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FC.31.20150919.3 - Batsaw & Live Fixes

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  • voyagersixvoyagersix Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    kaizerin wrote: »
    By introducing slots on the secondaries you are trivializing Vigilante secondaries. They are one of the few things to buy with questionite. You do not want to make them irrelevant.

    Why are people @%^*$^ about obsoleting gear that SHOULD be obsolete? New gear replaces old gear. That's the way of the MMO.

    New gear shouldn't be less enticing than the old gear, or nobody will want it (as was the case before this welcome update).

    If Onslaught gear isn't markedly better than Vigilante gear, people will just get Vigilante gear and ignore Onslaught content. With this update, I finally feel like obtaining Onslaught secondaries. Well done!


    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Kaiserin​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,695 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Exactly, MMOs had been doing that for years now! New Gear which is better than old gear!
    Tier Progress

    I really don't understand your obsession making the new Gear inferior to Vigilante !
    WHY? What;'s the point? You will just waste the whole Onslaught? What's the point of farming tokens for? for another weak Gear?
    Stop trying to being obsessed with Balancing CO and Nerfing EVERYTHING! You ruin everything!

    Let me guess, you people want the onslaught gear to get nerfed to avoid the idea of wasted time to get Vigilante which can be obtained EASILY! Questionite is flooded by EVERYWHERE, but VIllains tokens are not! they are HARD to get!


    DEVs keep it up and ignore the NERF feedbacks! you finally made the Onslaught Gear Appealing!
    The least thing we want is things to get NERFED again because of the Vocal Minority of the forums

    i almost forgot, BUFF Nuclear Shockwave​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies
    Playing since 1 February 2011 90+ Characters (7 ATs, 83 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • thyuberdudethyuberdude Posts: 22 Arc User
    Another Bug, Might have already been reported.

    Strafing run doesn't proc the temporary shield on the Onslaught gloves of the defender.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    The only thing that needs nerfing with the gear is the cost, even with the addition of a mod. It's not worth the 2k kills for the first item and then another 1k for each item after that.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    gradii said:

    draogn said:

    gradii said:

    The defeated debuff is EXTREMELY unnecessary and should be removed ENTIRELY. Non tank characters die at LEAST once every couple minutes, and token gain is already painfully slow for hero tokens at current store prices.

    Slot on secondaries- good work so long as the slot gives the full amount of stats, this gear will finally come close to a purple non-vigilante secondary in worth. (maybe even vigilante)



    If they remove the debuff, they'll need to do something else to discourage spawn camping.
    The debuff is a really stupid way to discourage spawn camping which isn't working one bit.
    It's better then nothing, atleast those camping aren't getting rewarded for wasting their time.

  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    Just curious how much better people think Onslaught Gear should be over Vigilantes? 5%, 10%, 50%, something else? How much better (in % terms) is JG over Legion? If OG is to be better than VG should it follow the same approximate ratio as JG to LG?

    If OG is markedly better than VG, how long should it take to obtain (assuming one character only grinding for it)?

    I always imagined that OG would maybe be a bit better than VG, but that mostly it would be a different mechanism for getting it. Concomitantly, it would also take only somewhat more time to obtain.

    If these secondaries will take up to R9s I predict a nerfing will follow before too long (with the usual nerf complaints).​​
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  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    BUG: PLASMA CANNON
    The animation, since the last patch, has been broken. Instead of pointing in a horizontal line forward now it points towards the ground! It's quite annoying. It worked fine yesterday.
    gradii said:

    draogn said:

    gradii said:

    The defeated debuff is EXTREMELY unnecessary and should be removed ENTIRELY. Non tank characters die at LEAST once every couple minutes, and token gain is already painfully slow for hero tokens at current store prices.

    Slot on secondaries- good work so long as the slot gives the full amount of stats, this gear will finally come close to a purple non-vigilante secondary in worth. (maybe even vigilante)


    If they remove the debuff, they'll need to do something else to discourage spawn camping.

    The debuff is a really stupid way to discourage spawn camping which isn't working one bit.

    The problem with spawn camping is because it's soo hard to actually get villain tokens as a villain. That is because lvl 40 toons will TP/run when on low health then come back when they have full HP. Then you have super tanks which you can't kill, healers etc...oh and BLOCK! Villains can barely kill a lvl 40 that's why they go for low lvls.

    To discourage spawn camping there should be a reason to fight lvl 40s (maybe make token rewards scale with the lvl of the Hero defeated to compensate) as well as deal with the kiting you can do as a hero. Oh and vehicles, they should not be allowed that's just disgusting.

    Basically Villains are extremely strong 1 vs 1 but only against non tanks and ppl who don't run.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    nightr0d said:

    BUG: PLASMA CANNON
    The animation, since the last patch, has been broken. Instead of pointing in a horizontal line forward now it points towards the ground! It's quite annoying. It worked fine yesterday.
    gradii said:

    draogn said:

    gradii said:

    The defeated debuff is EXTREMELY unnecessary and should be removed ENTIRELY. Non tank characters die at LEAST once every couple minutes, and token gain is already painfully slow for hero tokens at current store prices.

    Slot on secondaries- good work so long as the slot gives the full amount of stats, this gear will finally come close to a purple non-vigilante secondary in worth. (maybe even vigilante)



    If they remove the debuff, they'll need to do something else to discourage spawn camping.
    The debuff is a really stupid way to discourage spawn camping which isn't working one bit.
    The problem with spawn camping is because it's soo hard to actually get villain tokens as a villain. That is because lvl 40 toons will TP/run when on low health then come back when they have full HP. Then you have super tanks which you can't kill, healers etc...oh and BLOCK! Villains can barely kill a lvl 40 that's why they go for low lvls.

    To discourage spawn camping there should be a reason to fight lvl 40s (maybe make token rewards scale with the lvl of the Hero defeated to compensate) as well as deal with the kiting you can do as a hero. Oh and vehicles, they should not be allowed that's just disgusting.

    Basically Villains are extremely strong 1 vs 1 but only against non tanks and ppl who don't run.
    That wouldn't do anything for spawn camping, well other then drive more players away from the area/content. Which will only make it even harder for you to get your tokens. Plenty of players spawn camp because they can and think it's funny, removing the only thing discouraging players from doing so would just make the problem worse.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that heroes should never be able to survive against a villain. They should be an easy free kill so you can get those tokens. Heroes need tokens as well, it takes 10,000 tokens, unless you are willing to gamble or pay the outrageous prices on the AH, to get the first villain unlock.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User

    Just curious how much better people think Onslaught Gear should be over Vigilantes? 5%, 10%, 50%, something else? How much better (in % terms) is JG over Legion? If OG is to be better than VG should it follow the same approximate ratio as JG to LG?



    If OG is markedly better than VG, how long should it take to obtain (assuming one character only grinding for it)?



    I always imagined that OG would maybe be a bit better than VG, but that mostly it would be a different mechanism for getting it. Concomitantly, it would also take only somewhat more time to obtain.



    If these secondaries will take up to R9s I predict a nerfing will follow before too long (with the usual nerf complaints).​​

    Considering that OG is actually BoP vs Vigilante which is BoE that's a huge issue. I don't think their power is too much. We need progression and a reason to do the content. The reason all the lairs we have are dead is because there is no reason to do them.

    If new content is not worth doing then nobody will.

    I don't see why Vigilante gear should be better than OG. That thing is ~2 years old? It should have been obsolete 1 year ago. Can't believe that CO has such bad gear progression.
  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 538 Arc User
    4 of the Questionite Travl Powers don't disable properly when activating an Onslaught Villain Device: Hyper Ball, Snowball Roll, Electro Flight, and Mystic Flight. Both flight powers allow for actual flight.


    While the short video was recorded on the live server, this also happens on PTS.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    draogn said:

    nightr0d said:

    BUG: PLASMA CANNON
    The animation, since the last patch, has been broken. Instead of pointing in a horizontal line forward now it points towards the ground! It's quite annoying. It worked fine yesterday.
    gradii said:

    draogn said:

    gradii said:

    The defeated debuff is EXTREMELY unnecessary and should be removed ENTIRELY. Non tank characters die at LEAST once every couple minutes, and token gain is already painfully slow for hero tokens at current store prices.

    Slot on secondaries- good work so long as the slot gives the full amount of stats, this gear will finally come close to a purple non-vigilante secondary in worth. (maybe even vigilante)



    If they remove the debuff, they'll need to do something else to discourage spawn camping.
    The debuff is a really stupid way to discourage spawn camping which isn't working one bit.
    The problem with spawn camping is because it's soo hard to actually get villain tokens as a villain. That is because lvl 40 toons will TP/run when on low health then come back when they have full HP. Then you have super tanks which you can't kill, healers etc...oh and BLOCK! Villains can barely kill a lvl 40 that's why they go for low lvls.

    To discourage spawn camping there should be a reason to fight lvl 40s (maybe make token rewards scale with the lvl of the Hero defeated to compensate) as well as deal with the kiting you can do as a hero. Oh and vehicles, they should not be allowed that's just disgusting.

    Basically Villains are extremely strong 1 vs 1 but only against non tanks and ppl who don't run.
    That wouldn't do anything for spawn camping, well other then drive more players away from the area/content. Which will only make it even harder for you to get your tokens. Plenty of players spawn camp because they can and think it's funny, removing the only thing discouraging players from doing so would just make the problem worse.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that heroes should never be able to survive against a villain. They should be an easy free kill so you can get those tokens. Heroes need tokens as well, it takes 10,000 tokens, unless you are willing to gamble or pay the outrageous prices on the AH, to get the first villain unlock.

    I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that the farming of tokens is completely BS on both sides. SV need to farm low lvls and squishies and Heroes just tag or kite Villains for tokens.

    Villains need to be able to get tokens because the only way to do so is through kills. Maybe they should just add a token over time system for villains the same as how Heroes get them. That will at least not provide any benefit to spawn camping since you can't farm tokens.

    If you are talking about abuse? Then there should be a way to forcibly discard the PVP flag but would not let you fight the SV for about 5-10 min. This way if you get farmed/focused or you accidentally hit a SV you won't get hunted down.

    Vehicles are complete BS since they just stay above and hit you with not problem. You try to focus them then fly up beyond your range and heal, then come back.

    Both Heroes and SV exploit each other because there is nothing to prevent it.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    Not saying that VG should be better than OG. I just want to know how much better OG should be than VG, and then how much effort should be involved in obtaining it.

    Folks always complain how easy the game can be, so I'm not clear on the purpose of gear that makes easy content easier. If there were significantly harder new content I could see a reason.​​
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    Its only bad for those who want to ruin Onslaught by making the rewards undesirable,whether that's their intended goal or not. Road to hell, good intentions, etc.

    Your point makes no logical sense, but yea go ahead and beat that line. It doesn't apply. Again difference between a massive upgrade and a side grade everyone wanted. Funny how the people preaching they just wanted side grades are defending this massive upgrade now. What was that about the road to hell and good intentions you were just muttering?​​
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  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,810 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2015
    Vertical progression is something games with a steady stream of content can get away with. New and better gear means you need new and more difficult content to even it out. This has never happened in Champions. We just get power creep, which is a bad thing.

    I want to see Horizontal progression in champs, meaning all new gear is on par with old gear, but different. The Onslaught gear was going in the right direction with new effects and a different way of dispersing the stats, it just needed a small amount of superstat bonus to make it on par with Vigilante. Adding a fully functional mod slot makes Onslaught gear superior. Sure, this gives incentive to buy it, but without a increase in content difficulty or new content with difficulty to match the new power curve, we're just looking at another round of nerfs later on down the line.

    It's a bad idea.
    mlp-dfacehoof.png​​
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    Kaizerin, you summed up my feelings perfectly. That's why I think being able to slot a R3 (maybe even R4 if it is harder to obtain) mod of any type in OG gear is just fine.​​
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    I haven't yet tested the overall power of Onslaught secondaries now they have enhancement slots, but I am inclined to agree that this may be too much.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Vertical progression is something games with a steady stream of content can get away with. New and better gear means you need new and more difficult content to even it out. This has never happened in Champions. We just get power creep, which is a bad thing.

    I want to see Horizontal progression in champs, meaning all new gear is on par with old gear, but different. The Onslaught gear was going in the right direction with new effects and a different way of dispersing the stats, it just needed a small amount of superstat bonus to make it on par with Vigilante. Adding a fully functional mod slot makes Onslaught gear superior. Sure, this gives incentive to buy it, but without a increase in content difficulty or new content with difficulty to match the new power curve, we're just looking at another round of nerfs later on down the line.

    It's a bad idea.

    Basically this. In essence this onslaught gear upgrade is worth at least five more levels of power on a comparison if you want to compare to other MMOs out there that get level cap increases and new content to boot. We were already the equivalent of level 50 or 55 with Justice Gear, now onslaught gear makes us the equivalent of level 60, yet we are still facing critters that are only level 40 (and were too weak even for level 40).​​
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    kaizerin said:

    Vertical progression is something games with a steady stream of content can get away with. New and better gear means you need new and more difficult content to even it out. This has never happened in Champions. We just get power creep, which is a bad thing.



    I want to see Horizontal progression in champs, meaning all new gear is on par with old gear, but different. The Onslaught gear was going in the right direction with new effects and a different way of dispersing the stats, it just needed a small amount of superstat bonus to make it on par with Vigilante. Adding a fully functional mod slot makes Onslaught gear superior. Sure, this gives incentive to buy it, but without a increase in content difficulty or new content with difficulty to match the new power curve, we're just looking at another round of nerfs later on down the line.



    It's a bad idea.

    mlp-dfacehoof.png​​





    A new round of nerfs is something I would love to avoid.

    Unless there is a high amount of stronger content coming our way, such an increase in power is a bit much. I do like gaining power, but this seems unnecessarily strong, if what Kaizerin and Silver are saying is true. (I'm just imagining the amount of power possible with Justice + OS all modded and it seems too much atm)

    Please consider altering this addition to Onslaught Gear, they should remain inline with current secondaries but ALL Onslaught Secondaries should have some sort of power replacer effect like the secondary offensive ones have.

    ALTERNATIVELY.

    Create a series of power replacer mods which can be purchased from the Onslaught Store using Villain or Guardian Tokens and used SPECIFICALLY for Onslaught Secondaries in addition to the normal secondary gear stat boosts it will provide.

    This will bring them in line with current secondary gear but make them unique as they would be the only secondary gear in game which adds in a power replacer effect using specialized mods.

    Just another idea.


  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    All subjective.

    Uh no, it's not subjective. It's factual. You can look at the evidence in every other MMO. Whenever there is an upgrade to player power there is content of greater power to challenge it, none of which we've received in a long time to warrant these upgrades.
    And besides,if you think its too powerful.. don't use it. Stick with what you have.

    This argument misses the point and is always why it gets laughed out of court. Trying to pretend the problem doesn't exist doesn't remove the fact that the problem exists. This is the same argument people say that climate change doesn't exist.
    If your egos won't take that.. then that's not the game's failing.

    Now this is just being insulting and demonstrates you don't want to bother actually listening to what is being stated and want to argue for the sake of arguing.
    "It's easy now it sucks" is a tired, old, very niche complaint that those making it mistakenly believe is far more commonly-held than it is.

    It's not niche, it's actually wide spread. Many have considered this game to be too easy for the content provided and many more have not shown interest because no new content has been delivered of enough challenge to warrant a return.
    Anything past Heroic is just gravy, so how rich that gravy is is ultimately irrelevant.

    This statement makes no flipping sense and just sounds like you'er grasping at straws. It's already clear you don't understand fundamental mechanics.
    Good rewards encourage putting up with a lot. When Acclaim gear stopped being relevant, PvP more or less died because the supporting numbers who were in it for the gear no longer had reason to put up with the wretched mess of PvP elites. If the rewards are good enough, people will play Onslaught even if they don't enjoy it overmuch.

    No, they do not. Over 5 million cancelled subs in World of Warcraft proves that point to a T when people felt the game was too easy and it lost the major part of the social experience when garrisons took over.
    So please, nerfbats in the incinerator, before you beat poor Onslaught to death in its crib.

    If you understood the basics of the mechanics involved and understood why constant buffing of things and overpowering of the players in a game about being super heroes fighting super villains was wrong, you might actually have a valid point. But you don't, you are championing for a cause that has no footing. This is going to hurt the game more than help it.​​
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  • voyagersixvoyagersix Posts: 232 Arc User
    Legion Gear obsoletes Heroic Gear and makes collecting Silver Recognition tokens pointless. Can we get Legion Gear's extra mod slots removed? We should only have sidegrades otherwise no one will want to do UNITY dailies.

    See how stupid that sounds?​​
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,695 Arc User
    kaizerin wrote: »
    It's a bad idea.
    mlp-dfacehoof.png

    The Pony emote just seals it pig-19.gif​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    As for the spawn camping, the simple solution would be to have the "Fighting Onslaught" buff (or whatever its called, the one that allows an OV to attack you) drop on death. How can they spawn camp that which doesn't have the buff? They can't. Of course there would have to be other fixes to avoid things such as auras drawing you into a fight against an OV. The simple solution to that would be to have auras and such not effect OVs or players fighting the OVs. These solutions would work wonders and would solve all the grieffing that abound from a minority of OV players. Well, maybe not ALL grieffing, but a good amount of it.

    As for the gear and so called power creep. I have a solution to that as well, but no one will like it. Its simple really...we just remove gear from the game and instead have all stats scale with level (this includes defense and offense, crit/crit severity, dodge/avoid, power cost reduction, CDR, etc). Told you you wouldn't like it. But if you look at this solution, this basically normalizes EVERYONE in power at the same level. And it will be easier to balance enemies around gearless heroes than it will be to balance them around randomly geared heroes. But again, no one will like this solution as it would strip a lot of power from everyone. But, it would bring about balance quicker then anything else. So, what about making people want to run things? Simple, devices, unique devices that you can only get from those things (given what they are, devices could be anything). Ultimately this gearless thing would make pvp more balanced to. Thus they can introduce pvp only devices as rewards for pvp. Normal devices would work only in pve and pvp devices only in pvp. Anyways, its a radical though that I doubt anyone would like. But it is one solution.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    gradii said:


    The debuff is a really stupid way to discourage spawn camping which isn't working one bit.

    It's not there to prevent spawn camping. It's there to prevent exploits.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,810 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2015
    Culled some offtopic / inappropriate posts.
    Hey guys, this is a thread for constructive feedback for the PTS update. If you have an issue with edited posts, toss me or another moderator a mail through the arcgames site, this is not the place to discuss it.​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    I don't understand these arguments about trying to avoid a new round of nerfs. We already need that if the current content is to be made challenging for any build.

    The only thing I saw that actually changed is people going from "oh if it's not an upgrade I'm going to ignore it all" to saying "oh now I am going to work for this gear" when the mod slots were added on PTS.
  • notyuunotyuu Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Umm......we already have a costume pieces that is more or less the bat saw, the "Dogz Saw Bat" so....yeah, you might want to give it a slight rethink.

    also, been giving the secondary offence pieces effects a good think over, and there doesn't actually seem to be any effects geared towards tanks or healers, only DPS.

    Slicer gloves: Do 10% of your melee damage as DoT, useless for healers, and most tanks don't hit that hard in melee to make it kick **** (cept the overkill might tanks which have speed issues)

    Sniper gloves: Deals additional damage based on charge/maintain time, no healer benefit, application for tanks is limited due to them not hitting like a truck while ranged.

    Savior gloves: When you gain energy so do allies near you, limited/useless effect, due to builds which are energy heavy usually being more than capable of making their energy back in about 2 seconds.

    Defender Gloves: Generate more threat and gain shield when you attack, uselss for healers, tanks will see some benefit from the threat generation bonus, but the sheild strength relies on the damage of your attack, again making it not that viable on anything other than a DPS.

    Suggestions: Make the sheild on the defender gloves scale off of attack damage or threat generation, whichever is higher, and change the savior gloves from the pointless energy thing to healing allies around you/your heal target whenever you heal yourself/another ally.
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    Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    The only thing I saw that actually changed is people going from "oh if it's not an upgrade I'm going to ignore it all" to saying "oh now I am going to work for this gear" when the mod slots were added on PTS.

    The problem is that changing it from "meh" to "upgrade" means adding 0-20 (depending on the item; tanking gloves are an upgrade right now) stat points. Adding 60+ stat points is way over the top.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    CO needs linear progression not horizontal. That's absurd to even think. What's the point of doing anything if what you get is just different but ultimately the same as the gear you have now.

    Co has no challenge because it does not get content updates. Simple as that. The only way for CO to live on is on new gear, lockboxes, costumes and some gimmick content like the Onslaught one.

    I can't belive people are still talking about "balance" and "too easy" in CO. I've been away for months at a time lately from CO (even half a year) and when I come back, I have no reason to stay logged on.

    Now at least I have something worthwhile to grind (OV gear), it they make it useless I don't care. I just play other games.

    And again, if content is challenged then you an always nerf yourself by using lesser quality gear.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Something needed to be done for Onslaught gear. Because in the state it was released in, it was absolutely worthless. The thing is, it was fine in it's original incarnation as primary gear. But no, we whined, complained, and whined some more until we ended up with worthless secondary gear nobody wanted.

    So now the devs are trying to make it something that people would actually want to grind for. And look, more whining, moaning, and complaining.

    If the devs cave into this, we'll probably end up with gear that's even more worthless than it is now. And the same people will start in with more b****g about how the gear isn't worth the trouble to grind for. But then turn around and complain about any improvements made. So it's an endless cycle that never gets resolved.

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  • theultimaxtheultimax Posts: 55 Arc User
    There is still a bug with a couple of the powers in the game for instance, the Force Cascade power will have Gravitar taunt when ever you use it. The same goes for Mind Break.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Something needed to be done for Onslaught gear. Because in the state it was released in, it was absolutely worthless.

    Actually, it wasn't bad, it was just mostly not an upgrade over existing gear. However, there's an enormous difference between '0 stat points' and '62 stat points' (no-one will use less than R7 mods on something that's otherwise this much effort).
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    Change to the gear is put in the PTS to test which means that this isn't the final form, yet people are pretending this should be the final form and adjusting it would be equivalent to a nerf?

    onion-3.gif

    Back on track:

    1. I like the idea of having a slot on secondary gear. I very much LOVE the idea of being able to customize that with the stats I want to buff. Like, put in a CON mod even if it isn't one of my superstats cuz I want more HP.

    2. Keeping the full value of the mod in the slot on secondary gear seems too generous. It'd probably be fine being 1/2. Yes, I realize Rank 9 mods are the exception and not the norm. The norm is probably Rank 5 (the highest you can get from drops in the game). Rank 5 mods still give +55 points in one stat. That's a HUGE jump compared to regular purple gear. Making it 1/2 would bring it on par.​​
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  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    Something needed to be done for Onslaught gear. Because in the state it was released in, it was absolutely worthless.

    Actually, it wasn't bad, it was just mostly not an upgrade over existing gear. However, there's an enormous difference between '0 stat points' and '62 stat points' (no-one will use less than R7 mods on something that's otherwise this much effort).
    Not picking on you. But it was considered bad enough that the general consensus was O gear wasn't worth the trouble to grind for.

    Also, I think many forumites have lost touch with the average player experience. Especially silver players. Getting your hands on any gear above Rank 5 isn't easy. Especially, the rank 7 - 9 range. Most, players don't have the resources or time to grind up for mods that high. The people who do have ability to get those mods, are already running around with unkillable ultra-dps builds.

    This secondary gear will go a long way to help those of us playing Silver AT's out. Not everyone runs a maxed out, cherry picked, Freeform build. In fact, I'd argue most new players are Silvers using AT's.
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  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    kallethen said:

    Change to the gear is put in the PTS to test which means that this isn't the final form, yet people are pretending this should be the final form and adjusting it would be equivalent to a nerf?



    onion-3.gif



    Back on track:



    1. I like the idea of having a slot on secondary gear. I very much LOVE the idea of being able to customize that with the stats I want to buff. Like, put in a CON mod even if it isn't one of my superstats cuz I want more HP.



    2. Keeping the full value of the mod in the slot on secondary gear seems too generous. It'd probably be fine being 1/2. Yes, I realize Rank 9 mods are the exception and not the norm. The norm is probably Rank 5 (the highest you can get from drops in the game). Rank 5 mods still give +55 points in one stat. That's a HUGE jump compared to regular purple gear. Making it 1/2 would bring it on par.​​

    The gear is perfectly balanced if they keep it BoP. You would have to grind with each toon to get this gear. You can't buy it you have to place the time and effort which is GOOD! This helps with "content" and "nothing to do" issues/complains people have.

    I think it's a great way of providing something Good but making you work for it. You can't get it through G or money you have to spend the time on each toon you have.

    Seems people forget that the gear is BoP and can't be sold/traded/transfered etc... It's basically gear obtained through effort not money/luck.

    I like it. This is how all gear should be like. It should reflect effort and it should be powerful. Who cares that it makes older gear pale in comparison. It should, the gear we have currentlt is YEARS OLD.
  • voyagersixvoyagersix Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    aiqa wrote: »
    I don't understand these arguments about trying to avoid a new round of nerfs. We already need that if the current content is to be made challenging for any build.

    The only thing I saw that actually changed is people going from "oh if it's not an upgrade I'm going to ignore it all" to saying "oh now I am going to work for this gear" when the mod slots were added on PTS.

    Does anyone honestly believe CO's PVE content has ever been challenging? It's a losing argument. Keeping new gear weak because we hope it will make PVE content more difficult is nuts. Why?

    1) No one will want to play to obtain weak gear. Be honest with us, everyone: Before the Onslaught gear gained mod slots, you weren't going to touch it with a ten-foot-pole.

    2) Players can already do any of the PVE content in the game with Heroic gear, and almost all of it with Mercenary blues.

    Are we to eliminate Legion and Justice gear because they're more powerful than what is baseline required? Are we to get rid of all modifications above Rank 5 because they trivialize PVE content? No. These items give players something to collect, something to work toward. They give players a reason to come back, to farm, to keep playing and, ultimately, to keep spending money here.

    Introduce newer, more difficult content. Release more powerful gear. Rinse and repeat until power creep becomes too extreme, then crunch it all and start the process over again. This is how all the big MMOs work.

    kallethen wrote: »
    2. Keeping the full value of the mod in the slot on secondary gear seems too generous. It'd probably be fine being 1/2. Yes, I realize Rank 9 mods are the exception and not the norm. The norm is probably Rank 5 (the highest you can get from drops in the game). Rank 5 mods still give +55 points in one stat. That's a HUGE jump compared to regular purple gear. Making it 1/2 would bring it on par.

    I don't think 1/2 would be good enough to justify getting it. Let's look at the numbers.

    A piece of Vigilante gear will give you +44 to your Primary Super Stat. The most popular tier of modifications to obtain are Rank 7, which provide +62 to a single stat.

    That's only 18 points more. That's hardly game-breaking, but it's definitely better than Vigilante, compelling enough to warrant the grind to collect. If it was only half that, it would be 13 points worse than Vigilante, and we'd be back to square one.​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User

    aiqa said:

    The only thing I saw that actually changed is people going from "oh if it's not an upgrade I'm going to ignore it all" to saying "oh now I am going to work for this gear" when the mod slots were added on PTS.

    The problem is that changing it from "meh" to "upgrade" means adding 0-20 (depending on the item; tanking gloves are an upgrade right now) stat points. Adding 60+ stat points is way over the top.
    I think the value of adding 60 stat points is exaggerated a bit.
    A passive like quarry adds (or is supposed to add)120 stat points, and AoPM adds over 600 stat points. If 60 added points were really that huge a problem those two passives would be gamebreaking.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    The only thing I saw that actually changed is people going from "oh if it's not an upgrade I'm going to ignore it all" to saying "oh now I am going to work for this gear" when the mod slots were added on PTS.
    The problem is that changing it from "meh" to "upgrade" means adding 0-20 (depending on the item; tanking gloves are an upgrade right now) stat points. Adding 60+ stat points is way over the top.


    I think the value of adding 60 stat points is exaggerated a bit.
    A passive like quarry adds (or is supposed to add)120 stat points, and AoPM adds over 600 stat points. If 60 added points were really that huge a problem those two passives would be gamebreaking.

    Those two passives are game breaking, but every time they were attempted to be fixed the people that wanted them fixed would turn around and whine and say they were useless then.​​
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  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,810 Cryptic Developer
    voyagersix wrote: »
    A piece of Vigilante gear will give you +44 to your Primary Super Stat. The most popular tier of modifications to obtain are Rank 7, which provide +62 to a single stat.

    That's only 18 points more. That's hardly game-breaking, but it's definitely better than Vigilante, compelling enough to warrant the grind to collect. If it was only half that, it would be 13 points worse than Vigilante, and we'd be back to square one.

    Take a closer look at the gear. The secondary effects they give (+Health, CDR, etc) are much higher than what Vigilante gives. Thus if they are to get a superstat bonus, it should be adjusted accordingly.​​
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    This mod slot in secondary gear basically makes introducing new content that's playable and fun for everyone really hard. It's a very bad idea...which if not corrected now will end up being corrected later. And later will be much much worse as all the people who acquired this gear will be angry.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    kaizerin wrote: »
    voyagersix wrote: »
    A piece of Vigilante gear will give you +44 to your Primary Super Stat. The most popular tier of modifications to obtain are Rank 7, which provide +62 to a single stat.

    That's only 18 points more. That's hardly game-breaking, but it's definitely better than Vigilante, compelling enough to warrant the grind to collect. If it was only half that, it would be 13 points worse than Vigilante, and we'd be back to square one.

    Take a closer look at the gear. The secondary effects they give (+Health, CDR, etc) are much higher than what Vigilante gives. Thus if they are to get a superstat bonus, it should be adjusted accordingly.

    Yea its' actually 66 points going by raw numbers over our current gear.​​
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  • voyagersixvoyagersix Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    kaizerin wrote: »
    voyagersix wrote: »
    A piece of Vigilante gear will give you +44 to your Primary Super Stat. The most popular tier of modifications to obtain are Rank 7, which provide +62 to a single stat.

    That's only 18 points more. That's hardly game-breaking, but it's definitely better than Vigilante, compelling enough to warrant the grind to collect. If it was only half that, it would be 13 points worse than Vigilante, and we'd be back to square one.

    Take a closer look at the gear. The secondary effects they give (+Health, CDR, etc) are much higher than what Vigilante gives. Thus if they are to get a superstat bonus, it should be adjusted accordingly.

    Hmm. Are they really, though? CDR is so useless now that I sold all my Helmets of Speed. I don't know. Most of the new pieces seem to have 2 points less Defense than Vigilante items. Just about the only two that have significant bonuses are the Onslaught Mask of Efficiency and Onslaught Mask of Speed. CDR is nothing special. Is Cost Discount really that big a deal? What's the diminishing return? What consequences are we really dealing with in having powers cost a little less?

    Let's compare some similar pieces.

    Vigilante's Efficient Eyepiece
    +6.5 Defense (-0.6)
    +46 Cooldown Reduction (-5)
    +93 Cost Discount (-109)
    +44 Primary Super Stat (-18)

    Onslaught Mask of Efficiency
    +7.1 Defense
    +51 Cooldown Reduction
    +202 Cost Discount
    [x] +62 Rank 7 Enhancement (Average user)

    And...

    Vigilante's Hastened Eyepiece
    +338 Maximum Health Points
    +6.5 Defense (-0.6)
    +46 Cooldown Reduction (-106)
    +46 Cost Discount (-156)
    +44 Primary Super Stat (-18)

    Onslaught Mask of Speed
    +0 Maximum Health Points (-338)
    +7.1
    +152 Cooldown Reduction
    +202 Cost Discount
    [x] +62 Rank 7 Enhancement (Average user)

    At first glance, the differences appear extremely negligible, except for that cost discount. Can anyone illustrate a situation where cost discount is gamebreaking? Nothing like CDR used to be. Sure. Dial CDR and CD back a bit. I don't care. They aren't that special.​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    If 66 extra stat point is going to break the game and make it impossible to add new content, the game is already broken beyond repair. There are many powers and mechanics that have a far greater influence on the performance of builds than adding a few more stat points.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator

    Anything past Heroic is just gravy, so how rich that gravy is is ultimately irrelevant.

    No. Especially now, with the power creep becoming more relevant with Onslaught.

    Power creep and unnecessary gear progression has created a huge disparity between builds and Archetypes as well. So much so that it's impossible to balance new content to any sort of standard. And now with Onslaught, there are some players who are unkillable by some villains. Power creep and unnecessary gear progression. And you want to add more powerful gear on top of that so that even more people can become more unkillable and needlessly more powerful for all other kinds of content? For what purpose?

    Turning a blind eye to power creep and unnecessary gear progression and just calling it gravy only serves to make a game that was already difficult to balance even more difficult to balance. I don't think that's a fair trade off just so people with the strongest builds and the best gear can stroke their egos a little more.
    biffsig.jpg
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User

    Unless there is a high amount of stronger content coming our way, such an increase in power is a bit much.

    That's the issues isn't it? How many people get pissed off when we have stuff like Frosty, the Mega-Ds from the anniversary event, Forum Malvanum's Duriclad, or any of the other new content that include ridiculous damage / defense?

    Those bosses are insane because players are capable of being so damn powerful.

    "Also, I think many forumites have lost touch with the average player experience. Especially silver players."

    That is actually the issue with having gear that keeps getting more powerful. There is already a massive difference between the average player and someone with a high end build rocking justice / vigilantees / r7+ mods. Those are the people with tanks that do more damage than the average DPS characters. We end up with new content being made too difficult for most players and they simply opt out. That's why no one wants to do Fire and Ice. Even Gravitar isn't all that popular anymore because it's not AT friendly and requires a minimum level of defense. And Forum Malvanum was never even remotely popular. Hell, every time I run Warlord, it's with most of the same people every time. So that's not done much.

    Who do you think villains were balanced against? The high end builds that are most likely to be on the PTS. If a villain can cleave off half my HP through a rank 3 block, imagine what it's doing to someone that doesn't have justice / r7 / vigilante / invuln / wardicator. And there are players with much more powerful builds than what I have.

    "I think it's a great way of providing something Good but making you work for it. You can't get it through G or money you have to spend the time on each toon you have."

    *Opens up wallet. Buys keys. Gets Onslaught device. Buys Zen. Sells Zen for Q. Chain runs Onslaught device on Q by rolling face over keyboard. ROFLstomps 'heroes' for an hour. Gains boatloads of villain tokens.*

    Yes. Effort.
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