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Forever and ever (AD rotating post nerf)



The CD reduction nerf to int and gear is amazing, just wanna say that and leave this here for anyone who cares to watch it.

I must say that AoaC and REC primary are suddenly feeling a lot stronger without actually being buffed themselves.

AD rotation wasn't the only problem that came from cd reduction, before people go crazy getting this much cd reduction in this way sacrifices so much that it isn't getting that much cd reduction for nothing like what we used to have. This is a good thing.
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Comments

  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    YES lets nerf everything which works to make the things which don't seem better! BRILLIANT....

    Wow that was quick...

    Anyway, it's like you think pve is too hard on an inferno with no gear or something.
  • xydaxydaxydaxyda Posts: 817 Arc User
    I'm sorry but....any attempts to bring balance to this game cannot possibly be a bad thing...everyone knows that everything is currently out of whack, at least this shows that the current batch of devs are looking into it. It may be painful for some but these are necessary growing pains if we are to move forward.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    So... the AD rotation will still be a thing. Instead of using Int / CDR mods, you'll use Rec and AoAC? I don't see how that makes the nerf amazing.

    My biggest concern about the Int part of the nerf is what happened to dex. There is no need to take dex as a super stat at all or even have a mod for it for decent crit chance. Basically, the crit change affected the stat for crits to the point where it isn't even needed because getting crit chance is pretty easy without dex.

    Not sold on the Int part of the nerf. Getting so much cdr from gear, yes, because lol 50% on just gear / cdr mods. I kind of like the idea that you need to take certain stats for their benefits. The more you invest, the more powerful the effect and the more you have to sacrifice in other areas. Well, not much sacrificing is needed with how things are balanced.

    Are any of the energy stats all that appealing now? Int will still be nice for the simple fact that its tree isn't icky. Outside of energy hog builds, there was never a need to invest much into any of them.

    This will also be a nerf to MSA for energy, now that I think about it. :\
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  • jessypranksterjessyprankster Posts: 25 Arc User
    I still hope I get a free retcon after the initial nerf :o Though, I'm unsure because nothing is truly free. A few of my builds kind of relied on CDR, but I suppose after careful planning, I'll have them back up in top shape c:
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    Are we turning into a a City of Cooldowns???
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    So... the AD rotation will still be a thing. Instead of using Int / CDR mods, you'll use Rec and AoAC? I don't see how that makes the nerf amazing.

    AD rotation sounds like a big no no and makes everyone cringe like it's some doomed thing that shouldn't happen full stop. However the biggest problem we had with AD rotation was that you could do it without sacrifice. Using rec primary is making yourself worse in almost every way in comparison to strength or int super stat's for example, this change just made it more viable in comparison. I got this with someone with 700 PRE AoAC on me... If a AoAC pure PRE buffer is now a viable thing to increase team efficiency to compare to AoPM then I'm all for that.

    sterga wrote: »
    My biggest concern about the Int part of the nerf is what happened to dex. There is no need to take dex as a super stat at all or even have a mod for it for decent crit chance. Basically, the crit change affected the stat for crits to the point where it isn't even needed because getting crit chance is pretty easy without dex.

    Not sold on the Int part of the nerf. Getting so much cdr from gear, yes, because lol 50% on just gear / cdr mods. I kind of like the idea that you need to take certain stats for their benefits. The more you invest, the more powerful the effect and the more you have to sacrifice in other areas. Well, not much sacrificing is needed with how things are balanced.

    I must say that taking int isn't really a sacrifice in many ways at all. It's one of the top stats even with the changes, I know for one my main new build I made on PTS has around 500 int while my quarry is on 3 stacks. No need to worry about INT no longer being usable. To be honest INT needed to be toned down in some way, as does con (cough diminishing returns cough) but that's another story.
    sterga wrote: »
    Are any of the energy stats all that appealing now? Int will still be nice for the simple fact that its tree isn't icky. Outside of energy hog builds, there was never a need to invest much into any of them.

    Aaaand you just hit the nail on the head with this one, I'm using rec primary super stat to do this with. Wow suddenly rec isn't so bad. If you're talking about how energy works in CO then that's a different matter. Int's tree is nice, it also gives nice energy when used with msa and the cost reduction isn't bad on it. Why should a stat be made a must have for? It's still very nice on many different builds however now it wont be a necessity for every min maxed build.
    sterga wrote: »
    This will also be a nerf to MSA for energy, now that I think about it. :\

    Even if it was a nerf to MSA, MSA is overperforming as stands. However it is not a nerf to it in anyway if you still use conviction seeing as it lasts for 6 seconds. Didn't notice any change in it.


    I suggest you actually go onto the PTS and give some builds a try, play around with different things and go in with an open mind to new things seeming to be better options than some derpy CD thing that you just click whenever it's off cd and it does stuff for you.

    I still hope I get a free retcon after the initial nerf :o Though, I'm unsure because nothing is truly free. A few of my builds kind of relied on CDR, but I suppose after careful planning, I'll have them back up in top shape c:

    Don't worry they've always given out free respecs on big changes like this that may ruin some builds.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Filthy silvers aren't allowed onto the PTS, so I can only speculate and think about possibilities. Mostly disappointed at the thought of how much better a con stacking build will be for me. If I can rip out a dex mod and stick in an int mod to have roughly the same energy return from MSA, I probably won't care.
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    Filthy silvers aren't allowed onto the PTS, so I can only speculate and think about possibilities. Mostly disappointed at the thought of how much better a con stacking build will be for me. If I can rip out a dex mod and stick in an int mod to have roughly the same energy return from MSA, I probably won't care.

    Because con is ridiculous without any DR and with ego surge using it for its advantage...

    And that's too bad, trust me at first I think everyone who looked at it was a bit shocked but in practice it isn't as bad as it may seem. I think people just forgot / never knew what the game was like back in 2009/2010. Power creep has got a stupid point in this game and it seems many people want the power creep to continue.
  • cynicoolcynicool Posts: 160 Arc User
    Yeah, this better come with an Energy Unlock review of some sort, because there aren't enough that make enough of a viable difference to cover the powersets we have available. The fact that MSA is so prevalent kind of pointed that out in the first place, but if we're going to play silly games with our cooldowns, let's do the whole job, huh?​​
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    Did any of you play before this power creep took us to this point? Since when did we expect to have unlimited energy, be unkillable and the only competition in pve is much faster you can kill things with your "theme" build than your mate. If we buffed things any more we'd just be furthering the power creep, the nerfs are needed and it's the problem of cryptic for not doing them earlier. This CD change was meant to come just after the dodge change however G-Crush was moved to NW and it never happened, I and many others have been waiting for this to finally come our way. I don't see the problem, you can PvE fairly easily without any gear on an inferno if you know how to play, it's an action game afterall.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Did any of you play before this power creep took us to this point? Since when did we expect to have unlimited energy, be unkillable...

    Yeah... power levels are out of control now. I wouldn't mind the game going back to how it used to be. At this point if we buff more powers instead of nerf others to bring them back in line, we'll be digging PVE deeper into a hole.​​
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Because con is ridiculous without any DR and with ego surge using it for its advantage...

    It is. I think about that when I see Juggy tanks pulling high end dps out of their behinds. And then I think about how it would be so much easier just to make a build like that... But I can't because it makes me feel dirty.

    I know there's power creep out the wazoo, but if Int ends up like Dex, it'll make me sad.

    With 40 dex and heroics with r5 mods, I can get 29% crit chance on a str / con / int build
    With 400 dex on a dex pss w/combat training + guardicator build I get 37% crit chance. With Justice gear. All that investment in THE crit stat for all of 8% crit chance. I mean, damn, that's poopy.

    I'm not concerned that someone with 10 Int can't have 50% cdr. But if I stat dump Int, shouldn't it be worthwhile?
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  • purin1purin1 Posts: 433 Arc User
    sterga wrote: »
    I'm not concerned that someone with 10 Int can't have 50% cdr. But if I stat dump Int, shouldn't it be worthwhile?

    Yeah, and it still will be, because INT has so many perks other than just cooldown reduction. Nerfing one thing out of its many extremely valuable qualities won't make the stat useless.​​
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    The nerf looks a little excessive to me, but if it's kept like this I can live with it. But AD/AO rotation still needs to be addressed separately.

    There will still be AD and AO rotation as long as the shared cooldown is less than half of the individual cooldown, now it's just with some downtime between them. And for near permanent AO you now need 3 powers in stead of 2, and the only thing that is stopping you from doing the same for AD's is the lack of well performing AD options with a 15 seconds duration.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    I remember the first time I got an AD cooldown under 60s, and it seemed really impressive and difficult to do. On Alert gear is amazingly better than anything we had back at launch.​​
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    It'll be just like the dodge change. It'll be just like the thing I kept saying when this topic came up over the years:

    Now instead of everyone having stupid short cooldowns as a standard part of their build, it will be something you have to build for. You'll still be able to do the things you can do now, but you will have to specifically build for them rather than just having them available in addition to what you're actually building for. You know, like how you can still have a crazy amount of dodge, if you build for it.

    The people freaking out about this will get over it. After all, a certain someone claimed the game would be unplayably difficult after the dodge nerf.... and yet here they are, still playing.... still claiming the next thing will make the game uplayable...and probably the next one too.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    sterga wrote: »
    So... the AD rotation will still be a thing. Instead of using Int / CDR mods, you'll use Rec and AoAC? I don't see how that makes the nerf amazing.

    My biggest concern about the Int part of the nerf is what happened to dex. There is no need to take dex as a super stat at all or even have a mod for it for decent crit chance. Basically, the crit change affected the stat for crits to the point where it isn't even needed because getting crit chance is pretty easy without dex.

    Yes, getting decent crit chance is easy without dex. However, getting the over 50% crit chance I'm rocking.... aka, I wanted crazy amount of crit% and I had to build for it, sacrificing other things along the way. And oh look, now the cooldown nerf is going to make me not even have to mention that I could have gone for a con/ego surge build instead! :smiley:

    Just like it will be easy to get decent cooldown chance after the nerf without Int... but if you want <insert crazy amount here>... you'll have to build for it. Some people will sacrifice their shiny defensive/offensive passives, others will stack int, and the rest of us will just keep bribing the devs with food.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Well I basically just posted the same thing twice so let's also go for a pointless triple post! :blush:


    To all the folks talking about MSA, and energy unlocks, and etc...



    Have any of you considered that maybe you were never intended to have an endless flow of energy to begin with? That maybe, energy unlocks were meant to be an optional part of a build, and not required? That some power sets intentionally don't have one?

    Did you know that it doesn't hurt when you use your energy builder? :smile:
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User

    Don't try to force your masochistic idea of 'fun' on everyone else.

    Like... really? How someone can think a game with infinite respawns 20 feet away from the fight could ever be masochistic. The things going on in your imagination must be wild man...

    Don't worry, after you're done being all melodramatic you can start thinking of how many new types of builds will suddenly be worth looking into after this, mister Pro-Builder :wink:
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    Did you know that it doesn't hurt when you use your energy builder? :smile:

    What is this energy builder you speak of? Oh you mean the "whoops I accidentally toggled this on and now my smoke grenade debuff is gone" thing?

    MSA is fine anyway, it lasts for 6 seconds, conviction is like a 5 second CD without really putting much effort into CD reduction at all. In other words take conviction as per usual and ones energy will still be perfectly fine and just as endlessly stupid. :)
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    Well I basically just posted the same thing twice so let's also go for a pointless triple post! :blush:

    To all the folks talking about MSA, and energy unlocks, and etc...

    Have any of you considered that maybe you were never intended to have an endless flow of energy to begin with? That maybe, energy unlocks were meant to be an optional part of a build, and not required? That some power sets intentionally don't have one?

    Did you know that it doesn't hurt when you use your energy builder? :smile:

    Actually in a real way it DOES hurt to use your energy builder. There are many situations where if you cannot keep the flow of damage near constant and intense then you cannot succeed. Forum Malvanum which is the big thing in rotation right now is a great example of this. You need constant withering AoE. If you are using your EB all the time then forget it because that will NEVER deal worthwhile damage.

    Moreover any Tank that really wants to hold Aggro has got to be dishing out stupid amounts of DPS in addition to being tough as nails or some random DPS'er will just walk over and pull aggro and get slaughtered.

    So yeah... Not buying your argument as valid really. I mean sure they were not designed with an EU intentionally but the mechanics of the game have moved far beyond what they were when that decision was made.


    I do not mind the CD reduction for gear but Int should have been left alone in this regard. It is not the end of the world but it does hurt anyone who has not ground up for said Gear to make up for what they are about to loose and why make any stat weaker? Stats should be more defining than gear for every little bit you squeeze out of them.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    So yeah... Not buying your argument as valid really. I mean sure they were not designed with an EU intentionally but the mechanics of the game have moved far beyond what they were when that decision was made.

    So you're telling me we should remove energy builders from the game to fit the current broken power creeped meta and instead just level all the energy unlocks up so they are all as good as msa?
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    I do not mind the CD reduction for gear but Int should have been left alone in this regard. It is not the end of the world but it does hurt anyone who has not ground up for said Gear to make up for what they are about to loose and why make any stat weaker? Stats should be more defining than gear for every little bit you squeeze out of them.

    The problem is that if you kept int how it is on live but nerfed CD gear you would totally over power int. I know you guys keep arguing that nerfing something doesn't make something else better, but it kinda does and in this case it certainly does. It seems that the % itself has DR so you end up with two layers of DR. I can get to 30 seconds with recovery and AOAC now however I don't think I'd be able to get 15 second AD's on live because of this second layer of DR.

    By leaving int how it is on live but making CD reduction on utility worse you'd make it so people who don't run int will have super long CD's meaning pretty much everyone will run int, if that makes sense. Take CON as an example, no reason not to have it really so almost everyone takes it especially if they want to min max. There is no downside and no DR on it with a bunch of powers that a boosted by it.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    Did any of you play before this power creep took us to this point? Since when did we expect to have unlimited energy, be unkillable and the only competition in pve is much faster you can kill things with your "theme" build than your mate. If we buffed things any more we'd just be furthering the power creep, the nerfs are needed and it's the problem of cryptic for not doing them earlier. This CD change was meant to come just after the dodge change however G-Crush was moved to NW and it never happened, I and many others have been waiting for this to finally come our way. I don't see the problem, you can PvE fairly easily without any gear on an inferno if you know how to play, it's an action game afterall.

    Yes I did and the problem was the same then as now. Stupid enemies. having weak players to match might make it seem ok but its a false choice.

    I have good news for you Gradii. The cooldown nerf will not make players weak. Sure, it will make them weaker than they are now, but we have a long, long, long, long, looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before we're gonna be weak.

    That's what people seem to be missing... it's not just the ridiculous cooldown reduction that's making us too strong... it's a few things. I mean geez, if you're freaking out after the first few, it's gonna get ugly when we actually start approaching a balanced state.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Well I basically just posted the same thing twice so let's also go for a pointless triple post! :blush:

    To all the folks talking about MSA, and energy unlocks, and etc...

    Have any of you considered that maybe you were never intended to have an endless flow of energy to begin with? That maybe, energy unlocks were meant to be an optional part of a build, and not required? That some power sets intentionally don't have one?

    Did you know that it doesn't hurt when you use your energy builder? :smile:

    Actually in a real way it DOES hurt to use your energy builder. There are many situations where if you cannot keep the flow of damage near constant and intense then you cannot succeed. Forum Malvanum which is the big thing in rotation right now is a great example of this. You need constant withering AoE. If you are using your EB all the time then forget it because that will NEVER deal worthwhile damage.

    Moreover any Tank that really wants to hold Aggro has got to be dishing out stupid amounts of DPS in addition to being tough as nails or some random DPS'er will just walk over and pull aggro and get slaughtered.

    So yeah... Not buying your argument as valid really. I mean sure they were not designed with an EU intentionally but the mechanics of the game have moved far beyond what they were when that decision was made.


    I do not mind the CD reduction for gear but Int should have been left alone in this regard. It is not the end of the world but it does hurt anyone who has not ground up for said Gear to make up for what they are about to loose and why make any stat weaker? Stats should be more defining than gear for every little bit you squeeze out of them.

    Who said you were going to be using your EB all the time? I have builds that don't use MSA, I have builds that don't use an energy unlock and I'm nowhere near using it all the time. Not even remotely close.


    That's the thing... I think people have gotten so used to these easy infinite-energy setups that they forgot there's other ways to get things done... and truly sadly they convinced themselves that without these infinite-energy setups that they'll immediately be thrust into a drought. Just look at your own statement: I said "use energy builder" and your brain immediately shot to "Use it constantly".


    As IMP has pointed out, the infinite energy setup isn't even going away.



    And no, the mechanics of the game haven't moved beyond what they were when that decision was made. People have just gotten used to a bunch of crutches. You don't actually need the current super tank builds, they're heavily excessive of what you actually need, by miles. People have just gotten used to them, and the sloppy playstyle that they enable.

    Again, I'll reference your own statement: You think one balance adjustment and suddenly tanks aren't going to able to tank anymore, DPS will just get slaughtered all the time, and everything will be unbeatable. It's just not true. Back in the day before On-Alert tanks managed to tank, DPS managed to not constantly get slaughtered, and we spammed our powers all over the place only using energy builders to top ourselves up now and then. The apocalypse is only in your head. The only thing that changed regarding the NPCs youre going to be fighting during On Alert was a small global buff to them.... one that was so small that a lot of people question if it was ever actually implemented. So no, the mechanics of the game haven't moved far past what they were... players just got hugely more powerful while NPCs remained largely the same.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    The only thing that goes in a hole from not bringing all powers in line is variation in what we see being used.

    If you absolutely need a toon to sacrifice damage and general survivability with AoAC and high PRE to get this result than its as it should be!

    I'm fine with some exploits being squashed as long as it doesn't end up turning into things being nerfed to the point that gameplay is as slow as NWO and god forbid STO.​​
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I'm fine with some exploits being squashed as long as it doesn't end up turning into things being nerfed to the point that gameplay is as slow as NWO and god forbid STO.​​

    I'm pretty sure that changes such as this recent one will make the game alot faster pace and more on edge atleast in PvP, PvE has a way to go yet before you really have to be worried about things suddenly catching you off guard.

    I didn't make this video to say this is a bad thing you can still rotate them like this, by making it I was saying: Look you can still do this AD rotation thing but it's as it should be (with heavy sacrifice) now. :p
  • jessypranksterjessyprankster Posts: 25 Arc User
    This is somewhat similar to the Dodge Nerf. I remember specifically when technically, everyone could literally tank and survive with 60-70% Dodge and Avoidance. The only healing powers you needed were Conviction and Bountiful Chi Resurgence. Once they nerfed that, people then went onto figuring out new things. And look at that! Cooldown Reduction suddenly became viable! Now that CDR is being nerfed, I'm SURE someone is bound to find something else that works well in both ways.

    That includes both PvE/PvP Material. However, PvE is the least of my concerns since you can technically beat every enemy with careful game play and planning. As for PvP on the other hand, people are probably going to be forced out of their comfort zones for once instead of going straight for the usual metas. Hopefully I'll get to see some newer builds out there instead of the usual. (*Cough* AoPM/Rimefire Burst/Ebon Ruin/Force Geyser *Cough* :3)

    Its only a matter of patience honestly.
    "When in doubt, spam Ebon Ruin! It works! 90% of the time!
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,348 Arc User
    All I want to say is that I would like to see powers, attributes, mechanics getting a buff rather then a nerf for a change.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    PvP being allowed to have any influence on game balance? Flat out no.

    Look at poor Crowd-Control, sitting there despondent in her corner, a shattered ruin of her former self due to the abuses PvPers cried and whined and had forced upon her.

    Do you really want anything else to be a victim of their niche desires?

    Because the rest of us do not.

    Ah, so that's the angle you're trying now. No, these changes are not related to PvP. Nothing is related to PvP, and nothing has been related to PvP for a very long time now.

    You can actually make a fairly decent control build if you build for it. Heck I have a build that relies almost entirely on stuns to keep it alive and does so very successfully.... I imagine if I actually built it even more heavily for strong crowd control it'd be stupidly effective. I'm sure if you'd like a good example IMP has a video laying around somewhere.

    Also, you're very melodramatic. I'm half tempted to believe you're trying to write poetry or Shakespearean theater. The only thing you've convinced me of is that you are actually scared that you're gonna get rekt by npcs after this change.
  • KagamiTheMagicalCatGerlKagamiTheMagicalCatGerl Posts: 357 Arc User
    guyhumual wrote: »
    All I want to say is that I would like to see powers, attributes, mechanics getting a buff rather then a nerf for a change.

    Some powers could certainly use it.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    Look at poor Crowd-Control, sitting there despondent in her corner, a shattered ruin of her former self due to the abuses PvPers cried and whined and had forced upon her.

    How spiteful... This change is amazing for PvP as it brings us verity of builds however it's been needed for PvE for years. I can't believe people still run nemcon as things stand, back when it was first released the power creep pretty much hadn't kicked in yet at all, just think how much stronger everyone is now. This change is needed for PvE, and is being implemented for it.

    CC is still amazing, ego sleep would be super useful if general PvE was harder. Try the challenge of playing a super nerfed build wearing no gear and you'll find out how useful CC really is still. You can rotate CC pretty nicely. If you go all INT as primary with PRE secondary or have a bunch into PRE then you can end up getting some insane stun numbers times which again if we weren't so tanky and amazing would come in handy for sure. On things like jack fool mask farming that I used to do years ago I would aoe ego sleep all the mobs so I don't have to kill a single one other than jack fool himself.

    I too would like to see certain things buffed, however I would like them to see buffed to what these are being buffed down to. CD reduction is still better than a bunch of things, if you're gonna buff something in a game with such power creep as CO you will want to nerf the things causing certain things to overpowered first IE CD reduction. Now we have this you can truly look at buffing certain powers if they really wanted to because CD reduction isn't breaking anythings CD's.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    "Power creep" is nonexistent in PvE content. It only matters in PvP -and see above for how much PvP matters in the grand scheme of the game. (Spoiler alert: It doesn't. Make your peace with that and let it go.)

    Seems legit.

    Keep telling yourself that while you stand in a room of enemy's on elite in a 5 man lair and you're taking no damage while laughing in their faces.

    Anyway this has seemed to have become desperate and fairly personal attacks at each other... But am I right in thinking you're saying you don't like this nerf because you are convinced it is somewhat due to PvP because PvE will never need any nerfs done due to there not being any power creep apparently?
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    text

    Well it seems we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I can't see us ever finding a meeting point in our opinions on this matter.

    I will just like to point out that in comic books usually there aren't as high of a number of super hero's as we have in CO where being super is actually rather normal. That's why (in game lore terms) my characters PvP, so we can fight for fame and glory through out smarting the opponent and putting on a good show for the viewers while being on TV. Sure super hero's are supposed to feel overpowered but they are supposed to also be smart and un-derpy, a super powers in the hands of an idiot will only lead to disaster.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    Power creep seems more applicable to PvE than to PvP IMO.

    In PvP both sides in any combat have access to to all of the most potent options. In PvE this is much less the case. Some outlying instances of encounters being modified to challenge high end free form player character builds might exist but overall the NPCs in game do not get buffed to match the potential of PCs.

    Again, this is my opinion. My personal ego trip does not extend to claiming to speak for, "the rest of us," rather than myself.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Point, missing it. Simply stating that there has never been an instance of "PVP balance" that did not inflict dire and undesirable consequences on PvE.
    Cryptic, for all intents and purposes, does not do "PVP balance"; I think there has been one example since 2009 of an actual PvP balance problem being fixed. Cryptic nerfs when PvE is out of whack -- for example, vehicle beam spam got nerfed because people were breaking the anniversary event. The only reason things ever look like 'PvP nerfs' is because PvPers are aware of all the broken stuff and abuse it.​​
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    So yeah... Not buying your argument as valid really. I mean sure they were not designed with an EU intentionally but the mechanics of the game have moved far beyond what they were when that decision was made.

    So you're telling me we should remove energy builders from the game to fit the current broken power creeped meta and instead just level all the energy unlocks up so they are all as good as msa?

    Hello Mr. Strawman. That is all I need to say to that.

    As for Con what Con does is provide HP... So what? It does not really add much else on its own.

    Breaking one thing to fix another is not really that wise. Fixing the actual problem is more useful. That is what is meant by nerfing one thing does not really make another better because all it really does is make the better option worse. I, for one, do feel that if you are stating towards a particular goal then you should be able to reasonably achieve it.
    Who said you were going to be using your EB all the time? I have builds that don't use MSA, I have builds that don't use an energy unlock and I'm nowhere near using it all the time. Not even remotely close.

    That's the thing... I think people have gotten so used to these easy infinite-energy setups that they forgot there's other ways to get things done... and truly sadly they convinced themselves that without these infinite-energy setups that they'll immediately be thrust into a drought. Just look at your own statement: I said "use energy builder" and your brain immediately shot to "Use it constantly".

    And no, the mechanics of the game haven't moved beyond what they were when that decision was made. People have just gotten used to a bunch of crutches. You don't actually need the current super tank builds, they're heavily excessive of what you actually need, by miles. People have just gotten used to them, and the sloppy playstyle that they enable.

    Again, I'll reference your own statement: You think one balance adjustment and suddenly tanks aren't going to able to tank anymore, DPS will just get slaughtered all the time, and everything will be unbeatable. It's just not true. Back in the day before On-Alert tanks managed to tank, DPS managed to not constantly get slaughtered, and we spammed our powers all over the place only using energy builders to top ourselves up now and then. The apocalypse is only in your head. The only thing that changed regarding the NPCs youre going to be fighting during On Alert was a small global buff to them.... one that was so small that a lot of people question if it was ever actually implemented. So no, the mechanics of the game haven't moved far past what they were... players just got hugely more powerful while NPCs remained largely the same.

    Your own statements prove that you do not really realize that things have changed which is a problem. DPS before On Alert was nowhere near as high as it is now. Before that point it was not that hard to keep aggro as a Tank, for instance, but now it is so very easy to pull it away with the levels of DPS you can pump out that a real dedicated Tank is a thing of the past because what you need is a hybrid.

    Hard Truth: For some of the content and for anyone pretending to be a dedicated tank these days, if you hit with your energy builder more than three times between your non-stop spamming of bigger attacks then you are not really cutting it.

    Keep in mind, I said it was not going to be the end of the world but it is not going to help.

    Also, I am not a fan of monsters or enemies that are just stupid tough (taking it wise) or stupid deadly without a good reason. A boss being a boss simply because they take ten minutes to kill is not exciting. NPC's and players should be a lot more on the level and trash mobs that have no right being that deadly SHOULD be push overs. As an example of a boss fight that I find pretty wild and interesting in CO I give you the Cybermind battle. You have to keep on your toes for that one and there is good reason he is so strong considering he is manipulating the world around him and not there in any physical way.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    I'm pretty sure that changes such as this recent one will make the game alot faster pace and more on edge atleast in PvP, PvE has a way to go yet before you really have to be worried about things suddenly catching you off guard.

    I didn't make this video to say this is a bad thing you can still rotate them like this, by making it I was saying: Look you can still do this AD rotation thing but it's as it should be (with heavy sacrifice) now. :p

    The thing is your video proves that they are changing the CD on things for no good result. You can still do the one major thing they were seeking to end so obviously they changed the wrong thing to try to prevent it.

    Yes, you have to take a bit of a sacrifice but if your goal is to prevent the endless rotation of AD's then you failed.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    And it wasn't PvPers crying over CC that got it ruined (other than stuns)?
    Actually, it was probably NPC perma-holding PCs. The problem with crowd control has always been that it affects PCs as well as it affects henchmen.​, combined with "why CC it when I can kill it in less time than it takes to CC it".​​
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Completely objective opinion there, Biff.

    Being frank, all I recall of the "old days" when I started was fewer valid powers. If we're going to be all Hipster about it, I remember 2GM before it was a worthwhile power.

    Making things harder for the tiny niche tryhard set to prove their superiority against is not worth peeving off the larger playerbase who want to play a superhero game and feel like big damned heroes, not sidekicks trying to use their powers intermittently to slap-fight supervillains into submission.

    I thought I'd never have to have this argument again, honestly.

    If you want the game harder,use the difficulty slider.If that's not enough, gimp yourself.

    Don't try to force your masochistic idea of 'fun' on everyone else.

    Wait, me, tryhard? I don't try at all, and all my builds are middling and average. But even with my spectacularly average builds, I can play most of the game while paying more attention to the TV than the what's going on around my hero. It's not masochism that makes me want a game that's harder. It's the fact that collecting wheat and clicking cows is more engaging than most of the PVE content.
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Actually in a real way it DOES hurt to use your energy builder. There are many situations where if you cannot keep the flow of damage near constant and intense then you cannot succeed. Forum Malvanum which is the big thing in rotation right now is a great example of this. You need constant withering AoE. If you are using your EB all the time then forget it because that will NEVER deal worthwhile damage.

    Well that's the rub, isn't it? Forum Malvanum is a symptom of the disease. In this case, the disease being power creep. Forum Malvanum was designed the way it was because most of the people who bothered to test it were the types of people who squeeze the most out of their builds as they can, and thought it was too easy. They wanted a challenge, and they got it. Now we've got this piece of content that many people pass on because "there's no way to win it."

    I'm definitely for reining in hero power, but obviously things like Forum Malvanum would have to be rebalanced.
    "Power creep" is nonexistent in PvE content. It only matters in PvP -and see above for how much PvP matters in the grand scheme of the game. (Spoiler alert: It doesn't. Make your peace with that and let it go.)

    That's absolutely false. Power creep has caused an even larger disparity in builds between Archetypes, average Freeforms, and super-optimized Freeforms. Having such a huge disparity between builds makes all PVE content hard to balance, and makes it impossible to please everyone. Any given piece of content will get the "It's too hard" and the "It's not challenging enough" responses.

    Superman, Hulk, Wolverine, Deadpool, etc.

    I fail to see the problem. That you do makesme wonder if you may not get that people play superhero games to feel like superheroes.

    Could you come up with a list of characters that are even morebland because they're so powerful? :p

    Comic books and video games can't all be written the same way. Heck, even in the games they make about these characters, if you stand around doing nothing, you will die. So bad example, I say.​​
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited August 2015
    So you're in favor of buffing everything up so that "average" heroes are more on par with the super-builds, but then this way, the entire game is easier for everyone because normal dudes shouldn't pose a problem to a superhero? (Sorry if that sounds like a strawman argument, it's just what I'm picking up from your posts.) Forget just normal dudes, even supervillains will be a cakewalk. I remember the days when I actually had to prepare before fighting Medusa (or was in Mindslayer, in the PSI building?) because she actually was somewhat threatening when you fought her at-level. Nowadays I can already go in there, sock her one in the face, and be done with it. You want that to be even easier?

    What about the rest of the game? If we buff everything up so that any pug can beat all of Forum Malvanum's waves, then we'll be at a point where Gravitar will be a pushover, and people will actually run Lemurian Invasion because they'll take out the big guy before the first wave of exocets shows up.

    When it comes to MMOs, you can't just reference the source material or the genre. It's apples and oranges compared to the problems the game is facing when it comes to difficulty. It's better to rein in the power creep to lower power levels than it is to bring everything up to the top and have to rebalance everything to meet with the new standard. No, going back to the previously-established standard would be easier and would make more sense.

    And no, the "most incompetent character possible" shouldn't be able to beat any content. Why would you even want that?​​
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  • xrazamaxxrazamax Posts: 979 Arc User
    In general terms, too much content is easy, there are only a few things that are truly challenging. CDR letting you use Powers with 20 second cool downs every 8 seconds, and conviction on a 3 second CD are part of the reason why.

    Just like the Dodge nerf, everything will be okay in the end though. It will be just fine.
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