move on.

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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    Oh, I see, so it's poppycock.​​
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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User

    Maybe take yer "CoX is coming back!" drama to a forum that is relevant to that topic and that believes it.

    It's boring and old hat.

    Move on.

    Wasn't really trying to start any drama, but ok?

    Oh, I see, so it's poppycock.​​

    Eh, believe what you want. You wanted to see where it's being discussed, I gave it to you. Still think it's dribble, fine.

    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

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  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    rianfrost said:

    i appreciate that they finally keep me logged in, but quoting really stinks now.


    I don't think it's too stable, as it sometimes won't make the qoute box, and instead will just add the quote to whatever i'm typing in the paragraph :|
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Let's get back on topic, folks.
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  • combatclown81combatclown81 Posts: 86 Arc User
    I just wish they would get it through their thick skulls that we don't really want any more lockboxes.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    I just wish they would get it through their thick skulls that we don't really want any more lockboxes.

    good luck convincing PWE of that... Cryptic might be able to be convinced, but PWE never will and will push for lockboxes of some kind to be included in the game endlessly.... There are some players on these forums who will argue that "because keys sell players must really want them"... that's really an inaccurate assessment... you wouldn't say that just because most people pay taxes that it means they really want to have taxes... most players see lockboxes in the same light... we buy keys because we feel like we have too, if lockbox items were put in the c-store at normal prices instead then I'm absolutely certain they would get more sales more often... but again convincing PWE (and some players) of this is an impossible task...​​
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    More like, "Because keys sell, the game is still running."

    They tried lots of stuff before they landed on the grab bags and then the keys. Not like the game was doing great; the game was a ghost town and then they went free-to-play. Keys sell big, they bring in a good amount of money, and the game stays afloat because of it.

    If you don't like to spend money on the game (also known as supporting the game) then farm up some gold. You can get just about anything you could get from lockboxes in the auction house.

    And before the whole "Well, SOMEONE had to spend that money to get the keys to open the lockboxes to put stuff on the auction house," argument comes up, remember that it's because of those people spending their own money however they want that the game is still running. I can't say that I have a problem with lockboxes and keys at all, let alone how others spend their money. The game gets supported, I buy stuff with in-game cash, what's not to like?
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User

    I still remain warm to any CoXer vets who remain - right until they start the CO hate, and I warn those doing it casually that it's not a great way to earn a welcome here.

    I feel for the good ones getting the heat, but it's like any idiot fringe - shut it up or it poisons the standing of those associated. Not fair, but that's human social nature. Any 'unfair' bitterness from the core community to the CoX refugee set has been well-earned by the idiot fringe.

    It's anuphill battle, and again, it's unfair, but that's why idiot fringes should be stomped silent.

    I'm a COH vet who remains.

    Both sides did some pretty idiotic things from the time of pre-CO's launch up until and continuing past COH's closing.

    Both games are different. There are some things COH did right like more constant updates (only because they actually had a dev team that wasn't punting off to other projects constantly) and a a better power customization system (IMO, but the sheer number of color variations was better in COH even if the overall power customization in CO is better) and there are some things CO does right: improved graphics, a queue system for instance missions, etc.

    I will say this, if CO had the level of support in its first years that COH had in its last few years, CO would be in a better place than it is now.

    Also I seriously doubt we will see COH ever return. We're more likely to see one of the new upstart games arrive in a playable state first.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User

    And it's exactly that sort of negativity that we're all so tired of.

    Except that's a negativity all earned by the various "keepers" of CO over the years, that has really nothing to do with COH or if someone is a bitter COH vet.

    This game has been neglected. FULL STOP.
    Anyone who does a few minutes of reading can find that out.

    Hopefully the SOTG (and Kaiserin's hiring--sorry if I mispelled her/his name!), and new MASSIVE patch on test points to a brighter future where we actually have content that can KEEP players around.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    raighn said:




    I just wish they would get it through their thick skulls that we don't really want any more lockboxes.


    good luck convincing PWE of that... Cryptic might be able to be convinced, but PWE never will and will push for lockboxes of some kind to be included in the game endlessly.... There are some players on these forums who will argue that "because keys sell players must really want them"... that's really an inaccurate assessment... you wouldn't say that just because most people pay taxes that it means they really want to have taxes... most players see lockboxes in the same light... we buy keys because we feel like we have too, if lockbox items were put in the c-store at normal prices instead then I'm absolutely certain they would get more sales more often... but again convincing PWE (and some players) of this is an impossible task...​​
    -------------------------
    If lockboxes continue to bring in sales they will keep doing it. Full stop.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    good luck convincing PWE of that... Cryptic might be able to be convinced, but PWE never will and will push for lockboxes of some kind to be included in the game endlessly.... There are some players on these forums who will argue that "because keys sell players must really want them"... that's really an inaccurate assessment... you wouldn't say that just because most people pay taxes that it means they really want to have taxes... most players see lockboxes in the same light... we buy keys because we feel like we have too, if lockbox items were put in the c-store at normal prices instead then I'm absolutely certain they would get more sales more often... but again convincing PWE (and some players) of this is an impossible task...​​

    --------------

    Uh, no. Tax evasion is a crime that gets you tossed into jail. You don't go to prison for not buying keys. You don't even have someone showing up at your door for a knee capping. In fact, nothing happens to you if you don't buy keys. If someone is buying keys, it's because they want to. No one is making them. If you feel like you have to buy keys, you have issues you need to work out because NO ONE is forcing you to except you.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    If lockboxes continue to bring in sales they will keep doing it. Full stop.

    I always found it ironic that CoH players hate lockboxes, but went gaga over CoH grab bags, spending hundreds on those at a time. Never understood this but whatever.​​
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  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    sterga wrote: »
    Uh, no. Tax evasion is a crime that gets you tossed into jail. You don't go to prison for not buying keys. You don't even have someone showing up at your door for a knee capping. In fact, nothing happens to you if you don't buy keys. If someone is buying keys, it's because they want to. No one is making them. If you feel like you have to buy keys, you have issues you need to work out because NO ONE is forcing you to except you.

    Please learn to understand Metaphor & Hyperbole. I'm not saying the two are identical, I used the hyperbolic metaphor of comparing taxes to keys to illustrate a point. Honestly, I have seen many many times on these forums where if anyone uses a metaphor they get bashed by comments like yours. I'm tired of it. And no, I will not just stop using metaphors either. I will continue to use them because it's the best way to convey a point.

    Regardless. Keys do feel forced. Am I saying someone is physically forcing me to? No, of course not. But the system's in place impose a form of psychological force on the player base. Some are more resistant to such tactics than others (I personally have only ever bought 3 keys, period). To head off your question of "what is forcing people to buy them", the answer is simple yet complex. The simple version "desire". Now you're bound to say "if you desire it how is it forced?" It's not the key that is desired, but rather the items in the chest or more specifically 1 or 2 of the items... It's a pretty classic case of a carrot on a stick. The contents of the lockbox are the carrot, dangled out in front of us constantly present and constantly taunting us. Lockboxes are a fairly common drop in the game so people build up large collections of them every time you get one your more and more likely to think "I need keys"... the more you think "I need keys" the less it feels as an optional thing. It's that idea of "need" that makes it a forced action, the system implements a psychological idea that we "need" keys and it reinforces that idea by handing us more and more lockboxes at a fairly high rate. Is anyone ever physically forced to buy keys? I would certainly hope not, but many are indeed psychologically forced to. And to claim that anyone who falls prey to such psychological force needs to seek help is a horrible thing to say. Even though I've only ever bought 3 keys, I still feel like the system is trying to force me to buy them. And I can assure you, I'm in no way the only one who feels this way.​​
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    raighn wrote: »
    Regardless. Keys do feel forced.

    If you personally believe keys are forced, then that is a malfunction in your own head space, I am sorry to say. I've never once felt like I was forced to buy a key in this and only buy them if I feel like I am froggy enough to play around with the boxes.

    Again I will point to the fact this always strikes me as hilarious, because it is, since CoH players would gladly throw their money at the grab bags (same thing mind you just different name) but consider lockboxes of the devil.

    In short, if you feel forced to buy something, it isn't because of the company this is something else deep within that makes you feel like you gotta have a inconsequential.​​
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  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    If lockboxes continue to bring in sales they will keep doing it. Full stop.

    I always found it ironic that CoH players hate lockboxes, but went gaga over CoH grab bags, spending hundreds on those at a time. Never understood this but whatever.

    As someone who only played CoH for a total of about 12 hours before it shut down... just from an outside perspective (granted I too hate lockboxes... but I'll keep my opinion unbiased for this post)

    As I mentioned above the system of Lockboxes plays a psychological game with you instilling the idea that you need keys. You already have the box, and you know what might be inside it, you just need the key to open it, and the game won't ever let you forget about it. You are constantly bombarded with lockboxes as drops.

    Grabbags on the other hand are an all-in-one deal. There are no keys to buy, and the game doesn't throw grabbags at you constantly that you can't open without a separate purchase. You can easily choose to ignore their existence, there's no constant reminder of "I'm still here, open me!" This creates an actual true choice to players.

    When compared, you've got grabbags that have to be purchased to begin with, but create an environment of actual choice, making the players more willing to buy into the system in bulk and then you've got lockboxes that push at players psychologically until they reluctantly buy into the system. Does everyone buy in reluctantly? no, some love lockboxes. But the system still has a psychological affect on people.​​
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  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    raighn wrote: »
    Regardless. Keys do feel forced.

    If you personally believe keys are forced, then that is a malfunction in your own head space, I am sorry to say. I've never once felt like I was forced to buy a key in this and only buy them if I feel like I am froggy enough to play around with the boxes.

    Again I will point to the fact this always strikes me as hilarious, because it is, since CoH players would gladly throw their money at the grab bags (same thing mind you just different name) but consider lockboxes of the devil.

    In short, if you feel forced to buy something, it isn't because of the company this is something else deep within that makes you feel like you gotta have a inconsequential.

    Honestly, did you read my whole post or did you stop after that line?


    and again, the main difference between lockbox and grabbag, lockboxes are dropped in game and constantly remind the player of their existence and that you have to buy a key, grabbags are either dropped in game and freely openable or purchase only and as a result far more friendly to the community in either scenario.​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    Lockboxes are constantly dropped in-game and often leave me with the feeling that I need to discard them after a while to free up the inventory space. I've got samples of just about every lockbox in my bank, in case someone needs one or one of them starts selling well on the AH.

    Other than that, I for one don't feel "forced" to do anything else about them. Sometimes when I've got a spare 100g or so I'll pick up a key, but beyond that no, not so much. Sure, some of the stuff is cool, but the majority of the really cool stuff will be available on the AH sooner or later. (Honestly, the only things I'm really jonesing for at the moment are a black-and-red flying lowrider for Gunrunner, and Drifter Salvage to buy cosmetic stuff from him.)
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