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I understand why we can't create out own villains, but how about this?
thegrandnagus1
Posts: 447 Arc User
First things first, this post is referring specifically to the new "Onslaught" system, described here.
Now, let's make sure we all understand WHY we can't create our own villains: balance. They want the villains to have a limit to how powerful they can be, and the only way they can do that is to only let us control the villains THEY create, rather than make our own custom builds. Custom builds would simply be too unpredictable to ever have a balanced system.
So as a compromise, what about this: instead of letting us create our own custom build, let us create our own appearance and then simply select from one of the existing villain power builds that the devs have approved and created themselves. If this sounds familiar, it is because that is basically how our Nemesis works.
By doing this, it would allow us to create our own visually unique villains to play as, but keep them balanced within the confines of the system that the devs want. Thoughts?
@ladygadfly @crypticarkayne @splosions
Now, let's make sure we all understand WHY we can't create our own villains: balance. They want the villains to have a limit to how powerful they can be, and the only way they can do that is to only let us control the villains THEY create, rather than make our own custom builds. Custom builds would simply be too unpredictable to ever have a balanced system.
So as a compromise, what about this: instead of letting us create our own custom build, let us create our own appearance and then simply select from one of the existing villain power builds that the devs have approved and created themselves. If this sounds familiar, it is because that is basically how our Nemesis works.
By doing this, it would allow us to create our own visually unique villains to play as, but keep them balanced within the confines of the system that the devs want. Thoughts?
@ladygadfly @crypticarkayne @splosions
Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on
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Finally, Champions is technically a game about heroes. Not villains. And Dark Champions, contrary to some misguided notions, is not about villains. It's about the dark heroes, the anti-heroes, the ones that will murder for what they believe is something right.
And if DCUO and City of Villains have proved anything, making consistent villain content that feels villainous is pretty much a veritable impossibility, as the way the model works you feel, at best, a dark hero instead of a villain and if not that you feel like a lackey, not a super villain.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I used the nemesis system as the example because *that* is what I was comparing it to, not archetypes.
This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am *not* talking about creating any Villain mission or storyline content. I am *not* suggesting anything similar to playing a Villain in DCUO or in CoV. My entire idea can be summed up quite simply as: allowing us to design our own "skin" for the Onslaught system.
If you have comments about what I actually suggested, please share them. But please do not create a strawman that has nothing to do with that I am suggesting just so you can disagree with it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Uh, actually it does. Since any discussion about such mechanics will eventually bring up points of creating villain based content. Sorry you don't like counter points to your plans, despite you yourself have shown hostility championing the exact reasons in the past that I put up above as to why not. The major one being first.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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So, your point is that it is easier to do something that is already done, than to do something else? Um, thanks captain obvious. No one said anything to the contrary. I am fully aware that the Onslaught system will launch "as is", and that the idea I am suggesting would have to be something added later. Saying that adding something to it later would require "more work" is blatantly obvious and applies to all game development.
Sorry, but that has nothing to do with that I am suggesting. If someone else wants to make their own suggestions or requests, they have every right to do so. However, this particular thread is about my specific suggestion, not some hypothetical request that someone else may make in the future.
I don't mind counter points to MY suggestion. What I do mind is you trolling this thread with comments about things I didn't suggest at all. Take your strawman someplace else.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Further, I like that we'll be fighting comic-like villains. You know what'll turn me off from engaging with other people's Nemeses? Random costumes. SuperDarkDemonDragonWolfJerk named EvilKiller Dark XX. I also don't want to be fighting Frieza, or Solomon Grundy, or Magneto, or Speed Racer, or Cute Tiny Little Anime Cat Girl. I want to fight supervillains. Supervillains who will likely have voiceovers for better immersion during fights. Not some random silent pile of hit points.
I think we need more variety than 3 villains, but I don't think the answer is letting us use our Nemeses.
Thank you for replying to what I actually suggested. While I do enjoy seeing what villains other people come up with, your point is completely valid. Taste is subjective. Maybe the idea I am suggesting would be better appreciated after this system has been out for a while and people have seen the same villains over and over, and might want to see something new.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yeah, that's why I hope they put out a good amount of new villains because 3 will get stale pretty quick. New villains with new moves, maybe even some "Premium" villains that stay out longer can can cause even more massive destruction would be fun, and new villainous missions as well, probably some exclusive to certain villains.
But they really need to keep pushing this so it'll stay fresh and fun.
Agree completely. And if I read the article correctly, there *will* be more than 3 at launch, you will simply have to unlock them:
So again, if I'm reading that right, it is saying:
But it sounds like more than 3 is already in the system.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Sure, you will sometimes get duds or people being ridiculous, but you will also get really good ones. That is the nature of user generated content. And while some players may not care for seeing another player's nemesis because they think it is unoriginal or whatever, well... you are right Smackwell. It DOES matter to the person who made the Nemesis, and that is pretty cool. And seeing as how the villains can fight other villains, I would prefer to see Nems fighting rather than two Gravitars going at it, or to take down one villain only to see that exact same villain popup a short while later.
It may just be the right time to revisit the Nemesis system's powerset choices, make them more formidable, and whatever powerset you assigned to your nemesis will determine you power choices.
I have to agree here.
Sorry Biff, but I actually like seeing other players Nemesi in the (all too few) Alerts they pop in on. They range from cool to hilarious.
The 'duds' that irritate me the most are the 'generic' Nemesis' that the game generates to fill in for someone who doesn't have a Nemesis created. This happens FAR too often - even if FOUR out of the five people in the group have Nemesi made up.
That said, I do agree the focus should be on official Champions villains first.
That's cool, but in my experience, most confrontations with Nemeses, nobody has batted an eyelash, said a single comment, or had a shred of praise for the Nemesis that came up. I'm not just talking about mine; I've had a few guffaws at mine, but for the most part, I don't see anyone saying anything about the Nemeses.
The problem isn't Nemesis design itself, it's where most people run Nemesis content. In NemCons, we'd comment on each other's nemeses all the time. (Especially when those nemeses were SG in-jokes, which happened A LOT in Sovereign.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Combined with:
This is a feedback issue. They want players to know what's going on, and they don't want players using their costumes to obfuscate anything.
I can think of one easy solution off the top of my head: when you target the villain, the "real" villain(whose powers are being used) is the picture that shows up on their target bar. So if it is someone using the Grond powers, his face would be in the UI target window.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
In the meantime, the other person gets ready.
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They can also ask players to do contest for new villian ideas for onslight see who wins, Like they used to do back then. That can help keep things fresh too.
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But it sounds like more than 3 is already in the system."
I doubt they have more than the 3 to start. They are likely saying you can unlock more because they expect people to take a bit of time to play, giving them time to get more villains ready. I'd guess it will be the next patch after it goes live before we start seeing the unlockable villains.
I don't think the choice was about controling the balance either. As silverspar attempted to point out, it was easier for them to create a special rule become device than to give the players more control in this aspect. It might happen at a much later date once the novilty of the current system has worn off and if the data Cryptic gathers from it leads them to believe it would be worth the investment. Even something like what you suggest would be significantly more time consuming to design and program than the become devices they are giving us. TBH, it's possible that a full fledged Nemesis faction would be easier to implement (functionally) than what your suggesting.
To be perfectly honest, I'd rather see them implement the foundary system into CO before they even consider bringing this suggestion to light. If we can get the foundery, then we can create interest in other players nemeses by actually creating their stories for people to experiance. After that happens, then people will show far more interest in player created Onslaugh nemeses.
Hell, they can tie the foundery into the alert system even by having a rotation of popular 5-man foundery missions on the alert que...
STO took a year to get their foundry working and it goes down at each update.
NW foundry is literally about 90% farms. When they had a farm wipe in October(?) last year, 175 stories were left and zone chat was filled with, "where's the farms"
next day 375, 4 days later 1100+.
same names as before but different authors. Yes I wrote them down so I know which to avoid.
CO files are NOT annotated and as someone found out, we do actually have the front page of the foundry in the files. Until the files are all gone through and identified, we can't get a foundry even if our budget went that far. First it would have to go as far as getting the files done.
welcome to the red headed stepchild of the Cryptic family
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Indeed, though they need to hurry and fix Neverwinter Foundry already. It annoys me that they deleted the lesser known quests. That said, I feel like the main reason why the foundry gets ignored by some people is that there is indeed enough content to make you forget but also the rewards. Personally, aside from having enough content, I dislike how the search for foundry quests work. It's tedious and rather rigid.
Many people have posted ideas on how to better it, what to fix, and how to monetize it, but the devs never reply. At most we get something like "we'll see in the future".
Im tired of waiting for them to do something about it.
Cryptic managed to turn one of their main selling points for this game into something very dull.
And it was the only thing that kept Nevermind any more interesting than a generic fantasy game.
Now, if STO foundry got all NW improvements, this would be epic. It got enough Trekkies in their fanbase to get some nicely written Foundry episodes.
But seeing how STO and NW have probems with their Foundry, I can't really expect it being implemented into CO.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
There is a good one in the NW foundry, the first part makes you think it's an imp farm but it isn't .
Something about Imps in the Library or AH. Once you get past that first annoying bit there's a good story.
The drive out the gold sellers one is brilliant.
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frequency
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and if the RNG hates you, they will turn up a lot. Regardless of what you are doing.
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